Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 01:39

JEMenon once mentioned how some folks are playing false flag RW supporters. They accuse everyone else of being unpatriotic, that sensible nationalists get disgusted.

Standard case in point here. There are many dubious elements to the entire single engine fighter procurement. Time was BRF would have a robust discussion on this. The likes of the Mongol, Badar, Rkoshy, Rupak - many others would all chime in. Later JaiS, Harry & many others stepped in.

Now, per some self proclaimed "patriots" to merely point out severe flaws in an acquisition program is to be "accusing bla-di-bla".

And folks wonder why serious posters often give the forum a pass.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 01:40

Karan M wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Pakistani threads seem to bring out Pakistaniyat out of every human
some of us get it out early in the morning.

others wallow in it & after a time, they can't seem to distinguish between pakistaniyat (thought police! huzoor ki ijjat!) and living in an adult society where people critique their Govt.

You sure turn into a little girl when I criticise ADA/HAL.
Why do you think only GoI,IAF can be critiqued and not ADA/HAL ?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 01:42

Karan M wrote:JEMenon once mentioned how some folks are playing false flag RW supporters. They take such asinine & extreme positions, accusing everyone else of being traitors, of being unpatriotic, that sensible nationalists get disgusted.

Standard case in point here. There are many dubious elements to the entire single engine fighter procurement. Time was BRF would have a robust discussion on this. The likes of the Mongol, Badar, Rkoshy, Rupak - many others would all chime in. Later JaiS, Harry & many others stepped in.

Now, per some self proclaimed "patriots" to merely point out severe flaws in an acquisition program is to be "accusing bla-di-bla".

And folks wonder why serious posters often give the forum a pass.

Harry passed away long back.
Let that not dissuade you from bringing him in to win an internet argument.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Jul 2017 01:45

nirav wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Why is that you always have problem with indigenous programs?

Anyways both of you just stop this nonsense and move forward
No problem brother.
Anguish is the correct word.
The talk of AMCA baffles me when we aren't even sure when the current LCA program will complete.

But that is not for this thread.Pakis making big talk is not a reason to enter a collective dhoti shiver and engage in Rona dhona... They have been talking and talking about all and sundry.. J10, then J10b then C and now the 5th gen.

What chola Saar said actually makes sense. If the Chinese induct the j31 whatever, the pakis ain't getting it.

If they don't, my money is on the J31 being a black Bandar.

Either ways it doesn't warrant a come let's abuse Parrikar moment.

What Karan M expressed was also called 'Anguish' of our own 5G programs, where is Rona dhona? He never said they will have 5G planes so we have to go and import immediately

Your selection of words doesn't show 'Anguish' but sounds more like you are mocking AMCA program

Both LCA and AMCA are not paper planes, you need time to develop and test. In the case of LCA it was delayed by various factors and a US company also played its part and its the same one from whom you want IAF to import

ADA cant start to build AMCA with out the MOD approval for full scale development and you are talking (mocking) about its FOC

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Jul 2017 01:48

Karan: Let it be. He needs an audience. Empty vessels make the most sound. Let him have the last word if that is what makes him happy. The sad reality is they have no importance any place else in life, so they come onto an internet forum to act smart.

You and me - we can be accused of being harsh with him. But Kakarat put it best - Why is that you always have problem with indigenous programs?. When Kakarat says this - who has no vested interest in seeing one win over the other - you know nirav is full of it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 01:48

nirav wrote:You sure turn into a little girl when I criticise ADA/HAL.

when have you criticized ADA/HAL? you call that moaning & whining you do criticizing?

not one serious post about tech, about supply chain issues, about manufacturing, about support, about pgm management snafus..

just bellyaching.

and as regards a little girl - you are one

but most of the ones on this forum are gents, perhaps that's why you are upset at the fact we don't get your feels?

Why do you think only GoI,IAF can be critiqued and not ADA/HAL ?

lol, the last time i criticized GOI, IAF, ADA AND HAL.. you were busy throwing a hissy fit on how unpatriotic it was to do so.

loony tunes you are..

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 01:50

Kakarat ji,
With all due respect, I did make a lot of noise single handedly in the feedback thread about shameful terms like import pasand.

I find it baffling, me using a harsh tone for xyz desi fighter jet upsets many.
But it doesn't upset many when they call the airforce import pasand.

Hence I assumed that it's okay to criticise anyone/anything.. facts be damned. This exactly is what is currently happening on board.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 01:51

nirav wrote:Harry passed away long back.
Let that not dissuade you from bringing him in to win an internet argument.

here you go with your morality play again.

my reference to prior posters was about how awesome the discussion was. we didn't always agree on everything but by heck we used to have an amazing time discussing.

that's the difference - we have a handful of good posters who post rarely & then guys like you who drown out good posts with your sh!te and b0llocks.

if you can't understand that.. then look at the mirror.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Jul 2017 01:51

Karan M wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Pakistani threads seem to bring out Pakistaniyat out of every human
some of us get it out early in the morning.

others wallow in it & after a time, they can't seem to distinguish between pakistaniyat (thought police! huzoor ki ijjat!) and living in an adult society where people critique their Govt.

Karan M and nirav please stop this useless fight, this is "Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc"

Mods please start a "Personal Fight" thread

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 01:54

Rakesh wrote:Karan: Let it be. He needs an audience. Empty vessels make the most sound. Let him have the last word if that is what makes him happy. The sad reality is they have no importance any place else in life, so they come onto an internet forum to act smart.

You and me - we can be accused of being harsh with him. But Kakarat put it best - Why is that you always have problem with indigenous programs?. When Kakarat says this - who has no vested interest in seeing one win over the other - you know nirav is full of it.

Rakesh - hey you know me.. and anyone can see my posts and how over the past many years, i really don't get much into brawls . every once in a while somebody goes after me & i just return the favor.

but seriously, there is a limit to putting up with tripe & these wannabe patriots like nirav who are busy actng oh so superior... heck, they bring nothing in terms of effort or knowledge to the forum, so why exactly should we listen to these jerks?

i don't go running to the admins either, so fairs fair. i should get to treat him the way he behaves with others.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 09 Jul 2017 01:56

karan/nirav,
why this in morning ..and why of all the forums here...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 01:57

Kakarat wrote:
Karan M wrote:
some of us get it out early in the morning.

others wallow in it & after a time, they can't seem to distinguish between pakistaniyat (thought police! huzoor ki ijjat!) and living in an adult society where people critique their Govt.
Karan M and nirav please stop this useless fight, this is "Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc"

Mods please start a "Personal Fight" thread

Kakarat - don't get too upset. This needs to be done so that this chap backs off from being thought police. If a serious discussion on Pak armed forces is needed, then the last thing required is fake bravado claiming all iz well when looking at what they have and what we do.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 01:59

ArjunPandit wrote:karan/nirav,
why this in morning ..and why of all the forums here...

this thread is perfect for flushing out the pakistaniyat etc, better than the more serious "desi" threads which were being trolled anyhow..by our self proclaimed patriot, loudly using the "dont be a traitor" megaphone.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 02:07

Kakarat wrote:What Karan M expressed was also called 'Anguish' of our own 5G programs, where is Rona dhona? He never said they will have 5G planes so we have to go and import immediately

Your selection of words doesn't show 'Anguish' but sounds more like you are mocking AMCA program

Both LCA and AMCA are not paper planes, you need time to develop and test. In the case of LCA it was delayed by various factors and a US company also played its part and its the same one from whom you want IAF to import

ADA cant start to build AMCA with out the MOD approval for full scale development and you are talking (mocking) about its FOC

Bingo!

See, you nailed it. You have no vested interest in twisting words so you exactly got what I meant.

PRC has a simple program - fund, fund local programs & import selectively.
PAF, beg, borrow, steal - get something ASAP.
India - we are constantly in a trap of our own making wherein we want to play with the big boys and constantly go for big ticket imports and then end up running short of funds. AMCA, LCA et al don't show anywhere near the kind of manic obsession they deserve & our program with Russia is "will we, won't we".

Pointing this out is angst & dismay at how blase we can be. The last thing required is to be given sermons on patriotism by our wannabe Saudi thought police on morality of criticizing infallible GOI.

This very year, IAF has not got its Revenue budget (spares, fuel oil, regular ops) budget cleared by GOI. Its capex budget is also lower than projected.
In this milieu, anyone sensible would question the crazy procurement of YET ANOTHER fighter type, when domestic ones are not sufficiently funded (if they are, what's happening to Kaveri? What's the status on LCA Mk2) & a proper superior twin engine fighter inducted after extensive trials was summarily capped at 36 units (why just 36??) and we are talking of the 2nd fighter being "assembled" in India, with no clear answer of TOT, consumables made in India. And one of the contenders is a clear rival to the LCA & the other, comes with political baggage & is operated by an adversary AF for decades (in a variant). All this while, the rest of the world is saving money for a proper 5G program... why is our procurement so dysfunctional.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Jul 2017 02:08

nirav wrote:Kakarat ji,
With all due respect, I did make a lot of noise single handedly in the feedback thread about shameful terms like import pasand.

I find it baffling, me using a harsh tone for xyz desi fighter jet upsets many.
But it doesn't upset many when they call the airforce import pasand.

Hence I assumed that it's okay to criticise anyone/anything.. facts be damned. This exactly is what is currently happening on board.

Definitely the person who loves import and thinks that foreign things even if vintage is better than indigenous ones will get angry with such terms

This in my Last Post on this in this thread

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 02:16

Kakarat wrote:
nirav wrote:Kakarat ji,
With all due respect, I did make a lot of noise single handedly in the feedback thread about shameful terms like import pasand.

I find it baffling, me using a harsh tone for xyz desi fighter jet upsets many.
But it doesn't upset many when they call the airforce import pasand.

Hence I assumed that it's okay to criticise anyone/anything.. facts be damned. This exactly is what is currently happening on board.
Definitely the person who loves import and thinks that foreign things even if vintage is better than indigenous ones will get angry with such terms

This in my Last Post on this in this thread

Like I said, facts do not matter.
Brochure mugging self proclaimed experts dishing out patriotism cerficates.

On one hand we have HAL/ADA who's is tasked with BTA,IJT,LCA.
Have they met any of their self stated deadlines?
All this bluster about indegenous capability, ALL critical technologies of the three projects above are imported.

Yet,if I cast doubts about their ability to deliver on the AMCA who's design isn't frozen yet, I'm the bad guy.

And on the other, we have the airforce who have no option but to import to meet operational training and fighting needs.

How hard is it to recognise the genuine operational needs ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 02:22

Right, right here is Mr "brochure mugging self proclaimed expert"

All this bluster about indegenous capability, ALL critical technologies of the three projects above are imported.

you heard it here folks. everything critical on BTA, IJT, LCA is imported..

guess we better wind up the CLAW team at NAL, the actuator team at ISRO, LRU manufacturers in India...all the hardwork in UX by IAF test pilots was imported... they thought in englees so it was from UK onlee.

And our Muttawa was busy giving everyone patriotism certificates.

ps: for facts don't matter https://lh6.ggpht.com/-26Zg6DhphHI/UrxI ... ia-JPG.jpg

this generally gets our TFTA types into a bother. they are usually very upset that the above exists and then come back with "aiyoo engine, ejection seat, radar is imported" but its ok if we get all-imported f-solaah

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 02:29

Actually i wonder... do we have a brainwashed case of the TFTA kind...

... the arguments are very similar... the behavior also very similar... "Dont you dare criticize the _insertwhateverthoughtfortheday_"

your (sniff, sniff) Tejas, BTA, IJT is all imported, the hanoods and russkies gave you everything...

the troll behavior also similar... "you are a goil".... and then the constant attempts to play up the treason, patriot angle.

and then = the clincher - the f-solaah ijj all powerful

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 02:29

Karan M wrote:Right, right here is Mr "brochure mugging self proclaimed expert"

All this bluster about indegenous capability, ALL critical technologies of the three projects above are imported.
you heard it here folks. everything critical on BTA, IJT, LCA is imported..

guess we better wind up the CLAW team at NAL, the actuator team at ISRO, all te dime a dozen LRU manufacturers in India...all the hardwork in UX by IAF test pilots was imported... they thought in englees so it was from UK onlee.

And our Muttawa was busy giving everyone patriotism certificates.

Yes.
The above mentioned 'technologies' allow the aircraft to fly 100%
Nothing else is needed.

So what if just the engines are foreign.no big deal.
We will hire indegenous brochure mugging expert to pass gas for the BTA,IJT and LCA to fly.

Sight to behold.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 02:33

Muttawa ji, you said ALL critical technologies are imported.

You were caught bluffing and TFTA brochure bashing.

End of story. Please don't inhale your own gas and then jibber jabber, it makes you even more hilarious. See below:

Thanks for playing to the script:

this generally gets our TFTA types into a bother. they are usually very upset that the above exists and then come back with "aiyoo engine, ejection seat, radar is imported" but its ok if we get all-imported f-solaah

and you respond:

So what if just the engines are foreign.no big deal.

So predictable you are

PS: Whyfore didnt you mention radar, ejection seat and russkie-hanood axis?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 02:41

You called me a Paki bot and then edited your post.
Why so magnanimous?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 02:44

nirav wrote:You called me a Paki bot and then edited your post.
Why so magnanimous?

no i just edited the reference to your being on PDF.. because i was not sure you are from PDF or generally just TFTA in antics... i do remember you were the type who was some member of some TSP fora and then last time you were whining and complaining about that too... that you were outed as a PDF/Pak def member on BR and how bad you felt ..

lol, i did you a favor... but hey, now you asked.

PS: Muttawa ji, will you be prescribing lashes for us because we don't wear your prescribed ankle length jib-jab?

PPS: isn't f-solaah better than Sukhoi?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 02:49

I am a member on pakdef with the same ID.
So ?
I'd posted about it in nukkad too.whats you point?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 02:56

well it sure explains the pakdef style behavior and the f-solaah lovaria, the tejas fixation and so many more things.

you might have as well said it right at the beginning and made us all understand you so much the better.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 03:03

Karan M wrote:well it sure explains the pakdef style behavior and the f-solaah lovaria, the tejas fixation and so many more things.

you might have as well said it right at the beginning and made us all understand you so much the better.

Are you genuinely a royal chutiya ?
The drama by you is for everyone to see.

I would like to ask you again, who the ****** do you think you are?mugging brochures gives you a right to issue patriotism cerficates and call people you disagree with pakis ?
I wish you had called me a Paki to my face.
I'd drive your sorry ass into the ground.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:05

Oh btw, i expect you to have played fully to the script and done a lot of virtue signalling and vociferously complained to the admins about how bious and pure you are, how they must and should ban ze bad eebil opponent, yada yada...

No need to 'fess up either. Its expected.

Thats exactly how the pak fora lot are. After all the snide abuse, when that bunch gets it back, always run & act all doe-eyed

But boy o boy, does it feel good to talk to trolls in their own langwidge.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:11

nirav wrote:
Karan M wrote:well it sure explains the pakdef style behavior and the f-solaah lovaria, the tejas fixation and so many more things.

you might have as well said it right at the beginning and made us all understand you so much the better.
Are you genuinely a royal chutiya ?
The drama by you is for everyone to see.

Abe chup khatmal... tu jo hain, sab nahin hain..

I would like to ask you again, who the ****** do you think you are?mugging brochures gives you a right to issue patriotism cerficates and call people you disagree with pakis ?

bhaunk mat... you were busy giving people patriotism certificates and acting very bious...and yeah, you squack like a duck, walk like a duck...after spending way too much time amongst ducks..

You were busy using TSP debating tactics and are now unable to even wriggle out of that despite copious amounts of pindi channa. You mugged up some f-solaah brochure and suddenly became a great proponent of "operational stuff".

I wish you had called me a Paki to my face.
I'd drive your sorry ass into the ground.

[/quote]

See spoken like a TSP type again... showing your specific perversions on full display ..

High time you faced the fact, you just got told what you behave as.

PS: frothing at the screen counts as a big win only on Pakdef or wherever you infest

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 03:14

Karan M wrote:
nirav wrote:
Are you genuinely a royal chutiya ?
The drama by you is for everyone to see.
Abe chup khatmal... tu jo hain, sab nahin hain..

I would like to ask you again, who the ****** do you think you are?mugging brochures gives you a right to issue patriotism cerficates and call people you disagree with pakis ?[/uote]

Chup bewakuf... you were busy giving people patriotism certificates and acting very bious...and yeah, you squack like a duck, walk like a duck...after spending way too much time amongst ducks..

You were busy using TSP debating tactics and are now unable to even wriggle out of that despite copious amounts of pindi channa.

See spoken like a TSP type again... showing your specific perversions on full display..

High time you faced the fact, you just got told what you behave as.

PS: frothing at the screen counts as a big win only on Pakdef or wherever you infest

Okay cool.
Address de tera.
Batata hu. Let me see what are you made of.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:16

kya bataaega ki tu kitna bada bewakoof hain?

you are a cartoon man... complete and total Pdef tool.

ullu jaisi harkate. ullu jaisa bhartav. aur doosro ko gutter talk ke bare main lecture.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:18

what next, will you send snapshots of how important you are on some pak-fora? they give each other status like "original think-tank".

will you fly your f-solaah and bomb the BRF server?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 03:19

Karan M wrote:kya bataaega ki tu kitna bada bewakoof hain?

you are a cartoon man... complete and total Pdef tool.

Seriously.
Gaand me goo hai toh Bata.
Call me a Paki you son of a bitch.
Say that to my face, I'll burst your bubble.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:23

x posting before you edit away your birtuous posts

nirav wrote:
Karan M wrote:kya bataaega ki tu kitna bada bewakoof hain?

you are a cartoon man... complete and total Pdef tool.
Seriously.
Gaand me goo hai toh Bata.
Call me a Paki you son of a bitch.
Say that to my face, I'll burst your bubble.

dude, you behave like a TSP propaganda con artist. deal with it. projecting your own inner names on others will not work.

it just shows what a third rate kind you are.

we all figured out what you are, your behavior is open for everyone to see... and lets face it tu saala PDF type hi hain.

aur bata tejas ke bare main, f-16 ke bare main.

ps: shove your fake outrage. i am done with your fake virtue signalling.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 03:26

Karan M wrote:dude, you behave like a TSP propaganda con artist. deal with it. projecting your own inner names on others will not work.

it just shows what a third rate kind you are.

we all figured out what you are, your behavior is open for everyone to see... and lets face it tu saala PDF type hi hain.

For a bol Bachchan Amitabh Bachchan, kyun gaand fatt Rahi hai teri ?
Address de, say it to my face and then let's see who's the keyboard warrior.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:28

and gents here we have it - our PDF type in full glory.

all the snide jibber jabber about fanboys, fake patriotism certificates and what not. and te maha gyaan about "gutter language and what not"..

and see the quick recourse to the real gutter behaviour using faux outrage ..."he called me a Baki!!" when pointed out that debating styles (wherefore is all Indian stuff imported) is typically PDF style..

this is the usual crap now we are seeing on BRF from these so called patriots... and "serious discussion" will happen with these chaps around.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 03:31

Karan M wrote:and gents here we have it - our PDF type in full glory.

all the snide jibber jabber about fanboys, fake patriotism certificates and what not. and te maha gyaan about "gutter language and what not"..

and see the quick recourse to the real gutter behaviour using faux outrage ..."he called me a Baki!!" when pointed out that debating styles (wherefore is all Indian stuff imported) is typically PDF style..

this is the usual crap now we are seeing on BRF from these so called patriots... and "serious discussion" will happen with these chaps around.

We have a saying in mumbai.
Gaand me nahi goo aur hagne chale Juhu.

That's what you have displayed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:32

nirav wrote:
Karan M wrote:dude, you behave like a TSP propaganda con artist. deal with it. projecting your own inner names on others will not work.

it just shows what a third rate kind you are.

we all figured out what you are, your behavior is open for everyone to see... and lets face it tu saala PDF type hi hain.
For a bol Bachchan Amitabh Bachchan, kyun gaand fatt Rahi hai teri ?
Address de, say it to my face and then let's see who's the keyboard warrior.

teri to itni fati beta, ki to TSP forums main jaake pure din rehta hain. maze kar waha.

aur kitna bolu tujhe...... and who the heck would get a loafer like you lounging around their place... you stink up the forum enough & you want to stink up other places too?

jaa so jaa. morning main, pakdef pe tell them all f-sollah will come and you will win all your wars.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:33

nirav wrote:
Karan M wrote:and gents here we have it - our PDF type in full glory.

all the snide jibber jabber about fanboys, fake patriotism certificates and what not. and te maha gyaan about "gutter language and what not"..

and see the quick recourse to the real gutter behaviour using faux outrage ..."he called me a Baki!!" when pointed out that debating styles (wherefore is all Indian stuff imported) is typically PDF style..

this is the usual crap now we are seeing on BRF from these so called patriots... and "serious discussion" will happen with these chaps around.
We have a saying in mumbai.
Gaand me nahi goo aur hagne chale Juhu.

That's what you have displayed.

Gu tu tere mooh main hain. I don't know whether that saying in mumbai applies.

Maine to bas itna bola ki tere mooh main goo ....tune to dimag ka goo bhi dikha diya.

Off you go.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 03:35

Say all of this to my face you bitch.quit hiding behind the screen.
I promise to travel wherever your sorry ass is.
Dekhte hai fir.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jul 2017 03:37

nirav wrote:Say all of this to my face you bitch.quit hiding behind the screen.
I promise to travel wherever your sorry ass is.
Dekhte hai fir.

reminds me suspiciously of NLI threats in 1999.
congratulations though on putting all of this online. any more examples of tactical brilliance you wish to share?

do this na...oh so tough boy... put up your name & address & any more details (PAN card? AADHAR?) plus all the threats you wish to make.

it would be a brilliant plan. go ahead.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jul 2017 03:41

Karan M wrote: frothing at the screen counts as a big win only on Pakdef or wherever you infest

Bada hekdi marana tu ?
Address dene se kyun gaand fatt Rahi hai?