Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

[svinayak]

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... orts-sipri

Pakistan possesses more nuke than India, reports SIPRI.

There is no way Pakistan will match India in terms of conventional weapons. It looks like their strategy is stop any Indian advances by using battlefield tactical nuclear weapons. A dangerous detterent because one never knows where any conflict will escalate once nuclear weapons are used but they don't really have much of a choice, do they ?

If India is keeping up with PRC warhead how is this possible

[eklavya]

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-ne ... orts-sipri

Pakistan possesses more nuke than India, reports SIPRI.

June 5, Stockholm: The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) said that Pakistan was developing a number of new short-range ballistic missiles which suggests that it may use ‘battlefield nuclear weapons’ resulting in these warheads being deployed on a “launch-ready posture”.

Pakistan presently possesses 90 to 110 nuclear warheads compared to India’s 80 to 100 n-warheads, says a report by SIPRI

"Pakistan’s development of new short-range ballistic missiles suggests that its military planning has evolved to include contingencies for the use of ‘battlefield nuclear weapons’. This may lead to nuclear warheads being deployed on a more launch-ready posture”.

There is no way Pakistan will match India in terms of conventional weapons. It looks like their strategy is stop any Indian advances by using battlefield tactical nuclear weapons. A dangerous detterent because one never knows where any conflict will escalate once nuclear weapons are used but they don't really have much of a choice, do they ?

If they use a single nuclear weapon (no matter how big or how small) to target Indian forces or Indian territory, that will be the end of Pakistan. Pretty simple choice.

[AbhiJ]

At least 15 suspects have been detained over mysterious illnesses, which usually include mass fainting episodes, that have struck scores of schoolgirls in Takhar province almost daily for the past two weeks.

"The regional spy agencies, namely ISI, are behind it. They are trying to sabotage the Shanghai Conference and the success of Afghan education," National Directorate of Security spokesman Lutfullah Mashal told reporters.

Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency is widely reviled in Afghanistan, where it is accused of fomenting the Taliban insurgency due to its historic links to the Islamist Afghan militia that ruled from 1996 to 2001.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ldren.html

[Hiten]

how credible are these reports? Germany in talks with pakistan to sell them Dolphin-class subs.
details in this article are incorrect, but if just the gist is considered

. Der Spiegel disclosed that Germany is conducting negotiations with Pakistan over the sale of nuclear submarines

Apparently the time for the signature of the agreement with Pakistan is approaching.

Germany sized the opportunity to unofficially announce the new deal with Pakistan.

If Germany will supply dolphin submarines also to Pakistan, the latter would have assured its second strike capabilities against Israel.

http://spyghana.com/world-news/germany- ... ddle-east/

another

German media reports about ongoing negotiations between Germany and Pakistan on the sale of nuclear submarines.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.434583

[Aditya_V]

What is the cost of those Dalphon, Funny how Pakis find money easy to fund Ereeye, F-16 , M-9 , Babur, Raad and what not.

[aniket]

With the help of Uncle Sam and running their country into the ground.

[Rahul M]

dolphins aren't nuclear.

[NRao]

Pakistan does not find the money, it is others who need strategic help from them that do. We have complained about the US playing games and hyphenations, USN at Chittagong, etc. Now it is China AND Russia that will fill that vacuum left by the US.

India still watches from the side lines.

Russia and China eye role in Afghanistan and Pakistan

With the United States and Nato set to leave Afghanistan over the next two years, power is the region is shifting. Writer Ahmed Rashid reports on Russia and China's attempts to capitalise on the decline of American influence in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

As United States troops prepare to leave Afghanistan in 2014, a major regional shift is underway.

With the prospect of a decline in US influence in the region in sight, Russia and China are reaching out to Pakistan and Afghanistan in a bid to improve economic ties and to secure their southern borders against the spread of Islamic fundamentalism.

The presidents of Afghanistan and Pakistan, Hamid Karzai and Asif Ali Zardari, are in Beijing this week for the summit meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), which is led by China and Russia.

With the US set to leave Afghanistan and bad relations between Islamabad and Washington DC continuing to fester, the SCO has taken on a new lease of life.

Economic help

China and Afghanistan will sign a strategic agreement at the SCO, elevating their relationship as China shops for raw material and oil exploration contracts in mineral-rich Afghanistan. China has already secured some oil and copper mining concessions.

Until now, China has carried out few development projects in Afghanistan and is unlikely to help fund the country's army and police, as the US would like.

But all that could change once the Americans leave. Xu Feihong, China's ambassador to Kabul says that ''China is the most reliable friend of Afghanistan".

Likewise Russia, both through the SCO and bilaterally, is willing to offer major help to Afghanistan such as improving the Salang Tunnel highway, the critical link road between Kabul and the north which the Soviets built in the 1970s.

After years of poor relations, Russia has also taken a major initiative with Pakistan.

Moscow sent its special representative and long-time regional expert Zamir Kabulov to Islamabad to suss out what the Pakistanis want and offer economic help, such as refurbishing Pakistan's one and only steel mill, built with Russian help in the 1970s.

Mixed messages

China is already Pakistan's closest and most reliable ally.

In early June, Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi visited Islamabad and pledged to stand by Pakistan in its tensions with the Americans.

He pleased the government by echoing Pakistan's refrain that the world should recognize Pakistan's ''huge sacrifices'' in the war on terror and help safeguard its sovereignty, rather than question Pakistan's intentions as the US has done recently.

Moreover, China is hoping to exploit Afghanistan's mineral resources once the war is over and knows that Pakistan could play a crucial role. It could well hire Pakistani companies as junior partners in its mineral explorations.

Until now, Mr Zardari has been looking to China to help bail him out of Pakistan's severe economic mess but China never gives cash, loans, budgetary support, development funds or humanitarian funds to other countries like Western governments do.

Instead, it carries out major projects that help the recipient but provide strategic spin offs for China too.

Despite his words of support, officials say Mr Yang also warned Pakistan's leaders not to break with the US and to avoid taking hardline positions regarding the US and Nato in Afghanistan.

For the past seven months, Pakistan has refused to reopen the main route for Nato supplies that runs from Karachi to the Afghan border. Talks with the US on the issue have so far failed.
Fearing fundamentalists

Both China and Russia will be happy to see US troops leave Afghanistan, but they are equally worried about the Taliban and other extremist groups penetrating Xinjiang province in southern China and the Central Asian republics, whose national security is very much in the hands of Russia.

China is deeply concerned by the long-running crisis in Pakistan, fearing that it may lead to a strengthening of Islamic fundamentalism.

Beijing is worried that any threat to Pakistan from internal insurgency or secessionist movements would only bolster its regional rival India.

So, for the first time ever China has held high-level discussions with US officials that have focused on the crisis in Pakistan and how both countries could nudge Pakistani leaders to do the right thing.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai (L) and Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari are being courted by Russia and China

The US is also asking the Chinese help persuade the Pakistani military to be more helpful in Afghanistan and end the sanctuaries the Taliban enjoy.

Both the Chinese and Russians are worried about the threat posed by the Taliban and al-Qaeda themselves.

In an unprecedented move, over the past six months Chinese officials issued three strong statements rebuking Pakistan for not reining in Uighur extremists who are training with Pakistani extremist groups and fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Uighurs are Chinese Muslims from Xinjiang province and some are involved in an independence struggle against China.

'Tectonic shift'

Pakistan's military rushed to try and detain the Uighur militants. According to diplomats at the United Nations, China has been quietly telling the Pakistan military that it must end havens for all militant groups on its soil - a message that has been publicly taken up by Nato.

Russia also makes no bones about the fact that it sees Pakistan as harbouring Central Asian militant groups such as the Islamic Movement for Uzbekistan and Islamic Jihad.

These groups - which have been based in Pakistan's tribal areas - are now trying to enter Tajikistan and Uzbekistan from their new bases in northern Afghanistan. Diplomats at the UN say they are being aided and abetted by militant Pakistani groups based, including Lashkar e-Toiba.

Russia's envoy Zamir Kabulov, who has long experience with the Pakistani military's backing of Islamic fundamentalist groups (he served in the Soviet embassy in Kabul in the 1980s), raised this issue with the Pakistani government.

Russia sees itself as the guardian of the Central Asian republics and although it is anxious to see an end to US bases in that region, its resumption of the sole security role in Central Asia will depend on how Pakistan deals with such extremist groups.

If Pakistan can take steps against home-grown extremism, it will do much to convince Russia and China that it deserves help to move out of the American orbit.

But with the long-running political and economic meltdown in Pakistan, there is little chance that the government can act soon.

Nevertheless, a shift in the tectonic plates in the region is taking place. Pakistan and Afghanistan can either take quick advantage of these changes or revert back into chaos.

[Hiten]

there appears to have been a fire a pakistan's Kahuta facility. 65% damage being said

Last month's fire at a 'security installation' in Kahuta, Pakistan, did not grab world headlines but it presents a scary picture, according to an assessment by the Indian government.

Kahuta is the hub of the neighbouring country's nuclear weapons programme as it houses a uranium enrichment plant and a short-range missile fabrication facility.

On alert: India has been wary of Pakistan's nuclear power since last year's terror attack near the Karachi nuclear facility, pictured above

India has always been wary of Pakistan's nuclear weapons falling into the hands of extremist groups, particularly in the backdrop of last year's terror attack near Karachi's nuclear facility.

Highly placed government sources claimed that a multiprogramme research institute managed and operated under close scrutiny of the Pakistan army was damaged in the fire.

Fire fighters took two hours to control the blaze. The extent of damage was 65 per cent, which is substantial and a cause for concern, sources said.

Yet, no word is available on the incident till date from the Pakistani establishment, except that lightning may have been responsible for it.

The Indian assessment also points to a series of incidents that took place in and around Kahuta around the same time.

Days after the fire, two terrorists were arrested from the area near the Kahuta Research Laboratory.

One of them is reportedly from Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and the other is from the Bajaur tribal agency, sources reported.

via http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... ckles.html

perhaps 65% of the section that caught fire & not of the whole facility. 2 hrs not long enough for the latter possibility, IMO

[eklavya]

Dolphin subs cost $1bn a pop. If the Pakis get them, its as good as giving the technology to the Chinese. EU embargo stops China from buying these subs from Germany. Also, given that India has a NFU doctrine, why would the Pakis need an assured second strike capability at such vast expense. China on the other hand has a NFU doctrine. If Germany trys to sell these subs to Pakistan, Uncle Sam will take a very close interest, obsessed as they are with countering China's A2/AD (anti access / area denial) naval capability.

[Johann]

If you go to Google Earth or Google maps you can see that Kahuta has a Northern Production Area ( 33°37'17.81"N 73°22'43.21"E) and a Southern Production Area ( 33°36'42.66"N 73°22'58.93"E) which are separated by a little over a kilometre.

If the damage assessments (65%) are accurate then I'd wager the loss of the older, larger Southern Production Area and immediate surroundings.

[alexis]

The normal Dolphin sub design has limited cruise missile capacity and is older compared to the U 209/212 designs. It is the new Israeli version which has added new 650 mm torpedo tubes that can carry cruise missiles of 1000 km+ ranges. Does Pak have underwater launch capability through torpedo tubes and operational missiles? I dont think they have that capability now. So addition of Dolphin is not as bad as it would seem at first. However it is unlikely with their economy at dire straits.

[Singha]

it would make eminent sense for the pakis to leverage their infra and training and build 3 x MESMA Agosta90 subs than run after marlins or dolphins. cheaper and better chances of delivery on time.
but perhaps they need a line of credit to be offset against rice, wheat, textile exports and the french are not willing hence the search for the next guy to mug.

the germans are already in bed with the chinese as far as power plants and machine tools go.

[member_23370]

US will not let this sale occur. Pakis will probably acquire 3 chinese subs on loan but I doubt they have money for anymore. IN needs to ramp up scorpene production to 10-12 and Induct SSGN/SSN's as soon as possible. Let HSL and L&T build them in parallel. MSL and another private yard should handle the SSK's.

[arun]

Former Corps Commander Bahawalpur, Adjutant General of the Pakistan Army and Chairman Army Welfare Trust, Lt Gen (retd) Imtiaz Hussain found dead.

Intelligence agencies and police of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan have started investigation to ascertain if the cause of death was suicide or murder.:

Lt-Gen Imtiaz found dead at home

Property tycoon Riaz Malik who is currently embroiled in a suo moto hearing initiated by the Supreme Court of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for stating that he had been “blackmailed” by the Chief Justice of Pakistan’s son into making large payoffs is implicated in the death of Lt. Gen. (Retd) Imtiaz Hussain:

Bahria Town owner Malik Riaz accused of murder

Apparently in his capacity as Adjutant General of the Army, Imtiaz Hussain was the ultimate boss of the Defense Housing Authority (DHA) Islamabad, which was linked in a business deal with Riaz Malik.

Looks like the unformed jihadi’s of the armed forces were seriously on the take:

Second Death Attributed to Malik Riaz's National Scandal:Lt Gen [retd] Imtiaz Hussain apparently killed himself

[nits]

Ties sour further: Pakistan acts smug, US gets furious

As the relationship between Pakistan and the United States tumbles through one of its roughest patches ever, yet another round of talks has failed to secure an agreement on reopening the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation's supply routes into Afghanistan.

The talks failed in the wake of Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani's refusal to meet US Assistant Defence Secretary Peter Lavoy, who had travelled to Pakistan to try to resolve the dispute. The refusal prompted Washington to immediately withdraw negotiators from Islamabad, amid reports that the Barack Obama] administration has finally warned Pakistan that it could be declared an enemy country in case Islamabad doesn't come to terms with the United States.

Though they are like old married couple who keeps on giving false warning to divorce each other but this time it looks a bit serious...

[joygoswami]

PAF MIRAGE Crashes In Balochisthan, Pilot Safe.

KARACHI: A Pakistani fighter jet crashed in the south of the country Tuesday while on routine training but the pilot ejected safely and there were no casualties on the ground, an air force official said.The French-built Mirage jet took off from the Pakistan Air Force’s Masroor Base in Arabian Sea port city of Karachi and crashed near the town of Uthal in Balochistan, air force spokesman Squadron Leader Mohammad Nadeem told AFP.

[svinayak]

Ties sour further: Pakistan acts smug, US gets furious

Though they are like old married couple who keeps on giving false warning to divorce each other but this time it looks a bit serious...

But this drama reporting is too much. State relations are much more polished.
This servant treatment is repugnant

[keshavchandra]

Pakistan Boasted of Nuclear Strike on India Within Eight Seconds
The nuclear warnings came during a visit by Blair to the Indian subcontinent after the 9/11 attacks in 2001. Campbell was told about the eight-second threat over a dinner in Islamabad on 5 October 2001 hosted by Pervez Musharraf, then Pakistan’s president.
Campbell writes: “At dinner I was between two five-star generals who spent most of the time listing atrocities for which they held the Indians responsible, killing their own people and trying to blame ‘freedom fighters’. They were pretty convinced that one day there would be a nuclear war because India, despite its vast population and despite being seven times bigger, was unstable and determined to take them out.

“When the time came to leave, the livelier of the two generals asked me to remind the Indians: ‘It takes us eight seconds to get the missiles over,’ then flashed a huge toothy grin.”

[ashish raval]

^^ Bol Bachan, ch$@&apa. Dogs try to act as lion by showing false teeth to elephant who can trounce dogs any second.

[keshavchandra]

Indian, Pakistani Commanders to meet in bid to end bloody LoC skirmishes
Source: The Hindu

Brigade-level Commanders of India and Pakistan will meet on the Line of Control in Poonch on Saturday, hoping to defuse 10 days of bloody skirmishes which have left six soldiers dead and led to artillery deployment close the Line of Control (LoC) for the first time in a decade.

The meeting between 10 Brigade Commander T.S. Sandhu and his Pakistani counterpart, 6 Sector Commander Amir Sohail Ashraf, comes a week after Pakistan rejected an appeal for a Colonel-level flag meeting, sources in the Army said.

The fighting began on June 11 after Border Security Force soldier P.K. Mishra was shot dead by a sniper. Soldiers at the post, where Mishra was stationed, code named Kranti, returned the fire.

Two days later, soldier Harvinder Singh was shot dead in firing on a nearby post, code named Kripan. Four Pakistani soldiers, intelligence sources told The Hindu, were also reported to have been killed.

New Delhi-based military sources said the Army had pushed 155-millimetre Bofors guns into firing positions along the LoC from Mendhar to Poonch, fearing further escalation.

Islamabad has not offered any official comment on the clashes. However, Pakistan shut down the Chakan-da-Bagh border outpost for local trade this week and suspended the weekly bus service from Poonch to Rawalakote.

The bus service was inaugurated by United Progressive Alliance chairperson Sonia Gandhi in 2006, and has been seen as a key element in the India-Pakistan peace process.

No clear account has emerged of what led to the skirmishes, which came as Indian troops were engaged in rebuilding counter-infiltration fencing that runs across the LoC.

Pakistan has in the past complained that Indian troops engage in unprovoked firing across the border when the fencing disintegrates in the winter snowfall.

India says its aggressive posture is necessitated by the Pakistan Army’s continuous backing for groups of infiltrating jihadists.

“For all the good optics on India-Pakistan relations,” says Sushant Sareen, an expert at the Institute for Defence and Strategic Analysis, “the reality is you have one army deployed on hair-trigger alert, expecting infiltrating jihadists, and another on hair-trigger alert looking for gaps in its adversary’s defences. It is no surprise at all the clashes like these take place.”

“From our point of view,” a senior military official in Poonch said, “the Pakistanis were testing our resolve. We responded; not with a sledgehammer, perhaps, but with a large hammer.”

Even though a ceasefire went into force along the Line of Control in 2002, small-scale skirmishes have continued unabated.

Last year, for example, saw fierce fighting along the LoC in Karnah, some 140 km from Srinagar.

Highly placed military sources told The Hindu that the fighting began after two Indian soldiers were beheaded in an attack on a forward position by a jihadist unit. Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers. Intermittent clashes continued through the year, into December.

In July 2008, four Pakistani troops and an Indian solider were reported killed in fighting near Handwara.

Like the ongoing clashes in Krishna Ghati, the skirmish began with a dispute over the construction of new fortifications around an Indian position, code named Eagle Post.

Earlier that year, BSF constable Bhanwar Lal was killed in a clash along the LoC in Rajouri, while 8 Gurkha Rifles’ Jawashwar Lami Chhame was killed when jihadists shelled an Indian forward post in Poonch.

For the most part, these clashes have remained localised, with both armies seeking to contain the fallout.

In September 2009, Pakistani military commanders gave their Indian counterparts packets and sweets on the occasion of Eid, even as their soldiers were exchanging fire along the Krishna Ghati sector, as well as on Pargwal island, near Nikowal in Jammu. Like now, a meeting of Brigade commanders had to be summoned to defuse the crisis.

Decline in fatalities

However, fatalities have sharply declined compared to the pre-ceasefire period. In 1998, 78 Indian soldiers and 78 civilians were killed in 4,314 incidents of firing, Jammu and Kashmir government data obtained by The Hindu shows. In 2002, 114 soldiers and 36 civilians died.

Last year, though, only two soldiers were killedand one civilian injured, in 29 fire-exchanges on the LoC. This year, 19 clashes have taken place.

[Aditya G]

Pakistan Mujahid Force:

They are equivalent of our Terretorial Army. I have noted following Battaltions:

Code: Select all

640 Mujahid Battalion
647 Mujahid Battalion
653 Mujahid Battalion
654 Mujahid Battalion
655 Mujahid Battalion
801 Mujahid Battallion
815 Mujahid Battalion
834 Mujahid Battalion

Anybody else have a better list?

[tsarkar]

Indian, Pakistani Commanders to meet in bid to end bloody LoC skirmishes Highly placed military sources told The Hindu that the fighting began after two Indian soldiers were beheaded in an attack on a forward position by a jihadist unit. Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers.

There was some angst in the forum at that time why India doesnt respond. We could have blasted with our Arty guns, but the payback required a personal visit. We just skip the publicity and straining our vocal chords.

[vishvak]

Indian, Pakistani Commanders to meet in bid to end bloody LoC skirmishes Highly placed military sources told The Hindu that the fighting began after two Indian soldiers were beheaded in an attack on a forward position by a jihadist unit. Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers.

There was some angst in the forum at that time why India doesnt respond. We could have blasted with our Arty guns, but the payback required a personal visit. We just skip the publicity and straining our vocal chords.

Just pointing out. Everytime pakis do that, it should be dragged to international fora for starting it to begin with. If no one listens then make an issue of that too.

Pro-actively pakis, and their silent supporters, should be pushed into some corner or the other. Not discounting any action at all. Any retaliation post-pakistaniyat should be detached from diplomacy on it.

[Gaur]

Militants kill 13 Pakistan troops, behead 7.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... 99fb8987f7

[Singha]

from above link. there is very chance of people to people movement across indo-pak border spreading this polio....a problem we have worked hard to eradicate.....

In another development elsewhere in the troubled region, a top Pakistani Taliban commander in South Waziristan said Monday that he would not allow any polio vaccinations in his territory until the U.S. stops drone attacks in the region. Maulvi Nazir said in a statement emailed to reporters that all organizations doing immunizations should stop immediately.
This follows an announcement earlier this month by another militant commander in North Waziristan also banning polio vaccinations. Pakistan is one of only three countries in the world where polio is still endemic. The virus usually infects children living in unsanitary conditions, attacks the nerves and can kill or paralyze.

[Aditya_V]

Can we have list of how Indian BSF and Soldiers have been beheaded by the Barbarians, and pictures.

Feelings of bereaved soldiers?

After Beheading our Soldiers, I cant count on them as Humans, this is uncivilized, While the crowd at Lutyens, NGO and Bollywood can afford to Paapi Jappis,its our men who have to face these barbarians with 2 hands tied behind thier back.

[Surya]

Are you mad??


What sort of asinine request is that??

Just reread your request and reconsider

[SBajwa]

I see nothing wrong with the request.

1. 4th Jat Regiment Captain Saurabh Kalia and his platoon of Sepoys Arjun Ram, Bhanwar Lal Bagaria, Bhika Ram, Moola Ram and Naresh Singh., were tortured and executed without any provocation in peacetime by naPakistanis.



2.

[Aditya G]

We do not need a list of beheadings.

However, we should not forget the mistreatment of our troops or mutilation of their mortal remains.

[Yogi_G]

I dont see anything wrong in it as well. Should serve to boil the blood of our youth and realize the kind of sacrifices our brothers have done to protect this nation.

[arun]

X Posted from the TSP thread.

The Military dominated “Deep State” of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan seems to have successfully penetrated the US Government funded United States Institute of Peace ( USIP)

USIP publishes an article authored by a citizen of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Moeed Yusuf, that presents the argument that dealing harshly with the uniformed Jihadi’s of the military and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) is not a good idea.

Pretty amazing that a government funded and controlled agency of a country held up by some here on BRF as a role model of macho toughness that India needs to emulate, namely the US, actually funds propaganda of a country, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in this case, to act gently against a country that is actually killing American’s :

Fixing Pakistan’s Civil-Military Imbalance: A Dangerous Temptation

Meanwhile Kamran Shafi writing in the Express Tribune which is published in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, voices his disagreement with the USIP report:

Another rubbish USIP report!

[svinayak]

This is really what I was repeating before.
US media has been propagating Pakistan ideology worldwide and continues to
support the jihad ideology. Now even US defence publications doing it


--

Not only this - they have been projecting Pakistan as a big nation and power in the media for the last 20 years. This media based image making has been done in a sophisticated way.
We see that Paki analysts talk as if it is a continental power and it has responsibility over a large region.

[member_22906]

rohitvats, whats your mail ID? Wanted to share some inputs

[rohitvats]

-SELF DELETED-

[member_20067]

Creepy PIA ad

[sarabpal.s]

This best they can do......

[svinayak]

Is it a 1977 ad

[Kartik]

Wow ! might have been the inspiration for the 9/11 attacks..

[Aditya_V]

So 9/11 was in the works prior to 1977??