Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Shrinivasan
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shrinivasan » 18 Sep 2014 11:45

I think the whole incident has been stage managed... this is probably another ruse to extract more ARLMs from Massa. The speed at which the ship was re-taken, the secrecy around the incident and apparent lack of noise from Massa. Probably the game was quickly seen thru!!!

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Sep 2014 11:50

Yup why cant take something like PNS Khalid and fire exocets and Harpoons at an American CBG, or a P-# could do that, that would be paying back America in the same coin. American aide weapons used against thier ships.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 18 Sep 2014 13:20

afaik they never got hold of the ship. they were intercepted attempting to get into the dockyard and killed or chased away there. apparently a recently retired navy commander was also with them....presumably to guide them if they managed to get onboard a ship.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_20067 » 18 Sep 2014 16:32

Singha wrote:afaik they never got hold of the ship. they were intercepted attempting to get into the dockyard and killed or chased away there. apparently a recently retired navy commander was also with them....presumably to guide them if they managed to get onboard a ship.


Recent reports suggest --3-4 navy folks boarded the ship in full attire...-- they intended to help 6 more to board via a small boat----... read the links shared --- one even blew himself up inside the ship

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby saip » 18 Sep 2014 18:48

Singha wrote:afaik they never got hold of the ship. they were intercepted attempting to get into the dockyard and killed or chased away there. apparently a recently retired navy commander was also with them....presumably to guide them if they managed to get onboard a ship.


I think they did board the vessel. I read the guards at the stairs even saluted the people who were boarding and someone else from another ship nearby suspected something was amiss.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 18 Sep 2014 19:02

It would be interesting to see how the US Navy and the Pakistan navy conduct a joint exercise. :mrgreen:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby chetak » 18 Sep 2014 19:04

saip wrote:
Singha wrote:afaik they never got hold of the ship. they were intercepted attempting to get into the dockyard and killed or chased away there. apparently a recently retired navy commander was also with them....presumably to guide them if they managed to get onboard a ship.


I think they did board the vessel. I read the guards at the stairs even saluted the people who were boarding and someone else from another ship nearby suspected something was amiss.



stairs nitpick :) it's the gangway


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby saip » 18 Sep 2014 21:53

stairs nitpick :) it's the gangway

Ah, semantics. Whether you call it toilet or head it is still Pakistan.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 18 Sep 2014 22:10

Comments section on dawn link above...The thing to note is that the Punjabis dominate the PN even more than they dominate the PA. Former CNS of the PN, Adm. Karamat Rehman Niazi plays a leading part in Tableegi Jamaat at Raiwind.

However, once again the Talibs are found wanting in execution. The loss of veterans like Ustad-e-Fidayeen, Qari Husseein Mehsud et al is telling perhaps.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 18 Sep 2014 23:04

Singha wrote:Comments section on dawn link above...


nobody is celebrating PN's first ever surface to surface kill ... albeit a rubber dinghy with their uniforms :((

"The gunner felt they were too close and their weapons appeared to be AK-47s, which aren't standard Marine issue," a Pakistani security official said. "The gunner turned his sights on them and fired a warning shot. The militants, fearing the game was up, also retaliated with rockets and automatic weapons."

At the sound of the firing, Marines and naval commandos rushed to the ship and were engaged by the renegade officers awaiting the militants on the inflatable boat.

While those on board the ship continued to fight it out for a few hours, the ones in the inflatable boat had no chance, security officials said. The gunner ripped apart the boat with his Gatling antiaircraft gun, killing all six in the boat.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 18 Sep 2014 23:19

I bet in reality these guys and their SSG/n got their butts kicked and took heavy casualties but the jokers are hiding the actual casualty counts as they have always done.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby KLNMurthy » 20 Sep 2014 22:25

Singha wrote:Comments section on dawn link above...The thing to note is that the Punjabis dominate the PN even more than they dominate the PA. Former CNS of the PN, Adm. Karamat Rehman Niazi plays a leading part in Tableegi Jamaat at Raiwind.

However, once again the Talibs are found wanting in execution. The loss of veterans like Ustad-e-Fidayeen, Qari Husseein Mehsud et al is telling perhaps.


Which of you yeevil yindoos is responsible for this comment? fess up. :-)
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Why India is releasing so much water into the sea? If there is no sea then we have no need to maintain navy. This is Indian conspiracy. Some times they stop water and cause drought in pakistan and sometimes they release water and cause flood in Pakistan. India is responsible for everything.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Sep 2014 09:03



So Pakistan is getting those MRAPS after all!! As expected from the US, who could have sold to Afganistan and India.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Ganesh_S » 21 Sep 2014 11:00


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Sep 2014 11:04



GaneshS I belive there is an extra "/url", typed in your link which does not work.


Pakis never admit to F-16 crashes, per thiier records an F-16 has not crashed since 1994, but the number of replacement F-16A/B with Black 30 upgrade with total fleet numbers sujects there have been around 6-8 crashes which they have not owned up to.

From the pics however, I would take the TTP claim as hot air, since there is nothing but an unexploded bomb with no wreckage of an aircraft.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 21 Sep 2014 11:14

Aditya_V wrote:From the pics however, I would take the TTP claim as hot air, since there is nothing but an unexploded bomb with no wreckage of an aircraft.

There are two separate items in separate photographs. . One is a bomb and the other looks like a drop tank. Both seem to have pylons nearby which is really strange. Something is odd - but in the absence of pics of the rest of the a/c nothing can be proven.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Sep 2014 11:23

Yes its odd, at the very least some pylons and stuff fell off the aircraft, or an F-16 has crash landed'/ crashed which has been cordoned off by the uniformed Jihadis which the TTP don't have access to.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Yagnasri » 21 Sep 2014 12:00

Aditya_V wrote:


So Pakistan is getting those MRAPS after all!! As expected from the US, who could have sold to Afganistan and India.


Are we sure it is a sale. From where Pakis got money???

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 21 Sep 2014 13:41

shiv wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:From the pics however, I would take the TTP claim as hot air, since there is nothing but an unexploded bomb with no wreckage of an aircraft.

There are two separate items in separate photographs. . One is a bomb and the other looks like a drop tank. Both seem to have pylons nearby which is really strange. Something is odd - but in the absence of pics of the rest of the a/c nothing can be proven.


Other pictures exist, not shown to protect H&D of vendor and operators. A F-16MLU or 52 vs US made MANPAD is an incident they dont want played out. Vetted images have been released to ensure traffic/visibility to website while not stepping outside redlines.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby muttukur » 21 Sep 2014 16:50

Second strike capability within a year by Pakistan

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi ... story.html

Another Mumbai like attack (which is quite possible) then the situation is going to turn ugly.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Ganesh_S » 21 Sep 2014 22:28

Aditya_V wrote:


GaneshS I belive there is an extra "/url", typed in your link which does not work.


Pakis never admit to F-16 crashes, per thiier records an F-16 has not crashed since 1994, but the number of replacement F-16A/B with Black 30 upgrade with total fleet numbers sujects there have been around 6-8 crashes which they have not owned up to.

From the pics however, I would take the TTP claim as hot air, since there is nothing but an unexploded bomb with no wreckage of an aircraft.



Aditya, not sure if there was any problem with the link. It appeared to be working when i checked it then.

My bad, i assumed the images to be of a guidance pod.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SSridhar » 22 Sep 2014 05:23


. . . said Shireen M. Mazari, a nuclear expert {wow!}

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 22 Sep 2014 10:48

images of pakistani F16 shot down (Hot linked)

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby rkhanna » 22 Sep 2014 14:22

Looks like a fuel tank..doesnt mean anything.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby deejay » 22 Sep 2014 16:12

^^^ No Sir, more than a fuel tank. Not sure if all photos are related. But in tushar_m's post, 04th pic, 02nd from bottom and the last pic are more than a drop tank.

The image with part no. though supports the idea of a drop tank along with its attachment theory. The Part No. is of TER-9A Triple Ejector Rack used on F-16's.

Went searching on the net, even the General Dynamics F16 wiki page has an entry on this Taliban claim, lists it as a claim.

Now either two separate TER-9A Triple Ejector Racks fell off; one with the bomb and one with the fuel tank and then some other parts also fell off without the plane falling down or the plane has fallen scattered over a biggish area. But the parts are certainly more than a drop tank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operational_history

In September 2014, the Pakistani Taliban stated it shot down a PAF F-16 with a surface to air missile.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shrinivasan » 23 Sep 2014 11:59

This is not sale.. this is at best extortion by pakees... Desh should offer to buy them out for a higher price and gift it to the Afghan National Army...they need it the most.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 23 Sep 2014 20:39

The bombs are still wired to the pylon, so the stores were jettisoned.

In the absence of other images, it seems the aircraft was either hit or had a mechanical malfunction, jettisoned stores with pylons, and flew back in a clean configuration.
Last edited by tsarkar on 23 Sep 2014 20:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 23 Sep 2014 20:41

tsarkar wrote:The bombs are still wired to the pylon, so the stores were jettisoned.

In the absence of other images, it seems the aircraft was either hit or had a mechanical malfunction, jettisoned stores with pylons, and flew back in a clean configuration.

Is it possible to jettison pylons? Are there mechanical linkages that can be released in flight to jettison pylons? I have not heard of that before. Stores are jettisoned. Not pylons.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 23 Sep 2014 21:05

Yes, pylons can be jettisoned, to enable planes fly back clean. However, rarely done in practice.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby NRao » 23 Sep 2014 21:10


Went searching on the net, even the General Dynamics F16 wiki page has an entry on this Taliban claim, lists it as a claim


Most anyone should be able to edit a wiki.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 23 Sep 2014 21:19

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 3_ch15.pdf

Page 15-18

Jettison System
The jettison system gives the pilot or crew a way to jettison weapons, stores, launchers, and fuel tanks. The jettison system has three modes of release—emergency jettison, selective jettison, and auxiliary jettison. The emergency jettison mode jettisons all weapons from the five pylon stations. The selective jettison mode individually jettisons the left fuselage missile, the right fuselage missile, racks, launchers, and stores. The auxiliary jettison mode is a gravity mode to jettison the five pylon stations when emergency and/or selective jettison fails.


In the last mode the pylon is mechanically decoupled from the plane.

Stealth planes like F22, PAKFA use this mode to dispense they pylons and regain LO.

Now, if I observe the picture more carefully, it looks like the launchers jettisoned with the bomb and the pylon with the EFT.

However, ditching fuel tanks, racks, launchers, pylons - that are expensive - in a CI strike, is an indicator that was plane was in a hurry to go home clean.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sattili » 23 Sep 2014 22:02

^^^^
for F16 there are two modes to Jettison stores, selective and emergency. In selective mode it is a 2 step operation first one for jettisoning the stores and second on is for releasing the racks (if they are jettison able).

F16 has a one button Emergency Jettison system which releases everything except air to air missiles in one go.
Read page42 in the link below:
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=g3XrAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=F16+stores+jettisonable+racks&source=bl&ots=QiPdAAQpSz&sig=I7esy3uo8mS7_1nB4qEfjuknpyY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uqghVKfAGYi8uATulICYCA&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2014 01:06

The EFT indeed look like F-16. Also, the pylon attachment is jettisoned along with the EFT

http://www.newson6.com/story/12957773/t ... ady-county

Jettisoning pylons is common on variable geometry wing aircraft like 534 here. With stores, it cant swing its wing. However, once the fuel is used up, it can jettison its tanks and pylons and fly fully swept.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 4.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 2.jpg.html

573 too has similar tanks
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 4.jpg.html

As does 584
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 4.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 2.jpg.html

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2014 01:06

The EFT indeed look like F-16. Also, the pylon attachment is jettisoned along with the EFT

http://www.newson6.com/story/12957773/t ... ady-county

Jettisoning pylons is common on variable geometry wing aircraft like 534 here. With stores, it cant swing its wing. However, once the fuel is used up, it can jettison its tanks and pylons and fly fully swept.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 4.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 2.jpg.html

573 too has similar tanks
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 4.jpg.html

As does 584
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 4.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 2.jpg.html

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Sep 2014 10:20

tsarkar wrote:..However, ditching fuel tanks, racks, launchers, pylons - that are expensive - in a CI strike, is an indicator that was plane was in a hurry to go home clean.
F-16 is affectionately called a LAWN DART for its high accident rate (in comparison with F-15, F-14 or F-18). Hence it has been designed with an ability to dump everything to save the Airframe.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Sep 2014 10:22

anybody wonders how come the pilot did not bail out? don't Paki F-16s have ejector seats? also how can TTP target an F-16 which is not exactly a ground attack bird and would at best be used for stand-off bombing or escorting J-17s or Mirage-Vs?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby dinesha » 24 Sep 2014 13:01

Pakistan is eyeing sea-based and short-range nuclear weapons, analysts say-The Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi ... story.html
...
For more than a decade, Pakistan has sent signals that it is attempting to bolster its nuclear arsenal with “tactical” weapons — short-range missiles that carry a smaller warhead and are easier to transport.

Over the past two years, Pakistan has conducted at least eight tests of various land-based ballistic or cruise missiles that it says are capable of delivering nuclear warheads. Last September, Sha­rif, citing “evolving security dynamics in South Asia,” said Pakistan is developing “a full-spectrum deterrence capability to deter all forms of aggression.”

The next step of Pakistan’s strategy includes an effort to develop nuclear warheads suitable for deployment from the Indian Ocean, either from warships or from one of the country’s five diesel-powered submarines, analysts say. In a sign of that ambition, Pakistan in 2012 created the Naval Strategic Force command, which is similar to the commands in the air force and army that oversee nuclear weapons.

“We are on our way, and my own hunch is within a year or so, we should be developing our second-strike capability,” said Shireen M. Mazari, a nuclear expert and the former director of the Institute of Strategic Studies Islamabad, a hawkish Pakistani-government-funded think tank.
..

..
In 2011, nongovernment experts interviewed by The Post estimated that Pakistan had built more than 100 deployed nuclear weapons. Now Pakistan’s fourth plutonium-production reactor is also nearing completion, and while most assessments of the country’s warhead inventory have not changed much in recent years, analysts say Pakistan continues to produce weapons material and develop delivery vehicles, positioning itself for another spurt of rapid growth at any time.

“They are going to make as much fissile material as they possibly can and keep making as many warheads as they possibly can,” said Pervez Hoodbhoy, a leading Pakistani nuclear expert and physicist.
...


..
Pakistan has repeatedly tested its indigenously produced, nuclear-capable Babur cruise missile, which has a range of 400 miles and can strike targets at land and sea, military officials said. In 2011 and last year, Pakistan also tested a new tactical, nuclear-capable battlefield missile that has a range of just 37 miles.

“This is the miniaturization of warheads,” said Mansoor Ahmed, a strategic studies and nuclear expert at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad.

Maria Sultan, chairwoman of the Islamabad-based South Asian Strategic Stability Institute, an organization with close links to Pakistani military and intelligence officials, said the short-range missile is designed as a signal to India’s military.

“We are saying, ‘We have target acquisition for very small targets as well, so it’s really not a great idea to come attack us,’ ”
Sultan said. “Before, we only had big weapons, so there was a gap in our deterrence, which is why we have gone for tactical nuclear weapons and cruise missiles.”

Still, even a limited use of nuclear weapons on the battlefield would likely trigger a major retaliatory strike from India, said Manpreet Sethi, a senior fellow at the New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies.
..

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kancha » 25 Sep 2014 20:00

Prithwiraj wrote:
Singha wrote:afaik they never got hold of the ship. they were intercepted attempting to get into the dockyard and killed or chased away there. apparently a recently retired navy commander was also with them....presumably to guide them if they managed to get onboard a ship.


Recent reports suggest --3-4 navy folks boarded the ship in full attire...-- they intended to help 6 more to board via a small boat----... read the links shared --- one even blew himself up inside the ship


How long before an entire crew of a ship at sea go rogue and do the honours?


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