Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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tsarkar
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by tsarkar »

^ Now if JF-17 was so good, then why such wet dreams?

There were reports of F-7s with Marconi Skyranger radars and thereafter Italian Grifo radars and finally KLJ-6 radars. The KLJ-7 radar on JF-17 is an evolution of the KLJ-6 on J-7/F-7

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.in/2009 ... force.html
It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission
Good replacement for F-7 and Mirage-III/V but that's it. Reliability even lesser than the Mirage-III/V being replaced.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Kartik »

Austin wrote:I think PAF will eventually buy few J-20 Squadron from China ( buy or donate ) and will also Scout the world for F-16 and upgrade them via turkey etc that will be their frontline aircraft so called tip of spear. The block 2 and block 3 J-17 will be their spear itself , they will be mass product and will get BVR/WVR stuff from China , plus host of other A2G weapons.

If they manage this then they will have some thing to defend their airspace
Unlikely to be the J-20. Too big, too costly for PAF, even if the Chinese would want to export it. But so far the Chinese seem to not want to export it. FC-31, yes well it fits into the mediumish, twin engine fighter category, so maybe just about affordable in 3-4 squadron's worth size. Since the PLAAF hasn't yet funded it, SAC will require the Pakis to fund it as a commercial venture and cannot donate or offer very easy credit terms.

Expect a Block IV version with some stealth shaping and perhaps some features like a stealthy weapons pod to carry BVR weapons internally. Like on the Advanced Super Hornet. We might even see them exploring CFTs to increase the usage of hardpoints currently dedicated to drop tanks. a PAF squadron commander had spoken about how they could almost never use the JF-17 without carrying drop tanks. IFR will relieve some of that, but they don't have that many tanking assets either. And the speed with which the Chinese develop stuff and put it into flight testing, I'd expect CFTs to be investigated by even Block III.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Bheeshma »

When I was 10 yrs old in 1990's I remember pakistan begging for F-16's. I am willing to bet even when I am 40 they will still be begging for it.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Austin »

Pakistan Unveils VLF Submarine Communications Facility

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/pak ... s-facility
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Sid »

Austin wrote:Pakistan Unveils VLF Submarine Communications Facility

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/pak ... s-facility
It was just a matter of time I guess.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Bheeshma »

IN has moved to ELF. Any idea who helped the pakis? Chinese or French or US (unlikely).
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by sum »

^^ Would assume it would be a Chinese communication in all but name. Mostly kept ready for the incoming Yuan class
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by tsarkar »

Meant to post this earlier -

http://www.hal-india.com/Engine%20Divis ... put/M__138

TBO & TTL of different Engines are given below:

Project TBO TTL
R25 400 Hrs 1200 Hrs (MiG-21)
R29 550 Hrs 1500 Hrs (MiG-27)
RD33 300 Hrs 1000 Hrs (MiG-29)

http://www.hal-india.com/Sukhoi%20Engin ... put/M__140

TBO and TTL of AL31FP Engine is :

Project TBO TTL
AL31FP 1000 Hrs 2000 Hrs (Su-30MKI)
Thrust Vector Nozzle 500 Hrs 1000 Hrs

JF-17 uses a single RD-93 while J-10 uses a single AL-31 while J-20 uses two AL-31. We know IAF overhauls AL-31 at 700 hours.

There has been multiple cases of single engine failure in IAF MiG-29 and Su-30 with the aircraft landing on the alternate engine.

Given an indicator how robust the JF-17 and J-10 are.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Rishi Verma »

Sid wrote:
Austin wrote:Pakistan Unveils VLF Submarine Communications Facility

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/pak ... s-facility
It was just a matter of time I guess.
First a "VLF-submarine-communication facility" is a transmitter only. Submarines only receive the VLF/ELF signals.

Second, "VLF" is a loosely defined term so easy for Bakis to claim it. For example a 20khz VLF has a practical range of 30km provided very very high power is injected to excite the dipole antenna.
^^ Would assume it would be a Chinese communication in all but name. Mostly kept ready for the incoming Yuan class
Chinese may be experimenting a relay station for their subs in the Gwadar / Gulf region but for pakis to build such a facility is not feasible.

National capabilities are often deduced from the quality of technical papers coming out of their institutions. Bakis or Chinese have hardly any demonstrated presence in practical aspects of VLF/ELF transmitter. (not theories but actual hardware)

Regarding ELF the length of transmitting dipole antenna itself is in the range of 30km to 60km long!! And it's located at select areas inland where suitably large space exists with very high ground conductivity.

Note that this ISPR press release is worded with "nuclear triad" etc says that one needs to be in kitchen or restaurant where a pinch of salt is available while reading.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by prashantsharma »

Can someone share the coordinates for the VLF facility a.k.a PNS Hameed, would like to check it on google earth
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Gagan »

New Base: (PNS Hameed) 24°51'17.09"N 66°44'22.91"E
Underground Bunker: 24°51'22.94"N 66°43'57.88"E

Naval Comms Towers: (Next to Masroor airbase, and a SUPARCO Facility): 24°55'50.11"N 66°52'55.15"E
Command Bunker: 24°54'35.36"N 66°53'14.01"E

Underground Bunker: 24°53'7.73"N 66°55'40.30"E
N Weapons and Missile storage: 24°56'32.60"N 66°54'32.08"E
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Shameek »

Pak Military Exercise
Pakistan will give a “befitting response” to any “ambitious and reckless move” by its enemies, Prime Minster Nawaz Sharif warned on Wednesday as he witnessed a military exercise in a strategically located area in Punjab province, bordering India. “Exercise Raad ul Barq (Strike of Thunder) establishes that Pakistan is ready to confront any ambitious and reckless move by its enemies,” Sharif said addressing a ceremony marking culmination of military exercise in Khairpur Tamewali in Bahawalpur in Punjab, amid growing Indo-Pak tension.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya G »

Gagan wrote:...N Weapons and Missile storage: 24°56'32.60"N 66°54'32.08"E
Thanks Gagan.

The facility quoted above is an existing PAF air base IIRC. Remember checking it out a few years back.

Pak Navy continues to add operational capabilities despite being on a shoe string budget. Though the capabilities are not on same quality as Indian Navy; for example the UAV capability is distinctly basic. There are some Pakistan origin UAVs (Uqaab?) and also a couple of scan eagles which are all tactical systems. Navy on other hand uses Herons and Searchers with satellite links so that ship can control the UAV and thereafter hand it back to shore base. These are of course much longer in range as well.

They have setup a Nuclear C&C, however it is not clear as to what delivery mechanisms they have or plan to acquire. Potentially Mirage-Vs from PAF. I am not convinced if Babur missile is considered technically capable or reliable for nuclear strike,
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Austin »

PHOTOS: Pakistani armored vehicle HAMZA

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2271189.html
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Austin »

Ukraine and Pakistan has signed $600 million Deal to upgrade Pakistan 320 T-80UD Tanks

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2274478.html
On November 23, Pakistan had reached an agreement that the Ukrainian military-industrial complex will have on the country the order worth more than 600 million. Dollars. This is stated in the message Defense Ministry's press service.

"Arrangements relating to maintenance and modernization of tanks "- said the agency.

According to the source, the signing of the documents took place with the participation of Defense Minister Stepan Poltorak, his Pakistani counterpart Rana Tanvir Hussain and the first deputy secretary of the NSDC Oleg Gladkovsky.
Image
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Austin »

more details

Armoured ties: Ukraine gets USD 600 million contract from Pakistan

http://uatoday.tv/news/armoured-ties-uk ... 11753.html
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Austin »

Likely these upgrade will be to latest Oplot-M Main Battle Tank (MBT) standard from Ukraine , These are upgraded variant of T-80 (84 ) thar Ukr uses.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... k-ukraine/
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by ranjan.rao »

^^I can understand about countries like US, UK but shouldn't we armtwist this double dealing with countries like Ukraine..
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Austin »

'We Are Not Worried About India At All', Says Pakistan's Air Force Chief

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/we-are-n ... ef-1629728
Islamabad: Pakistan Air Force chief Marshal Sohail Aman said today that it is not worried at all about India and that its "battle hardened" military is capable of responding to any aggression.

"We are not worried about India at all," the Air Chief said, speaking at the ninth International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS).

He said it is better if India showed restraint to prevent escalation of tension.

Air Chief Marshal Aman said that Pakistan does not want war but cannot ignore the pressure. "We are well capable of responding in the face of any aggression," he asserted.

He said Pakistan had "readied all of its (battle) plans" in the wake of the situation which has been ongoing ever since the terror attack in Jammu and Kashmir's Uri sector.

The Air chief asserted that Pakistan, engaged in Operation Zarb-e-Azab, has a "battle hardened military" to respond to any threats.
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Post by Austin »

Pakistani air force chief warns India against escalating dispute into full-scale war

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/paki ... 18650.html
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Bart S »

'We Are Not Worried About India At All', Says Pakistan's Air Force Chief
:rotfl:

Sure, all this loudmouthed bravado is because you aren't worried :twisted:
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Rakesh »

^^^ the Pak Air Chief is absolutely right. They are not worried because they know it will be a 100% ass whupping. Worrying is not going to change that. So they are NOT worried :)
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Rakesh »

In a full scale conflict, the survival of the Pak Air Force beyond a week is highly doubtful. And that is not hyperbole or jingoism. Their only state-of-the-art aircraft they have is 18 Block 50/52 F-Solahs which Unkil closely monitors. Granted they have well trained pilots, but the brute force that the IAF can inflict upon them will be too much to bear. They will crumble to the point where they will not be able to effectively protect their own airspace. Air Dominance is what the Rambha is all about.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by ranjan.rao »

I think they will orient their airforce just like their navy is oriented..to be a terrorist force..they are the only terrorist organization with a capable AF
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by khan »

Rakesh wrote:In a full scale conflict, the survival of the Pak Air Force beyond a week is highly doubtful. And that is not hyperbole or jingoism. Their only state-of-the-art aircraft they have is 18 Block 50/52 F-Solahs which Unkil closely monitors. Granted they have well trained pilots, but the brute force that the IAF can inflict upon them will be too much to bear. They will crumble to the point where they will not be able to effectively protect their own airspace. Air Dominance is what the Rambha is all about.
I don't think anything in their air force will take off if there is full scale war.

The first things to go will be their runways - probably with ballistic missiles. 30 mins after their runways are gone, their skies will be crawling with SU-30's - 24x7 until hostilities are done.

Taking off in such an environment will be suicide.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by ranjan.rao »

^^^i think you are grossly underestimating them..this kind of bravado never worked with them...runways can be rebuilt..planes can possibly be replenished by their rich ummah..let's not be like the pigs...their air force is weak but not non immaterial..
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by svinayak »

Bart S wrote:
'We Are Not Worried About India At All', Says Pakistan's Air Force Chief
:rotfl:

Sure, all this loudmouthed bravado is because you aren't worried :twisted:
Why do they have to go to UN for problems in the border? They should ignore and let Indian forces take care of the terrorists inside their border
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by ranjan.rao »

Pakistan ko mirchi lagi Andhra wali
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Austin »

Three days ago, Pakistan pleaded with us to stop retaliation: Manohar Parrikar :lol:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
"After the surgical strike, the cowardly attacks continued which were retaliated strongly by our Armed Forces on the border. Our response to their attacks was strong.

"The day before yesterday we got a call from them pleading us to stop the retaliation," Parrikar said, referring to request for DGMO-level talks from Pakistan.

"We told them that we don't mind stopping (the counter attacks) as we are not interested in it, provided they too stop it. For last two days, the firing has stopped from across the border," the Defence Minister said.
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Post by Austin »

US welcomes appointment of Pakistan's new army chief Qamar Javed Bajwa

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 786_1.html
The US embassy in Islamabad in a statement welcomed Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's appointment of Lieutenant General Qamar Javed Bajwa as the new Chief of Army Staff.

"We look forward to continuing our work with Pakistan's elected leaders, with Lieutenant General Qamar Javed Bajwa, and with the Pakistani military to advance our shared counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism goals for Pakistan and the region, and to enable Pakistani authorities to honour their pledge to prevent the use of Pakistan's soil for terrorist attacks against its neighbours," it said. :rotfl:

It also congratulated the outgoing Chief of Army Staff General Raheel and his family upon the conclusion of his three-year appointment.

"General Raheel has been a respected partner throughout his tenure as Army Chief. We appreciate his leadership in combatting terrorism in Pakistan and across the region, and his support for Pakistani civilian governance and institutions. He has demonstrated an impressive commitment to the peace, security, and well-being of the Pakistani people," it said. :lol:

The embassy also congratulated the new Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff Committee Lt Gen Zubair Hayat. It also recognised the dedicated service of retiring General Rashad Mahmood whose place General Zubair will fulfil.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by rkhanna »

The seven Rangers were now part of ‘CFT Tarbela’, or cross-functional team—a small U.S. force comprised of CIA personnel, Delta/DEVGRU operators, and regardless of the CIAs numerous petitions, members from the Intelligence Support Activity, whose contention and mutual loathing with the CIA has been raging since the unit’s inception. This clandestine task force would be directed by Operational Control Element Islamabad, or simply ‘OCE Ibad’, the main CIA strength in the country.

In that three-month training period, the Rangers ran the Pakistani commandos through the same type of train-up one could expect as a new member to the 75th right before a deployment. Live-fire exercises, fast-roping, direct-action raids, air assaults, detainee handling, sensitive-site exploitation, room clearing, night shooting, and countless other advanced light-infantry tactics.

Forward advising in the frontier provinces side-by-side, the way our forces have operated with Afghans and Iraqis, was virtually unheard of in Pakistan. To any reader, it sounds as if the program was a success both operationally and politically—bringing two rivals together. Unfortunately, this story concludes with an adverse finale. Spies, technically state-sponsored double agents from Pakistan’s ISI, clandestinely embedded themselves with the commandos during the Ranger-led training. CIA case officers discovered reliable intelligence that proved Pakistani ISI agents were traveling to Taliban training camps in Waziristan and Quetta and disseminating what they learned to the enemy.

The CIA pulled the plug on the Ranger-Commando program, and many of the U.S. personnel redeployed stateside. Agency personnel who were part of the drone program remained in Tarbela for years to come. In September 2007, months after the Ranger advisors left, an officer with the Ranger-trained Pakistani commandos walked into the Tarbela chow hall and detonated his explosive vest, killing 19 of his fellow commandos and injuring dozens more. Multiple CIA and NSA personnel were reported to have been present during the attack.

https://sofrep.com/37934/75th-ranger-re ... -pakistan/
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by sum »

In September 2007, months after the Ranger advisors left, an officer with the Ranger-trained Pakistani commandos walked into the Tarbela chow hall and detonated his explosive vest, killing 19 of his fellow commandos and injuring dozens more. Multiple CIA and NSA personnel were reported to have been present during the attack.
So even Amir-khan lost many assets in the SSG self-kaboom of 2007?

Wonder why this didnt repeat after that one single incident given that the Momeens were only more and more radicalised in all these years and brutal FATA/WANA wars were on all these years leading to more griveances.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya_V »

Simple no Americans present
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya G »

Sharing a post from DFI with respect to difference in equipment makeup of IA and PA infantry battalions.

- machine guns (magazine fed vs belt fed, HMG vs LMG)
- snipers/marksmen rifle (IA has much more emphasis on latter)
- RCL (static vs mobile)
Kunal Biswas, post: 1238548, member: 4163 wrote:Their approach is more defensive then offensive, Indian Army on other hand focus primarily on mobility of solider and demand on light equipment.

The difference is clearly can be seen in even small formation of both armies, One use MG3 other use bren MG, In Indian Army individual solider from squad use bren and carry its ammunition on its own, On other hand Pakistani Army have MG crew even in squad who carry its ammunition and other equipment, Their squad is around Machine guns crews and platoon is around MG squads, The idea is to provide suppressive fire in interlocking firezone, ( MG-3 is not a accurate weapon but a very fast firing gun design for suppresive fire, It eats away 100rnd belt in just 4 burst within 5 secs, It also need to change barrel when used very frequently, Crew always carry spare barrels with them, In combat changing barrel and feeding ammunition frequently is a big headache for any MG crew ).

The whole idea of defense is around MGs, Other mostly in squad are busy supplying ammunition to MG for continues firing and when this MG and its crew is taken out, The other member of squad basically have nothing else to do but have two options in sense of task and as well as physiologically.

1. Stand ground and defend with issued rifle.
2. Retreat and regroup.

Mostly the latter is always in motion, As seen in Kargil war.

=================

Indian Army on other hand issues rifle to every soldier and LMG / RL / Mortar to specific soldiers depends on situation, When in combat everyone in the squad aims unlike one or two from other side with just MG, Even with Bren a solider can snipe ( shoot at someone from a hiding place, especially accurately and at long range) , So even one or three are down other will continue the battle both in defense and offense.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Bart S »

^This is interesting.
Their approach is more defensive then offensive, Indian Army on other hand focus primarily on mobility of solider and demand on light equipment.
So despite all the talk of Ghazwa-e-Hind, it looks like the only thing that they are prepared for is Ghazwa-e-Pind, in their own pind.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Austin »

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by vaibhav.n »

Paki Armour Programmes IDEAS 2016 :mrgreen:


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Paul »

^PA tactics look like they are derived from Wehrmacht tactics of WWII where the infantry squad ops was centered around the MG34 MMG and the MG42 later.

As I stated earlier, their BAT teams look to be derived from the WWI stormtrooper innovation to gain local advantage in trench warfare.

So they have thinkers in their infantry schools too.
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Post by Paul »

HK MG3 is a first gen descendant of MG42. It would make sense for them to replicate Wehrmacht tactics as well.

After all their officer class looks at themselves to be the modern juncker class too.

So it all neatly fits in.
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