Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Bihanga
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Bihanga » 17 May 2016 16:26

http://m.hindustantimes.com/world/pakis ... tWibJ.html

India’s moves towards “second strike capability” in its nuclear programme would compel Pakistan to follow suit, an official of Pakistan's Strategic Plans Division has said, according to reports.

“Development of second strike capability (by India) … would put pressure on Pakistan to take remedial measures and develop its own version of the capability,” said the official from SPD, which serves as the secretariat of the country’s National Command Authority, Dawn newspaper reported on Sunday.

The reported successful testing of nuclear-capable K-4 Submarine-Launched Ballistic Missiles (SLBMs) last month from its nuclear-powered INS Arihant has taken India closer to what is described as “second-strike capability” in nuclear deterrence. It refers to the capability of a military to hit back at an enemy in a situation where its land-based nuclear arsenal had been neutralised.

The Pakistani official was speaking at a round-table discussion on ‘Growing Challenges to Strategic Stability in South Asia,’ organised by the Centre for International Strategic Studies (CISS), the paper reported.

Speakers at the CISS round-table discussion say that the reported SLBM tests by India will impact the delicate strategic balance of the region, it said.

Following the test, a statement issued by Pakistan’s Foreign Office had said: “The reported Indian tests of a Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile and development of a nuclear submarine fleet are serious developments, which impact the delicate strategic balance of the region. It has resulted in the nuclearisation of the Indian Ocean.”

Suggesting that Pakistan could have already moved in that direction, the SPD official recalled that Islamabad had set up its Naval Strategic Force Command (NSFC) in 2012.

At the time of the commissioning of NSFC Headquarters, the Inter-Services Public Relations had said that it “will perform a pivotal role in development and employment of the Naval Strategic Force. The Force, which is the custodian of the nation’s second strike capability, will strengthen Pakistan’s policy of Credible Minimum Deterrence and ensure regional stability”.

Former defence secretary, retired Lt Gen Naeem Khalid Lodhi, had claimed last year that Pakistan possessed second strike capability against India. However, defence analysts had questioned the claim, saying that Pakistan was yet to achieve submarine-based ‘assured second strike capability for stable deterrence.

The SPD official, speaking about India’s development of anti-ballistic missiles, said it could give its military planners “false sense of security” while contemplating military action against Pakistan.

He said up-gradation of military hardware by India for operationalising the Cold Start Doctrine, building a variety of nuclear capable missiles ranging from tactical weapons to intercontinental ballistic missiles, enabling of its nuclear triad, acquisition and up-gradation of aircraft carrier fleet and nuclear submarines were all worrisome developments that would destabilise the nuclear stability, Dawn reported.

Alongside these, the official said, India was also “disturbing sub-conventional stability” by shifting Pakistan military’s orientation from external to internal security challenges by using its intelligence agencies.

At the round-table, Dr Zafar Nawaz Jaspal of the Quaid-i-Azam University said it would be wishful to think of strategic stability in the region as long as mistrust existed between India and Pakistan.

He said although there was imbalance of power between India and Pakistan, still ‘balance of terror’ (due to modernisation of weaponry) was sustaining a semblance of strategic stability in the region.

Dr Riffat Hussain, a professor at NUST, said that any additional military capability acquired by India would hurt Pakistan.

CISS Executive Director Ambassador Ali Sarwar Naqvi said that Pakistan needed to closely watch the India-US strategic partnership, especially in the context of the upcoming Logistic Support Agreement (LSA) and accordingly assess its policy options. LSA is to be signed later this year between India and the US.

The prospects of conflict between the two nuclear armed rivals have only increased due to absence of an institutional dialogue process and “deliberate escalation by India” both by covert and overt instruments against Pakistan, he added.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Viv S » 22 May 2016 06:09

Time running out for Pakistan on F-16 decision

BAQIR SAJJAD SYED

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is left with barely a few days to decide if it will pay for the eight F-16 aircraft it intends to procure from the United States from its own kitty or else lose the opportunity of buying the jets believed to be one of the best fourth-generation multi-role fighters.

If Pakistan still desires to buy the F-16s, it would have to issue the Letter of Acceptance (LoA) by May 24,” a diplomatic source said. Pakistan has been reluctant to issue the LoA for the purchase of the fighters after the US Congress barred the administration from subsidising the sale through the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme.

Under the initial financing arrangement, the US was to pay about $430 million for the eight jets worth $699 million from FMF funds, while the remaining cost was to be borne by Pakistan itself. But, after the Congressional hold on partially financing the deal through FMF, Washington asked Islamabad to foot the bill from its national resources.

Islamabad rejected the idea of fully paying for the aircraft and refused to make any pledge unless the restriction on financing through FMF was lifted.

Adviser to the Prime Minister on Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz, meanwhile, said that if the issue was not resolved Pakistan could explore the possibility of buying some other aircraft to meet its requirements.

The diplomatic source said that the opportunity to buy the F-16s could be lost after the expiry of the offer, in case Pakistan missed the deadline. The cut-off date, he stressed, was particularly important because the F-16 manufacturer Lockheed Martin was planning to close the production line of the aircraft at Fort Worth, Texas, by the end of next year. Pakistan was expected to be one of the last two customers. The financing row is under discussion between Pakistan and the US, but the source was not much optimistic about Congress withdrawing its restriction without Islamabad taking steps to address its concerns. “Realistically speaking that is unlikely to happen in four days,” he maintained.

Congress wants Pakistan to take action against the Haqqani network; give assurances about ending its tactical weapons and restricting medium-range Shaheen III ballistic missile; and free Dr Shakeel Afridi, who remained part of the US hunt for Al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden before he was killed in a raid by Special Forces on his Abbottabad hideout.

Despite the continuing controversy, positive statements have been issued by both Pakistan’s Foreign Office and the US State Department over the past few days indicating their desire to move ahead.

“Pakistan-US bilateral relationship is much larger and broader than the F-16 issue,” FO Spokesman Nafees Zakaria said at the weekly media briefing on Thursday. The statements, a diplomatic observer believes, were meant to prevent distraction from other big issues in the relationship including Afghanistan, trade and civilian assistance.

Meanwhile, Mr Zakaria confirmed on Friday the May 24 deadline for LoA. To Dawn’s query, he said: “We are aware of it. The discussions among the US administration and Con­g­ress as well as between Pakistan and the US are continuing. It’s a time-consuming process. We derive sat­is­faction from the fact that the US administration is fully supportive as far as sale and FMF are concerned.”

Published in Dawn, May 21st, 2016

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gagan » 25 May 2016 18:56

Bunkers in a Heli station near Gizri, Karachi

Naval Facility. The place is located next to Baharia Township in Clifton, Karachi. Pak faujis and navy walas like to hide in a small area surrounded by civilian areas

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Main Bunker
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 25 May 2016 19:20

Americans already found a way to fund the F-16's?

http://xxx.dawn.com/news/1260453/us-sen ... r-pakistan

Jumma come early in pakiland.

http://xxx.dawn.com/news/1260555/three- ... n-peshawar

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 25 May 2016 19:22

TAI in Talks to Upgrade Pakistani F-16s
ANKARA, Turkey — Tusas Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is negotiating with Pakistan to upgrade 74 Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 fighters, company officials said.

“The negotiations are being held through our Pakistani representative,” a TAI official said. “We are hopeful about an eventual deal in view of our excellent relations with PAF.”


If finalized the deal will involve upgrades on a batch of 74 PAF F-16 aircraft, including 14 fighters Pakistan will acquire from Jordan.

But for any Turkish-Pakistani deal a US go-ahead is required. “We are in talks [with the Pakistani officials] but it is not certain that we shall win the contract,” the TAI official said. “These [Pakistani] aircraft will need a US permission for any upgrade program.”

In an earlier upgrade program for 41 F-16s, Pakistan wanted the job to be done locally but failed to win US permission. But the US agreed that TAI could carry out the upgrade work.


In September 2014, TAI delivered the last batch of four upgraded F-16s to PAF. That program involved avionics and structural modernization.

TAI, which assembled F-16 fighter jets in Turkey in the 1980s and 1990s, today manufactures parts for Boeing helicopter-maker Sikorsky. The company also is a participant in the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program and the A400M, known in Turkey as the Future Large Aircraft.

TAI has upgraded scores of Turkish F-16s, too. But in a more ambitious program the company has been designing an indigenous Turkish fighter aircraft.

“Pakistan wants the new upgrade program to be done locally, like in the first program,” said a Turkish procurement official. “Local upgrade work is their first choice but if they fail to win the US permission for that they will probably go for the TAI option, like in the previous deal.”


A team of TAI and Turkish procurement officials will visit Pakistan in July for detailed talks on the F-16 upgrade program.

A Turkish official said that Ankara expects contract negotiations with Pakistan, including potential US approval for TAI’s upgrade deal, would take around two years.

“There is a lot to discuss, negotiate and discuss and negotiate again,” said one procurement official familiar with the contract.

He said that at this stage it is not clear what the Pakistani upgrade program will involve.

“The [Pakistani] requirement is not clear in terms of technological concept,” the official said. “It is not clear at this stage what upgrades would be involved and how much the work will cost.”

The previous TAI-PAF contract covering upgrades on 41 aircraft was worth $64.5 million. The 2008 deal saw TAI upgrade Pakistan’s older and then-newly acquired surplus F-16s to Block-52+ standard from 2010 onward.

Industry sources say if the Pakistani requirement is similar to that in the previous contract the new deal could be around $100 million.

Turkey and Pakistan traditionally have had good political relations. In recent years Pakistan has become an emerging market for Turkey’s defense companies, including a deal for the midlife upgrade of Pakistani F-16s, and Turkish engineering support for a logistical support ship for the Pakistani Navy.

A deal for a fleet tanker/replenishment ship was signed by Pakistan's Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works and Turkish technology and engineering firm STM in 2014. The vessel will be built in Karachi under STM supervision and delivered in 2017.

But Turkish officials usually view Pakistan as “not rich enough in cash” to buy the equipment or work Turkish companies wish to sell. A large Turkish-Pakistani deal to help Pakistan build Turkish designed corvettes fizzled out in 2009 when Pakistan's economy tanked, and matters have hardly improved since then.

Yet Turkey also is trying to sell two more of its indigenous systems to Pakistan: the Hurkus, a basic trainer aircraft and the T-129, a helicopter gunship TAI produces under license from the Italian-British AgustaWestlan. For any deal to sell the T-129, however, Turkey must obtain US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the attack helicopter.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 26 May 2016 17:53

LoL looks like Z9 is not up to scratch.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sum » 27 May 2016 04:09


Who is paying for this?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 27 May 2016 08:12

Just read that one single comment left on this article, that will answer your query on who is paying for this new deal. My iPad was so shocked it rebooted itself :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 27 May 2016 15:51

Sid wrote:Just read that one single comment left on this article, that will answer your query on who is paying for this new deal. My iPad was so shocked it rebooted itself :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Someone on this forum needs to 'fess up...

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Prem » 27 May 2016 22:15

sum wrote:
venug wrote:Pakistan acquiring AW139 helicoptersWho is paying for this?


Per Pakislam, Payment is Haram .
Did u not read the story of Abraham? He paid naat for the lamb sacrifice And Paki have been making sacrifices ever since they were harvested by Arab.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 29 May 2016 12:06

AW139 is already in service with Paap Army:

http://aasqk.yolasite.com/agusta-westland-aw-139.php

And like all things Italian ... its a pretty one

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Ashokk » 01 Jun 2016 01:33

Pakistan in talks with Russia for buying MI-35 attack helicopters
Pakistan is in negotiations with Russia for buying its MI-35 attack helicopters and a deal could be clinched within two months, minister for defence production Rana Tanveer Hussain has said.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 01 Jun 2016 04:08

Wasn't this the deal for the second hand Mi-35's (4) that was signed a while back? Or was it not signed yet? I hope India makes it a point to gift a few more (6-8) Mi-35's to Afghanistan as LCH comes online.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 03 Jun 2016 19:52

the deal on chahbahar will have caused enough distress in isloo, no need to worry about mirchi with more goodies...

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kartik » 03 Jun 2016 22:45

Bheeshma wrote:Wasn't this the deal for the second hand Mi-35's (4) that was signed a while back? Or was it not signed yet? I hope India makes it a point to gift a few more (6-8) Mi-35's to Afghanistan as LCH comes online.


Apparently they're looking to buy 12 Mi-35s.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby BharadwajV » 03 Jun 2016 23:37

And also looking at the TurdoganMangusta and Ada class corvettes for their Terrorist Navy.
But like so many such news items from AlBak, they fall under the very broad category of "Wet Dreams".
http://en.trend.az/world/turkey/2541889.html

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sudeepj » 04 Jun 2016 08:59

Turkish economy is in the shitter.. Erdogan cant afford to just 'gift' them these weapons.. and Paks cant afford to buy them..

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Yagnasri » 04 Jun 2016 09:05

sudeepj wrote:Turkish economy is in the shitter.. Erdogan cant afford to just 'gift' them these weapons.. and Paks cant afford to buy them..


Erdogan already living in a wet neo-ottoman dream. So he will do all kinds of things like this and ISIS-supporting. When you are on a Jihad you do crazy things.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shanu » 04 Jun 2016 20:51

Kartik wrote:Apparently they're looking to buy 12 Mi-35s.


As we move ahead to LCH and Apache Longbow, its good to see that Al Bakistan is buying things which belonged to our past generation of war machines.

Finally, we are creating the generation gap in conventional capabilities - which will ensure that there is no future conventional misadventure (like Kargil). Of course, one swallow doesn't ensure summer, but with an efficient Government at our Center, this may get repeated in other fields as well.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 04 Jun 2016 22:01

Gagan wrote:Bunkers in a Heli station near Gizri, Karachi

Naval Facility. The place is located next to Baharia Township in Clifton, Karachi. Pak faujis and navy walas like to hide in a small area surrounded by civilian areas.....


Thanks. This may be a NBC shelter for Pak Fauzis, or perhaps a C&C centre. It does not look like not a storage or weapons complex.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gagan » 04 Jun 2016 22:11

It is more like a 2 generation gap between India and Pakistan in technology.
There is already an insurmountable lead that India has in numbers!

Militarily, the pakistanis just don't stand a chance !
India's defense budget is already the size of the big european countries - Britain, Germany, France etc.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gagan » 04 Jun 2016 22:13

More like a Pakistan Navy NBC proofed C&C center.
Bahriya (navy) colony is just adjoining this, so this was PN land to begin with.

But this will be a high-value target, even if it is located in an area surrounded by noncombatants

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_29068 » 06 Jun 2016 20:58

not sure whether this is a correct forum but, @18:50 Wajahat Hussain says PNS Zulfiqar's DB system actually runs on Windows. Definitely Pirated I'm sure!! :rotfl: :rotfl: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzGang3uzOQ&ab_channel=DunyaNews]

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 06 Jun 2016 21:17

^^lol dont know why but this guy wajahat is pompous like heck; his vids though informative are affected by that..

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kartik » 06 Jun 2016 22:48


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 07 Jun 2016 00:13

The pakis are hoping the T129 will help counter LCH. The specs are more for hot and high altitude warfare but I doubt it can match LCH. More importantly pakis cannot afford to pay for 1 squadron and the engine is american ( Honeywell and Rolls royce) and will need US export approval. Don't see that happening anytime.

Regarding the ADA class, its not found favor with turkish navy itself which wants a bigger ship and the ESSM will never be approved for pakistan.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 07 Jun 2016 23:36

Pakistan manufactured one F-22P Frigate, and I believe has the license for more. At the moment they have committed to 2 Azmat FAC(M)s. I don't see how this corvette fits into the picture as they are better off continuing the production run of these 2 ship classes.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 08 Jun 2016 01:27

They also "manufactured" an agosta-90b but have to beg china for a kilo copy. That shows the kind of manufacturing capability they have.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 08 Jun 2016 01:27

They also "manufactured" an agosta-90b but have to beg china for a kilo copy. That shows the kind of manufacturing capability they have.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 08 Jun 2016 01:27

They also "manufactured" an agosta-90b but have to beg china for a kilo copy. That shows the kind of manufacturing capability they have.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2016 13:47

The Sultan of the neo-Ottomans is reported to be upgrading the PN's Agosta-90Bs from this report.Other deals in the offing,are attack helos. Perhaps the PAF can't get a large enough "cut" from Ru,and these Turkish built helos are actually from AW!

http://thediplomat.com/2016/06/will-tur ... ine-fleet/
Will Turkey Modernize Pakistan’s Attack Submarine Fleet?
Istanbul and Islamabad are in talks over upgrading three Pakistan Navy diesel-electric attack submarines.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
June 07, 2016

Turkish Defense Minister Fikri Işık met his Pakistani counterpart, Khawaja Muhammad Asif, on June 3 in Islamabad to discuss bilateral defense relations including a contract to modernize the Pakistan Navy’s three Agosta 90B-class (aka Khalid-class) diesel-electric attack submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion systems, Hurriyet Daily News reports.

According to the Turkish daily Milliyet, Turkey’s defense minister expects a deal to be signed by the end of this month. No additional details about the Turkey-Pakistan defense deal have so far been revealed.

Some Pakistani defense analysts have speculated that the upgrade could entail the modernization of the Khalid-class submarines’ combat management system, by, for example, Turkish defense contractor Havelsan, who has successfully developed a combat management system for the Turkish Navy’s submarine fleet — primarily consisting of variants of German Type 209 boats.

While in Pakistan, Turkey’s defense minister also discussed the possible sale of four Ada-class stealth corvettes and T-129 multi-role attack helicopters. “One of the most important issues between [the two countries] is a deal for T129 attack helicopters,” Işık said during a press conference.

The T-129 is a multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter co-developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries and AgustaWestland. The aircraft is currently operated by the Turkish Army and is being offered for export to a number of other countries, besides Pakistan.

Islamabad considered purchasing the helicopter a few years back, but ultimately opted for the Bell Helicopters AH-1Z Viper due to the United States’ unwillingness to clear the export of the T-129’s U.S.-made turboshaft engines (LHTEC CTS-800-4A, an engine primarily developed for the cancelled Boeing–Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche helicopter).

The four Ada-class corvettes would be built in Pakistan, according to the minister, although previous press reports indicated that only three ships would be constructed in Karachi over a ten-year period. The Ada-class vessels are littoral combat warships, primarily designed for offshore and high-sea patrolling, but can also be used for anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare missions during wartime.

Pakistan has allegedly also expressed interest in Turkey’s first indigenously-designed, third generation+ main battle tank (MBT) Altay. However, “[r]eports that Pakistan is interested in the Altay have to take into account that Turkey’s new MBT will be an expensive acquisition for the Pakistan Army since the Altay is based on Western tank designs and will be a NATO-standard MBT,” as I reported previously.

Discussions over the Altay MBT apparently did not take place during last week’s visit.

During his stay, Işık also met Pakistan Army Chief, General Raheel Sharif, in Rawalpindi. “During the meeting, matters of mutual interest including regional security and defense collaboration came under discussion. Turkish Defense Minister appreciated Pakistan Army’s accomplishments in Op ZeA [Operation Zarb-e-Azb] and contributions towards regional peace and stability,” according to a Pakistan Army press release.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kartik » 16 Jun 2016 00:22

TSP eyes used Jordanian F-16s after deal to buy new jets fails

Bhikhaaris cannot afford new F-16s on their own and they're talking about looking at the French option..sticker shock will cause involuntary bowel movements in them.

After a deal with the US for the purchase of new F-16 fighter jets collapsed, Pakistan is now considering buying a fleet of 16 used jets from Jordan. The Defence Secretary of Pakistan also hinted at exploring Russian and French markets for state-of-the-art fifth generation fighters.

Pakistan was reportedly forced to look at other buyers after the US Congress refused to fund its purchase, accusing the country of not taking adequate action against militant groups present in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The country needs to procure the fighter jets on an urgent basis to fill in the gaps that will be created once it decommissions the Block-15 F-16s from its current fleet in the next couple of years.

Pakistani daily The Dawn quoted Defence Secretary Lt Gen Alam Khattak as telling a joint sitting of the Senate defence and foreign affairs committees that they are now going to consider an offer from Jordan "for a third-party transfer of F-16s". He said that although the used Block-30 F-16s offered by Jordan would not be on par with the Block-52 they planned to buy from the US, they will have to procure them and update them to meet their requirements.

Pakistan's current fleet of F-16s has about a dozen from Jordan that were bought in 2014. The aircraft that Jordan has now offered to sell were manufactured in 1988/1990 and were upgraded in 2001/2002. However, the jets, if bought, will have to be upgraded again to meet the requirements of the Pakistani Air Force.

Meanwhile, the Pakistan defence ministry is worried about Washington's response to the deal, given it is mandatory for them to get an approval from the US before it proceeds with the deal with Jordan. Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan reportedly said that the US has so far not objected to the said deal, but admitted garnering support would be tough.

The US-Pakistan deal reportedly fell through because the US was not happy with the actions the Asian country took against militant outfits like the Taliban, Haqqani network and Lashkar-i-Taiba and also over concerns about the country's missile and nuclear programme.

Pakistan is expected to consider hiring lobbying firms in Washington to improve its ties with the Congress to prevent such deal failures in future, the Dawn report said.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Khalsa » 16 Jun 2016 03:22

I get a feeling that the Pakistani F-16s maybe destined for Jordan.
I believe Modi should recommend that happen since the true fights against IS lies well within combat radius of Jordanians F-16s

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sudeepj » 16 Jun 2016 03:34

There can be no transfers of weapon systems without permission from the US. The only thing that these planes can be used for is to threaten India. Pakistan can use some super tucano type turbo prop aircraft against the terrorists. If its terrorists that Pakistan wants to target, thats the only kind of weapon system they need. We can even offer a version of our combat hawk or an armed version of the HTT. :-P

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krishna_krishna » 16 Jun 2016 03:41

It can also be finance by massa to play both sides. Otherwise we all know how rich they are and given special status Jordan has with massa this is blessed secretly by massa that is how I would read it. Also they would be upgraded by turkey hence payment can be made showing money paid to turkey for Syrian fight. All happy.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 16 Jun 2016 05:25

sudeepj wrote:. Pakistan can use some super tucano type turbo prop aircraft against the terrorists. If its terrorists that Pakistan wants to target, thats the only kind of weapon system they need.

Dead right. Pakistanis have been squeezing the US and the US has always bent to their blackmail imagining that F-16s are needed to target terrorists on the ground. In part, it is possible that Gen Dynamics have been paying off people in the USG to keep their line open - but that is now coming to an end now with the F-35.

A future step that I am not looking forward to is the supply of F-35 to Pakistan. But Saudi/Turkey have to get them first.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 16 Jun 2016 05:35

Why not cessna caravan that irag is using. Of course India as a good neighbor should offer weaponized HTT-40

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby brar_w » 16 Jun 2016 06:26

In part, it is possible that Gen Dynamics have been paying off people in the USG to keep their line open - but that is now coming to an end now with the F-35.


General Dynamics is Lockheed Martin now, and they have been producing the F-16 at the bare minimum production volume required to sustain the line for some years. The last surge in production came with UAE order and it again drew down after that to pretty much the minimum required to sustain a financially viable production line. The USAF itself, hasn't purchased the aircraft since the 1990's, and hasn't really spent any significant money in developing a follow on to the block 50/52 for themselves (The reason UAE dropped out of the F-16U). Compared to Lockheed's F-16, Boeing has had much more success with the F-15 and F/A-18 legacy lines thanks to a string of orders for the Strike Eagle from South Korea, Singapore, and Saudi Arabia (with Qatar apparently in waiting) and with the USN, and Australia (And possibly Kuwait and Canada) for the upgraded Super Hornet and Growler.

Lockheed could not 'lobby' the US Government to maintain the financing deal for the Paki F-16's that essentially killed any chance of them (LMA) of delivering new F-16's to an existing customer int he PAF. Regarding the F-35 and the ME, Turkey is a program partner (form the start) but besides them, they have been quite open about not exporting it to either of the remming ME nations for a while now. One of the highest ranking officials reinstated that position less than a year ago (I think it was at IDEX 2015). This has forced the Saudi's to acquire upgraded F-15SA's, Qatar the Rafale, and F-15SA, and UAE most likely the Rafale as well. The Eurofigther Typhoon has and will most likely also continue to benefit from this lack of F-35 to these nations at least for the medium term. Don't expect a non Israeli FMS F-35 to be operating in the Middle East even a decade - 15 years from now.

Pakistan just got denied financing on the F-16, there is absolutely no way that they will get, or will be able to afford the F-35. The prospects of them operating a new western fighter aircraft (any) are pretty much ZERO. Their long term hope is probably the J-10 and some J-31's provided they can get Russian engine approval or provided China puts in a less capable local engine for export. Jordanian F-16's may be an option for them but realistically they would hardly have much capability left in them in terms of valuable life left to warrant even a half decent upgrade. One could even argue that those would probably come it at a higher cost, with lower quality than buying new built J-10's if indeed those are offered to them.
Last edited by brar_w on 16 Jun 2016 14:15, edited 2 times in total.

Kashi
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kashi » 16 Jun 2016 06:51

brar_w wrote:Pakistan just got denied financing on the F-16, there is absolutely no way that they will get, or will be able to afford the F-35. The prospects of them operating a new western fighter aircraft (any) are pretty much ZERO. Their long term hope is probably the J-10 and some J-31's provided they can get Russian engine approval or provided China puts in a less capable local engine for export. Jordanian F-16's may be an option for them but realistically they would hardly have much capability left in them in terms of valuable life left to warrant even a half decent upgrade. One could even argue that those would probably come it at a higher cost, with lower quality than buying new built J-10's if indeed those are offered to them.


They could go for Gripen. Not sure why they haven't gone down that route.


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