Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 16 Jun 2017 03:10

No actually Thunder is doing the job really well.
Actually lets put down our other hat away and acknowledge something.

PAF and IAF have the same lineage.
PAF is professional too and has learnt to do the job really well and continuously increase the budget allocated to it even if by meagre proportions.

The bottom tier of the PAF was F6 and other other chinese aircraft maybe A5 not sure.
They set out on a 30 year journey and I picked up this journey in the 90s when the F7 was being sought.
They went from F6 to F7 by huge numbers being imported to replace them.
The F6s were flogged as advanced trainers and hours were saved off other aircraft types such as F16 and Mirage.
Basic and Intermediate were taken on the F6 for pilots from all squadrons and a/c types.

Now they quickly absorbed the F7 and stood up more F7 squadrons than the ones being replaced.
In parallel to this they initiated the Thunder adventure with the Chinese on a parallel track.

These guys (PAF) must have a damn good road map of what they want to do and when they want to do.
I think lot of short term objectives were sacrificed in the favour of medium and long term objectives.

As a result
F7 will be retired in the Future and any remaining hours in the airframe will be slurped up by Squadron leaders and allocated to noobs.
Thunder will take over all light and bottom tier tasks.
F-16 will occupy Interdiction and Superior Air Combat Spectrum.

For a airforce whose 15 to 35% budget is a bakeesh from ZOO ESS EAY (America) I tip my hat off to them.
They have done well.

Last not least I tip my hat off to the current government that has finally forced Amreeka to take the 80% discount off the F-16s.
This should have pushed the pakistanis to go for the J-10 however it seems the PAF is unimpressed with it and may not go for it.
Looks like they will go for the FC-31 stealth fighter.

What a revelation eh if the PAF gets its Stealth Fighter before us... oh wait the thunder did beat Tejas to operational service.

Why are we so poor at cutting the Gordian Knot ?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Jun 2017 05:05

DRDO has last mile hiccups, which are eternally long.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 16 Jun 2017 06:40

Khalsa, I think you are giving them a bit more credit then they deserve. It's the same air force which squandered money on redundant/duplicate system purchases, like Erieye and ZDK-03. One can assume bribery, just like their prized Augasta assembly line.

They (PAC) are also the one who wants to build everything from an android tablet to fighter aircraft. Incidentally tablet is the only thing they assemble from raw parts, for rest of the products they have a green spray gun facility.

Even this first export order to Myanmar, of their beloved bunder, is being fully assembled and exported from a Chinese factory.

Pound for pound, Su-30 is more Desi then Bunder. Which incidentally is already operational and in huge numbers with IAF. They don't have a practice similar to LCA, for God's sake let's not compare these programs any more.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jun 2017 07:15

Khalsa wrote:No actually Thunder is doing the job really well.
Actually lets put down our other hat away and acknowledge something.

PAF and IAF have the same lineage.
PAF is professional too and has learnt to do the job really well and continuously increase the budget allocated to it even if by meagre proportions.
<snip>

What a revelation eh if the PAF gets its Stealth Fighter before us... oh wait the thunder did beat Tejas to operational service.

Why are we so poor at cutting the Gordian Knot ?

One of the reasons I oppose cricket with Pakistan is that many Indians end up talking about defence issues like a cricket match and the result of the last match.

Pakistan acquired supersonic fighters and air to air missiles before India did. Pakistan got 4th gen fly-by-wire fighters before India did. That ultimately meant diddly squat. Induction is not like me buying Maruti and my neighbour buying Ferrari. Aircraft have to be integrated into a system. No one needs to make too much of the JF 17 using rhetoric about a shared history. He got it first/ I got it later is like feeling jealous of the legendary Sharmaji whose son is always getting highest rank in IIT JEE/NEET

Anyone who reads accounts of the PAF from people like Sajad Haider will know that the PAF and Pak army did not cooperate and the PAF had to fight its own separate battles and commissioned someone to write a glowing history.

I object to nonsensical conclusions that claim that just because the two air arms have the same heritage they are somewhat on par with Pakistan having a bit of an upper hand. This is the same way we refer to cricket with Pakistan "Oh we are good but their bowling is a threat. A hat tip to them"

I disagree.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Jun 2017 09:47

During war you don't know what the exact enemy capability was, in fact during Kargil in 99 there were many press reports especially originating from Pakistan that PAF F-16's could fire Aim 7F sparrows and all PAF aircraft from F-16's to F-6's were rearing to go, Retired PAF officers who moved after Pakistan in 2010 confirmed this was BS and thier fleet of F-16's had very poor serviceability during Kargil and after a few defensive sorties moved away from Skardu as their spares were short and those Fighters would be needed to defend th Punjab mainland in times of war and the F-6/f-7/ M-V fleet had no radar.

While there is some transparency in the operational fleet of IAF SU-30's which went as low as 45%, till date the PAF does not admit F-16 losses since 1994- but now they claim that thier fleet is only 75 after receiving 18 Block 50/52 C/D, 25 Older Aircraft , 13 Jordanian F-16's in addition to the original 32, indicating thre have been 13 unreported losses. We still dont know many are operationally ready.

Similarly regarding the JF-17 Thundar, I dont think PAF had a choice, the Chinese forced thier aircraft on them with token assembly in PAC Kamra for H&D purposes. We know from Bahrain show that the JF-17 could complete vertical loops(unlike what LCA has done in Jan 17 Bahrain airshow) and had to pull away and turn in the other direction, one wonders in a turning Fighter fight what impact this will have, you probably can't get into WVR turning fight with agile fighters and the ability to dodge incoming missiles. TIll no public BVR firing, LGB , aerial refuelling. It seems even the Block II is similar to Block I Fighters. So while it makes numbers its capability might be of F-7pg aircraft.

Even the MIg - Bision might be better. Again there info on its serviceability, STR etc.

If Finance or politics sided them PAF would have probably gone for Western type or MIg 29 versions but looks they had to take what the Chinese decided and gave.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jun 2017 13:21

JF-17 for Myanmar Seen Flying in China
by Chen Chuanren
- June 15, 2017, 8:48 AM

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... ying-china

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Jun 2017 13:47

So much for the Pakis claiming JF-17 Thundar equivalent to LCA, other than screwdrivergiri there is nothing Pakistani in it.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 16 Jun 2017 14:25

Only thing pakis deserve credit for is their ability to beg shamelessly

.. They are world leaders in that..Builtup and structure of PAF has more to do with lack of other options and wish of FOURFATHERS than planning..Unless they are able to throw 8-10 bundaars per MKI , they are pretty useless against IAF..

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Jun 2017 18:37

The f-ing pakis are creaming over themselves at PDF like they are in league with Unkil, Roos, E-You and Cheen onlee now that they sold a few of THEIR fighter jet.

I need a LCA sale NOW to spit in their faces. Stoopid babus making my porki trolling much harder.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 16 Jun 2017 21:56

Wajahat's video. watch 10:56. They are using 14.5mm AA guns on the LOC as well. but they appear to have a created a two front problem where non existed earlier. Thank Allah for that.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 17 Jun 2017 03:38

chola wrote:The f-ing pakis are creaming over themselves at PDF like they are in league with Unkil, Roos, E-You and Cheen onlee now that they sold a few of THEIR fighter jet.

I need a LCA sale NOW to spit in their faces. Stoopid babus making my porki trolling much harder.

Dont you remember they defeated one superpower, they are already in the league.

You mean foreign sale?
As much as everyone here (or rather most) would like a foreign sale of LCA. I would prefer first an extra line of Tejas and death of the stupidity that's going on in the name of single engine fighter jet.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 17 Jun 2017 22:16

In this Pakistani video,

When asked how their commando platoon is different form the rest of the battalion, all the guy said was they have individual communication, more ammo and grenades.

Question : Is this true for the Indian Army Ghatak Platoons? Or do they have better weaponry

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 17 Jun 2017 23:19

It looks like they are watching the changes in IA and applying it there. They may have implemented Ghatak platoon concepts.

In another of Wajahat's videos he shows 'special air services group' which is their version of Garud force.

How long before they start their version of Rashtriya Rifles in Kpk and Balochistan?

satya · Post by **satya** » 18 Jun 2017 00:34

Paul wrote:It looks like they are watching the changes in IA and applying it there. They may have implemented Ghatak platoon concepts.

In another of Wajahat's videos he shows 'special air services group' which is their version of Garud force.

How long before they start their version of Rashtriya Rifles in Kpk and Balochistan?

Paul they will never be able to field RR type formation in their army . Its much to do with TSPian psyche . Aviator glasses ( F-16 fantasy ) , commando gear ( all black ofcourse ) & riding tanks ( 65 dash across punjab border) look dashing as if riding an arabian horse / camel along Mohamed's army tearing kafirs apart. There was a video of a PAF nco shouting & abusing PoK residents during post earthquake rescue ( tells much about their tolerance level ) . None of this attitude holds any water in RR . SO they did the easiest thing ie turn TFTAs in battalion as 'kammandos' .
Can someone explain if its normal for soldiers standing in first line to wear identity /special access badge when meeting COAS . I don't recall this in IA but why TSPA had to do this specially at such forward areas where units are already vetted . Or is it GHQ not sure of one of its soldier/ nco/ officer turning rogue ?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 18 Jun 2017 00:37

Indian Ghatak platoons atleast the ones in RR are much more TFTA and better equipped than these paki cammandus. Cant say anything about training levels.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Jun 2017 02:44

shiv wrote:
Khalsa wrote:No actually Thunder is doing the job really well.
Actually lets put down our other hat away and acknowledge something.

PAF and IAF have the same lineage.
PAF is professional too and has learnt to do the job really well and continuously increase the budget allocated to it even if by meagre proportions.
<snip>

What a revelation eh if the PAF gets its Stealth Fighter before us... oh wait the thunder did beat Tejas to operational service.

Why are we so poor at cutting the Gordian Knot ?
One of the reasons I oppose cricket with Pakistan is that many Indians end up talking about defence issues like a cricket match and the result of the last match.

Pakistan acquired supersonic fighters and air to air missiles before India did. Pakistan got 4th gen fly-by-wire fighters before India did. That ultimately meant diddly squat. Induction is not like me buying Maruti and my neighbour buying Ferrari. Aircraft have to be integrated into a system. No one needs to make too much of the JF 17 using rhetoric about a shared history. He got it first/ I got it later is like feeling jealous of the legendary Sharmaji whose son is always getting highest rank in IIT JEE/NEET

Anyone who reads accounts of the PAF from people like Sajad Haider will know that the PAF and Pak army did not cooperate and the PAF had to fight its own separate battles and commissioned someone to write a glowing history.

I object to nonsensical conclusions that claim that just because the two air arms have the same heritage they are somewhat on par with Pakistan having a bit of an upper hand. This is the same way we refer to cricket with Pakistan "Oh we are good but their bowling is a threat. A hat tip to them"

I disagree.

LOL Shiv
checkout the cricket score today my friend. The Pakistanis seems to have won.

Their bowling instead of threatening us, tore through our middle order my friend.
You have the right to have your opinion my friend and I have the right to have mine.
I can only hope that you do not consider me to defeatist by considering my enemy's strengths and successes.
If you do rest easy, I am not a defeatist. If not then let me say what I want to say.
And by all means feel free to disagree

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 19 Jun 2017 10:24

But Khalsaji, As far as I know there is no independent audit of PAF by either pakistani military or its govt. So how can you analyse it and gauge the performance of PAF. Hence the analysis you are doing is just based on your assumptions.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Jun 2017 11:54

Dear Darshan and all
Maybe my old age, but the merry go around of procurements and RFI and RFP and RF whatever drive me up the wall.

How long did it take for our beloved Artillery to procure its first 155 mm gun after Bofors Scandal.
Holy crap.... I think Rahul Gandhi was in 2nd class.
Gen SunderJi was chief AFAIR.

These time from concept to delivery needs to be reduced somewhat.
We are useless at cutting the Gordian knot.

My analysis of PAF was not the analysis of what %age of thunders remain in the air vs hangar.
It was the decision to induct and place them in the life of PAF.

You know who is the best at doing that in India,
Indian Navy.

We are poor at cutting the gordian knot, look the single engined fighter drama, it has begun again sir.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 19 Jun 2017 13:15

PAF had done well to maintain squadron strength despite all procurement challenges. This has primarily been done through:

1. Second hand purchases of existing types (mirages and F-16)

2. Sustained F-16 procurement through decades

3. JF-17

Now PAF is basically an air defence oriented force. They do not even have a large chopper fleet as that is with PA.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 19 Jun 2017 14:59

Aditya G wrote:PAF had done well to maintain squadron strength despite all procurement challenges. This has primarily been done through:

1. Second hand purchases of existing types (mirages and F-16)

2. Sustained F-16 procurement through decades

3. JF-17

Now PAF is basically an air defence oriented force. They do not even have a large chopper fleet as that is with PA.

Aditya, maintaining squadron strength does not automatically equate to better warfighting capability. All it points to is somewhat better procurement system.

The above was my point

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 19 Jun 2017 19:54

Pakistan manufactures a good portion of the JF-17, but it doesn't have the testing facilities to validate new variants, which is why the first aircrafts of all new variants (Block II, two-seater, Myanmese version) are made in China.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 19 Jun 2017 20:06

DavidD wrote:Pakistan manufactures a good portion of the JF-17, but it doesn't have the testing facilities to validate new variants, which is why the first aircrafts of all new variants (Block II, two-seater, Myanmese version) are made in China.

David please provide some more details around it? As in what parts, what % by value/components, if they are available

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 19 Jun 2017 20:19

Here's pic of the share of workload on the fuselage, I don't know the specifics.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 19 Jun 2017 21:22

I presume green means Made in TSP and red part is in China? I think the above pic may refer to final assy...even then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have one part of fuselage assemble/fabed in China and the other part put together in Pak unless that is how they are considering different main sub-assemblies i.e. the fuselage itself is made of two main sub-assy!

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 20 Jun 2017 13:14

DavidD wrote:Here's pic of the share of workload on the fuselage, I don't know the specifics.

I think green paint on green part was painted green by paki experts who are masters in green painting everything which is not green..Rest all is cheeni maal..

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 20 Jun 2017 14:00

Zynda wrote:I presume green means Made in TSP and red part is in China? I think the above pic may refer to final assy...even then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have one part of fuselage assemble/fabed in China and the other part put together in Pak unless that is how they are considering different main sub-assemblies i.e. the fuselage itself is made of two main sub-assy!

Yea green is made in Pakistan, as in manufactured. Final assembly is generally all done in Pakistan, design and prototyping are done in China though, as well as most of the subsystems minus the engine.

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 20 Jun 2017 15:45

The engine is manufactured in TSP? Or merely assembled?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jun 2017 16:10

Chinmay wrote:The engine is manufactured in TSP? Or merely assembled?

Engine is neither CHina or Pakistan 100% russian

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 21 Jun 2017 01:34

^^ correct sit.
The engine is Rd-33 , the engine for Mig-29 and Thunder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimov_RD-33

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 21 Jun 2017 09:21

DavidD wrote:Here's pic of the share of workload on the fuselage, I don't know the specifics.

David i think facepalm is an understatement for this image. I couldnt see this due to some issues at my office net. When I am seeing it at my home laptop, i feel like smashing the chinese laptop with a sledgehammer.
What is this a paper plane? This stuff might fly well on Pakistani or chinese forums. BTW i do not notice there is no parachute on plane, how does it stop or is it conforming to Jihadi IEDology of pakistan with AoA?
Just to highlight what i was looking forward to..something of this sort, even if it was in chinese or some sorta grainy picture

However, I guess my suspicion is true, Pakistan does what it does best, paint it in green

**************
corrected the image link

chola · Post by **chola** » 21 Jun 2017 11:05

The RD-93 variant of the RD-33 to be exact. And the Russians are very happy to sell these engines to TSP.
http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.com/2015/1 ... es-to.html

I'm happy too because the RD-93 can't be any more reliable than the same engines in our MiG-29s and the Blunder only has one engine. lol

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jun 2017 17:32

Khalsa wrote: LOL Shiv
checkout the cricket score today my friend. The Pakistanis seems to have won.

Their bowling instead of threatening us, tore through our middle order my friend.
You have the right to have your opinion my friend and I have the right to have mine.
I can only hope that you do not consider me to defeatist by considering my enemy's strengths and successes.
If you do rest easy, I am not a defeatist. If not then let me say what I want to say.
And by all means feel free to disagree

A deep knowledge of cricket does not amount to an assessment of the Pakistani armed forces. I tried to say that in my earlier post but you seem to have used a cricket analogy again as if it is relevant. It is not. Your being defeatist or not is not my problem - but "my problem" is to state a side of the story that I hold to be true that you have not stated.

Inducting numbers of aircraft in a hurry does not necessarily mean much without considering many other factors, including uptime, serviceability. integration into the overall air defence/offence environment of the air force. You have quoted only the quick induction and have passed that off as praiseworthy and I dispute that.

I was particularly upset by your making the claim that the shared history makes the air forces similar. Let me quote from my own review of Paki Air Commodore Sajad Haider's book and ask you to say more about the shared history and similarity of the PAF and IAF.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Books ... alcon.html

Haider tops off his book with an expose of the extreme corruption that has gripped Pakistan. The first hint of kickbacks to middlemen in Pakistan comes early on in the book when a wealthy Pakistani middleman was present for the trials of Hispano-Suiza rockets by the PAF in the late 1950s. But Haider singles out the Zia ul Haq regime and the period after that for its extreme corruption where kickbacks were “received on every commercial deal” (page 388). A US $ 890 million deal with France for Submarines was inflated to US$ 1.2 billion for the kickbacks. In a later deal shoulder fired Mistral SAMs were hurriedly acquired on the pretext that an Indian and Israeli attack was imminent on the Kahuta nuclear complex, despite the fact that such missiles would be useless in the event of such an attack.

Haider says that his inspiration to write this book came after the attack on the Indian Parliament and he saw the depths to which the country he loved and served loyally, Pakistan, had sunk. Overall the book has more plus points than negatives going for it and it really is essential reading about Pakistan. I would give the book a score of 4 on 5 for the value it adds to the growing body of literature on a little studied and deeply dysfunctional country, Pakistan.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Jun 2017 21:50

ArjunPandit wrote: What is this a paper plane? This stuff might fly well on Pakistani or chinese forums. BTW i do not notice there is no parachute on plane, how does it stop or is it conforming to Jihadi IEDology of pakistan with AoA?

One doesn't need to parachutes to stop a plane. It is useful to decrease the landing run, or in cases where the runway may be slippery, due to rain, sleet or ice. For example, Norway is the only country that I know of which has gone for drogue chutes on the F-35A.

chola wrote: I'm happy too because the RD-93 can't be any more reliable than the same engines in our MiG-29s and the Blunder only has one engine. lol

This is what the media speculates. The engines on the newer Mig-29s are doing quite well. The Mig-29Ks are facing structural issues.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 22 Jun 2017 02:46

shiv wrote: I was particularly upset by your making the claim that the shared history makes the air forces similar. Let me quote from my own review of Paki Air Commodore Sajad Haider's book and ask you to say more about the shared history and similarity of the PAF and IAF.

My friend, my intention was to never hurt you. So if you are hurting, I apologise but I cannot and will not take back what I said because I believe in it.
Like you revere the IAF and other forces, I too revere the forces so please allow me to explain saar.

My intent behind showing common parentage was to highlight the following.
The fact they had the same parentage as us allows them to do well just enough so as not to fail.

The RIAF lessons allowed both these forces to give rise to pilots who became instructors and were capable.
I know this because the Middle East, Indonesia, South East Asian countries sought and got instructors from both these air forces.

I am not saying PAF is corruption free, I am saying PAF is alive and doing well despite being immersed inside a dysfunctional country , thanks only to its RIAF parentage else it would have been inept like any other 3rd rate airforce and would have been relegated to helicopters and VVIP duties like the Burmese Air Force.

My very favourite professor from IIT Madras would say to us,
"you know why the Pakistanis were so quick to get the Nuclear Bomb, cause they are misguided Indians"

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2017 23:12

Command and Control System of Pakistan

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2017 23:24

Interview with Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jul 2017 23:34

First Video - The guy with the binoculars at 0:48 needs to stay a little away from the missile launcher. nice video though.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 06 Jul 2017 00:54

https://www.dawn.com/news/1343410/coas- ... sr-missile

COAS attends successful 'training launch' of short-range Nasr missile

Chief of Army Staff (COAS) Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa witnessed the "training launch" of short-range surface-to-surface ballistic missile 'Nasr' on Wednesday.

Nasr is a high-precision weapon system with the ability to be deployed quickly, the military said..

https://mobile.twitter.com/OfficialDGIS ... %2F1343410

"Nasr Puts 'cold water' on 'cold start'!" COAS

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jul 2017 11:04

Video of Nasr launch yesterday

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Jul 2017 13:21

^ highly accurate for a ballistic rocket?