Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 24 Sep 2015 01:39

Sledgehammer, dude!!

AH-1Z/Z-10 platforms are bakhsheesh (donations) from China/US to make sure their MIC retains their influence. PAF preferred to buy TAI 129, but (as we all know) due to lack (or no) money could not buy their proffered platform. Mi-35 sale can be seen as foot in the door for larger purchases and keep India in check. Also India has its own attack platform in form of LAH, hence they are no longer holding their breath.

Regarding J-10B/J-31/Su-35, they all will cost upward of 80+ Mil to PAF. Think of meare 20/30 pierces for 5-6 billion, plus support and infra cost. PAF cannot afford it event if they sell all available kidney's in Pakistan. When was the last time you spent even 1 billion on weapon purchase?

Hence... all these tables on how awesome PAF will become after 10 years are BS. PAF only get rusting Mirages/Migs/JF-17 bunders + donated F-16s. Live with it.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 24 Sep 2015 06:41

around 5 years from now, when EU starts inducting the JSF, 100s of F-16 airframes with more life on them than usaf ones(as eu seldom does long expeditionary deployments) will get retired and can be overhauled and put to use by PAF while building up a good attrition reserve as well. the RACR/SABR radar and new EW would be good. they already operate all nato std weapons incl amraam. they were already all MLU upto some block40ish std.

not as advanced or rangey like the new block-52 but much better than F-7/Mirage3-5

I think norway, denmark, netherland, belgium, portugal are good prospects.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 24 Sep 2015 17:21

By US laws you cant transfer weapons without prior approval , so unless US approves such a sale to Pak they will just end up in boneyard

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 24 Sep 2015 18:04

why would the US not approve it.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby brar_w » 24 Sep 2015 18:44

For most of these NATO air-forces that F-35A is going to be 4-6 years late given the initial plans drawn up in the late 1990's and early 2000's. Moreover the larger decline in European defense spending over the last 10 years may mean that they operate a mixed fleet for longer than earlier planned and spread their F-35 purchases over a larger number of years.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 24 Sep 2015 20:33

brar_w saheb, does the aim9x and amraam fit as-is into JSF or special folding/clipped fin versions are needed.

if special version is needed, the EU will retire a good number of missiles with shelf life left, with due replacement of batteries etc, PAF can also snap these up cheaply for the F-16s.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby brar_w » 24 Sep 2015 20:55

AMRAAM C3's and above work on the F-35. The issue with wings may come up when they move from 4 internal missiles to 6 internal missiles in block 4.3. The Aim-9X is externally carried. There are plans to incorporate ASRAAM internally but I don't think the Aim-9X will be made internally compliant (you'll need rail modifications) since the long term USAF plan is to have better HOBS BVR missiles (The NGM and JDRADM all had this capability requirement) that can also take out close in targets..

If some users have older AMRAAM's that require some sort of structural work to get them compatible with later JSF capability, they'd opt for getting that work done rather than buy new missiles given Europe's budget situation.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 24 Sep 2015 21:14

jeebus the f-35 in stealth really cant dogfight then..not unless fancy next gen mijjiles appear...

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby brar_w » 24 Sep 2015 21:30

The higher C variants and the D variant AMRAAM has significantly improved HOBS capability. The ASRAAM integration will follow next and there the UK wants to integrate it internally (external testing is currently underway). Once that is done in block 4ish then you have pretty much also done the major work for the Aim-9X and IRIS-T because of seeker compatibility, but the Follow on development would have to address this issue in the long term and I don't think the USAF or the USN is willing to talk openly about its future missile programs other then confirming that 6-8 prototypes have been fired at targets. The aircraft it replaced did not have the ability to carry any long range missile when it came out so expect the JSF to evolve significantly starting 2019 and into the 2020's and beyond as the fleet size increases and begins to replace large numbers of F-16's and F-18's. The USN plans to operate its fleet in a mixed way with the fully stealthy aircraft in the penetrating strike role and 2 Aim-9X Blk. II configuration for the air to air role before shifting to an internal missile over time. The program like many others is a work in progress with a lot of capabilities fighting for integration with limited amount of resources to throw at them. All stealth aircraft that lack swing rail type bays would require a different solution i.e. either modify the existing missiles or seek a new missile more optimized and the JSF is no exception. Its either that or you make a larger aircraft and leave dedicated bays like the F-22, T-50 and J-20. I don't think there is a medium class stealth fighter that has dedicated side rail doors although Boeing proposed them during the loosing bid. The J-31, Korean F-X and the AMCA have a single bay solution.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2ppy454.jpg

Its the same issue in reverse the F-16 ran into when it came out In that the USAF and USN had huge inventories of Sparrows that they did not want to integreate as they wanted to integrate the AMRAAM at a future date. They spent a little bit of money to keep the Politicians happy and fired a few sparrows at a few targets but never really introduced that capability to the fleet in a large way. Same will most likely happen but here the international partners and customers may need the capability sooner and will pay for it just as they paid to study the feasibility and get an estimate on the cost and time for it. The USAF is likely to drag its feet until it gets a new missile unless someone forces it to add this as a part of its upgrade package.

Besides the UK I think the IDF will be proactive here and develop an ER variant of the Python 5 to fully integrate with the AN/AAQ-37. The USN may follow a bit later with the USAF most likely to be the last because there priorities are going to be newer waveforms, electronic warfare, more strike weapons, ROVER, and Adv. EOTS. However once you move to 6 internal missile capability, you essentially free up the 2 door Aim-120's for an IR missile allowing you the ability to carry 4 AMRAAM class missiles and 2 WVR missiles internally. That is currently expected (added capability) in 2022 after which it is just a matter of asking for a capability (which the UK has) and conducting a test program to operationalize it.

Anyways, the Europeans are unlikely to start selling off their AMRAAM inventories when they don't have a lot of surplus money in their budgets to buy new ones. The METEOR operators for example are pooling resources and combining inventories.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Viv S » 24 Sep 2015 22:16

brar_w wrote:AMRAAM C3's and above work on the F-35. The issue with wings may come up when they move from 4 internal missiles to 6 internal missiles in block 4.3. The Aim-9X is externally carried. There are plans to incorporate ASRAAM internally but I don't think the Aim-9X will be made internally compliant (you'll need rail modifications) since the long term USAF plan is to have better HOBS BVR missiles (The NGM and JDRADM all had this capability requirement) that can also take out close in targets..

Actually all you'd need is a software modification for the Aim-9X to allow for delayed ignition. It already has a data-link (so pK for LOAL isn't an issue). And the airframe should comfortably sustain the G-load on ejection (if the Aim-120 & Meteor can do it.).

The interesting thing for us will be the Israeli Python 6 (based on the Rafael Stunner) - HTK, dual seeker, multi-pulse motor.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Viv S » 24 Sep 2015 22:25

Singha wrote:why would the US not approve it.


By the time, the ISAF forces should long since have withdrawn. While existing support contracts will probably be honoured, the Pakistanis aren't getting any fresh contracts after that happens. Its back to the doghouse, and they know it.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby brar_w » 24 Sep 2015 22:44

Actually all you'd need is a software modification for the Aim-9X to allow for delayed ignition.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=1905320#p1905320

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 25 Sep 2015 12:12

Singha wrote:why would the US not approve it.


They might , My point was these countries cannot sell US equipment just because they want too , they need approval from US

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 25 Sep 2015 12:15

Major US Arms Sale and Grants to Pakistan Since 2001

Image

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Sep 2015 13:06

I think many items like Harpoon Missiles etc are undervalued, see the the prices we paid for U209, P-8I harpoon missiles to get a true value, so this discount has also got to be factored in free value.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby K Mehta » 25 Sep 2015 14:35

Austin ji from recent history
http://www.janes.com/article/45976/pakistan-receives-a-squadron-of-surplus-jordanian-f-16s

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has received into service 'a squadron' of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft from the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF), a senior PAF service


This news is less than a year old and not much has changed since. What makes you think that a repeat of this is not possible?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 25 Sep 2015 15:21

turkey has also recently given them 38 T-37 trainer jets for free.

instead of wasting our time spending $1b on 66 hawks i have always recommended we should raid khans boneyards and get 1000s of useful kit at low prices instead of hankering for new stuff on every point. its better than licensed import assembly imo as we get the stuff quicker and focus can be on domestic product manufacture instead of easy sugar like licensed assembly.

learn to play the game with half the deftness of pakistan.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 25 Sep 2015 16:43

This love fest will continue until sun goes down for coalition forces in Afghanistan. After that, since porkies cannot help being themselves, they will attract sanctions and other penalties due to their activities.

All this second hand donations will stop trickling and they will move to usual Chinese hardware. Its inevitable.

@Singha, even with all these second hand hardware how much we can squeeze out of them. We have INS Jalashwa sitting idle like one old dying elephant, and unless we plan to spend a fortune like we did on Viky this second hand stuff wont yield too much value. For us its not about surviving by scavenging the leftovers, like our neighbor.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 25 Sep 2015 18:44

nothing major but simpler rugged old kit like M109, M113, hummers, Ah1Z ....a lot can be scavenged from old kit as IDF has shown in the past.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gagan » 25 Sep 2015 18:46

Hummer is a super duper gas guzzler. Fine time the pakistanis will have putting petrol in it :)

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 25 Sep 2015 18:48

arab fathers are there to demand free gas from :)

for every need, pakistan has a sugar-daddy lined up. no other country in the world has managed to get benefits from all three opposing camps - Nato, russia and china at the same time, with arab world as bonus :rotfl:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Abhay_S » 25 Sep 2015 19:51

Singha wrote:arab fathers are there to demand free gas from :)

for every need, pakistan has a sugar-daddy lined up. no other country in the world has managed to get benefits from all three opposing camps - Nato, russia and china at the same time, with arab world as bonus :rotfl:


Yeh sari duniya Ka Wahid Bekhari Mulk Hai.. :mrgreen:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gagan » 25 Sep 2015 21:36

Dunno, if the Arab fourfathers will give them free oil

Pakistan will have to ask its jihadis in the IS to 'create' some leverage in the middle east for this to start to happen.

India is a world class airforce, smaller airforces are coming to India to train and learn. These days the IAF exercises with Bartania, Amreeka, France etc, the three western security council members. That means more NEW western origin aircraft will be inducted
I don't think India will buy used maal

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_29151 » 25 Sep 2015 22:22

"Off Topic : I have Seen Two Journalist Who say Truth Within Pak Media : Mr. Hasan Nissar & Najam Sethi .
One Explanation Of kargil War I am Posting here.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QPeUX3_qfM[/youtube]

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gagan » 25 Sep 2015 22:41

Kumar Vinod wrote:"Off Topic : I have Seen Two Journalist Who say Truth Within Pak Media : Mr. Hasan Nissar & Najam Sethi

There was a brief period when Najam Sethi under the short lasted perestroika during the late musharraf / early kiyani regime, was neutral.
That however hasn't lasted very long. He has been displaying his pakistaniyat and with increased vigour ever since the UPA got kicked out in India.

Hassan Nisar:
Hmm, difficult to describe this guy. Other than him berating the pakistanis who sell ganda ghaleez doodh, and do dawaiyon mein milawat, he seldom has a lot of sensible things to say about the Bani Nau Insaan. I will forgive his occasional displays of Pakistaniyat, but he is more philosophical than actually doing any geostrategic analysis.

The guy to watch out for IMHO is Saleem Safi, who has this program Jirga. He really whupped Harami Gul's musharraf in one of his programs. Harami Gul tried to take refuge by quoting from the Quaran, a trick which shuts up all overinquisitive TV anchors, but not Saleem Safi. He not only completed the quote from the quaran, but offered a counter quote to nix Gul's argument. Hamid Gul, like all whiskey-swilling-but-allah-allah-saying Generals seemed to be quite stumped. Gul didn't know any appropriate quaran quote to say in a counter counter quote. Quite funny that interaction if you ask me.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krishna_krishna » 25 Sep 2015 22:50

Gagan sir if you can please share ur email id. There is something I want to run by you on the Internet may be its nothing.

KK

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 26 Sep 2015 07:17

Austin wrote:Major US Arms Sale and Grants to Pakistan Since 2001

Image

Admins/Sridhar - this is such a great image - could you please link it as a url (not an inline image) on the Paki threads as an information source? TIA

Am reporting my own post to draw attention.



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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 26 Sep 2015 15:17

Which thread do you want it in?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 26 Sep 2015 17:56

Singha wrote:Which thread do you want it in?

Just a link to the image on the first post of the STFUP thread - the discussion comes up most often there and this is a great "one-stop-shop" link to post 2001 developments

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 27 Sep 2015 11:29

X-Posting from India-Russia: News & Analysis

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Vodkawala update:

Recently been talking to one of my contacts from Vodkaland on the Su-35 issue. Seems that there is a plan to sell Su-35. In chronological order the reasons put forward were:
1) Russia considers Pakistan a key and possibly dangerous country. Therefore it needs to be engaged. Analogy were Turkey and keeping your enemies closer.
2) Pressed further our vodkawala said that even though Su-35's maybe supplied, no one knows what conditions maybe there for usage. And aircraft can be configured so as not to attack Indian planes during war. Moreover, Russia will not be supplying weapons packages.
3) Pressed further, he did mention maybe it was to 'increase competition.'

Did not speak on who is going to pay or anything.

So, there seems to be a distinct possibility of a Russian pivot to Pakistan to offset Indian influence.

Disclaimer: This contact is not officially linked to any Russian security agency but over years, I have seen him to be in places and knowledgeable about stuff you don't expect ordinary Lev's to be aware of. He has a remarkable tendency to be somehow in the periphery of the seats of power and important Russian events. Just no official or clinching evidence, but enough to set you wondering.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 27 Sep 2015 12:00

i have linked the arms sales image and closed the report.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 27 Sep 2015 12:36

take a look in the west asia thread for what the houthis and yemen army are doing to the shiny western gear used by the saudis and gulf arabs

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Viv S » 27 Sep 2015 14:17

Gagan wrote:The guy to watch out for IMHO is Saleem Safi, who has this program Jirga. He really whupped Harami Gul's musharraf in one of his programs. Harami Gul tried to take refuge by quoting from the Quaran, a trick which shuts up all overinquisitive TV anchors, but not Saleem Safi. He not only completed the quote from the quaran, but offered a counter quote to nix Gul's argument. Hamid Gul, like all whiskey-swilling-but-allah-allah-saying Generals seemed to be quite stumped. Gul didn't know any appropriate quaran quote to say in a counter counter quote. Quite funny that interaction if you ask me.


Just to catalogue that for the forum:

http://www.unewstv.com/49212/jirga-with ... -june-2015

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Paul » 27 Sep 2015 14:48

Safi does not appear to be a Pakjabi. He speaks with a Pushto accent, not shortage of anti India rhetoric though

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Vipul » 27 Sep 2015 16:58

Safi does not like Pakjabi domination of Pakistani Polity and Military. He is very sensitive to any damage to Pushto interests in Greater Afghanistan(Including NWFP/Khyber Pakhtunkhwa).
A couple of weeks back in a talk show on Pakistani Policy in Afghanistan he was very critical of Pakistani Army trying to subjugate the Afghanis to do what they want. He said "Ek toh aisa shuks tha joh Afghanistan ko Pakistan ka paachwa suba banana chahta tha. Yeh kitna ehmakhana khayal tha. Kya uss shuks ko yeh pataa nahin tha Afhanistan kisi ke bus mein nahin aata" He was clearly alluding to Hamid Gul. One of the participant in that talk show was Lt Gen Amjad Shoaib. When Safi said this he could only grimace and say nothing else.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby parshuram » 28 Sep 2015 22:48

No Su 35's for Pakistan :: Russia

"Hence the relations with Pakistan while being independent in nature will never have any designs against India. Islamabad is a very important player in joint efforts to maintain regional stability, especially in view of the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan and growing threats of international terrorism fuelled by ISIS and rampant drug production. These factors require collective counteraction and target-oriented capacity building. And these are exactly the reasons for our recent arrangements with Islamabad on the supply of four Mi-35 helicopters. I would also like to respond to the idle talk and pure invention of the media by reiterating that Russia has not discussed and does not have any plans to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan."

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 30 Sep 2015 11:14

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

Rajdeep wrote:News360: Visuals expose PoK horror


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJykCvgtFho


The real face of Pakistan occupied Kashmir has been exposed. There are massive protests against the Pakistani government in several areas of PoK, including Muzaffarabad, Gilgit and Kotli. CNN-IBN exposes how the Pakistani establishment is using brutal force to quell rebellion in the region, resorting to massive human rights violation even though Islamabad has never lost an opportunity to hit out at New Delhi over Kashmir and the alleged attempts to suppress the people living in the Valley.


A CNN-IBN article about the Punjabi Military dominated deep State of Islamic Republic of Pakistan oppresses Kashmiris in Gilgit, Muzzafarabad and Kotli in Occupied Jammu & Kashmir, to go with the video posted by you.

Article also has the same video embedded which conveys the scale and strong scope of protest not to mention the brutality of the crackdown of the Punjabi dominated security forces.

Am taking the liberty of cross posting this to the “Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan”, “J&K News and Discussion-2015” and “Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc” threads:

Pakistan muzzles pro-India voices in Pak-Occupied Kashmir with brutal force, human rights violations

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2015 13:44

parshuram wrote:No Su 35's for Pakistan :: Russia

"Hence the relations with Pakistan while being independent in nature will never have any designs against India. Islamabad is a very important player in joint efforts to maintain regional stability, especially in view of the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan and growing threats of international terrorism fuelled by ISIS and rampant drug production. These factors require collective counteraction and target-oriented capacity building. And these are exactly the reasons for our recent arrangements with Islamabad on the supply of four Mi-35 helicopters. I would also like to respond to the idle talk and pure invention of the media by reiterating that Russia has not discussed and does not have any plans to sell Su-35 aircraft to Pakistan."

Who pays SPUTNIK to report such chorguptological things: (from sep 9)
http://sputniknews.com/military/2015090 ... 88701.html
NIZHNY TAGIL (Russia), September 9 (Sputnik) — Moscow and Islamabad are currently in talks on the delivery of Russian multirole Mi-35M attack helicopters and the latest Su-35 fighter jets.


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