Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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NRao
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby NRao » 25 Mar 2014 19:36

Mi-17 ops (the most effective of the CAS platforms) were stopped after hit


Not sure, but, was this helo equipped to defend itself?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby nikhil_p » 25 Mar 2014 20:05

NRao wrote:
Mi-17 ops (the most effective of the CAS platforms) were stopped after hit


Not sure, but, was this helo equipped to defend itself?


From what I know, they did have flares/ chaff dispensers retro fitted. However, in the rarified mountain air, Not sure if the Helo would have enough time to react - though I am sure the pilots will try an evasive manouver. Also the Distance is short which makes it all the more difficult for a lumbering chopper like the MI17 to react.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kancha » 25 Mar 2014 20:26

IIRC the one that went down was the only one without a self protection suite flying in the area

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 26 Mar 2014 02:56

IAF stopped the flow of men and material (Muntho Dhalo) and even eliminated need for assault in some cases, Arty assisted direct assaults. Both served in their own way.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2014 03:31

Aditya_V wrote:Manpads meantt the Pakis gamed IAf role, but thought like the soviets in Aafganistan, IAF cannot make accurate strikes in the Mountains, plus they thought thier Ghauri would scare India, ony during the conflict they found out it does not work.



No they took comfort in the old Swaran Singh- Zulfie Bhutto agreement to not fly 150 kms near LOC. Some folks had waved that at ABV govt.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 29 Mar 2014 17:03

Dunford: US Will Not Give Pakistan MRAPs From Afghanistan
“USFOR-A does not provide or intend to provide any such equipment, including MRAPs, from Afghanistan to Pakistan,” the statement says.

When asked about the statement by Military Times, a spokeswoman for the Washington Post said the newspaper stands by its story.

“We reported accurately on March 17 that discussions about a possible equipment transfer to Pakistan had been going on for months and that no final decisions had been made,” the spokeswoman said in an email. “We have taken note of the March 27 statement from US Forces Afghanistan.”

The story caused more strain on the US military’s relationship with Afghan President Hamid Karzai, whose spokesman said Afghanistan would oppose any move to give excess MRAPs to Pakistan.

“Afghan security forces need this type of equipment and as a strategic partner, the US needs to consult with Afghanistan before making such a decision,” Emal Faizi told Voice of America for a March 18 story.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby NRao » 29 Mar 2014 18:56

A'stan is more assertive than India? : roll :

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 02 Apr 2014 09:49

X Posted from the “Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Jan 04, 2014” thread.

Jhujar wrote:Iran asks Pakistan to transfer border security to it
Aaj Naa Chorrenge Tumko Poaqeli: Kamsin Like Angela Jolie: Buddhe Doc Ki khyali Saheli

TEHRAN: A prominent lawmaker demanded Pakistan to transfer security control over its shared borders with Iran to the Islamic Republic over “Islamabad’s failure in several cases to stop operations of terrorist groups which take shelter in Pakistan’s territories after attacking Iran”.The Islamic Republic of Iran believes that since Pakistan is not capable enough of securing its common borders with Iran, it should entrust this arduous task to Iran,” member of the parliament’s National Security and Foreign Policy Commission Evaz Heidarpour said. The remarks of the Iranian lawmaker come after the Iranian security guards were kidnapped by militant group from about 15 km inside of Iranian territory and their security was unable to prevent the kidnapping or apprehend them.He explained that the volatile situation along the Iran-Pakistan common border could open a Pandora’s box, and said, “Tehran has proposed that Islamabad hand over to Iran the full responsibility of ensuring security along the border, but Pakistan has not yet given a response in that regard.” :mrgreen: Another prominent Iranian legislator asked the Pakistani government to take stern action to set free the Iranian border guards who were abducted by Jeish Al-Adl terrorist group in early February and one of whom was killed last week. “Pakistani government is responsible for the safety of the abducted Iranian border guards,” rapporteur of the parliament’s National Security and Foreign Policy Commission Seyed Hossein Naqavi Hosseini said on Sunday.


If the military forces of” Kaafir” “Dhimmi” “Great Satan” America and the security forces of Sunni Mohammadden Afghanistan can operate openly on the soil of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, than surely security forces of Shia Mohammadden Iran can operate on the soil of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan :

………………. When we reached Miranshah, it seemed to be a different land. ………………….. I saw vehicles that belonged to the Afghan army, Afghan police and NATO forces but such vehicles would pass by the Pakistani military checkpoints without being checked or stopped. Common people were thoroughly searched ………………………


Above quote on US and Afghan forces operating unchallenged on the territory of the Islamic republic of Pakistan taken from the Daily Times article posted on this page by S. Sridhar:

SSridhar wrote:My Trip to North Waziristan - Part I, DT Op-ed


Protection of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s frontiers in the style of the uniformed Jihadi’s of the military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan :lol: .



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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby uddu » 12 Apr 2014 08:02



A good response to it can be the deployment of Brahmos to Vietnam and other countries in the South east asia which has territorial disputes with China.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23891 » 12 Apr 2014 10:08

Looking at this development, we need to focus on cruise missile defence system on our capital ships and of course we need next gen naval brhamos of 500 km plus range to deny any paki ship to venture out of it's ports.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kancha » 12 Apr 2014 17:33

uddu wrote:


A good response to it can be the deployment of Brahmos to Vietnam and other countries in the South east asia which has territorial disputes with China.


In case Brahmos sales require a Russian consent, Prithvi as a system should be ripe for export, with own orders already likely to have been fulfilled ... heck, wouldn't hurt to tfr some from existing stock as well.
But in the end, it just boils down to political will, doesn't it?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 12 Apr 2014 19:29

Pakistan to buy six submarines from China: Russian media

some experts say that the submarines will be S20s, the export version of the Type 041. The only difference between the Type 041 and the S20 is that the latter does not have the former’s air-independent propulsion system.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby jamwal » 13 Apr 2014 00:19

How'll they pay for it ? Cede more PoK land to China ?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby ashish raval » 13 Apr 2014 03:44

^^ the question is will Indian politician have guts to take this to China or at least export missiles to Vietnam amd Taiwan in lieu :(

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 13 Apr 2014 08:06

maybe somethings will change after 16th may :D

fingers crossed

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Apr 2014 08:45

No way, after 10 years, our miltary capability has been ground into the dust, it will take us a few years to build an |MIC begore we can start discussing such strategy

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2014 09:03

but policy based moves like testing next gen n-weapons on the shelf can be readily done.

as well clearing certain roadblocks like MRTT.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Apr 2014 09:16

Not with economy what it is. Quite frankly given the way Pakis are armed, would not be suprised if they try something tactically Brilliant and 3,5 save them before it is taken to a logical conclusion.

In Fact, one of the Paki reasons for Kargil in 1999 was to embarrass and show the helplessness of a BJP govt in Delhi.

Now they 75 F-16s, numerous cruise missiles, P-3, 5 cruise missile capable firing ships, while we tweeted out thumbs in buying enough Barak-1 missiles, I fear for the worst.

Expect a provocation from Pakistan if we have anti INC govt in Delhi.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby ramdas » 13 Apr 2014 09:37

@Aditya_V

Changing the nuclear NFU stance is the best way to avoid Paki ``tactical brilliance". This has to be done, given how badly the anti-national UPA has hollowed out conventional capabilities.

Kargil was certainly an attempt to embarrass the BJP. Moreover, 3.5 hoped that nuclear weapons would be discredited in the public eye by enabling a paki win in Kargil. This would have paved the way for political action to disarm us (unfortunately, we have way too many entrenched traitors in our polity).

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby ramdas » 13 Apr 2014 09:48

@ Aditya_V:

Some things that a future NDA govt can do immediately:

0. Change nuclear NFU policy.

1. Allow the private sector into defense manufacture: in particular, order 1000 Kalyani-Group Bharat-52 155mm/52 artillery pieces after putting them through rapid trials. They are ready to make it for India with first pieces being delivered to IA within months of the order.

2. Order several more Pinaka regiments from Tata as well as L&T. We should order 10-20 regiments over the next 5 years.

This will redress our artillery shortage. A good home made 155/52 should be indicted without waiting for it to fit each and every IA specification. Perfect is the enemy of good. At least, Gen. V. K. Singh seems to understand this. Will be good if he is defense minister.

In the near future, such a government should (in the enlarger national interest)

3. Testing thermonuclear weapons till we have a successful TN warhead.

I still expect the Paki provocation will be in the form of a terror attack: they have right now 63 F-16's +49 JF-17. No match for 194 Su30MKIs+62 MiG-29. Similarly, Brahmos equipped ships can obliterate their surface navy.

Nevertheless, a war would be bad for us, given our precariously perched economy…This makes it possible for the 3.5 to instigate a conflict to derail NDA from working on the economy and to use the resulting frustration to enable the dynasty to make a comeback some years down the line.

All in all, difficult/challenging times ahead for our country. Hope the people at large also show the national character to stay the course..

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby nash » 13 Apr 2014 12:03

what we required from new government is swift, smooth and clean decision making.
Also want them to streamline the various processes. Even if that happen we can see many visible changes.

In IA, apart from artillery they should push the F-INSAS programme faster and also induction of more Arjun MBT.

In IAF, first they should close Rafale deal as quickly as possible and if rafale, LCA and PAK-Fa get delayed then order 40-50 more MKI and try to indegenize its various parts. Also, close the tanker, decide on AWACS(extra 2) and various transport aircraft deal.

In IN, decide quickly on P-75I project, 6 MRMR, LHD and follow on AC.

Having said that, there is long list of various ongoing project at different stages. New government should push for it and create a healthy environment between customer and producer.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 13 Apr 2014 14:06

Where are Pakistan's F-16s allegedly bought from Jordan? They have disappeared from the news, but wwe now have news of 6 new Chinese subs. Interesting and good news in many ways.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 13 Apr 2014 16:46

40 of the F16's in PAF were acquired in 1983 that makes it 31 year old airframes .

Half of the 41 F-16A/B Block 15 jets were upgraded to Block 15 MLU standard by early October 2013 (wiki)

can someone through a light at the actual configuration of these F16's . As from my limited knowledge , i know that during 1999 conflict they were not BVR capable.

Now that Falcon STAR upgrade is done to them they are AIM-120 AMRAAM compatible , But what radar is put in them & how they compare to our SU30MKI , MIG 29 , M2K & LCA.

The only reason i am asking experts point of view on the topic is because the Paf have a lot of people on internet media bragging about their F16's without giving out any technical data of the aircraft(radar etc).

The only thing written about Falcon STAR is the service life of 8000 hrs.(again wiki)

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby abhik » 13 Apr 2014 16:58

ramdas wrote:Some things that a future NDA govt can do immediately:

0. Change nuclear NFU policy.
...

I don't get the brouhaha on ditching the NFU policy. What we need to be ditching is our policy of "minimal" deterrence.

tushar_m

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 13 Apr 2014 17:27

The statement made for ditching NFU maybe related to minimal deterrence.

See if we are not thinking of hitting anyone with Nuclear weapons , we only need "minimal" deterrence which in turn say's that the three forces should also maintain "minimal" deterrence (equipment , numbers ,installations) wise.

It could be a game changer if modi govt ditches NFU . It will counter the threat that pakistan which continue to threaten us with nuclear weapons. The same goes to China which do some mischief's knowing that the whole idea of Indian military establishment is maintaining defensive stands & not aggressive engagement.

Once this minimal deterrence or maintaining defensive not aggressive stands change you could actually see a significant growth in India's military might.

tushar_m

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 13 Apr 2014 18:01


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby P Chitkara » 14 Apr 2014 14:34

I believe 1999 was not targeted to put NDA govt in a spot and would have happened regardless of the govt of day. Following will give some food for thought

1. What was the NDAs response to parliament attack?
We were almost at war with the TSP with the entire military mobilized.
2. What was the UPAs response to Mumbai attack?
Not a soldier moved out of the barracks. On the contrary the forces have been weakened significantly in last ten years with even
some of the procurements initiated during NDA regime not coming through.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Indrajit » 14 Apr 2014 17:01

tushar_m wrote:40 of the F16's in PAF were acquired in 1983 that makes it 31 year old airframes .

Half of the 41 F-16A/B Block 15 jets were upgraded to Block 15 MLU standard by early October 2013 (wiki)

can someone through a light at the actual configuration of these F16's . As from my limited knowledge , i know that during 1999 conflict they were not BVR capable.

Now that Falcon STAR upgrade is done to them they are AIM-120 AMRAAM compatible , But what radar is put in them & how they compare to our SU30MKI , MIG 29 , M2K & LCA.

The only reason i am asking experts point of view on the topic is because the Paf have a lot of people on internet media bragging about their F16's without giving out any technical data of the aircraft(radar etc).

The only thing written about Falcon STAR is the service life of 8000 hrs.(again wiki)


The Falcon STAR upgrade brings them to Block 40 standard,note that they are being done by TAI and much of THK consists of Block 40s.As per the guys at F-16.Net these were the best dogfighters.

Block-40

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... mk&cad=rja

tushar_m

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 14 Apr 2014 18:48

i was mush interested in the detection range of F16's radar (PAF) & the kind of ECM capabilities they have

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2014 20:43

none of these MLUs are upto the Block52 std of which they have some new airframes. the block52 probably with its CFT and better avionics/ECM is a the best long range strike plane of the family, while the block40 the best A2A bird when suitably equipped.

tushar_m

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 18 Apr 2014 09:36

India to pay Russia for arms, ammo it sells to Afghanistan

As of now, the ANA is a predominantly infantry force as the US, sources said, limited its access to long-range guns largely due to Pakistani concerns. But over the past of couple of years, Afghanistan has been pressuring countries such as India and Russia to properly equip the ANA if it has to repel Taliban offensives on its own.
On the training front, the Indian position remains the same. While trying to meet Afghan demands for more seats here, the government is still against setting up any facility in Afghanistan and posting instructors there. Sources pointed out that any such move may also invite strong Pakistani protests.


Some good thinking

tushar_m

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 18 Apr 2014 20:24

US Congress Stymies Pakistani Naval Modernization Efforts

For a decade Pakistan’s Navy has pinned hopes on acquiring surplus US Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates to replace its six now 40-year-old ex-British Type-21 frigates. This met with some success when the Perry-class frigate McInerney was renamed Alamgir and transferred in 2011.

However, three proposed for Pakistan last fall have effectively been blocked as the proposed bill continues to languish in committee without being put to the full US Senate.


“The only reasonable option seems to be more F-22P frigates. The Type-21s are well past their prime and need to be retired yesterday,” he said.

However, though an agreement was reached with China for an improved batch of F-22P frigates in 2012, no deal has yet been signed.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby VinodTK » 22 Apr 2014 04:37

Exclusive! 'ISI kept Osama as asset, knows where Mullah Omar is'
'Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence ran a special desk that was concerned solely with handling Osama as an intelligence asset.'

'Some dream that the Taliban's flag will fly again over Kabul.'

'Musharraf was aware of the plans to assassinate Benazir and did nothing'
:
:
:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby anupmisra » 22 Apr 2014 15:43

Pakistan successfully test-fires Hatf III

What's there to test? That the new brand of paint does not peel off when the missile is fired?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Brad Goodman » 22 Apr 2014 17:41

They need to teach new mujahid how to put it in bottle and light the fuse

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby NRao » 22 Apr 2014 18:04

VinodTK wrote:Exclusive! 'ISI kept Osama as asset, knows where Mullah Omar is'
'Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence ran a special desk that was concerned solely with handling Osama as an intelligence asset.'

'Some dream that the Taliban's flag will fly again over Kabul.'

'Musharraf was aware of the plans to assassinate Benazir and did nothing'
:
:
:


There seems to be a break down in the US intel com. This and the maha gathering in Yemen a few days ago and the Intel com is unaware of it? Unable to break the code?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 24 Apr 2014 08:50

X Posted from the “ISI-History and Discussions” thread.

Even during the infrequent interregnums of democracy in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military run amok and terrorise civilians, journalists included. Seems the ” Jihad Fi Sabilillah” or translated “Jihad in the Path of Allah” part of the motto of Uniformed Jihadi’s of “Iman, Taqwa, Jihad Fi Sabilillah” or “Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of Allah” provides cover for killing Journalists.

Mohammed Hanif, BBC Urdu's special correspondent based in Karachi and author of “A Case of Exploding Mangoes” writing in the UK’s Guardian:

The Hamid Mir case: 'In Pakistan, they used to censor journalists – now they shoot us'

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 24 Apr 2014 16:33

Vayu quotes Paki sources saying STF-UP should have received those Jordanian F 16s in March. But no news at all. Meanwhile a Jordanian F 16 crashed a few days ago..


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