Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles- Akash Success or failure??

Postby ramana » 03 May 2014 01:45

ray_donovan wrote:I saw two reports which said two different things.

Indian Express says Akash test failed

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/odisha/Successive-Failure-of-Akash-Trial/2014/05/01/article2199350.ece

Livemint says it was a success

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/7uBMnDAokFXieMvPS2mXDM/Akash-surfacetoair-missile-testfired.html

So what is what? :shock:

Facts from above two articles:

Rout article says test on Tuesday was not successful as the PTA did not take off. Its more like launch was aborted. IOW this was a "no test".

IAF then wanted 4 tests- 2 against PTA towed targets and 2 against para dropped barrel targets.

Rout says the first of the 2 latter tests had a no ignition of the test vehicle. This happens for many reasons:igniter issues, squib electrical interface etc. So again it was a 'no test'.

hough the Akash team could not immediately figure out the exact cause of the failure of the missile to take off, defence experts said it was a perennial technical problem with the Akash missile system.

It was the missile’s second failure in the recent seven-test series by the IAF. On May 28 and 30, 2012, the missile had failed to take off from the launch pad at the ITR. The tests were to gauge the flight consistency and effectiveness of the missile.


I would venture to say its the squib interface as most such problems are electrical in nature.

The second article is by PTI which means its a no brainer press release. And it worked. This is confirmed by the TOI article.

The good news is all of these are by service personnel and means development is done. Its user trials to seek out reliability readiness and all those "ilities" that are being tested.
The no fire due to non-ignition would count for readiness and not the reliability bucket.

Positive note is the system is safe as the scientists/personnel are able to resume testing soon afterwards.
Now the IA will conduct their batch of tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28502 » 03 May 2014 02:31

Successive Failure of 'Akash' Trial


that means it was success.

as it comes from the word Succeed

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby TSJones » 03 May 2014 03:17

Nijalingappa wrote:
Successive Failure of 'Akash' Trial


that means it was success.

as it comes from the word Succeed


You should get your facts right before you get foot in mouth disease.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/successive

Akash is certainly correct. *Not you*.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 03 May 2014 08:41

Akash Missile Test Fired Again in Odisha
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/akash ... sha-517605

Balasore, Odisha: In a perfect launch of the same missile for the second day in a row, India today successfully test fired the indigenously-developed surface-to-air Akash missile as part of a user trial from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur in Odisha.

was test fired for the second consecutive day at about 2.28 pm from launch complex-3 of the ITR, defence sources said.

Akash, which aimed at a para-barrel target during the trial

Two Akash missiles were successfully test fired from the same base on April 26 while another such missile also hit the target yesterday, an official said, adding today's test fire was also another success story.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28502 » 03 May 2014 08:59

TSJones wrote:
You should get your facts right before you get foot in mouth disease.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/successive

Akash is certainly correct. *Not you*.


well you need a tonne of Listerine and nothing assured for fundamentally wrong head for the linguistic skills
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=successive
suc·ces·sive

late Middle English: from medieval Latin successivus, from success- ‘followed closely,’ from the verb succedere (see succeed).


Education my dear not foot in mouth copy paste.
I still have hope for you. such is the power of BRF even though you Barf in other mavericks worlds :mrgreen:
Last edited by member_28502 on 03 May 2014 08:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 03 May 2014 08:59

The reason for Navy going for Barak may be because of its smaller size and weight. Also this capability makes it becomes easier to fit them on smaller ships and just adequate to deal with incoming targets like missiles. Work must continue in making a follow on version of Barak-8 with 100 percent indigenous content and mass production for all the three services.

Image

What we lack now is a ship with anti-ballistic missile capability.

Hope soon Navy will start building Cruisers armed with AAD

One more area where we lack is a medium range Anti ship missile in the league of Naval Strike Missile. A missile with size of four meters and able to go 300 km with 125kg warhead will be an added advantage to arm ships the size of corvettes and even patrol vessels. Brahmos M may be able to be fitted on to Corvette size vessels. Surely the Indian Navy will need minimum of four medium range missiles on patrol boats to deal with the kind of frigates or armed vessels which they will meet during a war. Its better to have such a capability.

Another big area of our weakness is the lack of air defense capability for our patrol vessels and other vessels. Its better to equip them with such capability. Hope there will be a new project started as soon as possible for the SRSAM and we can plug this capability gap. Must be in a position to put patrol boats at sea individually during war. This will be an added advantage and if properly armed the boats can do multitasking as the threat arises.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 03 May 2014 10:02

uddu wrote:What we lack now is a ship with anti-ballistic missile capability.

Hope soon Navy will start building Cruisers armed with AAD


That would be good-to-have but not a real must-have. What will that sea-based AAD intercept ? The likely path of an attack from likely adversaries would be over land. And with the range of AAD, at best you can only do a terminal interception and just count the number of cities on the coastline. So, better to have land-based AADs. And more important than those sea-based AADs would be to have AADs that can intercept ICBMs - a modern-day Sprint missile without the nuke warhead. And then, start manufacturing thousands of them.


One more area where we lack is a medium range Anti ship missile in the league of Naval Strike Missile. A missile with size of four meters and able to go 300 km with 125kg warhead will be an added advantage to arm ships the size of corvettes and even patrol vessels. Brahmos M may be able to be fitted on to Corvette size vessels. Surely the Indian Navy will need minimum of four medium range missiles on patrol boats to deal with the kind of frigates or armed vessels which they will meet during a war. Its better to have such a capability.

With extended range, you'll now start running into target designation limits. Due to line of sight limitations, it won't be able to see the enemy ships at 300 km. At best, it becomes a launcher based on sat nav guidance for land attack (like in 1971 war when IN attacked Karachi).

Another big area of our weakness is the lack of air defense capability for our patrol vessels and other vessels. Its better to equip them with such capability. Hope there will be a new project started as soon as possible for the SRSAM and we can plug this capability gap. Must be in a position to put patrol boats at sea individually during war. This will be an added advantage and if properly armed the boats can do multitasking as the threat arises.


That was what first Trishul and then Maitri were supposed to do. Haven't heard any new news about Maitri.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 03 May 2014 11:14

The need to have anti ballistic missile defense for the Navy when they venture outside the Indian ocean. As the nation grows and when the Navy will be needed to venture out to protect our interests the need to protect the task-force from ballistic missile attacks arise. The land based defense is a must. No question about that. Dont have detail of the AD-1 and AD-2 anti ballistic missile being planned. Possibly one of them is designed and developed for ship based anti ballistic missile defense. Until then we could go ahead with AAD missiles or the follow on version of AAD.

In modern networked environment the range to detect and launch missiles may not be a problem. Especially so close to two Navies that's so hostile and well armed, its better to put AShM's on Patrol vessels, so that they themselves can take out the target rather than wait for help.

Yes Trishul did not succeed. But we seems to have stopped on that path to develop a Short range AAM. Maitri is no where in sight. If not with French assistance, its better to go alone, rather than wait for years. With todays technological capability, this seems very possible.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby KiranM » 03 May 2014 11:59

srin wrote:
That would be good-to-have but not a real must-have. What will that sea-based AAD intercept ? The likely path of an attack from likely adversaries would be over land. And with the range of AAD, at best you can only do a terminal interception and just count the number of cities on the coastline. So, better to have land-based AADs. And more important than those sea-based AADs would be to have AADs that can intercept ICBMs - a modern-day Sprint missile without the nuke warhead. And then, start manufacturing thousands of them.


Cities very important to India's economy are coastal like Mumbai, Chennai, Kochi, Mangalore and near coastal (~500km from coast) like Bangalore, Pune. So depressed trajectory launched SLBMs from PLAN SSBNs will be a valid threat 10+ years from now (When PLAN gains experience and number of SSBNs).

While the terminal and late midcourse phase interception will be taken care by land based BMD, they will not be able to handle such depressed trajectories with short interception window. This is where a naval based BMD will be of vital importance to intercept during boost phase of an SLBM launch close to coastline. Terminal interception of DF-21D types targetted at a flotilla will be a bonus. We will need a missile small enough to be carried in few numbers (2-4) by platforms as small as OPVs/ corvettes combined with high acceleration to intercept in 3-4 min of the boost phase when the missile is most vulnerable.

Most important of all, we will need a sophisticated early warning system to detect such launches near the coast.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby TSJones » 03 May 2014 14:20

With extended range, you'll now start running into target designation limits. Due to line of sight limitations, it won't be able to see the enemy ships at 300 km. At best, it becomes a launcher based on sat nav guidance for land attack (like in 1971 war when IN attacked Karachi).


In the fog of war stuff happens. Things can go to hell in a hand basket in a hurry. Sometimes it's serendipity and sometimes it's kismet. Ask Taffy-3 of the US Navy in the battle for the Phiippines. You don't want to be caught without heat when somebody's big brother shows up. And it aways seems to happen. You can almost count on it. So what if a patrol boat can't see 300 km? Remember serendipity? What if the patrol boat gets a flash from a fishing trawler that they spotted an enemy frigate bearing down on gps coordinates? You are in a state of war. You turn tail and run from a stronger enemy? Or do you act on opportunity information *if* you got a 300 km missile at your command?

My greatest fear is for Coast Guard cutters. They will be meat in a sea going dog fight. Without the ability to strike they are goners because they will respond. Fearlessly. It is their job. Mandatory.

My step dad was on a US Navy destroyer off the Philippines when the captain announced to all hands that a Japanese *battleship* was in the area and if sighted they would fire port side torpedoes, then starboard torpedoes and then ram. My step dad assured me that most of the crew found God after that all hands announcement. It would have been like a puppy dog attacking a mack truck. Thankfully a US carrier task force founf that battleship before they did.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 03 May 2014 17:25

Other things being equal:

SLBMs if they have short boost phases have a short range and correspondingly a shorter window for Boost phase interception.

SLBMs if they have long boost phases have longer ranges and correspondingly the BMD missile will have to travel that much more with attendant difficulties of large volume searches.

How many Boost phase BMD systems are their. Then how many Boost phase BMD systems are deployed on ships.

Ain't gonna happen, ever.

If you seriously hate money you can at best think of space based systems to take on a missile at boost phase. For shorter ranges perhaps, just perhaps an aircraft based BMD system. Perhaps if you are a outlier personality, you could even think of directed energy weapons & sensors on aircrafts. But on ships - nako bai.

Best is the terminal phase. With advances in computing and sensors this is the only really doable thing. For ameer countries like US the mid course options are open.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 03 May 2014 19:34

Austin wrote:Barak-8 is a good SAM but the naive thing to do is to bind it to P-15A when the SAM was just on drawing board , knowing from Trishul experince they should have avoided the mistake and such project barely end up on time and cost.

The long range Barak-8 is the good Barak-8 with fat booster to increase its range by putting it on high altitude flat trajectory

Austin i thought even Barak-8 flies such a trajectory that is what Aster 15/30 do as well. As for the missile yes i am aware that it is Barak-8 with large booster but what is not known does use the same VLS launcher or new one.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby udy » 04 May 2014 10:24

In the samachar may 2014 hindi newsletter of drdo (pg 4), there is a picture of the Agni 5 canister launch vehicle firing(dummy?).
Maybe someone can translate the article and post the photo

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby gashish » 04 May 2014 14:55

AoA!!

India's ASTRA BVRAAM Testfired From IAF Flanker

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/05/indias-astra-bvraam-testfired-from-iaf.html

Acche din aanewale hain.. :D



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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 04 May 2014 17:17

Which seeker is Astra using? Agat?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sudhan » 04 May 2014 18:23

AoA indeed! :) The smokeless flame looks awesome :)

Was there any target to be destroyed for this test? Or just a live fire from an a/c?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 May 2014 18:56

This Astra launch may very well be one of the most beautiful pictures I might have ever seen.

Where to start?

*An IAF Flanker
*An Indian Air-to-Air missile
*Beautiful smokeless exhaust of the missile

8)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 04 May 2014 19:29

I have a question to gurus, is Astra a hot-launched missile only? or it can be cold launched also. The hot exhaust under Flanker scares me.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 04 May 2014 20:29

Very good going. We can think of a ground based version which can supplement the Spyder system. Missile is in our arsenal. Ground launch is said to give a range of 20kms. Will be superior to Spyder.
Wheeled and tracked variants will be of use for the army and air force. Even a Naval variant. Now there exists a lot of possibilities.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 04 May 2014 20:47

kmkraoind wrote:I have a question to gurus, is Astra a hot-launched missile only? or it can be cold launched also. The hot exhaust under Flanker scares me.


Valid question. As per the CFD studies by DRDO, the launch rails of SU-30 MKI will not be in safe condition at > 15 km altitude. So, they are not testing it at that altitude. But, remember, this was only for testing.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby krishnan » 04 May 2014 21:02

waiting for it to be test fired from Tejas

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 05 May 2014 01:45

kmkraoind wrote:I have a question to gurus, is Astra a hot-launched missile only? or it can be cold launched also. The hot exhaust under Flanker scares me.

Even the air launch Brahmos is not Cold launch it will additional weight and there is no need for it. Not to mention dangerous, If the missile booster fails to ignite after it gets ejected or sec to slow it won't be pretty...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 May 2014 04:28

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 652986.cms
"All Astra systems except the RF seeker are made in the country. The seeker too will be produced in India under a transfer of technology programme. Once fully operational, Astra will be much cheaper than contemporary BVR missiles," said an official.

any idea who is supplying the seekers? israel?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 05 May 2014 06:08

Thanks for the translation

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 05 May 2014 06:16

Any videos of the lauch ????

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 May 2014 08:05

TCT 5 - pretty good looking imo. looks like they even ignited a limited version of the 1st stage booster to ensure the dummy missile falls away safely from the vehicle.

65tons leaves a good margin. the RS24 yars is only 50t.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 05 May 2014 08:13

Singha wrote:TCT 5 - pretty good looking imo. looks like they even ignited a limited version of the 1st stage booster to ensure the dummy missile falls away safely from the vehicle.

65tons leaves a good margin. the RS24 yars is only 50t.

Probably factoring a possible heavier weight Agni 6-7 ? :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 May 2014 08:15

^ maybe 65t is with tube also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRxdTiVSuNo

interesting way in which russia loads their topol-M into silos. rather than use a crane to lower the missile, they grab the entire transporter vehicle , make it vertical and slide the missile tube slowly into the silo! it takes one hour but prevents the missile swinging around on a crane and harness.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 05 May 2014 08:22

the 350 tons refers to a dynamic load of 350 Tons as per another discussion board.

96 Shri S P Shaha Sc. 'E' (Retd) VRD / CARS – 2008 / 11Dt: 30-Jun-08 For "Estimation of Ground Sinking Due to 400 t Dynamic Load Transfer Through Canister for A5 TCT Vehicle" (Contract VRDE- 5, Metallic Canister) VRDE Jun-08 5 Months 22,000/- 9.92

http://www.idsandt.org/pune/projects.php

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 05 May 2014 08:38

SaiK wrote:any idea who is supplying the seekers? israel?

That is an AGAT seeker, from Russia.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pradeepe » 05 May 2014 09:07

The second pic is a beauty.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 May 2014 10:41

compared to the amraam very large midbody fins.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 05 May 2014 12:20

chackojoseph wrote:
kmkraoind wrote:I have a question to gurus, is Astra a hot-launched missile only? or it can be cold launched also. The hot exhaust under Flanker scares me.


Valid question. As per the CFD studies by DRDO, the launch rails of SU-30 MKI will not be in safe condition at > 15 km altitude. So, they are not testing it at that altitude. But, remember, this was only for testing.


Chacko-ji, I don't understand. I can understand that the range of a missile would be affected by the altitude, but I don't understand how the safety of the aircraft would be affected by altitude of launch. What happens below 15km to the Sukhoi that wouldn't happen above ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 May 2014 12:31

only the heaviest missiles like ASMs/ALCM are usually cold launched. all others like AAM are always hot launched.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sudhan » 05 May 2014 12:58

Am conphused onlee..

I believe hot launching is when a missile ignites and flies straight off the pylons toward the target and a cold launch is when the missile falls clear off the aircraft and then ignitions occurs?

I have noticed AMRAAMs usually falling clear of a/c like the F-15 / F-16 / F-22 /F-35.. I have noticed a claw like device pushing the missile outside the a/c's slipstream after which ignition occurs..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sum » 05 May 2014 14:16

Broadsword report on Astra

A fighter aircraft’s lethality in air-to-air combat is governed by the air-to-air missile that it carries. Since independence, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has mounted French, Russian and British missiles on its fighters. Today, an IAF Sukhoi-30MKI fighter conducted the first test launch of the indigenous Astra air-to-air missile, which the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) is developing at its missile cluster in Hyderabad.

The Astra air-to-air missile is the smallest missile on the DRDO’s menu, which has achieved notable successes in giant ballistic missiles like the Agni-series. Yet the Astra its amongst the DRDO’s biggest technological challenges.

The Astra tested over the sea off Goa today was launched by a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter that slung the missile on an under-wing pylon. Already travelling at several hundred kilometres per hour (the speed of the aircraft at the time of launch) the missile’s smokeless propellant quickly accelerates it to about 4000 kmph in an operational launch, as it screams towards the target fighter. A data link with the Sukhoi-30MKI continuously updates the missile, steering it towards a target that might have detected the missile and is manoeuvring to get away. At 15 km from the target, the Astra’s on-board seeker picks up the target and homes in on it. Reaching near the target, a radio proximity fuze detonates the Astra warhead metres from the target, shooting it down.

The launch at Goa today tested only the separation of the missile from the Sukhoi-30 fighter. As testing continues, the missile will be launched against an actual target, and perform increasingly difficult manoeuvres that ensure the target cannot get away by twisting and turning at high speeds.

The near impossibility of escaping from an air-to-air missile that has a “lock” on a fighter was memorably depicted in the Hollywood film, “Behind the Enemy Lines.”

“The air-launch was captured by side and forward looking high-speed cameras and the separation (of missile from aircraft) was exactly as per the simulation,” said a DRDO press release, after the Sunday test.

Key components of the Astra missile --- such as the seeker head --- remain imported. A seeker is being developed, but will take a decade to be usable.

The air launcher, a rail on which the missile hangs and from which it is launched, is a Russian Vympel launcher that is being built in India. It will allow the Astra to be fired from all four of India’s current generation fighters --- the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.

Astra components that the DRDO has successfully developed indigenously include the data link between aircraft and missile, its on-board computer, inertial navigation system, the radio proximity fuze, and the fibre-optic gyroscope.

The current version of the Astra will be followed by a longer-range Astra Mark II, which can be launched at enemy fighters 80 kilometres away. The Mark II, which will have a state-of-the-art ring-laser gyro, is expected to be flight tested later this year.

The Astra Project Director Dr S Venugopal, said multiple agencies, including private Indian companies, had contributed to the missile. He said, “The air launch of Astra was perfect in all respects… HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) carried out the modification in Su-30 along with IAF specialists, and many Indian industries have an important and enabling role in the production of reliable avionics, propulsion system, materials, airframe and software.”

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 05 May 2014 15:36

sudhan wrote:I have noticed AMRAAMs usually falling clear of a/c like the F-15 / F-16 / F-22 /F-35.. I have noticed a claw like device pushing the missile outside the a/c's slipstream after which ignition occurs..


jee nahi:


watch 1:05 onwards and its a hot launch from F 15!


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