India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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rohitvats
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 27 Oct 2013 13:32

jamwal wrote:Since snide remarks are not allowed, let me make some 'statements'.

I can sure live with direct statement(s) than snide remarks and innuendos. Gives clarity on what people think, and more importantly why they do so. Also, gives an opportunity for others to make counter-point(s).


As far as current army chief is concerned, General BS's performance has been anything but good.

That is a very subjective assessment which I intend to argue against.

His appointment was mired in controversy where babooze and some senior officers in Army conspired to remove General VK Singh by any means possible.

While the predecessors of General VKS may well have conspired to reduce his tenure as COAS and ensure General BS becomes COAS, there is no word till date to even suggest that General BS influenced such a behavior by either of the two predecessors of General VKS. If JJ Singh acted on his 'love' for a junior officer - that is hardly an opportunity to accuse General BS for wrong doing. Leave alone any factual data point, there is hardly any circumstantial evidence towards this line of argument.

His performance in controlling deteriorating situation on China as well as Paki border is open for every one to see. Pakis and Cheenis have smacked Indian army repeatedly and now Manmohan Singh is going to sign a border agreement written by Chinese.

The deteriorating condition on the LOC and LAC is a function of over Indian approach to foreign policy and security arrangement - it is not a reflection of the performance of the army. It has been happening for all these years and has only now reached a certain crescendo - a reflection various events happening together like weak GOI, ineffective political leadership, situation in Af-Pak and all that.

Lapses by forward units and field commanders, if any, cannot be simply placed at the door of the Army Chief - statements like moral responsibility are all fine and dandy but cannot be removed from reality of how things work on ground. By that yardstick, General Malik should have been sacked because PA managed to intrude so deep inside Indian territory

As to conduct of Prime Minister and GOI - well, you know it as well as myself that Services have no say in such matters. So, that is even a non-argument as far as analyzing conduct of current COAS is concerned.


The leaks and the witch hunt against against General VKS and TSD has been against Indian interests. If General BS was in control or acting in good faith, these incidents which actually harmed image and capabilities of Army could have been avoided.

The leak against VKS and TSD happened 6-months after the internal inquiry by the Army and submission of report to NSA - everyone and his aunt knows that leak happened from PMO and VKS even went to the extent of giving hints about certain babu in PMO. So, as far as leak is concerned, you cannot lay the blame at the feet of the Army or COAS.

Coming to the issue of TSD - based on the analysis of information in media I personally think the act of winding up TSD was detrimental to Indian security. But at the same time, I don't think it was an open and shut case.


Lets assume for a moment that his hands are tied by babooze in cvilian gobarment and he can't do anything. In that case, what's the point in him occupying the chair ? General VKS spoke and acted against the corruption and rot in army during his own tenure. What has General BS done till now ?

By your angle of argument - every former COAS apart from VKS should be then considered inept or colluding with politicians because they never spoke out in the same manner as VKS. I never heard any statement from General Padmanabhan or General Malik or other Army Chiefs. So are they also guilty? Further, how do we know what General BS has done or not done - same goes for other former Army chief's. Just because we did not hear anything from them on the lines of what General VKS said does not make them less competent that VKS. Or, that they should have vacated he chair.

I realise the need to avoid snide remarks and unsubstantiated allegations against men in uniform, but General BS has been one of the most controversial if not worst Chiefs that Indian army had in recent memory. Now it's entirely possible that all of this is some kind of deep Chanakyan plan meant to fool our enemies and I'm an idiot for writing this. But since there is no such proof and Indian soldiers are dying while Cheeni, Pakis are encroaching. In the meanwhile, the higher brass is happy being MMS in uniform.

His appointment as COAS may well have been controversial but I'm yet to see a single statement by anyone which alleges his hand in the controversy. Can you provide any such data-point from anywhere?

While your angst against deteriorating border situation is understood, insinuating that the same is because of inept handling of the situation by General BS is plain incorrect. As is the assertion that General BS has put in place policies to further the agenda of Prime Minister MMS.

So, using words like 'worst Chief' are uncalled for - it may well be your personal opinion but than it what it stays as - Personal Opinion and not a statement of fact.


Please don't say that the Chief is against all criticism. There have been ample examples where incompetent political appointees have screwed up big time.

No one said Services or Service Chiefs are beyond criticism - but that criticism be based on facts or even strong circumstantial evidence. It will allow others to see where your POV is coming from and offer counter-argument(s).

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshhan » 27 Oct 2013 14:41

rohitvats wrote:
By your angle of argument - every former COAS apart from VKS should be then considered inept or colluding with politicians because they never spoke out in the same manner as VKS. I never heard any statement from General Padmanabhan or General Malik or other Army Chiefs. So are they also guilty? Further, how do we know what General BS has done or not done - same goes for other former Army chief's. Just because we did not hear anything from them on the lines of what General VKS said does not make them less competent that VKS. Or, that they should have vacated he chair.



RohitVats ji, This is precisely the thing that is happening. General Bikram Singh might not be guilty on any of the points. But since he was preceded by Gen V.K.Singh who is probably the most unconventional Chief that Indian Army ever had, Gen Bikram Singh and other future Chiefs will continue to be benchmarked against him. This is not completely wrong although many(including you) have their reservations against this sort of benchmarking. Our Country is going through an abnormal crisis. This is one of the darkest hours in India's existence. Without bringing Gen Bikram Singh in discussion, it is my own conviction that someone who is extremely conventional in his thinking(wrt Political correctness and following orders) is not cut out for facing the clear and present dangers that India is facing. He will not be able to deliver much.

The nature and scope of threats faced by India has vastly changed. Today only that Army Chief will succeed who has a comprehensive understanding of concepts like Special Operations, Covert warfare, asymmetric warfare etc in addition to other things.

Incidentally Gen Bikram Singh should not be having any problems comprehending the above as he himself was a commando and also an instructor at Commando school. Now whether he actually applies the above concepts is another matter altogether. This will also decide his legacy.

Gen Bikram Singh Wiki

A graduate of the 40th course at the National Defence Academy,[6] Singh was commissioned into the Sikh Light Infantry on 31 March 1972. He was adjudged the 'Best Young Officer' at the Young Officer's course at the Infantry School. He was awarded both the Commando Dagger for being the best commando and the 'Best in Tactics' trophy. He later was an instructor at the Commando Wing of the Infantry School


The capabilty is there. Can't say the same about the intent.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Pratyush » 27 Oct 2013 14:51

The intent can be seen from his actions. At the same time, the IA is a professional army under the command of a civilian leadership.

It will follow the instructions received from the national command authority. If the NCA authorises a retaliation, rest assured it will follow, and the RATS will rue the day.

Until then, we will have to absorb such hits. In this situation, if any COAS decides to act on his own. Without the approval of the civilian leaders, he will be sacked.

Please understand this.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 27 Oct 2013 20:16

darshhan wrote: RohitVats ji, This is precisely the thing that is happening. General Bikram Singh might not be guilty on any of the points. But since he was preceded by Gen V.K.Singh who is probably the most unconventional Chief that Indian Army ever had, Gen Bikram Singh and other future Chiefs will continue to be benchmarked against him. This is not completely wrong although many(including you) have their reservations against this sort of benchmarking. Our Country is going through an abnormal crisis. This is one of the darkest hours in India's existence. Without bringing Gen Bikram Singh in discussion, it is my own conviction that someone who is extremely conventional in his thinking(wrt Political correctness and following orders) is not cut out for facing the clear and present dangers that India is facing. He will not be able to deliver much.


darshhan - It is my opinion that you're confusing issues here.

Taking on the GOI as a matter of conviction is not same as 'not following orders'. There was no order for him NOT to follow the GOI - it was more a matter of propriety than anything else. Similarly, the act of General VKS of giving statement to media about bribe being offered to him does not indicate in any manner some 'unconventional' thinking as described you.

We've no evidence either ways about 'unconventional' thinking displayed by VKS in terms of military matters as Chief of Army Staff.

The nature and scope of threats faced by India has vastly changed. Today only that Army Chief will succeed who has a comprehensive understanding of concepts like Special Operations, Covert warfare, asymmetric warfare etc in addition to other things.


I really think you need to think a bit more before postulating your POV - How do you know General BS does not know about these aspects while General VKS did? Or, for that matter of fact any of the other Army Chiefs?

Your juxtaposing two unrelated aspects here and somehow trying to draw a parallel. As I said earlier, General VKS taking on GOI is not same as being unconventional General. Good or bad, the Services need to follow the orders given the political leadership. If tomorrow GOI ask IA to withdraw from Siachen, Army will have to do that - for that is the order of the executive elected by the people of India. The best that a Service Chief can do is resign in protest - as General Thimmayya did to protest against interference of Menon in affairs of Army.

But whoever is sitting in that chair - follow orders he must.

Yes, we want Service Chiefs to have a spine and be able to take on the GOI and not crawl when asked to bend. But no system is perfect and there is bad with the good. There have been Service Chiefs which Services could have done without in the first place. But that is how the dice rolls.

Having said that - nothing has come to fore which can castigate General BS in negative manner. When he became COAS, the general belief was that he was MMS's general bought in to do the prime minister's bidding on Kashmir and Siachen. There is nothing to show or even hint that this is the case - at least so far. In fact the reply which General BS gave to the Pakistani journalist on Siachen and AFSPA issue would warm the cockles of any jingoes heart.

The capabilty is there. Can't say the same about the intent.


There is no indication either way to even hint at something like above.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Pratyush » 30 Oct 2013 16:26

Unusual increase in ceasefire violations has 'tacit support' of Pak army: Antony

The government is beginning to take note of the situation. We may hope that the IA would now be given a free hand in dealing with the situation as they see fit.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishnan » 30 Oct 2013 16:38

what does he mean support of pak army ??? isnt it the pak army which is doing violation???

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 30 Oct 2013 19:54

Maybe the latest spin is that it is "rogue elements" of the Pakistan Army doing ceasefire violations & beheadings. This way, Pakistan Army can also be given a clean chit.

New MMS mantra: Not talking to Good Pakistan Army will strengthen the hands of the Bad Pakistan Army

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Oct 2013 20:07

rogue elements has been an unkil refrain for some time
looks like the koolaid got shared

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23455 » 30 Oct 2013 20:11

Lalmohan wrote:rogue elements has been an unkil refrain for some time
looks like the koolaid got shared


But unkil also kills side-by-side. That KoolAid we neither have the capacity (something that gets forgotten when singularly blasting the political establishment) nor the political will to drink.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Oct 2013 20:24

unkil in his own way is equally twisted up about paquis - they are not really any better off
they get to swat the flies more often than we do though

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vaibhav.n » 31 Oct 2013 17:18

The fire continues to burn..... :-?

Shalabata Episode I


Tactical Shift

Highlights:

The Army recovered some bullet-proof vests from the infiltrators. “Wearing them the infiltrators would survive direct bullet hits on the frontal portion of their bodies,” said an Army officer.

Since its first contact with the infiltrators, the Army had mobilised a brigade in and around Shalbhat with the intention of plugging all escape routes. The one leading to PoK, however, could not be blocked. A soldier, who had returned from the operation, spoke to THE WEEK on condition of anonymity and described the situation as tense and confusing. “The infiltrators fired every time the Army tried to close in on them,” he said. Another soldier said there was a clash close to the loader post of the Army. “It is an important post where the Army stocks its stuff,” he said.

There are pressure points on the LoC that both Indian and Pakistani armies use to their advantage. The Keran sector is where the Pakistanis command some heights. The area has emerged as the most preferred route of infiltrators because of the effective counter-infiltration tactics used elsewhere by the Army. The fence on the LoC also acts as a deterrent. The river Kishanganga (called Neelum in Pakistan) is a natural divider between India and Pakistan at many places on the LoC. There is little chance of infiltrators sneaking into the India without getting caught or killed after crossing the river. But in Keran, the Kishanganga winds into PoK and the LoC runs through thick forests at 10,000 feet above sea level.

In Shalbhat, militants often infiltrate with the help of guides, said a villager. “Most of these guides are double agents. They intimate the Army about the infiltration in advance. But they will not lead all militants into Army traps. This way they keep the trust of both sides and earn rewards,” he said.

Remember, if it were an intrusion, the adversary, the terrorists, would have occupied a dominating ground which is defensible,” said General Singh. “In this case, they were in a nulla (rivulet)... Which adversary is going to dominate an area by sitting in a nulla?”

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jamwal » 18 Nov 2013 19:45

From J&K thread, posted by Pranay:

Rona Dhona on Paki side of Kashmir

The housewives taking on militants in Kashmir


Image

Tucked away in the northern-most recesses of the insurgency-hit region of Kashmir, a community is fighting a little-known battle to keep Islamist militants at bay. And the charge is led by none other than a band of housewives.

During the last three years, these women have conducted a sustained and vociferous street campaign to shun militants from their native district of Neelum, a river valley located on the northern fringes of Pakistani-administered Kashmir.

This summer has been no less dramatic.

In mid-August, the police stopped a bus-load of these housewives at the main road of Athmuqam town, the headquarters of Neelum district. They led it to the police station and confiscated its registration papers, ordering the driver not to transport his passengers.

The angry women descended from the bus, brushed aside some policemen attempting to stop them, and started to walk on foot to their destination - the nearby army camp, some 6km (4 miles) away along the Line of Control (LoC), a de facto boundary that divides the Kashmir region between India and Pakistan.
Continue reading the main story


They were carrying hand-written placards demanding an end to militant activity in the area which they say provokes Indian firing on their towns and villages.

A crowd of local men had started to gather, and fearing public unrest, the policemen held back, letting the women pass.

I meet one of their leaders, 60-year-old Sarwar Jan, at her house in a village near Athmuqam.

The courtyard where we sit extends into a small patch of farmland where a maize crop has just been harvested. There's an empty cattle shed in one corner.

In front, high on top of the green mountains across the river, I can see a tiny grey spot which she says is an Indian border post.

This entire area seems to be lying open before the Indian guns up there.

"In recent weeks the [Pakistani] army had been telling people to build bunkers, which amounts to telling us that bad times are about to return," she says, explaining the reasons behind the August protest.

"There was also increased visibility of militants in our area. We were afraid that an attempt by them to infiltrate the LoC would invite Indian fire into our area. We had to do something."


Two incidents that followed the women's protest illustrate the deeper undercurrents of the movement they are leading.

Firstly, on the night following the protest, a group of militants tried to cross the LoC and sparked an armed clash with Indian border guards some distance east of Athmuqam, with locals saying they could hear the firing and the shelling.

The next morning, as well as the women marching to the army camp again, the town's traders also pulled down their shutters and held a protest rally in the centre of the town, which was joined by the lawyers from the district bar council.

"The entire district seemed to be up in arms, which made the government officials nervous," says Khwaja Fayyaz Hussain, a local journalist.

Days later, an attempt by militants to cross the LoC was frustrated by none other than the residents of a small village, Ban Chhattar.

"Some three or four armed men tried to cross the river in a rubber boat at night, but were spotted by a villager who raised the alarm," says Malik Naseer, a resident of Ban Chhattar.

The villagers stoned the boatmen and forced them to turn back. Someone also called the police who arrived half an hour later. The suspects had disappeared by then.


The majority of its roughly 300,000 inhabitants live in villages and towns along the Neelum River which flows through the length of the valley.

Most of the main population centres are exposed to Indian fire, and they bore the brunt of the insurgency in the 1990s.

Through the decade, houses and government buildings were flattened by Indian shelling, and underground bunkers multiplied. More than 2,000 civilians lost their lives, while nearly 5,000 were injured or maimed.

"For several years we didn't have a single moment when we could sit out in the open without the fear of a mortar shell landing on our heads," says Khwaja Fayyaz Hussain.

"In 1998, the shelling was so intense it forced us to stay permanently in bunkers. I don't recall when the winter ended and the summer began."

Mohammad Khursheed, a pharmacist who runs a medical store in Athmuqam, says the war gave the people arthritis, a disease which he says is normally rare in mountainous regions.

"We have been treating hundreds of arthritis patients in recent years. They got it because they were forced to spend long hours - sometimes up to 18 hours at a stretch - sitting on damp ground inside the bunkers."

Image

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 15 Dec 2013 23:01

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Chinese ... 431921.cms

NEW DELHI: The Chumar area along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in eastern Ladakh continues to be a major flashpoint between India and China, with People's Liberation Army troops once again taking three Indian porters and their mules into custody for a week earlier this month.

Sources say the porters were released by the PLA troops on December 11 only after the Indian Army intervened through the hotline and a flag meeting between local commanders to demand their return. "The issue was resolved amicably under the existing bilateral border mechanism between the two armies," said an officer. ......

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 25 Dec 2013 17:18

http://idsa.in/system/files/IB_Chineseintrusion.pdf

Chinese intrusions across the LAC
Namrata Goswami

December 17, 2013

....

Bolstering such aggression at the border is China’s steady expansion of military capabilities centered in the plateau of the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR). China has been shooting for border dominance via military means and has built the required military infrastructure throughout the TAR. The operational objectives are to initiate and sustain intense ‘shock and awe’ type blitzkrieg short campaigns against India. The military machine to achieve these objectives consists of land and air forces backed by stockpiled logistics and supplies. China has built road and rail networks in Tibet, which provide ground mobility to 400,000 PLA soldiers in the two military regions opposite India. It has deployed upgraded ballistic missiles, added several new dual use airfields in Tibet and expanded its military assets transport capability. Advanced Chinese fighter aircraft stationed in TAR are capable of operating at high altitudes.

What is however interesting to note is that in the overall scheme of China’s airpower there are no major air bases within short strike range of India. Rather, in the PLA’s battle strategy, the Indian air force assets across the LAC will be ideal targets for the PLA ballistic missiles stockpiled in underground tunnels built into the mountainside in Xinjiang and Tibet. These missiles are located in proximity to the LAC with ready access from the Western Tibet highway.

...


I had higher expectations from IDSA research. While the paper describes Chinese strategy and strengths, it does not talk at all about our own responses to them, and our own strengths. The reader is left with an impression of total PLA supremacy on the LAC :roll:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jamwal » 12 Jan 2014 16:35

Maj Gen Gagandeep Bakshi
When i was commanding my battalion in Kargil in 1990-91( Dalunang- Kaksar) the Pakis had killed one of my boys and been generally misbehaving badly . In retaliation we hit back with a Regt of Arty , one light Bty, 5 mortar platoons, 4 x106 Rcls and one 75/24 in direct shooting role. We mainly hit their battalion HQ and logistaical base. Paki 29 Baluch had lost nearly 40 killed . They raised the white flag after just one hour of this murderous barrage.We were never fired on after that. If that could be done in 1990- why cant it be done today?

https://www.facebook.com/majgengagandee ... 3353814193

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby atreya » 12 Jan 2014 18:16

@^^ In the replies to this post

Surendra Tanwar
Those were the days. In Kirni intrusion an inf bn , a fd regt and a lt regt plastered the Pakis who suffered over 100 killed incl most of their bn hq. They only understand this language.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 12 Jan 2014 22:16

Is this encounter the same which one ia general mentioned in one YouTube lecture? The one about them being a "badmash paltan"?

jamwal wrote:Maj Gen Gagandeep Bakshi
When i was commanding my battalion in Kargil in 1990-91( Dalunang- Kaksar) the Pakis had killed one of my boys and been generally misbehaving badly . In retaliation we hit back with a Regt of Arty , one light Bty, 5 mortar platoons, 4 x106 Rcls and one 75/24 in direct shooting role. We mainly hit their battalion HQ and logistaical base. Paki 29 Baluch had lost nearly 40 killed . They raised the white flag after just one hour of this murderous barrage.We were never fired on after that. If that could be done in 1990- why cant it be done today?

https://www.facebook.com/majgengagandee ... 3353814193

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 11 Feb 2014 22:36

While guns are blazing at LoC, the high security Punjab border is witnessing a silent onslaught of heroin and fake currency from Pakistan. And this is a war Pakistan seems to be silently winning

http://www.tehelka.com/drug-war-on-the- ... nglepage=1

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 14 Jun 2014 21:34

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... -briefing/

...

The briefing by senior Army officers in South Block came even as an Army jawan died in an IED explosion near the Line of Control in the Mendhar region. This led to heavy exchange of fire in the Bhimber Gali brigade area.

The IED was suspected to have been planted by a Pakistan Border Action Team (BAT). At least six others, including an officer, were injured in the blast and during attempts to clear the area.

In South Block, Modi was given a detailed presentation on the security environment. Those present in the war room included Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, Minister of State Rao Inderjit Singh and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval.

Since April this year, there have been 20 incidents of ceasefire violation by Pakistan along the LoC and international border in Jammu & Kashmir. Last year, there were 149 such incidents, resulting in the death of a dozen jawans and injuries to 41 others.

...

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 14 Jun 2014 23:26

Lot of people on SM are commenting upon the death of an young johnny on LOC and Indian correspondence with Pakistan on maintaining the sanctity of LOC. People are questioning the comments made by NM during election campaign on conduct of Congress in similar situation and his actions now in face of same events.

IMO, what is happening is that India seems to be laying a ground work for tough regime on LOC as well as any strong counter-action in case of misadventure by Pakistan. And while NM may be offering the olive branch to NS, he is unlikely to be bought over by the argument that any strong retaliation/pro-active measures by India on LOC will undermine 'Civilian' government. NM is quite capable in talking back in same language as used by Pakis - we're all for peace but need to act strong in case of violations by PA.

All this correspondence and dialogues with Pakistan will be used to convey that we tried all the possible 'peace' options but are now left with no other option but to retaliate.

As far as I'm concerned, the time for PA to get the big 'danda' on LOC and elsewhere has come. They're in for a rude shock.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Jun 2014 23:46

@ rohitvats ^^^: I agree. In fact this whole overture to NS seems to be to preclude anyone claiming NaMo was trigger happy and spoiling for a fight.

There will be a huge provocation soon. And, I think you're right, there will be a precision strike that has already been readied.

Longer term, we have to build up covert capability inside Bakistan through the Afghans aimed at the PA and its soft targets.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ashish raval » 15 Jun 2014 02:27

It is about time we introduce sensor based system like Israel.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 15 Jun 2014 17:49

ashish raval wrote:It is about time we introduce sensor based system like Israel.


Technology has only partial answers for the ceasefire violation issue. At best, these sensors can detect infiltration and thus aid the forces in stopping it. Ceasefire violations may occur even without crossing the LOC, by artillery for example. That is why we need to retaliate in same coin.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishnan » 16 Jun 2014 15:42

they already have those

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 29 Jun 2014 21:35

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 34440.aspx

Even as China prepared to lay out the red carpet for vice-president Hamid Ansari in Beijing, its troops intruded into the Indian side of the Pangong lake in eastern Ladakh this week, aggressively underlining their claim over the disputed water body.

South Block sources said that Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) boats came 5.5 kilometres into the Indian portion of the saltwater lake, the larger part of which lies under Chinese control in the Autonomous Region of Tibet. The incursion, which happened on June 24 and lasted over two hours, involved four high-speed Chinese interceptor boats that were pushed back by Indian troops on US-built interceptor vessels.

Ansari, whose delegation includes commerce minister Nirmala Sitharaman, is in the Chinese capital to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the Panchsheel Agreement over the weekend. He will meet Chinese premier Li Keqiang and president Xi Jinping.

The Chinese political leadership has been making all the right noises since Narendra Modi became PM.

However, analysts expect the relationship to be driven more by commerce than any real warmth.

“While Chinese leadership wants PM Narendra Modi to visit Beijing after president Xi Jinping’s visit to India this year, time has come for both sides to clarify the LAC in the western sector as border violations are mounting and this could again lead to a flare-up like the Depsang incident in April 2013,” said a senior official, referring to a tense standoff in Jammu and Kashmir last year.

Read: Vice-President Anasari's begins China visit Thursday to mark Panchsheel

The northern bank of Pangong Tso has especially bitter memories for India because it was a theatre of conflict in the 1962 war, and has become a source of concern of late due to repeated Chinese forays across the Line of Actual Control. The picturesque lake, 134 km long and at a height of 4,350 metres above sea level, has seen 12 face-offs between Indian and Chinese troops this year alone. China has also been upgrading infrastructure on its side of the border, worrying the Indians.

“In 2013, there were no less than 18 face-offs between Indian and Chinese troops in Pangong Tso due to serious difference in perception on the LAC and also due to massive Chinese infrastructure build-up close to the line,” said a senior government official.

On June 24, the four Chinese high-speed interceptor boats were spotted moving from Srijap I posts around 8.25 am to Srijap VIII, VI and V detachments on northern banks of the lake. Twenty minutes later, Indian troops on the four American- made boats moved from Thukang base and intercepted Chinese vessels. The two sides first were locked in a face-off and then conducted a so-called banner drill to remind the other side of the Line.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_27581 » 16 Jul 2014 15:40

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 478589.cms

Seems like some people only want to learn their lessons the hard way

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 13 Aug 2014 17:50

Data point

http://news.oneindia.in/india/chinese-a ... 01780.html

New Delhi, Aug 13: The Chinese Army has transgressed the Sino-Indian border 334 times this year and a total of 1,278 times between 2010-13, Rajya Sabha was informed on Wednesday. Minister of State for Home Kiren Rijiju said the People's Liberation Army transgressed the border 334 times till August 4, 2014, 411 times in 2013, 426 times in 2012, 213 times in 2011 and on 228 occasions in 2010. "However, there are cases of transgression due to difference in perception of Line of Actual Control," he said in reply to a written question. Rijiju said the Indo Tibetan Border Police, the border guarding force deployed on Sino-Indian border, has reported one transgression in Dorjila in 2013 and one transgression in Naku area in 2014 in Sikkim. The Minister said no "intrusion" has been reported or taken place along India-China border, including Sikkim, during the last five years.l


"transgression" versus "intrusion" - confusion onlee :roll:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Aditya G » 23 Aug 2014 14:44

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 763777.cms

2 civilians killed in heavy Pak shelling on 22 border posts, 13 villages
PTI | Aug 23, 2014, 11.12 AM IST

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Mihir » 23 Aug 2014 20:51


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby satya » 24 Aug 2014 01:46

^^^ An eye opener video . No wonder PLA's side seemed pissed off for having lost an opportunity to establish a post at such commanding height . Near end of video someone from PLA side ( probably an officer) was pointing to another dominating height for establishing their own post. Another point to note was Indian post seem well established going by atleast 3 room like structures but seem like only now PLA noticed its presence or perhaps they did but seem like we went ahead nonetheless.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_28131 » 24 Aug 2014 06:27

^ Eye opener indeed. The Chinese are taking their pants off everywhere and showing what they really got. That PLA soldier with the Ray-Bans on trying to be a tough guy....absolutely pathetic. If the PLA ever decides to go to war with an unprofessional army like that, they are in for a big surprise. Our boys did a fine job there.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_28716 » 24 Aug 2014 07:44

^^^^^ A Fine Example of a Professional Army, all the way down to the Jawans..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Aug 2014 02:09

Read this in full

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/manmohan-did-not-correct-map-error-to-protect-nehru-name#.U_trbeCw5Pw.twitter

Some gems from the article rephrased:

Official India map gives away parts of AP to China because MMS didnt want to tarnish Nehru's name! Orders from Sonia


In 2013, Manmohan Singh stopped our Army from challenging PLA who had pitched 6 tents inside Indian territory!


Chacha Nehru gave away Gwadar to Pakistan after the Sultan of Oman offered it to New Delhi for $1 million!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Hitesh » 26 Aug 2014 05:23

To be fair, holding onto Gwadar was not feasible. Indian Navy was not that strong to keep Gwadar supplied in times of war and reinforcements were unlikely. Even though IN was stronger than PN it was not that strong enough to maintain a robust year round supply of Gwadar especially when US has joined Pakistan as an ally during those times.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SanjayC » 26 Aug 2014 07:54

^^^ Which sane country will refuse to accept additional territory because it will not be able to hold it in case a war broke out a few decades down the line? By that logic, Chacha should have signed away entire Aksai Chin to China. The guy was simply an idiot who couldn't think like a ruler even if you put a gun to his head.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby shiv » 26 Aug 2014 08:38

SanjayC wrote:^^^ Which sane country will refuse to accept additional territory because it will not be able to hold it in case a war broke out a few decades down the line? By that logic, Chacha should have signed away entire Aksai Chin to China. The guy was simply an idiot who couldn't think like a ruler even if you put a gun to his head.


Well - from the nationalist emotional viewpoint this is true. But if a military force is at a severe disadvantage in any terrain they will de facto have to give up terrain and move to better positions. Afghanistan is a case in point where the US/NATO do not control the countryside. The terrain is unsuitable for prolonged, settled occupation. I believe Russia sold Alaska to the US for similar reasons. I doubt they would have been able to hold it.
http://rbth.com/arts/2014/04/20/why_did ... 36061.html
Then the Crimean War broke out, and Britain, France and Turkey stood against Russia. It became clear that Russia could neither supply nor defend Alaska — the sea routes were controlled by the allies’ ships. Even the prospect of mining gold dimmed. There was a fear that the British might block Alaska, and then Russia would be left with nothing. Tensions between Moscow and London grew, while relations with the American authorities were warmer than ever. Both sides almost simultaneously came up with the idea of selling Alaska. So Baron Eduard de Stoeckl, Russia’s envoy in Washington, opened talks with U.S. secretary of state William Seward on behalf of the tsar.
Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - http://rbth.com/arts/2014/04/20/why_did ... 36061.html)


I would be interested in looking at maps that show the areas of Aksai Chin that correspond to the Indus catchment area and the Tarim basin. I have read that the border between these two catchment areas would be a sensible demarcating line.

Interestingly the Indus river was the main "western border" of India. Now the border runs through Punjab and Rajasthan where no natural boundary exists. It is good tank country and that is why Longewala was such a crucial battle. If India had lost - Paki tanks would have had a free run for hundreds of Km. A defensible "natural" boundary has always been the best boundary between states.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 26 Aug 2014 10:39

shiv wrote:<SNIP>I would be interested in looking at maps that show the areas of Aksai Chin that correspond to the Indus catchment area and the Tarim basin. I have read that the border between these two catchment areas would be a sensible demarcating line.<SNIP>


Shiv, the best source of maps of the region you want to study is this:http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/india/

You can click on each grid to get a larger and more detailed map. In fact, in my study of geography of the region in Ladakh, POK and further areas to the north, these maps are the MOST DETAILED ones I've ever come across. The best part about these maps is that they show the historical land/caravan routes and passes along the same.

For example, if you study the line along eastern Ladakh up till which PLA advanced in 1962, you'll see that they control all the west to east passes along all the major ridge lines. And these passes sit astride the historic trade/caravan routes going from Ladakh (further west) to Tibet.

Coming to your question about the boundary in Aksai Chin area - you need to start from Shaksgam River and Shaksgam Valley. This is the area north to Siachen, claimed by India and which was 'ceded' by Pakistan to China in 1963. This river ultimately drains into Tarim River through Yarkand River. And hence, is part of Tarim Basin.

If you study the geography of the area, you'll see that to north of this Shaksgam Valley/river are the Kun Lun mountains and south of it are the Karakorum Mountains. Karakorum Mountains turn sharply south and culminate in the Changchenmo Range. While Kun Lun mountains continue west to east and actually separate Aksai Chin region from the main Tarim Basin in which Hotan County of China is situated.

Another river - Qarakash/Karakash River - also originates in Aksai Chin but drains into Tarim Basin to north.

Some commentators have made the observation that Aksai Chin can actually be divided into two unequal parts by a ridge called Laktsang Ridge. Area to north of this ridge is actual Aksai Chin while south of it is called 'Soda Plains' or Lingzi-Tang.

Location of Laktsang Ridge- http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.097440&lon=79.387207&z=9

The area to north of this ridge drains into Tarim Basin (Karakash River) while those south and east of it - Galwan River, Changchenmo River - drain into Indus via Shyok.

The map here http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/india/ni-44-05.jpg corresponds to area south of this ridge - Lingzi-Tang and rivers draining west can be clearly seen.

A division of boundary in Aksai Chin river along this ridge has been suggested by some observers. In fact, one of the boundary lines drawn by the British ( Macartney-MacDonald Line) corresponds broadly to the alignment of this ridge. It firmly keeps origin and drainage of Karakash River in Chinese hand while tributaries of Shyok are within Indian boundary. The Aksai-Chin road also stays comfortably with Chinese.

Do read these:
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksai_Chin - Good maps. Shows the various boundaries proposed.
(2) http://chinaindiaborderdispute.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/virendravermapaperborderdispute.pdf - very informative and objective paper on the subject.

Hope this helps.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 26 Aug 2014 10:47

However, please keep in mind that in none of the boundaries drawn and suggested by the British - save for The Johnson Line - takes into account the historical claims of Ladakh and J&K Kingdom into account. The Johnson Line itself was heavily criticized for having been made under influence of the J&K King. Another important point to understand from historical perspective is that as per the treaty under which J&K was given to Gulab Singh, he was forbidden to tamper with boundaries in the region. This was done exclusively by the British for their own interests - both commercial as well as strategic.

For example, the Lahaul and Spiti Districts were taken from Ladakh and placed under then Punjab because through them passed the trade routes in Pashmina and Shahtoosh - the British wanted to control this trade.

Similarly, the boundaries in Aksai Chin region and beyond were proposed as per strategic convenience of the British at the time.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Aug 2014 20:25

Shiv: while I agree that Gwadar would be difficult to defend, it need not have been given away without murmur. A few options that an armchair-strategist can think of:

a) Lease it to Pakistan
b) Develop it as an Indian port with some revenue sharing agreement with Pakistan
c) Extreme option: Have a naval detachment there. Declare that any attack on Gwadar is an attack on India. Build listening posts! Be prepared to defend it with war if needed
d) Use it as a bargaining chip. We fought so many wars. Demand all of POK for Gwadar etc etc. At least move the terms of the discussion. Its not just Kashmir, Kashmir. Its Kashmir & Gwadar

I am sure Pakis would have done what Pakis do: blow shit up, blockade & beg for alms etc. But I am sure Chacha didnt think even this far when he made the decision

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby srai » 27 Aug 2014 02:48

^^^

What timeframe are you talking about? India and Pakistan has had three wars since independence and in one of which Pakistan lost East Pakistan. Do you think by now Gwadar would still be in Indian hands?


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