Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Aditya G
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 17 Feb 2016 00:14

Steel Cutting ceremony for 1500t boat for PMSA

Image

Fleet strength of PMSA is as follows:

Active:
03 x Patrol boat
09 x Interceptor

On order:

08 x Global Response Cutter (possibly will go to PN)
06 x Patrol boat (<1000t)
01 x Patrol boat (1500t)

Speculation of the 7 patrol boats:

Image

Image

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 17 Feb 2016 06:51

there is no AESA for block52 on sale because nobody has yet purchased the RACR or SABR or whatever its called.
israel has been banned from fitting its El2052 on Sufa.
the F-16 block60 airavath probably has upgraded electrical system to support its APG80 ... it is much costlier than 52.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 17 Feb 2016 09:12

Porkies are paying just 200mil from the 700mil bill. US of A will pay the remaining.

And here we are ready to pay 700mil for artillery which is about to close its business due to lack of orders.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 17 Feb 2016 09:30

Singha wrote:there is no AESA for block52 on sale because nobody has yet purchased the RACR or SABR or whatever its called.
israel has been banned from fitting its El2052 on Sufa.
the F-16 block60 airavath probably has upgraded electrical system to support its APG80 ... it is much costlier than 52.


At some point PAF would upgrade its Teen Fleet like we did for M2K and 29 to keep the teens in service till 2035 , May be AESA and other stuff may come in there.

Whats the status of F-16 upgrade market what are the options available ?


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 20 Feb 2016 15:31

F-16 supply to Pakistan a “down” in US-India relations: Parrikar
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has joined the chorus of protest at Washington’s announcement that it will sell Pakistan eight F-16 fighters for $699 million, in the fighter’s most potent configuration called Block 50/52.

On Thursday, speaking to interviewer Karan Thapar on India Today TV, Parrikar termed the sale a “down” in the US-India relationship, stating: “I’m quite hurt by that and we have expressed our feelings very clearly to America.”

This came a day after Phil Shaw, the India head of Lockheed Martin, the company that builds the F-16, offered at the Singapore Air Show to “build the F-16 aircraft in India [and] to move our production line from the US to India with an Indian partner to help with the ‘Make in India’ process.”

MoD sources say the US proposal to establish an F-16 production line in India has been dead for some time now. The Pakistan sale only hammers a final nail into that proposal’s coffin.

The origin of the latest sale goes back to 2006, when Washington signed a $1.4 billion deal to supply 18 Block 50/52 F-16C/D fighters to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), an order that was delivered in 2010-11. That contract included an option for 18 more aircraft. The eight new F-16s, about which the US Congress was notified last Friday, are being supplied under that options clause.

The US Department of Defense (Pentagon) is reportedly paying almost half the cost as military aid. The Congressional Research Service (CRS) reports that, between 2002-2014, the US sold Pakistan military kit worth $5.4 billion under the Foreign Military Sales programme. About half consisted of F-16s and related equipment.

The CRS reports that, since 2001, the US Congress has allocated $3.6 billion in Foreign Military Financing (an aid category) for Pakistan. More than two-third of this has been disbursed already.

New Delhi is not hiding its anger at this US largesse. On Saturday, the day after the Congressional notification, India’s foreign ministry summoned US envoy, Richard Verma, to protest the sale.

The Pentagon has downplayed Indian concerns, indicating the F-16s were being supplied for counter-terrorist operations in Pakistan’s federally administered tribal areas (FATA). On Tuesday, Pentagon Press Secretary Petro Cook stated: “We think these are important capabilities for Pakistan to go after terrorists… We don’t think it should be a cause for concern for India.”

Air Vice Marshal Kapil Kak of the Centre for Air Power Studies, points out that such advanced fighters are not needed for striking terrorist targets. “When I last looked, the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan didn’t have an air force! The war on terror does not require air-to-air missiles, airborne radar, and digital avionics,” says Kak. :rotfl:

Aviation expert, Pushpindar Singh, points out that the US is supplying the Embraer A-29 Super Tucano to the Afghanistan air force. “In those narrow valleys, ground strikes against terrorist are best delivered by the propeller-driven A-29 Super Tucano, which has armour protection and can even deliver laser guided bombs. The Block 50/52 F-16C/D is primarily for use against a modern air force like India’s”, he says.

India is not alone in protesting the latest F-16 sale. Influential Republican senator, Bob Corker, who heads the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, has indicated he will, in the least, oppose the US subsidy on the sale.

US assistance has raised Pakistan’s F-16 numbers from two squadrons (40 aircraft) of earlier-generation F-16A/B fighters to four state-of-the-art squadrons that are a match for anything the Indian Air Force (IAF) can throw at them.

The most potent are the 18 Block 50/52 F-16C/Ds that Pakistan obtained in 2010-11, which are based in in PAF Base Shahbaz, outside Jacobabad, forming the PAF’s No. 5 Squadron. Along with these, the US supplied the AMRAAM (advanced medium range air-to-air missile), which can target enemy fighters “beyond visual range” (BVR). This was the first time the PAF obtained BVR missiles, obliging the IAF to transform their air-to-air combat tactics.

That contract also provided the PAF with JDAMs (joint direct attack munitions), which convert regular gravity bombs into “smart munitions”. A JDAM kit bolted onto a dumb bomb, guides it with pin-point precision to a target 28 kilometres away, using “inertial guidance” and a Global Positioning System receiver. With air-to-air refuelling, these F-16s can strike Indian targets near Mumbai and further south.

The eight new F-16s would come with all this weaponry, as would the 10 additional fighters on which Pakistan could exercise “options” to make up a full new squadron. Like No.5 Squadron, the new squadron too will most likely be based at Jacobabad, since the US has imposed stringent conditions on where Pakistan can base F-16s.

Wikileaks made public a cable (No. 113106/1201 dated June 22nd, 2007) that the US Embassy in Islamabad sent to Washington, revealing US conditions for basing and operating the new F-16s. It says: “The F-16… must be housed on separate, pre-designated Pakistan Air Force bases to ensure no unauthorized access. Furthermore, Pakistan may not have non-U.S./non-Pakistan origin aircraft or personnel at any of the bases with these F-16 aircraft and related equipment.”

Further, to keep Chinese technicians and pilots away from the F-16s, “No foreign units or personnel may be permanently or temporarily assigned at the bases where F-16 aircraft are assigned, parked, maintained or stored, or while deployed.”

Besides Jacobabad, Pakistan bases three squadrons of its older F-16A/B fighters --- Nos 9, 11 and 19 Squadrons --- at Sargodha, in PAF Base Mushaf. The first two operate 34 Block 15 F-16A/B fighters, which are what remains of the first 40 F-16s that Pakistan acquired in the 1980s. As part of the 2006 contract, the US provided mid-life upgrade (MLU) kits for these fighters, greatly improving their capability, though not to the level of the Block 50/52 F-16s.

No 19 Squadron has been equipped from 26 older (but upgraded) Block 15 F-16s that the US supplied at throwaway rates, in the category of “Excess Defence Articles” that the US military no longer required.

Pakistan also bought 12-13 Block 15 F-16s from Jordan. Now upgraded, these are used for training PAF pilots in establishments like the Combat Commander’s School.

Pushpindar Singh says Pakistan is also looking for old-model F-16s from European air forces --- such as Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Greece and Italy --- which are being replaced by new fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-35 Lightning II. “These can be upgraded cheaply with US-supplied kits, to replace the PAF’s obsolescent Mirage III, Mirage V and F-7 fighters that are nearing retirement”, says Singh.


Wikileaks revealed a cable sent by an exasperated US embassy official in Islamabad that noted: “The Pakistan Air Force is obsessed with F-16s… The request for used F-16s represents the GOP’s (government of Pakistan’s) desire to acquire aircraft at an extreme discount.”

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 20 Feb 2016 22:00

Brand new Algerian C28A corvette in kochi.

The design is an upgraded version of F-22p frigates and thus represents an upgrade path or even likely future induction.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/701001955359895552

We should build more medium capability surface ships as well.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 27 Feb 2016 00:28

PN aviation ....

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Bhaskar_T » 27 Feb 2016 13:12

So, America still goes ahead with the sale of 8 F-16's to Pakistan despite India's and couple of USA politician objections. At the first instance, I thought John McCain has really disliked the almost concluded sale but with careful reading he only objects to the "timing". He only wanted the current sale decision to be pushed for next administration.

The other thing I noted is the latest cost estimate per unit of F-16 (which block?). For 699 Million USD, 8 F-16's (including radar and equipment) turns out to be 87 MMUsd per F-16.


US to go ahead with F-16 sale to Pakistan, state department says

TNN & Agencies | Feb 27, 2016, 11.56 AM IST

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 165247.cms


WASHINGTON: Despite objections from India and some US lawmakers, the Obama administration on Friday defended its decision to sell eight F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

"We support the proposed sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan to assist Pakistan's counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations. Pakistan's current F-16s have proven critical to the success of these operations to date," state department spokesperson Helaena W White said.

The Pakistan Embassy in Washington appreciated the Obama administration's determination to go ahead with the proposed sale, the Pakistani newspaper Dawn reported on Saturday.

The US government announced on February 12 that it had approved the sale to Pakistan of up to eight additional F-16 fighter jets, as well as radars and other equipment, in a deal valued at $699 million. India and some US lawmakers have objected to this sale, saying that the F-16s have not been useful in such operations and would ultimately be used against India. India had said that it disagreed with the US's rationale that the supply of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan will help combat terrorism but at the same time it had noted that its ties with Washington were not a single-issue relationship.

At least two US senators have announced they intend to try and stop the sale despite the administration having vetted the deal with backdoor approvals. On Thursday, senator Rand Paul joined his colleague Bob Corker, the senate foreign relations committee chairman, in opposing the sale, saying he has introduced a resolution of disapproval seeking to halt all arms sales to Pakistan. If passed, the measure would also stop the F-16 sale, which needs to be approved by the Senate before March 12.

They appear to have the backing of veteran senator John McCain, whose three decades in the Senate has overseen billions of dollars in foreign aid to Pakistan, but who now has second thoughts about the F-16 supply. "I would rather have seen it kicked over into the next administration," McCain said on Thursday, saying he was "conflicted" on the timing of the announcement. "This is really a tough one for me and for a lot of people. I think the timing was really bad on this issue," the former presidential candidate told the Defense Writers Group on Thursday, pressing for a hearing by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, where the administration will have to explain and defend the deal to a country many lawmakers believe uses terrorism as a policy tool.

Opposition to the deal is bipartisan. "Pakistan must prove it is taking substantive steps to go after all terrorist groups in the country before we move forward with the sale of F-16s," said California congressman Ami Bera, an Indian-American Democrat. "So far, Pakistan has not shown willingness to go after groups like the Haqqani network and Lashkar-e-Taiba, which is why I cannot support a sale at this time." While US lawmakers have until March 12 to block the sale, such action is rare since deals are usually well vetted before any formal notification, and it remained unclear if lawmakers would thwart the deal.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 27 Feb 2016 15:23

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/may2007-week ... pol1.htm#5

China, the other friend, on the other hand helped us to struggle with the remaking of first generation discarded missiles. Not a single one of the Anza missiles worked in Kargil.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby nirav » 27 Feb 2016 15:32

Pakis made a lot of noise then about how their "anza" mijjiles shot down our MiGs.
And now pakis buying into HQ series.
China maal, and that too export model.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Feb 2016 17:20

It's obvious it was the numerous stingers fired which worked in Kargil A couple were even recovered after the war.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_28756 » 29 Feb 2016 04:19

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/us-sell-f-16-f ... ion-668421

Despite opposition from its own lawmakers and criticism from India, the United States will go ahead with the sale of eight Lockheed Martin Corp F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, the US State Department reportedly said Friday. The statement comes after a U.S. Senator introduced a resolution of disapproval over the proposed sale, while another lawmaker called for a hearing on the deal.

The Barack Obama administration maintains the F-16 fighter jets would help Pakistan in its counter-terrorism operations, but Indian authorities expressed concerns that the jets could be used against India.

"We support the proposed sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan to assist Pakistan's counter-terrorism and counterinsurgency operations. Pakistan's current F-16s have proven critical to the success of these operations to date," U.S. State Department spokesperson Helaena W White was quoted as saying by Dawn.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby BharadwajV » 01 Mar 2016 13:23

Feb 29, 2016
The MI-17 aircraft of Pakistan army was on a routine night training mission before crashing at Tarbela near Rawalpindi.

A lieutenant colonel of the Pakistan army embraced martyrdom while four others escaped alive, the ISPR said

http://www.samaa.tv/pakistan/2016/02/lt-col-tauqir-embraces-martyrdom-in-helicopter-crash/

How many Mi17s does the PAA operate and which variants?
IIRC, the most numerous variant is the Mi171...

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 02 Mar 2016 09:23

Too many. Like F16s, they have begged and borrowed those too. Count betwwen the services and be ready for an unhappy surprise. Put bakistan is fighting russia in syria again, even more directly than afg. So there is that to change maintenance and flying qualities of a very large percentage of that rotory fleet.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 05 Mar 2016 15:23

US issues formal notification for sale of F 16 jets to Pakistan

The US government has issued a formal notification for the sale of eight Amidst stiff opposition from India and top American lawmakers, the US government has formally published federal notification for the sale of eight F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/us-i ... 12749.html

The US government has issued a formal notification for the sale of eight Amidst stiff opposition from India and top American lawmakers, the US government has formally published federal notification for the sale of eight F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

"This proposed sale contributes to US foreign policy objectives and national security goals by helping to improve the security of a strategic partner in South Asia," said the notification which was published by the federal register yesterday, along with a copy of the February 11 letter, which the Defense Security Cooperation Agency wrote to the House of Representatives Speaker Paul Ryan.

The total cost of these F-16 is estimated to be nearly USD 700 million, said the federal notification. It added that the Government of Pakistan had requested for this sale.

India has opposed the sale of F-16 to Pakistan, saying it disagree with Washington's rationale that such arms transfers help to combat terrorism.

Republican Senator Rand Paul has asked colleagues in the Senate to join him in opposing the sale of F-16s to Pakistan.

Pakistan Prime Minister's Adviser on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz told Defence Writers Group this week that Pakistan had initially requested for 18 F-16s, but because of "financing problem" it is purchasing just eight.

"In the last five years Pakistan air force has been saving US assistance to be able to finance these F-16. That is why, the administration has recommended that these should be sold because it is a very critical part of our counter terrorism operation," Aziz said.

These F-16, Aziz argued, are a critical tool in the war against terrorism. When asked if this is to be used only in the tribal region, he did not rule out otherwise.

"This is part of our fleet. For the last two-three years they have extensively been used in tribal areas," Aziz said.

"Right now the specialised need is the counter-terrorism operation, for which we are heavily dependent of F-16."

According to notification published in the federal register, the proposed sale improves Pakistan's capability to meet current and future security threats.

"This sale will increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain perations, meet monthly training requirements, and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force," the federal register said.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 09 Mar 2016 05:54

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

Tarek Fatah in the Toronto Sun on US weapon sales to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Suicidal America is arming Pakistan

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kit » 13 Mar 2016 23:59

I think it is time BRF awakens to the clout of the non resident Pakistanis who live in USA especially those in the North west and eastern US . They are indeed the elite of the elite Pakistanis with deep military and intelligence connections .. quite a few have linked themselves (by way of marriages and financial collaborations) to american political , business and financial establishments . They play a huge role in serving Pakistan s ( and their own by proxy ) survival and enrichment.

they seem be doing a better job than NRI s in a few ways !!

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby nirav » 14 Mar 2016 00:06

let the americans feed the snake.some day or the other, the snake *will* eventually bite back. Just one terrorist attack away on homeland.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kit » 14 Mar 2016 00:40

China seems to be developing its own version of AESA radar for fighter planes and some are already in production .. these will certainly make its way to Pakistan as well

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 14 Mar 2016 06:52

Pakistan looks to buy another 10 F-16s
Farhan Bokhari, Islamabad - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

http://www.janes.com/article/58678/paki ... r-10-f-16s

Pakistan will seek to purchase another 10 Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block 52 multirole fighters from the United States after recently concluding a deal to buy eight of the aircraft.

A "decision in principle has been made to buy 10 more F-16s", a senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane's on 7 March, while adding that "the exact timing to place an order is yet to be decided".

The US Department of State approved in February a sale of eight fighters - two single-seat F-16Cs and six twin-seat F-16Ds, along with associated equipment - for about USD699 million. The deal was opposed by some members of the US Congress on the grounds that Pakistan had not done enough against insurgents and terrorist groups active in Afghanistan.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 14 Mar 2016 21:54

Time to sell Brahmos to Iran and claim it is in interest of maintaining balance in the persian gulf.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_24684 » 15 Mar 2016 07:17

Bheeshma wrote:Time to sell Brahmos to Iran and claim it is in interest of maintaining balance in the persian gulf.


Israel dear ..

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Viv S » 17 Mar 2016 19:40

Pakistan Seeks New Service Rifle, Upgraded Ordnance Facilities

Usman Ansari, Defense News

ISLAMABAD — Trials are underway to select a new firearm for the Pakistan army to replace its G3 battle rifle and Chinese Type-56 AK-47 clones, which will also include upgrading facilities at the state-owned Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF).

Modernization efforts of the POF facilities are aimed at enhancing export success in what is a core export defense industry for Pakistan.

The news came during a Tuesday visit to a POF facility at Wah by head of the Army Gen. Raheel Sharif, who according to a press release by the military’s Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) media branch, was making his second trip “to see the progress of envisaged modernization and capacity enhancement of POF.”

During the visit, Sharif inaugurated a new ammunition production plant, which is part of an expansion plan. POF chief Lt. Gen. Omar Mahmood Hayat briefed Sharif, who thanked the factory's support in providing arms and ammunition for the ongoing counter terrorist operations.

Sharif also “emphasized the need for further technological upgradation to optimize the output” to ensure self reliance in arms-and-ammunition needs for the civilian and military security services.

He pushed for more efforts to secure new markets for POF products.

However, the presence of a series of foreign rifles at POF seen during the Sharif's visit drew attention to a little publicized competition to find a new standard rifle for the military.

From the images available, it appears Pakistan is trialing the following rifles: Beretta ARX-200, CZ-806 BREN 2, FN SCAR, Kalashnikov AK-103, and Zastava M21.

There has been a longstanding requirement for a new service rifle and approximately 10 years ago the army expressed requirement for a 5.56 caliber rifle.

POF attempted to meet the requirement with its PK-8, which was a development of the German HK33K. However, the cost of having to replace so many rifles appears to have killed the project at that time.

Instead, the military acquired large numbers of the Chinese Type-56 clone of the AK-47. It also modified the G3 to produce the G3S, which was a carbine/para variant of the battle rifle, and the G3M, which has a series of rail attachments to fit a range of grips, sighting devices, and under-barrel grenade launcher.

When asked about the new rifles, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence Production confirmed trials were underway for a new service rifle.

“Pakistan army wants to induct new rifles. Trials are going on for the rifles. But nothing has been finalized yet.”

The spokesperson also highlighted that the new ammunition plant was aimed at enhancing existing production capacity, and that “Up-gradation remaining within [POF’s] core area may be carried [out] depending upon technological development in future.”

POF was also open to entering into joint ventures with foreign companies.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said there is nothing inherently wrong with the current weapons being used, but that newer ones are more effective.

“The G-3 and AK-47/Type 56 rifles have been popular in the army, but later weapons are certainly more effective, especially in the weight-to-kill power-ratio,” he said. “The AK-103, for example, is a very long way ahead of the AK-47 and has the attraction of using 7.62x39mm ammunition which has excellent stopping power and is readily available.”

Therefore, Cloughley said, Pakistan’s military “wants to move with the times and is most serious about procuring a new rifle, which is why the trials of five systems are now taking place.”

A deal will likely eventually lead to the military procuring some 500,000 rifles or more, therefore it is a lucrative deal, but one which Pakistan will insist involves licensed production, and the results of this could be known later in the year.

“In the selection process, the most important aspect is plain effectiveness in battle," said Cloughley. "But a main factor will be a deal to manufacture it at POF. There is no possibility of a contract involving total import. The trials should be over by mid-year, and no doubt there will be concurrent negotiations about production.”

Cloughley said it will undoubtedly include upgrading POF facilities, though not necessarily in conjunction with the winning design.

“POF is a success story, but some of the plant and machinery is getting old and needs replacement, which is expensive. Much will depend on negotiations with suppliers, and it is likely that the Chinese will be the most prepared to offer attractive deals,” he said.

Cloughley added: “Raheel has always placed emphasis on domestic production of arms and ammunition, and what he said during his recent visit to Wah was consistent with overall government policy.”

Though this may be achieved reasonably well however, true success will likely be measured elsewhere.

“What POF really needs is an overseas market, but that is extremely difficult to break into,” Cloughley said.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kartik » 19 Mar 2016 01:16

The reason why the US would be more than willing to overlook Indian concerns over sales of the 8 + 10 F-16 Block 52s to Pakistan.



F-16 avoiding production gap

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 19 Mar 2016 02:52

SajeevJino wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:Time to sell Brahmos to Iran and claim it is in interest of maintaining balance in the persian gulf.


Israel dear ..



No they don't have any capital ships big enough to come near Iranian shores. Their primary attack would be Air or submarine both are unaffected by Brahmos. Not to mention Syria already has Yakhont.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 19 Mar 2016 06:01

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

Member of the Nehru-Gandhi family led Congress Party, Shashi Tharoor ,on holding “uninterrupted and uninterruptible” talks with the Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

"We can't have uninterrupted talks with Pakistan as Mani Shankar Aiyar suggests. If the military and ISI unleash Lashkar-e-Taiba in Mumbai and other cities, we should interrupt talks. We can't talk to people who cannot control their nationals," …………………. "Its surrendering our self-respect by saying we will talk to you even if your people are coming and killing us,"

Continuing talks with Pakistan while they attack us is surrendering our self-respect: Shashi Tharoor

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 20 Mar 2016 06:26

X Posted from the STFUP thread.



Falijee,

Meanwhile Deutsche Welle seems to have woken up to the fact that the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are above the law.

Musharraf's departure proves Pakistani military is above the law : The fact that former ruler Pervez Musharraf could leave Pakistan despite serious cases against him proves the army considers itself above the law, experts say. An opportunity to assert civilian supremacy has been lost.:

Deutsche Welle

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby John » 20 Mar 2016 06:33

Bheeshma wrote:

No they don't have any capital ships big enough to come near Iranian shores. Their primary attack would be Air or submarine both are unaffected by Brahmos. Not to mention Syria already has Yakhont.

Main reason why Israel-China deteriorated was Chinese supply of AshM to Iran which in part based on Israeli tech. Any supply of Brahmos would up in hands of China almost next day thanks to their close ties.

Considering our close ties to Israel even supply of pistols to Iran is unlikely.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 22 Mar 2016 20:01

Pakistan Air Force JF-17 as Air Commodore Khalid Mehmood takes us around the aircraft at the Paris Air Show 2015.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 25 Mar 2016 15:46

Pakistan is the first to show Chinese military helicopters Z-10 on parade ( Check the link for many other display on national day )

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1809069.html

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby deejay » 25 Mar 2016 18:47

A good write up on Pakistan Navy

http://cimsec.org/pakistans-navy-quick-look/23227

PAKISTAN’S NAVY: A QUICK LOOK
MARCH 23, 2016 ALEX CALVO LEAVE A COMMENT
By Alex Calvo

Traditionally the junior service, operating in the Army’s shadow and receiving a ten percent share of the 2015 defence budget of $6.6 billion, Pakistan’s Navy personnel numbers more than 22,000 active, plus 5,000 in the reserve. This secondary role stands in contrast with the economy’s dependence on the sea, with the port city of Karachi contributing 25 percent of GDP and the proposed China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) raising the country’s maritime profile even further.

Much of the Navy’s backbone, including its seven submarines, five French-made ‘Khalid’ class conventional hunter-killer (SSKs) acquired in the 1990s plus two ‘Hashmat’ class SSKs from the 1970s, is nearing retirement. The Navy is working to acquire new surface and undersea combatants, boosting domestic shipbuilding in the process and in cooperation with Beijing.

Plans include procuring an additional four 3000-ton F-22P/’Zulfiqar’ (Sword) class frigates with improved sensors and weapons (including HQ-17 surface-to-air missiles, developed from Russia’s Tor 1/SA-N-9), as well as six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats. State-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) is responsible for these programs, and is expanding its facilities with a new foundry, manufacturing areas, and two dry docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres. Islamabad had been hoping to procure six Perry-class frigates from the US on easy terms, but congressional hostility has prompted greater reliance on China, a country heavily committed at all levels to Pakistan, being a key to Beijing’s strategy of securing access to the Indian Ocean and keeping New Delhi distracted by a regional rival.

Image
Sword class frigate of the Pakistani Navy.
Karachi is the traditional home of the Pakistani Navy, and remains of the utmost importance, despite diversification into other bases, among them PNS Siddique (in Turbat, in the south-west, close to the strategic deepwater port of Gwadar and the border with Iran), Pasni, and Jinnah Naval Base (also in the south-west). Asked whether security is considered by the Pakistani Navy as a reason to push for further diversification away from the city, Zoha Waseem (PhD Candidate at King’s College London and an expert in Pakistani security and policing) explains that “the situation in Karachi in terms of the ongoing operation is linked with the need of the military to keep investing in Karachi. The construction of military bases, infrastructure, and training centres and accommodation does not appear to be decreasing. Karachi is an ATM machine, and a prime location for any stakeholder to have its assets here.”

Image
PNS Badr, a British-built Type-21 frigate, was decommissioned in 2014. Despite being the junior service and the country facing a difficult fiscal position, Pakistan's Navy has been pushing for ambitious plans in terms of both surface and undersea combatants. Source Flickr.

While new ships are seen as essential in terms of maritime security and the fight against piracy, it is Pakistani plans to acquire new submarines that have met with the greatest concern in New Delhi. In March 2015, Islamabad announced plans to procure eight new Chinese submarines, and in October 2015 confirmed that four would be purchased from Beijing and four built at KSEW. The package includes a training centre in Karachi and probably includes access to China’s Beidou-II (BDS-2) satellite navigation network. Thanks to similar designs, Beijing, in turn, gets to enjoy the necessary maintenance personnel and facilities enabling her to operate her own submarines much more efficiently in the Indian Ocean, home to vital SLOCs (sea lanes of communication) for China. Ideally the Navy would like a total of 12 new boats. These Chinese-designed submarines will probably be based on the air independent propulsion (AIP) equipped Type 39B Yuan SSK (known as S-20 in its export version). Displacing 2,300 tons, they can fire both cruise missiles and 533 mm torpedoes, and can also deploy mines and special forces. Pakistan, already working on a version of the National Defence Complex Babur missile capable of launch from her old Khalid submarines, sees the S-20 as more than a conventional platform, although preventing an Indian blockade is certainly a major goal in and by itself. A sea-based deterrent would provide Islamabad with a second strike capability, while avoiding perceptions of falling behind India in the nuclear sphere. The resulting improvement in survivability is seen by Mansoor Ahmed (Stanton Nuclear Security junior faculty fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center), as providing greater strategic stability to South Asia, given that India could not be sure of completely destroying Pakistani nuclear forces and thus escape unacceptable damage herself.

Work on a sea-based deterrent may also be closely linked to the Navy’s status within the military. According to Scott Cheney-Peters (US Navy reserve officer and CIMSEC founder) “Unless Pakistan’s Navy can develop an at-sea strategic nuclear deterrent it is likely to remain the ‘junior service.’ This means it has a strong institutional incentive to pursue an SLBM second-strike capability. But just as this incentive may not be enough to bring the capability to fruition any time soon, so the second-capability may not be enough to remove the perception of the Navy as a junior partner in the nation’s armed forces.”

Alex Calvo is a guest professor at Nagoya University (Japan) focusing on security and defence policy, international law, and military history in the Indian-Pacific Ocean Region. A member of the Center for International Maritime Security (CIMSEC) and Taiwan’s South China Sea Think-Tank, he is currently writing a book about Asia’s role and contribution to the Allied victory in the Great War. He tweets @Alex__Calvo and his work can be found here.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby titash » 25 Mar 2016 19:43

deejay wrote:A good write up on Pakistan Navy

http://cimsec.org/pakistans-navy-quick-look/23227

PAKISTAN’S NAVY: A QUICK LOOK
MARCH 23, 2016 ALEX CALVO LEAVE A COMMENT
By Alex Calvo

Traditionally the junior service, operating in the Army’s shadow and receiving a ten percent share of the 2015 defence budget of $6.6 billion, Pakistan’s Navy personnel numbers more than 22,000 active, plus 5,000 in the reserve. This secondary role stands in contrast with the economy’s dependence on the sea, with the port city of Karachi contributing 25 percent of GDP and the proposed China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) raising the country’s maritime profile even further.

Much of the Navy’s backbone, including its seven submarines, five French-made ‘Khalid’ class conventional hunter-killer (SSKs) acquired in the 1990s plus two ‘Hashmat’ class SSKs from the 1970s, is nearing retirement. The Navy is working to acquire new surface and undersea combatants, boosting domestic shipbuilding in the process and in cooperation with Beijing.

Plans include procuring an additional four 3000-ton F-22P/’Zulfiqar’ (Sword) class frigates with improved sensors and weapons (including HQ-17 surface-to-air missiles, developed from Russia’s Tor 1/SA-N-9), as well as six Type-022 Houbei stealth catamaran missile boats. State-owned shipbuilder Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) is responsible for these programs, and is expanding its facilities with a new foundry, manufacturing areas, and two dry docks of 26,000 and 18,000 dead weight tons, spread over 71 acres. Islamabad had been hoping to procure six Perry-class frigates from the US on easy terms, but congressional hostility has prompted greater reliance on China, a country heavily committed at all levels to Pakistan, being a key to Beijing’s strategy of securing access to the Indian Ocean and keeping New Delhi distracted by a regional rival.

Karachi is the traditional home of the Pakistani Navy, and remains of the utmost importance, despite diversification into other bases, among them PNS Siddique (in Turbat, in the south-west, close to the strategic deepwater port of Gwadar and the border with Iran), Pasni, and Jinnah Naval Base (also in the south-west). Asked whether security is considered by the Pakistani Navy as a reason to push for further diversification away from the city, Zoha Waseem (PhD Candidate at King’s College London and an expert in Pakistani security and policing) explains that “the situation in Karachi in terms of the ongoing operation is linked with the need of the military to keep investing in Karachi. The construction of military bases, infrastructure, and training centres and accommodation does not appear to be decreasing. Karachi is an ATM machine, and a prime location for any stakeholder to have its assets here.”

Image
PNS Badr, a British-built Type-21 frigate, was decommissioned in 2014. Despite being the junior service and the country facing a difficult fiscal position, Pakistan's Navy has been pushing for ambitious plans in terms of both surface and undersea combatants. Source Flickr.

While new ships are seen as essential in terms of maritime security and the fight against piracy, it is Pakistani plans to acquire new submarines that have met with the greatest concern in New Delhi. In March 2015, Islamabad announced plans to procure eight new Chinese submarines, and in October 2015 confirmed that four would be purchased from Beijing and four built at KSEW. The package includes a training centre in Karachi and probably includes access to China’s Beidou-II (BDS-2) satellite navigation network. Thanks to similar designs, Beijing, in turn, gets to enjoy the necessary maintenance personnel and facilities enabling her to operate her own submarines much more efficiently in the Indian Ocean, home to vital SLOCs (sea lanes of communication) for China. Ideally the Navy would like a total of 12 new boats. These Chinese-designed submarines will probably be based on the air independent propulsion (AIP) equipped Type 39B Yuan SSK (known as S-20 in its export version). Displacing 2,300 tons, they can fire both cruise missiles and 533 mm torpedoes, and can also deploy mines and special forces. Pakistan, already working on a version of the National Defence Complex Babur missile capable of launch from her old Khalid submarines, sees the S-20 as more than a conventional platform, although preventing an Indian blockade is certainly a major goal in and by itself. A sea-based deterrent would provide Islamabad with a second strike capability, while avoiding perceptions of falling behind India in the nuclear sphere. The resulting improvement in survivability is seen by Mansoor Ahmed (Stanton Nuclear Security junior faculty fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center), as providing greater strategic stability to South Asia, given that India could not be sure of completely destroying Pakistani nuclear forces and thus escape unacceptable damage herself.

Work on a sea-based deterrent may also be closely linked to the Navy’s status within the military. According to Scott Cheney-Peters (US Navy reserve officer and CIMSEC founder) “Unless Pakistan’s Navy can develop an at-sea strategic nuclear deterrent it is likely to remain the ‘junior service.’ This means it has a strong institutional incentive to pursue an SLBM second-strike capability. But just as this incentive may not be enough to bring the capability to fruition any time soon, so the second-capability may not be enough to remove the perception of the Navy as a junior partner in the nation’s armed forces.”

Alex Calvo is a guest professor at Nagoya University (Japan) focusing on security and defence policy, international law, and military history in the Indian-Pacific Ocean Region. A member of the Center for International Maritime Security (CIMSEC) and Taiwan’s South China Sea Think-Tank, he is currently writing a book about Asia’s role and contribution to the Allied victory in the Great War. He tweets @Alex__Calvo and his work can be found here.


I found a couple of books in local stores that described the Type-21 Amazons in detail. Turns out these were not designed by the RN but by civilian shipyards and were meant to solicit export sales (that never happened). Aluminium-Magnesium superstructure that burnt and melted when hit by bombs, poor accommodation for ratings but good ones for officers, low potential for upgrades such as towed arrays/better SAMs, unsuitability for service in heavy weather areas such as Iceland, Falklands, etc. meant that these gas turbine units were considered poorer value for money than the steam turbine Type-12I Leanders. Hence they performed poorly in the Falklands and were sold to the first bidder before completing 20 years in RN service. The Pakis have essentially been picking up fleet units that a first-class navy wouldn't hold on to. Good for fleet reviews and a quick 5 day war, but no staying potential in a fight.

The IN's needs were different hence the large internal-volume ships of the Godavari/Brahmaputra/Delhi/Kolkata/Shivalik classes with lots of room for upgrades and two 10-ton helicopter capability etc. Not to mention they appear to have good performance in heavy seas.

The PN can easily be countered with a dedicated force of missile corvettes, coastal ASW boats, and coast guard OPVs equipped for ASW. That way the bulk of the IN's capital ships can swing to the east. V.Adm Chauhan has a pretty interesting perspective here:
http://bharatshakti.in/ships-and-shipbuilding-in-india-through-a-sino-indian-prism/

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 05 Apr 2016 16:31

Pakistan to receive nine AH-1Z attack helos
Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

http://www.janes.com/article/59267/paki ... tack-helos

Pakistan is to receive nine Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters by the end of September 2018, a US Department of Defense (DoD) contract notification has disclosed.

The USD170.2 million contract, awarded on 4 April, is a modification to a wider award made in August 2015 that covered AH-1Z Viper helicopters for the US Marine Corps (USMC) and Pakistan, as well as UH-1Y Venom helicopters for the USMC.

While the earlier award did not disclose AH-1Z numbers for Pakistan, the country had previously requested the procurement of 15 such platforms. With a number of nine aircraft now given, it is unclear if the remaining six requested will be contracted at a later date, or if the Pakistan Army that will operate them will instead opt to procure other types, such as the Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopter (three have been received for trials, and the army has also flown them operationally on counter-terrorism missions).

The original US Defense Security Co-operation Agency notification of Pakistan's request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for "a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this [AH-1Z and Hellfire II] capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environments".

The DoD contract notification is the latest development in Pakistan's ongoing efforts to bolster and eventually replace its existing 32 AH-1F Cobra platforms. Besides the AH-1Z and WZ-10, the country is rumoured to be interested in the Russian-built Mil Mi-28NE 'Havoc' as well. Further, it was announced on 19 August 2015 that Pakistan and Russia had signed a formal agreement for the procurement of four Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters, with more likely to follow.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Vipul » 07 Apr 2016 18:53

PAF will continue to bomb its own territory for a long time :) .

Pakistan wants to upgrade its aging fleet of fighter jets in anticipation of a prolonged battle against militants :rotfl: , although the purchase of fifth-generation planes would only be a last resort, a senior air force official said.

The country is fighting a Taliban insurgency in its northwest, a separatist insurgency along its Iranian border in the west, and has a heavily militarised and disputed border with arch rival India in the east.

In 2014, the military launched a crackdown in North and South Waziristan and has managed to push back militants into a few pockets.

But its air force, which will need to retire dozens of jets over the coming years, lacks the latest technology and relies heavily on a fleet of about 70 US-made Lockheed Martin F-16s, which are solely capable of carrying out precision targeting.

“Our concern is that we don’t know how long these anti-terrorist operations will continue,” Pakistan Air Force second-in-command Muhammad Ashfaque Arain told Reuters in an interview late on Wednesday.

“We have weakened them (militants) to a great extent, but I don’t see an end in the very near future, so all the burden is being shared by the F-16s and its pilots.”

Skeptics suspect the country’s military is seeking an improved arsenal to counter the growing military might of India, its eastern neighbour. The two countries have fought three wars since their violent separation in 1947 at the end of British colonial rule.

Pakistan’s fleet also includes hundreds of Dassault Aviation French-made Mirage jets that are over 40 years old and F7 Chinese warplanes that are over 25 years old, both of which the air force plans to retire over the next few years.

To fill the void, Islamabad has decided to bet on the JF-17 fighter, jointly developed by China and Pakistan, rather than spending billions on fifth-generation multi-role aircraft like Dassault’s Rafale, which rival India is buying, or the Russian Su-35. That option, Arain said, had almost been ruled out for being too expensive and because Pakistan did not want to mix technologies and resources. It would only be reconsidered if “it was pushed against a wall”. (Provided we get it free due to our blackmail and nuisance value)

Instead, 16 JF-17s will be produced this year with a further 20 in 2017, but Arain acknowledged that the jets’ usefulness in current operations was limited because it lacks precision targeting.

“Operationally, the aircraft are working pretty well so we if we had a targeting pod on the JF-17, the burden would be shared,” Arain said.

He said his visit to Paris was in part aimed at assessing from French officials the prospects of supplying the Thales-made Damocles, a third-generation targeting pod. He said was Islamabad’s priority for now. (Enough of the wong-tong cheeni maal :D )

Previous negotiations in 2010 for a deal worth 1.2 billion euros ($1.6 billion) worth of electronics and missiles collapsed under pressure from India, uncertainty over Pakistan’s finances and fears of the transfer of technology given Chinese involvement in the JF-17.

“We’re looking at the best option. The Damocles is a battle- proven system and the other options are not,” Arain said. “If we do not get the Damocles pod for example, then we will need to look for alternate options that may not be proven.” (Till then no haraam maal from godless China :rotfl: )

He said that in the long run, the air force was thinking about its needs beyond 2030 when F-16s and JF-17s would start to be replaced. (He means the requirements of the future Pakjabi Airforce).

The United States in February approved the sale to Pakistan of up to eight F-16 fighter jets for the short term, but Arain said even that was proving complicated. “It’s a much cheaper fighter jet, but buying more F-16s is economically not feasible for us and then there is a lot of human outcry,” he said.

Arain countered any suggestion that Pakistan might want greater air power to target India by saying that New Delhi itself was expanding its fleet.

“We get eight aircraft and there are people who start to say that it will tilt the balance of power in South Asia. But when somebody across the border buys 36 aircraft and has plans to buy 126, that doesn’t change the balance of power,” he said, referring to India.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krishna_krishna » 11 Apr 2016 08:21

Any idea about this new super duper maal

http://www.dawn.com/news/1251049/pakist ... ssful-test

Only one test and inducted into navy like all the super duper maals but seriously worried if Chipanda has given them cheap maal in numbers than can create havoc for IN surface fleet

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 11 Apr 2016 12:09

Speculated to be a c602 coastal battery.

Given PNs defensive orientation and paks small coastline, I am surprised they did not procure such a system previously

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby srai » 12 Apr 2016 03:53

Vipul wrote:PAF will continue to bomb its own territory for a long time :) .

...

Instead, 16 JF-17s will be produced this year with a further 20 in 2017, but Arain acknowledged that the jets’ usefulness in current operations was limited because it lacks precision targeting.

“Operationally, the aircraft are working pretty well so we if we had a targeting pod on the JF-17, the burden would be shared,” Arain said.

He said his visit to Paris was in part aimed at assessing from French officials the prospects of supplying the Thales-made Damocles, a third-generation targeting pod. He said was Islamabad’s priority for now.

Previous negotiations in 2010 for a deal worth 1.2 billion euros ($1.6 billion) worth of electronics and missiles collapsed under pressure from India, uncertainty over Pakistan’s finances and fears of the transfer of technology given Chinese involvement in the JF-17.

“We’re looking at the best option. The Damocles is a battle- proven system and the other options are not,” Arain said. “If we do not get the Damocles pod for example, then we will need to look for alternate options that may not be proven.”

...


No LGB/PGM capability yet then. Since they don't have access to Israeli Litening, options for targeting pods are limited at best. AFAIU, Damocles is inferior to the Litening and the French are working a next-gen version. No Chinese alternative suggests that the Chinese pods are not yet up to par and also a question mark on the quality of their PGMs, which one would think would have been the default option.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 12 Apr 2016 07:36

Porkies have one of the most advanced targeting pods in world, i.e. AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP).

Only problem is that its only available on costly/rare F-16s which they preserve as Ferrari. Hence their Bunders/Mirages are open to more baksheesh from their various all weather friends.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Bhaskar_T » 12 Apr 2016 08:01

How many refuelers does Pakistan have currently and how many they plan to acquire? Which of their aircraft has refuelling capability?


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