Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 May 2014 16:17

pretty neat work on the 15SE..taking a legacy airframe and stealthifying it ..... I wish we could do something similar on the MKI with missile bays stuck outside the air intakes like CFTs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby merlin » 05 May 2014 18:16

Any reports on how far work, if any, has progressed on a laser proximity fuse?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 May 2014 20:58

PTO = Power Take Off. Used to drive pumps etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 05 May 2014 21:08

TCT-5 is just the canister and trailer right? 30 m is too long for a canister, it better be the dimensions of the entire vehicle including the tractor.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 06 May 2014 03:05

merlin wrote:Any reports on how far work, if any, has progressed on a laser proximity fuse?

it should be able to avoid the decoy dummies and jamming. it is easy to deflect laser.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sudhan » 06 May 2014 03:12

Dhananjay wrote:
sudhan wrote:I have noticed AMRAAMs usually falling clear of a/c like the F-15 / F-16 / F-22 /F-35.. I have noticed a claw like device pushing the missile outside the a/c's slipstream after which ignition occurs..


jee nahi:
watch 1:05 onwards and its a hot launch from F 15!


I am not able to find that video of a slo-mo cold launch of an AMRAAM, will keep looking.. But here is video of a meteor launch from an EF, cold launch with the claw like contraption to push the missile out before ignition..


Here is a pic of an AMRAAM being cold launched from an F-15

If you look closely in the above pic, you may also notice the claw like contraption on the weapon stations on the air intake housing..

My guess is that the missiles carried on certain weapon stations on the F-15 (like the ones on the fuselage) are cold launched.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby shiv » 06 May 2014 08:00

I think cold launch/hot launch/claw etc depends on the vulnerability of the air intakes to plume ingestion or airflow issues that demand that the missile move some way away from the airframe before firing. Question is whether a missile that simply falls away in level flight can be fired during a 3G or 4G turn because it will then not be "falling away".

I think the early MiG 21s needed to be actively steered away from the K-13 missile plume after firing and the engine relight system had to be armed BEFORE firing a missile in case the engine did flame out from plume ingestion

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 06 May 2014 08:37

^^ Thanks Sudhan ji!

Wow didn't know that ef2k cold launches meteor.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 06 May 2014 08:52

My understanding was that short-range missiles are hot-launched, because there isn't much time to do a free fall. And as a special case of overwing pylons of Jaguar, it has to be hot launched.

Here is a video of Sidewinder being hot launched

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srai » 06 May 2014 10:12

^^^

Hot-launch of CCM allows fighters to manoeuvre while firing. In a dog fight this is necessary. While the cold-launch are typical for BVR missiles since the launching aircraft doesn't need to be manoeuvring a whole lot before launch as the target will be many kilometres away. However right after launch, they will need to take evasive manoeuvres, such as sharp bank turns, to avoid counter BVR launches.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 06 May 2014 10:16

Fortunately the missiles have the hot/cold launch facility. Just think of the pilots who had to fire their onboard Gatling gun at lower altitudes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby merlin » 06 May 2014 10:20

SaiK wrote:
merlin wrote:Any reports on how far work, if any, has progressed on a laser proximity fuse?

it should be able to avoid the decoy dummies and jamming. it is easy to deflect laser.


For fuses it should be the other way around.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 06 May 2014 13:42

srai wrote:^^^

Hot-launch of CCM allows fighters to manoeuvre while firing. In a dog fight this is necessary. While the cold-launch are typical for BVR missiles since the launching aircraft doesn't need to be manoeuvring a whole lot before launch as the target will be many kilometres away. However right after launch, they will need to take evasive manoeuvres, such as sharp bank turns, to avoid counter BVR launches.




Just made to order video of Rafale firing MICA in hot launch. They not only show the hot launch but also very very very close up of s l o w hot launch also. I don't thing any other video can compete with this.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vina » 06 May 2014 16:34

Shiv wrote: Question is whether a missile that simply falls away in level flight can be fired during a 3G or 4G turn because

Doc Ji. First simple things first.

First Thayir Saadam. If you want a bit of spice ad hotness, add a lemon pickle on the side (ie.. missile hot exhaust trail from firing). Simple cooking lessons 1. 2. and 3. onree. After Thayir Saadam with pickle, then try Rasam Sadam, then Sambar Sadam and then Avial and finally progress to Paal Payasam.

Now everyone wants to jump straight to Paal Payasam and want the mijjile to do whizz bang and pull 30gs and engage a receding target at extreme range and do LoAL in the first shot itself. Aint gonna happen. As good dhoti clad folks in all the DRDO labs down south, I am sure they would have gone the Thayir Saadam to Paal Payasam route.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sudhan » 06 May 2014 16:55

Vina ji, the fellow rakshaks here are analyzing/understanding the why/when hot/cold launch is used.. by looking at TFTAs launching missiles in different modes.. No takleef directed at our brand new Astra pup.. 8)

Stoutly behind the short dark veshti wearing folks at DRDO.. waving my own chequered multi-colored lungi..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby negi » 06 May 2014 17:37

Most of the AC which carry missiles on external pylons will have to hot launch AAMs when not flying level ; F-22 and similar platforms are exceptions for they will have to forcefully eject a AIM 120 or similar missile outwards from their main bay even while maneuvering .

More importantly the missiles which cannot be hot launched or have to be cold launched need to be designed in a manner that when released they do not generate lift in a manner which might cause them to might clip the AC's fuselage post release even in a level flight.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 06 May 2014 18:02

The range of Astra-2 is mentioned as 100km when range of Astra-1 is stated to be 44km. Similarly the range of Astra-2 is mentioned as 150km when range of Astra-1 is stated to be 100km. So I would say that Astra-2 would have something like 50% to 100% extra range compared to Astra-1 depending on altitude and profile of target & launcher.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 06 May 2014 18:27

srin wrote:Chacko-ji, I don't understand. I can understand that the range of a missile would be affected by the altitude, but I don't understand how the safety of the aircraft would be affected by altitude of launch. What happens below 15km to the Sukhoi that wouldn't happen above ?


They studied plume impingement due to heat flux for hang fire condition. The CFD test brought out the result which I mentioned above.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 06 May 2014 19:04

chackojoseph wrote:
srin wrote:Chacko-ji, I don't understand. I can understand that the range of a missile would be affected by the altitude, but I don't understand how the safety of the aircraft would be affected by altitude of launch. What happens below 15km to the Sukhoi that wouldn't happen above ?


They studied plume impingement due to heat flux for hang fire condition. The CFD test brought out the result which I mentioned above.


Err ... translation please ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 06 May 2014 19:48

impingement : to strike or dash especially with a sharp collision
Heat flux or thermal flux is the rate of heat energy transfer through a given surface.
Hang fire refers to an unexpected delay between the triggering of a firearm and the ignition of the propellant.

You can stitch it up.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 06 May 2014 22:57

chackojoseph wrote:impingement : to strike or dash especially with a sharp collision
Heat flux or thermal flux is the rate of heat energy transfer through a given surface.
Hang fire refers to an unexpected delay between the triggering of a firearm and the ignition of the propellant.

You can stitch it up.


I did google search too and looked up Wiki and still doesn't make sense. Given that you do know a lot more about this, can you please explain this in simpler words ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vivek_ahuja » 06 May 2014 23:20

srin wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:impingement : to strike or dash especially with a sharp collision
Heat flux or thermal flux is the rate of heat energy transfer through a given surface.
Hang fire refers to an unexpected delay between the triggering of a firearm and the ignition of the propellant.

You can stitch it up.


I did google search too and looked up Wiki and still doesn't make sense. Given that you do know a lot more about this, can you please explain this in simpler words ?


So basically they did a CFD thermal study to determine up till what altitude can they count on convective heat loss from pylon and missile exhaust to the outside air flowing past the pylon, before the reduction in density and pressure renders the heat loss ineffective at cooling the pylon. In other words, beyond a certain altitude, cooling by air will not be sufficient to prevent damage to the pylon.

As altitude increases, the convective heat-transfer becomes less as and less effective as seen here:

Image

Chacko sahib, please correct if we are talking about different issues.

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 07 May 2014 01:34

vivek_ahuja wrote:
srin wrote:
I did google search too and looked up Wiki and still doesn't make sense. Given that you do know a lot more about this, can you please explain this in simpler words ?


So basically they did a CFD thermal study to determine up till what altitude can they count on convective heat loss from pylon and missile exhaust to the outside air flowing past the pylon, before the reduction in density and pressure renders the heat loss ineffective at cooling the pylon. In other words, beyond a certain altitude, cooling by air will not be sufficient to prevent damage to the pylon.

As altitude increases, the convective heat-transfer becomes less as and less effective as seen here:

Image

Chacko sahib, please correct if we are talking about different issues.

-Vivek


That makes a lot of sense - thank you very much. So assuming that R-77 doesn't pose this problem, then either it doesn't do hot launch or the temperature at launch is lower...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 07 May 2014 06:02

Correct Vivek, Just 1 modification. The missile release is ok at the > 15K altitude. Only if there is a delay in release, then it will pose problem to the launcher rail (read my first post on this, I did not mention aircraft as srin mentions in his post).

Those comparing with R-xx are being premature. This is only for testing purposes. The objective ofthis test was to check 'separation.'

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 07 May 2014 13:23

chackojoseph wrote:Correct Vivek, Just 1 modification. The missile release is ok at the > 15K altitude. Only if there is a delay in release, then it will pose problem to the launcher rail (read my first post on this, I did not mention aircraft as srin mentions in his post).

Those comparing with R-xx are being premature. This is only for testing purposes. The objective ofthis test was to check 'separation.'


Chacko-ji, that statement seems to be contrary to Vivek's explanation (that overheating effects will be less at lower altitudes) and also counter-intuitive.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 07 May 2014 15:57

I am quoting you a CFD study and its affect at > 15 kms. Its DRDO study. And how its contrary?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sattili » 07 May 2014 18:13

^^^^^
Chackoji: I think the confusion is due to small snippets of technical language that you have posted. For lay people like me it sounds like Greek and Latin. Could you post some more information about the CFD analysis results? (If that information is in public domain only)

To translate into my layman language, what you have said earlier is : " DRDO is not testing the Astra missile separation above 15K ft at this time. Reason for that is that a CFD analysis done by DRDO concluded that at that or above altitude launch rails will become unsafe in the case where the missile is ignited but it wasn't released immediately from the launch rail (like a second or two delay in getting the missile ejected from the launch rail) due to lesser cooling effect of the air flowing on to the launch rail." This restriction is only for the testing phase as they want to mitigate the risk of missile getting struck on the launch rail for few seconds even after the propellant is ignited. That means by the time Astra is ready for induction, there would be no risk of such jams as scientists would have proofed the missile separation thoroughly." Am I correct?
Last edited by sattili on 07 May 2014 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 07 May 2014 18:39

sattili wrote:To translate into my layman language, what you have said earlier is : " DRDO is not testing the Astra missile separation above 15K Km at this time. Reason for that is that a CFD analysis done by DRDO concluded that at that or above altitude launch rails will become unsafe in the case where the missile is ignited but it wasn't released immediately from the launch rail (a ... delay in getting the missile ejected from the launch rail) ....." This restriction is only for the testing phase as they want to mitigate the risk of missile getting struck on the launch rail for few seconds even after the propellant is ignited. That means by the time Astra is ready for induction, there would be no risk of such jams as scientists would have proofed the missile separation thoroughly." Am I correct?


Yes sir. I have edited some words from your sentence.

But, that's what i said in my first post, in a sentence or two.

As per the CFD studies by DRDO, the launch rails of SU-30 MKI will not be in safe condition at > 15 km altitude. So, they are not testing it at that altitude. But, remember, this was only for testing.


I have no idea why srin is confused on this?

I went technical only after he failed to understand what i said. I thought he is technically sound and hence I posted all that for him. Then he wanted in simple terms. :roll:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sattili » 07 May 2014 20:20

^^^^^^
Thank you sir, appreciate the clarification.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Will » 07 May 2014 20:56

A highly maneuverable supersonic target drone is a must for AA missile testing. The Lakshya is just not going to cut the mustard.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yugandhar » 08 May 2014 06:21

K4 successfully launched on March 24th says The Hindu
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully flight-tested an underwater-launched missile called K-4 with a range of about 3,000 km on March 24.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 986757.ece

Why are the publishing details now? :eek: :eek:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 08 May 2014 07:31

Yugandhar wrote:K4 successfully launched on March 24th says The Hindu
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully flight-tested an underwater-launched missile called K-4 with a range of about 3,000 km on March 24.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 986757.ece

Why are the publishing details now? :eek: :eek:

Yugandhar, we had discussion here on whether it was K4 or K15. See here, for example. The reports at that time spoke of a test for 2000 Kms. This confused the scenario. It is now clear from TSS's article it was indeed a K4 with >3K Kms.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 May 2014 08:08

my guess it has the pointy nose RV still hence no warheads wrapped around a core 3rd stage a blunt trident missile type nose.
once we move to smaller high yield tested warheads that can be done.

also composite 1st stage is a must across all missiles to reduce weight and improve the 1st stage climb speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sattili » 08 May 2014 10:13

Did anybody notice this gem in the Hindu article posted above?

“It was an excellent flight on March 24. The K-4 missile travelled a little more than 3,000 km,” informed sources said.

In my childhood the local kirana shop fellow will put few extra grains over the measured weight to make the customer happy. Looks like DRDO has put few extra (thousands??) km of range for the missile :D :D :D :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 08 May 2014 10:41

^sattili, AFAIK, K4 is supposed to be a 3500 Km range missile (though we would never know the range officially). I suppose it was tested to its full range. In any case, it is very exciting to read TSS's article for a confirmation.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby partha » 08 May 2014 11:46

What does 4 in k4 mean? Could it be 4000 km range?

k15 - 1500
k4 - 4000
k5 - 5000

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sudhan » 08 May 2014 11:47

DRDO causing immense takleef... by not sharing pics or videos of the K4 launch.. :(( :((

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby mody » 08 May 2014 15:27

The report says the missile was launched from a pontoon 30 mtrs underwater. I was under the impression that K15 was always launched from about 10-15 meters under the sea?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 08 May 2014 16:42

Do you really believe such sensitive details are given to public? Just giving some details for public consumption. Only thing we can trust is - a under water launch of K-4 made and minimum 3000km range and it did ok. That is all. Rest of things are all not told correctly anyway.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_23891 » 08 May 2014 17:03

Now the only test remains and that is of Nirbhay. DRDO just get Nirbhay right this time and make happy Mayhem for jingos. All the best DRDO .


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