Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 May 2014 21:23

Singha wrote:my guess it has the pointy nose RV still hence no warheads wrapped around a core 3rd stage a blunt trident missile type nose.
once we move to smaller high yield tested warheads that can be done.

also composite 1st stage is a must across all missiles to reduce weight and improve the 1st stage climb speed.



If TSS reporting is accurate it says plural for payloads. So its not the pointy nose thing.
I would be more interested in splash down fuze functioning video.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 09 May 2014 06:50

What is TSS ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Anant » 09 May 2014 07:11

T. S. Subramaniam. The name of the author who wrote the article.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 May 2014 08:56

This is a terrific development.What now remains is to build the remaining SSBNs with an extra section which can house more silos.Ideally,a sub with at least 12 silos would be required,if we are to field just 5 SSBNs for the forseeable future.The first ATVs,Arihant,and 2 follow-ons if of same size,could be reconfigured later on once the larger SSBNs are commissioned with missiles to fulfill the attack/SSGN role.The IN requires at least 6 SSGNs,3 Akulas and 3 indigenous ATVs would be a good number.

In the future,we will definitely require a sub-launched ICBM with a range of at least 5000-7500 km,so that the subs can use the vastness of the IOR to hide themselves in.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 May 2014 09:33

ramana tss says, "they are under construction". you would see single flash onlee now

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 09 May 2014 10:40

The gas generator in itself is an immense achievement being able to push a 3k range missile up the water. Very impressive.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 09 May 2014 12:09

Btw, just struck me - if it is 3K in the depressed trajectory mode, it is definitely higher in pure ballistic mode. So - the actual range of K-4 is even more understated than usual Indian practice.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 May 2014 12:29

Adding 12 silos will either need a bigger single reactor or a pair of reactors. else the submerged speed of the boats which are stated as 24knot will decline even further.
note that even modern SSK can manage about 22knot until their batteries run out.
the traditional SSN speed is around 30-35 knots , not sure about SSBN speed but might be 30 knot in the better ones(streamline) like troimphant,yasen,ohio,vanguard.

ofcourse their silent patrol speed is around 6-10 knots onlee.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 May 2014 12:31

Le troimphant specs

Displacement: 12,640 tonne (surfaced)
14,335 tonne (submerged)
Length: 138 metres (453 ft)
Beam: 12.50 metres (41.0 ft)
Draught: 10.60 metres (34.8 ft)
Propulsion: K15 pressurised water reactor (150 MW)
16 SLBM

Arihant is 6000t, 112m, with 83MW reactor. so French have a reactor nearly twice as powerful

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pragnya » 09 May 2014 15:20

mody wrote:I was under the impression that K15 was always launched from about 10-15 meters under the sea?


IIRC it was 50mt depth.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 09 May 2014 17:41

srin wrote:Btw, just struck me - if it is 3K in the depressed trajectory mode, it is definitely higher in pure ballistic mode. So - the actual range of K-4 is even more understated than usual Indian practice.

In fact, in cruise missile mode, it does some energy-bleeding manouevres too in order to avoid being shot down. So, the ballistic missile range is more likely longer. Insh'a All'ah.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 09 May 2014 18:01

How soon can we expect MIRV on the K-4? Will work go on parallel with the MIRVing of A-5? It still has some way to go during tests but in defence world most scientists on a project go to next design when the product begins testing.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 May 2014 23:11

you will only know by the splashdown counts.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 May 2014 08:00

imo we do have smaller high yield warhead designs suitable for SLBM/MIRV but the bottleneck is when do we test? without testing there is no point in deploying anything as a prime deterrent.

with compact warheads we can have a third stage around which the warheads are like petals. that will massively up the range to true ICBM figure without impacting the vital length parameter(important for road mobility and sub diameter) and not increasing the weight by much.

moving to composite 1st stage will also reduce weight substantially as the 1st stage is the heaviest...higher the terminal speed at 1st stage burnout, I guess that improves range as well and helps weight saving also to compensate the 3rd stage addition.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 May 2014 10:34

^^ The only way SDRE can get a working TN bum without the need to test is to aproach Russia to verify its design based on their tons of data on Nuke Test done and computer simulation and proof test the design in their Laser Ignition Test facility at Sarov

Russia is the only country today that is developing new generation TN charges without testing that is clearly an indicator they are good with their High Energy Physics ( check the Nuclear dhaga in Strat thread for more details )

Whether that is already happening or will happen when Modi comes to power is something we can speculate , much like after 1998 test Vajpayee approached Russia on Nuke Submarine when DAE was going no where with it , we might just approach them.

The other option is to Test it ourself that would need time and political will plus Western Sanction that will definately follow ......not to mention the China/US munna Paki will swear by their butt to test and get a equal equal status ..... would be a strange coincidence if that happens bcoz Nawaz sharif was in power in 1998 when they did the test and he is current PM.

You cant test a complex thing as TN in hurry and in a small window that Vajpayee gave scientist last time ...you need a period of one year to proof test your device go back and fix it and again do it rather then giving our scientist just 3 days like Vajpayee did last time .......we can also test Neutron Bum besides small effecient TN bum if we give enough time to scientist

( Most Western Countries and Russians have perfected TN design over 3 decades of test with multiple design , Hydro Nuclear Test for subcritical test and consqeuntly huge amount of data they have with TN and its physics and Engineering it is bery bery complex as it gets smaller effecient and better )

The last option is not to test at all and just be happy with proven Fission Device and let our accuracy of missile do the talking.

All options are fine just depends on where we want to take the course on Bum Issue which translates to our Posture on Nuclear Deterrence and Political Will

Given that last thing is a precious commodity and the recent accuracy of our IRBM in single digit , I tend to believe that DRDO is hoping for best but prepared for worst i.e last option

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 May 2014 11:33

No small tn means second class status in icbm field due to less inventory x no mirv.

Meantime cheen is free to use proven designs, plus test via north korea and continue to build on its current superiority.

Thats not acceptable if we want to deter cheen properly and then deal with khan saheb.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 May 2014 18:14

Singha wrote:No small tn means second class status in icbm field due to less inventory x no mirv.

Meantime cheen is free to use proven designs, plus test via north korea and continue to build on its current superiority.

Thats not acceptable if we want to deter cheen properly and then deal with khan saheb.


Most targets of Military Importance including Deeply Burried one can be take out by a 15 kt Fission Bum that DAE has tested during Shakti test when one looks at Missile Accuracy that DRDO speaks about for Long Range BM.

The Megaton Bum are only of Psychological value during crisis and the desire to Wipe out Civilisation a Cold War Era thinking ..so even though China does have Megaton weapon and so do some P-5 country but we can still inflict unacceptable damage with what we have tested with know conservative yeald figures.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 10 May 2014 18:17

Informative Talk on Boost Glide Vehical

“Fast and Furious: Analyzing Hypersonic Boost-glide Weapon Test Flights”

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ucs-webinars/S ... -27-14.mp4

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby brar_w » 10 May 2014 18:52

Austin wrote:Informative Talk on Boost Glide Vehical

“Fast and Furious: Analyzing Hypersonic Boost-glide Weapon Test Flights”

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ucs-webinars/S ... -27-14.mp4


http://www.smdc.army.mil/TechCenter/201 ... 81312.pptx

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_19648 » 12 May 2014 21:20

http://www.omantribune.com/index.php?page=news&id=166541&heading=India

Nirbhay missile has sub-metre accuracy, says DRDO ex-chief
Jeta Pillai

MUSCAT Nirbhay, India’s long range sub-sonic cruise missile, which is undergoing trials, will have sub-metre accuracy, according to Dr VK Saraswat, former director-general of Defence Research and Development Organisation, the developers of the missile.

This will give it the ability to hit a small target among multiple objects at a range of up to 1,000km. The BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, with a range of 300km, has an accuracy of a few metres.


Saraswat, who is currently holder of Department of Atomic Energy’s Homi Bhabha Chair, was presented this year’s ‘Dr ASG Jaykar Award’ at Indian School Wadi Kabir as part of the Science India Fiesta 2014 that concluded on Saturday.

BrahMos, he said, will not be affected even if satellite navigation is jammed because it has a very good homing radar seeker which takes care of all mid-course errors.

About Astra, the active radar homing beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile reportedly undergoing trials using Sukhoi 30MKI fighters, he said: It is state-of-the-art, in terms of homing capability, probability of intercept and success rate of the mission. The best aircraft, whatever manoeuvrs it can make, Astra will outwit it.”

Dhanush, a ship launched version of Prithvi missile with a range of 359km, has an accuracy of less than 10m and is mainly for static targets, including those on land, said Saraswat. The missile was test-fired successfully in November 2013.

On the suggestion that India’s Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system would disturb military balance in the region, Saraswat said: “It is like any other weapon. When the number of fighter squadrons or tanks, is increased, it will also result in military imbalance.”

But, since India has a policy of no first use of N-weapons, we should have the capability to defend against a rogue N-attack. It must have the time to counter-attack and that is possible only with BMD, which can destroy an incoming missile, he added.

On the possibility of new radars detecting stealth aircraft, he said: “Already there are radars that can detect very low cross-section systems. Aircraft exhaust has infrared (IR) radiation that can be detected, therefore work is on to suppress IR radiation from aircraft. Similarly, ground radars are also becoming more potent with ‘low probability of intercept’ radars and hi-fidelity radars. Then there are passive radars or no transmission radars which only receive signatures from transmissions that are in the environment and then try to find out where they are coming from. With more signal processing techniques, radars will overcome the stealth.”

Saraswat said the level of autonomy in electronic warfare systems on fighter aircraft continues to increase and are able to decide ‘what the threat is, how to overcome it’ and how to make yourself safer against it. “All future radars and radar warning receivers will have that capability and a lot of it is happening today. In many cases missile firing is also done automatically, but

India, he said, was waiting for its first thorium-based reactor to become operational which would be a breakthrough in the effort to meet its energy needs as Kerala had very large deposits of thorium.

Saraswat said the Kaveri engine, which was originally developed for the Light Combat Aircraft ‘Tejas’, had passed all tests and would now be used for large Unmanned Aerial Vehicles that are under development.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Austin » 12 May 2014 21:26

I am not sure why he says Brahmos has accuracy of few meters when in past Dr Pillai and other DRDO scientist mentioned it has pin point accuracy and we have videos showing Brahmos hitting radar reflector on a wall bang on in featureless desert condition

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srai » 13 May 2014 04:02

^^^

That radar reflector looks to be few meters wide.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 May 2014 04:30

Accuracy is the maximum radius within which the missile is guaranteed to hit. A missile can hit the bull's eye for a few tests even when its accuracy is of a few meters. Remember, Prithvi's first launch? Prithvi Point is 27 meters from the designated target. But the accuracy of Prithvi was reported as 150 meters.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 13 May 2014 05:07

Nirbhaya sub meter accuracy is a great news. A cruse missile with a 1000km range will be very very useful against Panda also and will greatly increase our capabilities on the seas. Need to have a huge production line for this. A 1000 Missiles ready to decapitate Paki leadership aimed at their houses all the time is need of the hour.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 13 May 2014 08:03

Mao is reported to have told Brezhnev,that even if Russia killed 400 million Chinese in N-attacks,they would have another 300 million to rebuild the country.More than any other nation,China has built during the Cold War,vast underground shelters for the population,plus putting its most valuable N-assets,etc., underground.It has factored in that a few hundred million of its people will be killed and has taken adequate measures for the survival of the political and military elite.

Unfortunately,thanks to the "peaceniks" in India,steeped in bogus "Gandhian" philosophy,forgetting that Gandhi approved of Indian soldiers fighting in both WW1 and WW2,cheered on by Western entities laughing at our naievety , India has been a most reluctant N-weapons state,almost totally unprepared for nuclear war which is a clear and present danger from Islamist madmen in Pak and its "all-weather friend" China. If we have similar N-war preparedness for the population,etc.,there has been hardly a hint about it.
Therefore it is incumbent upon the new dispensation which is to take charge in Delhi to give serious attention to the possibility,perhaps even probability, that we will face a nuclear attack in the future and prepare for the same.The best defence is to show the enemy that we have an overwhelming response,an assured level of destruction of any state that threatens India or has malevolent designs against it.The day of the long range ICBM has to come, with a range that can strike at any N-power on the globe.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nash » 14 May 2014 07:01


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 14 May 2014 07:57

nash wrote:Astra launch video from Tarmak:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=57 ... =2&theater


Beautiful. Mugambo khush hua :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sudhan » 14 May 2014 11:08

^Nice, finally the video :)

Now where is that K-4 test video, hain? :evil:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 14 May 2014 22:33

Has anybody noticed that the only indigenous tactical guided missile under production is Akash?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby pankajs » 15 May 2014 17:02

Times of India ‏@timesofindia 3h

Stage set for test of nuclear-capable cruise missile Nirbhay http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 129574.cms
NEW DELHI: India is gearing up to test its first long-range cruise missile 'Nirbhay' (the fearless), which can carry nuclear warheads with a strike range of over 1,000 km, within a month or so.

A stealth missile long in the making, Nirbhay is meant to fulfill the armed forces' demand for nuclear-tipped land-attack cruise missiles (LACMs) versatile enough to be fired from land, air and sea.

Flaunted as India's answer to the famed American Tomahawk missiles as well as an effective counter to Pakistan's Babur LACM, Nirbhay was experimentally fired for the first time in March last year.

But the test went awry. "We had to abort the flight after a snag in one of the components made the missile deviate from its flight trajectory at a waypoint. The problem has now been resolved. The maiden test-firing did prove most of the required critical technologies," said a DRDO scientist.

"Preparations for the fresh test (from the Chandipur launch complex off Odisha coast) are more or less complete. Depending on the slot available, we will test Nirbhay around early-June,'' he added.

India already has the 290-km supersonic BrahMos cruise missile as well as the Agni series of nuclear-capable missiles with strike ranges varying from 700 km to over 5,000 km.

But while BrahMos is a short-range conventional weapon, not a nuclear one, the Agni missiles are ballistic ones that follow a parabolic trajectory. Cruise missiles like Nirbhay are designed to fly at low altitudes, virtually hugging the terrain, to evade enemy radars and missile defence systems. Cruise missiles are also much cheaper and easier to operate than ballistic missiles.

Nirbhay, after an initial blast off with a solid-propellant booster rocket engine to gain speed and altitude, deploys its smallish wings and tail fins in the second stage to fly like an aircraft thereafter.

The sub-sonic missile, which flies at a speed of 0.6-0.7 Mach, is said to be highly maneuverable with "loitering capabilities" to first identify and then hit the intended target. "In the test last year, Nirbhay's launch was perfect. The wings were deployed properly after the 'aircraft engine' took over following the separation of the booster motor from the main missile... the flight had stabilized," said another scientist.

"But we had to resort to the self-destruct mode after there was inertial navigation control failure and the missile began to drift towards the coast. Yes, the missile's turbo-fan is imported as of now but the indigenous engine is also getting ready," the scientist said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 15 May 2014 17:20

Can't the Nirbhay be modified into a recoverable drone, taking off from some valley in Himalayas and bombing the chinese in a surprise attack with some laser guided glide bomb and the Nirbhay returning to some advance landing zone recovered by deploying a parachute (easy to recover emptied of all fuel and warhead, carrying only the expensive stuff).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby JTull » 15 May 2014 17:26

vic wrote:Has anybody noticed that the only indigenous tactical guided missile under production is Akash?


If you mean AA missiles, then yes. Otherwise, you forgot the full suite of BMD missiles under works.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sanjay » 15 May 2014 18:14


Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Karan M » 15 May 2014 18:22

The DRDO directly contradicts his statements in the latter part of the article.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sanjay » 15 May 2014 18:26

Yup. Am asking this to see if we are interpreting this the same way - what specifically is the contradiction ? Also what of the altitude issue ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 15 May 2014 18:38

JTull wrote:
vic wrote:Has anybody noticed that the only indigenous tactical guided missile under production is Akash?


If you mean AA missiles, then yes. Otherwise, you forgot the full suite of BMD missiles under works.


And Nag, Bramhos seeker is also Indian

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby sarabpal.s » 15 May 2014 19:17

I feel TOI IS short form of toilet because they just didn't get the thing properly related defence and while trying to copy paste articles they botched up many thing this is article is on same line

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 15 May 2014 19:45

For UAV, we do have proper UAV's like Rustom in development that can do the role of UAV's. Nirbhay will be a one time on target missile. One unique feature of this missile is it can be behave like an UAV by loitering over the target area and choosing the time and target before striking. Said to be a feature that's available in Delilah.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby uddu » 15 May 2014 19:49

Is there any latest information on the progress of Akash MK-II and the MK-II variant of Pinaka?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sid » 15 May 2014 22:00

Does IR seeker in PDV have different engineering challanges due to its operating enviroment (high altitude, sub zero temp, vacuum etc)?

And is IR seeker alone enough for final engagement?

Watch from 50 sec onwords on how SM3 ASAT version behaves during last stage in LEO (similar to engagement altitues for PDV)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBmZL145Lrw[/youtube]


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