Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2016 06:31

I guess its ok being a pakistan thread.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2016 06:32

Aditya G wrote:JF-17 has very light, LML Vespa style landing gear!


comes from the chinese exp with multiple domestic fighter projects. looks good too.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 08 Feb 2016 10:06

Singha wrote:I guess its ok being a pakistan thread.


bad idea. the host losing bandwidth can change the image, or introduce malware.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2016 10:49

Um ok , just post the URL then ....

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 11 Feb 2016 11:44

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

Lawmaker Blocks Deal to Sell F-16s to Pakistan

By Gordon Lubold
Feb 10, 2016 5:48 pm ET
WASHINGTON —

………………………….. Sen. Bob Corker (R., Tenn.), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told Secretary of State John Kerry in a letter that he couldn’t allow the Obama administration to use taxpayer funds to support the sale of the jets.

He cited attacks by the group known as the Haqqani network, saying the government in Islamabad continues to provide haven to its leaders.

Mr. Corker, who recently returned from his fifth trip to Afghanistan, said the Pakistani government should be welcome to purchase the F-16s with its own money. The planned sale through the State Department’s foreign military sales program, announced last year, aims to reward Pakistan for its efforts against militants.

“I do not want U.S. taxpayer dollars going to support these acquisitions,” Mr. Corker said in an interview. “While we’re spending tremendous amounts of U.S. dollars and certainly tremendous sacrifice in our men and women in uniform and by other agencies, they are working simultaneously to destabilize Afghanistan.”

Mr. Corker said he was using his authority as a committee chairman to object single-handedly to the proposed sale.

“I fully understand that our relationship with Pakistan is both complicated and imperfect,” Mr. Corker wrote in the Feb. 9 letter to Mr. Kerry obtained by The Wall Street Journal. “Cooperation with Pakistan is important and has achieved some of our interests.”

But, he said, Pakistan’s activities are “immensely problematic” and contribute to the notion that Pakistan is a “duplicitous partner, moving sideways rather than forward in resolving regional challenges.”

A spokesman for the Pakistani Embassy in Washington, Nadeem Hotiana, said Pakistan has been engaged in a sustained military campaign against terrorism and called suggestions that the country was contributing to the Haqqani network’s destabilizing role in Afghanistan unfortunate.

“F-16s have proven to be the most potent vehicle for conducting precision strikes against terrorists,” Mr. Hotiana said in an emailed statement. “We understand that the deal has not been blocked but there are reservations regarding the financial aspect. We intend to continue engaging constructively with the U.S. side to address specific concerns,” he added. ……………………………..


Here:

Wall Street Journal

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 13 Feb 2016 08:53

US approved the sale of 8 Lockheed F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan - Pentagon

WASHINGTON:
The US government on Friday said it had approved the sale to Pakistan of eight F-16 fighter jets built by Lockheed Martin Corp, radars and other equipment, in a deal valued at $699 million.

The Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency said it had notified lawmakers about the possible sale on Thursday. It said the sale would improve Pakistan’s capability to meet current and future security threats.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Feb 2016 11:32

So what is total No of F-16's US has sold to Pakistan, 40 original, 32 F-16 Block 15 upgraded to Block 30 Statndard, 18 F-16 C/D, 15 Ex Jordaian F-16 upgraded to Block 30 plus 8, 113 F-16's. How many have crashed apart from the 8 upto 1992. AFter which Pakis claim none have crashed? Does Pakistan have a fleet of 97 plus now 8 F-16's?? What is the config of latest 8 for 699 Mil, Block 52 or AESA Radar equipped Block 60's?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 13 Feb 2016 13:13

it is refreshing to see MEA publicly denounce arms sales to Pakistan. NDA government is definitely better on national security matters.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_28756 » 14 Feb 2016 03:09

Aditya_V wrote:So what is total No of F-16's US has sold to Pakistan, 40 original, 32 F-16 Block 15 upgraded to Block 30 Statndard, 18 F-16 C/D, 15 Ex Jordaian F-16 upgraded to Block 30 plus 8, 113 F-16's. How many have crashed apart from the 8 upto 1992. AFter which Pakis claim none have crashed? Does Pakistan have a fleet of 97 plus now 8 F-16's?? What is the config of latest 8 for 699 Mil, Block 52 or AESA Radar equipped Block 60's?

They should have 76 and plus 8. 84 machines in total when the new ones come and I am sure they still begging for more surplus anywhere they can find and upgrade.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2016 05:19

Assuming a (high) 80% serviceability, that's 67 airframes.

We'll have 270 Su-30s. At the current 60% level (assuming rise of 5% over last years 55% as aim was 70-75% by 2015 end), that's 162 airframes.

At 70% level that will be ~180 airframes.

Shows important it is to get our Su-30 fleet up and running asap.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 14 Feb 2016 05:27

The 29/2000 upgrades will add numbers faster than serviceability rising. That aspect has middlemen involved.

29s and 2000 will occupy their all-but-newest 16s just fine. But it is lame to be even contemplating that fizzlya alone even presents a threat. It does. Cant be denied.

In the days of increase amrikan commercial bhaichara, the bahriya has gone from 5 functional dinghies ex londonistan, to now 2 missile craft, 5 submarines, and 10+ other major surface craft, totalling 100+ harpoons/silkworms. That is now a more than coastguard force, not even counting the p3s.

There has to be a stick along with the arms market carrot. Otherwise sellers will forever keep converting coalition support funds into 16s.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2016 05:34

>>>The 29/2000 upgrades will add numbers faster than serviceability rising. That aspect has middlemen involved.

Actually, no.

The Su30 MKI is a proven aircraft with some issues but mostly, its spares management which has a problem as rest seem manageable (engines got fixed, FBW issue is rare and once in a while, the EW issue can be fixed).

The Mirage 2000 and 29 are India specific upgrades.

They too will have teething problems.

So, the Mirage 2000 upgrade is deliberately staggered to some extent, but the true capability of the 29 will be known in a while.

The best way to make things A-ok is to get the Su-30 MKIs high uptime.

A 10% increase from 60 to 70% is around 27!

And most achievable by just reducing the AOG portion not even those in deep repair/HAL.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2016 05:46

>>In the days of increase amrikan commercial bhaichara, the bahriya has gone from 5 functional dinghies ex londonistan, to now 2 missile craft, 5 submarines, and 10+ other major surface craft, totalling 100+ harpoons/silkworms. That is now a more than coastguard force, not even counting the p3s.

I like that they have major surface craft. That's Brahmos fodder. Otherwise they would have been a naval terrorist force with just subs. But as you imply, we have to take out the SSM carriers first before our land infra gets hit.

IMO, its PAs layered defences which will be hardest to crack.

If Parrikar gets IAF serviceability up and IA's ammo+arty woes solved he will be the most effective def min we've had and there will be a sea change in our conventional capability.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 14 Feb 2016 06:03

Land armies have an inherent weakness. the visible supply chain umblical chord. And on top of that massive corruption due to numerous small items. PA will be the easiest to take on if the fuse is lit.

The other two services have and take on capital items. without freebies, it would be another north korea. with the freebies, its a wannabe turki. huge huge difference

It will be 20 years of no donations before the present gifts become long in the tooth. And there arent going to be another 20 years of pressler.

I say india should start regular scheduled nuke testing. The only way left to stop the donations.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2016 06:17

Layered defenses in punjab. Plus TOW2As galore. Doubt it will be the easiest to take on.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2016 06:23

the reason why even our small corvettes have 12-16 urans is to saturate and take out their surface fleet.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SSridhar » 14 Feb 2016 09:30

Is the latest set of F-16s coming to Pakistan free of cost?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kashi » 14 Feb 2016 10:56

SSridhar wrote:Is the latest set of F-16s coming to Pakistan free of cost?


The reports say "subsidised". Open to all sorts of interpretation.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Arunkumar » 14 Feb 2016 11:11

This might be top of the line to counteract the impending sale of Rafale to India and induction of MK-1A . Question is why only 8. I think this is just opening of just one sluice gate. Since rafale and LCA mk-1A will be both equipped with AESA and other exotic stuff and there is nothing similar in Fizzle-ya to match, this has been served as starters. It is cold war redux and more will follow.
I also feel the presence of DSI on JF-17 bandar is also a case of passing of cuTting edge aeropace tech from US to pak thru taller than ocean freinds.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 14 Feb 2016 12:07

So USA is unwilling to deliver prime suspect involved in killing of 180 Indian citizens, and is more then willing to supply arms to same country which took part in that massacre and continues to shelter mass murderers. Some of them give live television interviews.

When we will create a situation where action against our country will have consequences? Why just summon their ambassador, just recall ours.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vishvak » 14 Feb 2016 12:27

Pakis seem to have built an air force with many F-16, in small batches, many times so that now F-16s are numerous enough to form backbone of PAF.

An earlier report, 13 F-16s purchased from Jordan
Points to note:
* F-16s have been built up in small batches
* Some from Gulf/Arab countries, meaning well maintained and refurbished
* Some were directly from USA, by overriding Pressler Amendment type restrictions and then allowing mid-life upgrades too.
* Some purchases were made knowing well that Pakis can't/won't be paying up that much, including for upgrades/training.

All in all, a lot of "won't change a thing" excuses, amendments to restrictions, mid-life upgrade/refurbishments/training to build PAF backbone.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby deejay » 14 Feb 2016 12:38

The US is supporting its munna in a very anti India way. F 16s to Pakistan have only one utility - anti India. I do not see the reason for us to bend backward to accommodate US which equips, supports, sustains and props up a nation at war with us and also hosts organisations like Ford Foundation who have spawned multiple Breaking India forces.

What spineless attitude. More I see Iran, more I like what they do.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 14 Feb 2016 14:00

Karan M wrote:Layered defenses in punjab. Plus TOW2As galore. Doubt it will be the easiest to take on.


Karan,

Wars between armies are different than sending a few allahusnackbars over. Look at the TFTA being handed their petards on a plate regularly by the houthis. All the grade A western khan TFTA apache and what not. And the talipaans of all shades have used only khyber industry to stand firm against division after division.

Who do you think staffs the pakjabi army in the days of 10%? Is it only india where recruitment is so prized? Secondly, I doubt future wars will be fought with t90s racing against defenses. If they are, then the casualties will be deserved. As long as artillary is ***bought*** and used properly those canals arent holding a donkey let alone the russian cans.

The army will downhill skii faster than musharaff can change his brown pants. Services are only as good as the supply chain. And there ought not be a supply chain minutes into a hot event.

There is absolutely no source of enthusiasm or realistic hope of fighting outside nuuukes in that army. Where else will the fight come from --jeehard? The moment that is taken away, they will be signing another instrument faster than you can type niazi.

All of bakistani preparations are immediately moot IFF there exists north korea size artillary against it. Instead of going there via cold start, send some vodka ahead. That is not hard to do. Unless you dont buy a barrel for 30 years. It says nothing about their strengths.

The army there is a ghost that is made up. They are no north korea. Heck they can even only aspire to be saudi arapia army. The laughing stock of all militaries.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Arunkumar » 14 Feb 2016 14:42

Cant we cancel the Apache deal to drive the point home. Of all the deals Apache never made any sense. With LCH, WSI dhruv, Combat Hawk, Jaguar and mashallah weaponised HTT-40 these are more than enough to fulfill whatever Apache can do. Since Apache and chinook deliveries wont start before 2019, I think atleast Apaches can be junked. Or if part payment is already done buy a token 3 or 6 or whatever the payment can buy.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2016 20:42

Shreeman wrote:Wars between armies are different than sending a few allahusnackbars over. Look at the TFTA being handed their petards on a plate regularly by the houthis. All the grade A western khan TFTA apache and what not. And the talipaans of all shades have used only khyber industry to stand firm against division after division.

Who do you think staffs the pakjabi army in the days of 10%? Is it only india where recruitment is so prized? Secondly, I doubt future wars will be fought with t90s racing against defenses. If they are, then the casualties will be deserved. As long as artillary is ***bought*** and used properly those canals arent holding a donkey let alone the russian cans.

The army will downhill skii faster than musharaff can change his brown pants. Services are only as good as the supply chain. And there ought not be a supply chain minutes into a hot event.

There is absolutely no source of enthusiasm or realistic hope of fighting outside nuuukes in that army. Where else will the fight come from --jeehard? The moment that is taken away, they will be signing another instrument faster than you can type niazi.

All of bakistani preparations are immediately moot IFF there exists north korea size artillary against it. Instead of going there via cold start, send some vodka ahead. That is not hard to do. Unless you dont buy a barrel for 30 years. It says nothing about their strengths.

The army there is a ghost that is made up. They are no north korea. Heck they can even only aspire to be saudi arapia army. The laughing stock of all militaries.


Shreeman, I wouldn't be all that cavalier, take a look at the recent Syrian conflict and the amount of arty expended. All it does is after a point is move rubble, until and unless employed in massive fashion. The PA fields layered defenses whose job it is to take a pounding and delay till the 4 fathers step in (Khan, Empire and their lackeys in India, the left-psec brigade) as delay adds on. The other option is to strike through the desert areas and that is where the mobile TOW2As supplied en masse come in.

In short, we will need arty and also a lot more ammo, AND some nifty countermeasures on our tin cans, the T-XX etc lest mobile ATGMs etc delay things. Its all being put in place but one thing is sure, the IA will prevail.

Question is of speed.

Israelis against Hezb/Hamas, SAA against FSA/ISIS, etc - combined arms maneuvers need heavy arty and protection both and the rapid proliferation of ATGMs means we should be willing to trade attrition for speed (and its not our lives at risk so it seems very easy to talk all this but reality is different) or willing to bear a grinding match wherein every pillbox or defense or target is taken out one after another.

So arty+ammo+spares first, followed everything else.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2016 20:51

arvin wrote:Cant we cancel the Apache deal to drive the point home. Of all the deals Apache never made any sense. With LCH, WSI dhruv, Combat Hawk, Jaguar and mashallah weaponised HTT-40 these are more than enough to fulfill whatever Apache can do. Since Apache and chinook deliveries wont start before 2019, I think atleast Apaches can be junked. Or if part payment is already done buy a token 3 or 6 or whatever the payment can buy.


Apache with the mavericks & Longbow radar can be a gamechanger in terms of situational awareness.

War is simply put, courage factor and leadership aside, getting info on enemy movement, and then destroying it. Find, Fix, Destroy (or render irrelevant).

IMO, APaches will be huge net + for IA/IAF.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 14 Feb 2016 22:57

karan,

syria is instructive, but not in the sense you lay out. the russians had closed the supplies on loan tap. jihadis had free billions. all that has changed is the barrel bombs are now unnecessary because of the landing ships bringing in as needed amounts.

supply chain for saa was starved of everything. spare parts, bullets, medicines, food. now, not so much. and they have taken back a measurable fraction in a matter of weeks and are holding it against entrenched opposition.

i posit the baki supply chain will be visible. if you have the means to deal with it.

i also posit the the indian army does not ever want to fight another war, afraid more of two fronts and internal strife. the man power and defense purchase decisions support this theory. there is not an iota of non-middleman, straight forward timely procurement. its all tender management for the benefit of who knows. this is also a way to fight a war.

artillary is the prime example. but what aspect (other than man power) has even seen organic growth? Let alone technological jump.

Its not a matter of criticising one side or the other. Do the bakis have several hundred thousand standing men. Sure they do. Every 5 year old shouts jeehard and holds an ak47. Are they any more capable than the madarassa educated cave dwellers of the north? Why would they be?

So its quantity. As far as the army is concerned. The response so far has been matching man to man ww2 style. that is the folly.

Question indeed is of speed. artillary fielded today will take ten years to operationalize, with a new generation of operators used to being able to use the barrels instead of polishing them to prolong their life. this is such a gaping hole, its really laughable. its also a window into the institutional state.

None of it lends any credibility to the canal dwelling, madarassa educated, five times praying, downhill running, djinn believing, tabeez wearing, friday sleeping, TFTA praising, arabian descent investigating, martial races.

You dont discount an enemy, but you dont build it up either. The theory that bakistan is an insurmountable, existential, and the only and forever challenge to its eastern neighbor has to go. Its not. They need to be ignored, and rational practices based on capability and technology and geography and supply chain/logistics need to be introduced for all borders. Any fighter should be able to get to any front in hours. Not in weeks.

That is the speed solution. If you cant buy the guns, build roads to everywhere. The civilians will take care of the matters themselves if there is developed enough infrastructure to get everywhere.

Its a tangent here. But the problem of generational improvement in the west, block 52, hand me downs from afghanistan, AIP, whatever remains unsolved without one of these two solutions. A 10,000 barrel solution or 10,000 km solution.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 14 Feb 2016 23:35

Shreeman, i read your post 2 times. I still dont think i clearly get what you are trying to say. Can you make it a bit more straightforward?

Is it that you state the IA is not serious about a war with TSP hence the issues? In which case the folly was with 8 years UPA GOI and the people that elected them, not the IA.

That's not the case anymore. So I would not state IA is non serious. Similarly, you missed the point about FSA and SAA. A rag tag FSA managed to hold off a professional SAA with TOW2s. A non state actor Hezb had success against IDF using RPGs and Konkurs/new Russian ATGMs etc. The issues exist.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 15 Feb 2016 00:38

Karan,

I think that there is a submissive mindset problem. It is compounded by corruption. Whether it exists at political, middleman, or procurement level, or due to shortsighted commercial interests is not directly consequential. This has made the eastern challenge formidable.

You can look at syria either way. No one has been discreet about supporting el rebels in syria. The SAA has protected the vast vast majority of its population from the amerikhan, turkish, saudi, ukistan, french, german, qatari and dozen other covert services dumping every possible kind of hardware by land sea and air. You can overcome the rag tag nature if you can dump every chechen, pakistani, somaliam, turkish, ukistani idiot there en masse and arm them without cost consequences. The FSA etc are hardly unsupported. Turkey was controlling the air space. Every kind of intelligence from dozens of sources. Hospitals across every border. R&R with slaves. You name it. What really were syrian options? India doesnt have the leisure of this kind of rag tag awacs and f16s controlling anything and everything.
SAA has withstood what no other arabian army, iran iraq egypt included, has withstood. There is no point in obscuring the fact they were fighting turkish, qatari, saudi and bakistani northern light infantries dressed kargil style all along. This time with air support on the rebel side.

Closwr home, you cant deny the current approach of reacting to gifts by trying some more jugaad is inexplicably dumb. Everyone knows these arent the last f16s to be gifted. India has the scale. Use it. It can decide it wants a 10,000 items each for three services because it has the need. Then, just like offers of sales when any technology matures, gifts to attempt to balance the situation will go away. Taiwan cant even buy the stuff it can pay for, let alone anyone gifting it anything. Its just as old a country as pakistan. Far more important industrially, and civilised. Because china is employing the scale. 25,000 ton platform to begin with. Runways in the middle of the sea. Makes it futile to try to balance.

This is two orders of magnitude more than what is dreamt today. The day india decides to discard "soldiers are dying to join the army, therefore, you put boots on hilltops as security" approach and adopts an industrial approach to fighting -- short, sharp, unbearably painful -- the challenge will go away.

Perhaps we agree that two orders of magnitude improvement, in equipment and infrastructure will cool the passions of balance enthusiasts. In which case, my entire arguments so far have been to make it evident there is *something* preventing this line of thought and action from developing. Reducing instead to 36 of this, 124 of that, 3 of another, and scapping of the 6 produced after 4 crashes. The evidence is far too much to discount this as actions of one ruling setup, or greed, or a temporary anachronism.

There is no debate at all about the right scale of manufacture. Necessary scale of deployment. Scale of operationalisation. The debates are all about minimal credible import --126 instead of 36, x,00 instead of 20, or x,00 instead of 124. It betrays an attitude of giving up to the status quo, and trying just to keep your head above water. That is a cultural, institutional, mindset problem.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2016 01:02

Fair enough and the points you made are very valid. I won't bring in the Syria thing anyhow because one way or the other, irrespective of how we interpret it, it detracts from the larger point you were making and which I completely agree with.

The chalta hain attitude towards TSP is firmly the product of the same mindset which ran and brainwashed the population for 60+ years. Collective stockholm syndrome and TSP is "are bechare". As versus threat to be firmly handled.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 15 Feb 2016 07:38

+108 +72 Shreeman

just 10,000 new barrels of the outdated 105mm IFG will make TSP shiver so bad , delhi will experience a 6.0 quake

russia which is 1 gen behind NATO qualitatively is still able to play in the big jungle on the basis of production, level of readiness, alert n-deterrence and willingness to confront.

rather than complete big systems (which tend to be produced in lesser numbers) we need to boot up our pvt sector to make stuff like munitions, shells, explosives , trailing edge kit like 105mm by the megatons. they would not need to worry about repeat orders as frequent exercises will generate a constant need to produce fresh stock.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gagan » 15 Feb 2016 08:09

Plus arming at the right places and exercises will send the security calculus of the yahoos into a tizzy, forcing them to spend everything on defence.
The whole thing has to have a holistic approach, military, economic, political and above all psychological.

We spend too much energy worrying about a nation that is as incompetent as Jungle Raj. It is our own folly of ignoring things while a wimp in our backyard started to talk big.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Arunkumar » 15 Feb 2016 22:22

Karan M wrote:Apache with the mavericks & Longbow radar can be a gamechanger in terms of situational awareness.
IMO, APaches will be huge net + for IA/IAF.


ok...Agree with you on longbow part. And probably that was the clincher for the deal too. Seems desh has a technological equivalent (engines,optics etc) even if by wide margins for all parts of Apache except longbow. Kind of Radio blind in MMW spectrum.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 15 Feb 2016 23:18

One of the unusually good pieces from Paki officers....learnt a couple of things.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/print/98407-D ... h-province

By Taj M Khattak
The writer is a former Vice Chief of the Naval

The idea of recognizing a nation state’s special rights over sea space outside territorial limits and calling it Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) is a relatively new one. In earlier times, a country’s sovereign territorial waters extended up to the distance where cannon shots landed in the water from the coast and was generally taken as three nautical miles. As gun ranges improved, this limit was extended to twelve nautical miles.

In a bid to secure resources of adjoining seas after WW-II, countries began to claim jurisdiction beyond the twelve miles limit. United States of America was the first country to proclaim exclusive jurisdiction beyond traditional territorial limit of twelve miles, while Chile and Peru were the first to put a figure of 200 nautical miles on their claims of maritime zones.

In 1982, United Nations Convention on the Laws of the Sea (UNCLOS) was formally adopted which recognized the concept of EEZ as an area beyond the territorial sea, subject to special legal regime established in Part V of the convention, under which the rights and jurisdiction of the coastal States and the rights and freedom of other States are governed by the relevant provisions of the treaty.

This definition made a clear distinction between territorial sea and EEZ, wherein while the former conferred full sovereignty over waters adjoining its coast up to twelve nautical miles limit, the later conferred ‘sovereign rights’ below the surface of the sea. The sea surface however could be used by other states for ‘innocent passage’ of their flagged vessels.

In 1994, UNCLOS came into force after ratification of requisite number of sixty countries and to date approximately 162 countries have joined it. It is interesting to note that US has not ratified UNCLOS even though it recognizes it as codification of customary international law.

Pakistan has nearly 990 kilometers long coast line. With the acceptance of Pakistan’s claim early this year by UN commission for extension of its continental shelf from 200 to 350 nautical miles, its ‘sea bed territory’ has increased by another 50,000 square kilometers to 290,000 square kilometers. This is more than the combined area of Sind and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KPK) provinces.

An immediate consequence of this extension in Pakistan’s EEZ has been the negative impact on proposed Iran-Oman-India pipeline estimated to cost nearly $ 4 billion and capable of transporting nearly a trillion cubic feet gas over the next two decades. It was planned to be 1,300 kilometers long and 3400 meters under the sea and was to run from Chahbahar in Iran and Ras al Ratan in Oman to Porbandar in India with a compression station on Murray Ridge which now falls in our extended EEZ. Routing of the pipeline further south in deeper waters would disturb the cost-benefit ratio and pose complex technical challenges.

In 1995, Pakistan had blocked a proposed deep-sea pipeline from Oman to India because it crossed our EEZ. This forced India to adopt a route outside of our previous 200 nautical miles limit of EEZ and for which detailed design, equipment trials and procurement of long lead items were planned during 2013-15.
We need to keep an eye on these developments and not be taken by surprise as India might try to dispute our fundamental sovereign rights over the sea bed in the extended EEZ.

India is already violating the spirit of UNCLOS by requiring 24 hours prior notice for ships carrying hazardous and dangerous cargos like oil, chemicals, noxious liquids, and radio-active material to enter its EEZ. In other words it is clearly endeavoring to ‘territorialize’ its EEZ. :roll:

Like neighboring Iran and India, Pakistan too has claimed authority to regulate military activities in its EEZ especially where the use of explosives or weapons is involved. In addition, we also require foreign aircraft to file flight plans before transiting over the EEZ. These claims reflect our legitimate security interest in the zone but in order to be taken seriously, it should now be followed by robust military capacity as well as pursuit of objectives through psychological measures, media warfare and legal means to dissuade adversaries from undermining our national interests.

This huge stretch of sea space can justifiably be called the fifth province of Pakistan. It is rich in hydrocarbons, fish, and other sea bed resources. In order to benefit from this gift of nature, Pakistan must undertake serious initiatives to acquire deep sea exploratory vessels which are capable of probing beneath the sea bed and evaluating data to determine presence of various natural resources.

Unless there is knowledge and information about what lies beneath the seabed under our jurisdiction, there is unlikely to be serious urge to extract this vast reservoir of national wealth. Outsourcing this task to other countries is not the answer as information on complete and authentic data on these resources is too precious to be shared with other countries.

One of the most precious resources under the sea bed in EEZ is the possibility of oil in Indus and Makran basins. The Indus basin constituting delta/fan system is second largest in the world after Bay of Bengal and is analogous to many producing basins in the world in geological terms. Pakistan hasn’t had much success in off-shore drilling in the past though efforts have been made by such drilling firms as Sun Oil Company, Wintershall, Husky, Occidental, Total, PPL, Shell, and Eni which in all drilled about twelve wells. But as technology improves, one can hope for a better success rate.

Sea food is another precious resource where our fish production in the marine sector, extending up to 35 nautical miles from the coast, is nearly 70 percent whiles the remaining 30 percent is obtained from inland sector. There is no reliable data on the quantum of fish resource beyond 35 nautical miles limit in the EEZ which is routinely transgressed by modern ‘floating factory’ type fishing trawlers from other countries.

Pakistan’s Maritime Security Agency (MSA) frequently apprehends Indian fishermen who intrude into Pakistani waters but its reach and capacity against ‘big time’ thieves operating further south of the coast is severely constrained. MSA does not have sufficient air surveillance assets to monitor the activities in EEZ, nor does it have enough surface vessel resources to effectively police the area once intruders have been reported.

The problem is compounded by unscrupulous interest groups residing in the city’s posh areas who regularly pass on movements of surveillance aircraft to alert erring fishing vessels. :!: Since MSA has the entire responsibility of the country’s coastlines in terms of strategic security, as well as law enforcement within EEZ, it must be beefed up to measure up to the assigned task.

Our EEZ is located in close proximity to Straits of Hormuz which centuries ago was called western ‘entrepot’ of the Indian Ocean by the Portuguese. The other ‘entrepot’, or a centre to which good are brought for import and export and for collection and distribution, was Malacca Strait.

While this huge area offers opportunities to explore additional resources, its unique geographical proximity also poses challenges in the form of threats which could imperil our national security. These threats could emanate from inter-state territorial disputes, political instability, piracy, dumping of toxic waste, human smuggling, drugs and arms smuggling and transnational crimes including maritime terrorism such as the blowing up a fishing boat by Indian coast guard in the recent past.

As the world at large focuses sharply on environmental issues, we too need to make an effort to keep our surrounding seas clean and healthy. It is common knowledge in the marine industry that dumping of toxic waste and operational discharges from tankers are the most significant chronic and continuous sources of polluting the oceans and causing ‘sub-lethal toxicity’ for both human and marine life which induces generic damage even in low concentrations. .

Guarding our national interest in the EEZ is a huge challenge but so are the benefits due to its size and enormity of resources. It would make sense to chalk out a comprehensive strategy for exploration of resources both beneath the surface and under the sea bed, complete with its surveillance and defense and sooner the better

Austin
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 16 Feb 2016 17:02

Janes has more details about F-16 deal

US approves additional F-16 sale to Pakistan
The US government has approved the sale to Pakistan of additional Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft.

The approval, which was given by the state department and announced by the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) on 12 February, is valued at USD699.04 million and covers aircraft, engines, systems, training, and support.

Specifically, the DSCA notification lists two single-seat F-16C and six twin-seat F-16D aircraft fitted with the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 increased performance engine; 14 Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing Systems; eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars; and eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites.

"The proposed sale improves Pakistan's capability to meet current and future security threats. These additional F-16 aircraft will facilitate operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defence/area-suppression capability, and enhance Pakistan's ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations,"
the DSCA notification said, adding, "This sale will increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements, and support transition training for pilots new to the Block 52."

The notification did not disclose delivery timelines.

Austin
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 16 Feb 2016 17:03

PLAAF would get good dekho into these F-16's by PAF , May be joint BFM stuff with J-10

Karan M
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2016 17:53

At least no AESA and AIM-9X.

Shreeman
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 16 Feb 2016 23:16

Austin wrote:PLAAF would get good dekho into these F-16's by PAF , May be joint BFM stuff with J-10


They probably come with half a dozen minders each. Also china probably already has everything it needs, cad drawings and all. Or bakistan wouldnt be getting it.


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