India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sivab » 22 Sep 2014 23:27

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/xi-j ... 84400.html

Xi Jinping asks Chinese Army to be ready for a regional war

Chinese President Xi Jinping on Monday asked the People's Liberation Army (PLA) to be combat ready to win a "regional war" and make sure that all decisions from the central leadership are strictly followed.

"Headquarters of PLA forces must have absolute loyalty and firm faith in the Communist Party of China, guarantee a smooth chain of command and make sure all decisions from the central leadership are fully implemented," said Xi, chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC) and the General Secretary of the Communist Party of China (CPC).

"Headquarters of all PLA forces should improve their combat readiness and sharpen their ability to win a regional war in the age of information technology," Xi, who returned from India last week after a three-day visit, was quoted as saying by the state-run Xinhua news agency.

Though this is not the first time that Xi has asked the PLA to be ready for a "regional war", his statement assumes significance in the context of repeated incursions into Indian territory along the Line of Actual Control which cast a shadow during his visit.

All PLA forces should follow the instructions of President Xi and update their operations to meet new goals and missions set by the CMC, an official statement said.

It is not yet clear why the emphasis was made on absolute loyalty and to follow the orders to ensure smooth chain of command.

Xi's directives come in the midst of a standoff between the PLA and Indian troops in Chumar area in Ladakh region along the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

The standoff took a new turn yesterday with the PLA pitching seven tents well within the Indian territory and showing no signs of withdrawing from the territory.

Xi, 61, acquired the image of China's most powerful leader after Deng Xiaoping, who succeeded Mao, as he headed the Presidency, the CPC and the military from day one of coming to power unlike his predecessor Hu Jintao.

Since then, Xi has reshuffled the military postings of the generals loyal to him at the top and removed and prosecuted some top PLA generals for corruption.

Yesterday, General Fang Fenghui, PLA chief, said in a statement that all PLA forces follow the instructions of President Xi who is also the chairman of the CMC, which is the overall high command of the Chinese military.

Fang said the forces should update their operations to meet new goals and missions set by the CMC.

Meanwhile, the PLA chiefs of staff met in Beijing to discuss how to improve the efficiency of military command under new circumstances. Fang attended the meeting.


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ashish raval » 23 Sep 2014 01:26

What stops Indian soldiers go there and take those tents away let's see who fires first. Destroy their tents as long as no shots are fired. If they do keep fighters on stand by for vaporising them with bunker busters..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby VijayN » 23 Sep 2014 02:53

What's a little noise? Hurting without escalating, we should be getting some of these!!

http://www.technorobot.eu/en/lrad.htm

Image

(Image used for representation only)

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 23 Sep 2014 07:08

ashish raval wrote:What stops Indian soldiers go there and take those tents away let's see who fires first. Destroy their tents as long as no shots are fired. If they do keep fighters on stand by for vaporising them with bunker busters..


I am guessing that is the next step. I think they are waiting for Xi to get his house in order and give them a chance to withdraw without escalation.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 23 Sep 2014 07:13

khan wrote:
ashish raval wrote:What stops Indian soldiers go there and take those tents away let's see who fires first. Destroy their tents as long as no shots are fired. If they do keep fighters on stand by for vaporising them with bunker busters..


I am guessing that is the next step. I think they are waiting for Xi to get his house in order and give them a chance to withdraw without escalation.


Maybe there is some sort of power play going on. PLA probably wants to provoke something and escalate (don't know why), but the political leadership wants to rein them in. India might need to walk a fine line between being assertive but not aggressive.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vivek_ahuja » 23 Sep 2014 07:57

ashish raval wrote:What stops Indian soldiers go there and take those tents away let's see who fires first. Destroy their tents as long as no shots are fired. If they do keep fighters on stand by for vaporising them with bunker busters..


What stops them is this intrinsic fear of triggering a war that is not likely to happen. 1962 is still not diminished from the mindset and flashbacks of the "Forward Policy" instantly cause dhoti shiver in South Block and Army Headquarters, despite the individual bravado of the leaders involved.

Beijing and the PLA know this. That's why they indulge in such blatant disregard for the status quo. Think of a schoolyard bully who knows that no matter how much he humiliates the smaller kid, the latter will not respond out of mental paralysis.

What needs to happen here is for the PLA to step over the line accidentally and have the Indian forces kick their arses nice and strong. Even if it is accidental, it will remove all mental paralysis of 1962. From that point on you will see the PLA and Beijing go on the defensive and look for "true" solutions to the border problem.

But in the meantime, watch your stomachs churn as the Chinese push us right to the edge...but just below that threshold that will trigger a response.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramdas » 23 Sep 2014 08:03

@vivek_ahuja: could it be that 10 years of neglect of the armed forces under the anti-national UPA has left them too weak to face the consequences of an escalation by China (which has consistently built up its strength) ?

If so, the prudent thing to do now is to avoid a confrontation until we build up sufficient strength to give PLA a bloody nose in the event of an escalation.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vivek_ahuja » 23 Sep 2014 08:24

ramdas wrote:@vivek_ahuja: could it be that 10 years of neglect of the armed forces under the anti-national UPA has left them too weak to face the consequences of an escalation by China (which has consistently built up its strength) ?

If so, the prudent thing to do now is to avoid a confrontation until we build up sufficient strength to give PLA a bloody nose in the event of an escalation.


Allow me to disagree here. Fact is that despite the (best?) efforts of the previous government to emasculate the armed forces, we still retain enough resources to turn this childish skirmish in Ladakh into a lethal (and lasting) encounter for the Chinese Border Guards units.

The question is what happens afterwards. The Chinese can and will bring in large reinforcements and if the situation is allowed to develop over weeks and months rather than days, the Indian army will lose the "strategic" initiative. Despite all the bravado of the Modi government, I doubt their diplomacy skills to prevent the snowballing effect that would result.

Will the IA be able to hold its own when the Chinese have massed a large force opposite them? Maybe. But one thing is certain: the folks in New Delhi will lose the war for us far sooner than any soldier in the field will (lack of equipment or otherwise). When the will to fight doesn't exist, lack of equipment is just a convenient excuse.

It is for this reason that Beijing does not even bother posting large forces on the LAC. They simply allow their small police/guards detachments to walk up right into the faces of the elite Indian infantry units and play a game of pushing and shoving.

Bottom line is that the whole world knows right now that India is incapable of retaliation. And that's an image that is not likely to change anytime soon.

My two cents.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_26622 » 23 Sep 2014 08:58

It's quite remarkable to see China play the same game essentially in South China Sea and Ladakh. It's a game of dare where the more 'insane' side wins. China only respects power, would not even dare the Russians on.

We should start levying taxes on all Chinese imports > to cover cost of Ladakh stupidity. It's the rational thing to do and only when it starts pinching their pockets will the 'sane' Chinese elements force the 'insane' element back in to their worm holes. We export raw materials to china so taxing that will be resisted by their own folks.

Message is clear - Quit this bullshit or lose access to potentially the 3rd largest market or 2nd largest market.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 23 Sep 2014 10:17

spot on vivek_ahuja... just one quibble..
there is nothing like elite indian army units... what is elite abt army infantry battlions or ITBP? who are involved in this pushing shoving..

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby manjgu » 23 Sep 2014 10:19

and of what little we have heard chinese detachment always outnumber indian detachments !! so what is this abt small police/guards?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sarkar » 23 Sep 2014 12:15

This is infact the best time for China to use its army which is junking up without any combat experience since decades.
Russia is busy with Ukraine and US is dealing with its own creation (like always), ISIS. European union nowhere is sight in today's world with recession and now sanctions from Russia. Israel can never help any other country. They are fighting their own war and seem like will keep fighting for new few hundred years.

China is just taking its time to see if the trouble doesn't attract any other third country to support India. Honestly India is on its own and IN without a clear foreign policy should not except any other country to help us in case of war. World has invested in China more than India, so China has upper hand here. The best thing is that we have a stable govt with full backing of its people. This moment should be used to raise our internal alertness level to the era of cold war days between SOVIET and US.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby deejay » 23 Sep 2014 15:16

^^^ Hmmm. though, I don't think the Chinese will do it, but from a strategic - military view point this is exactly like past deeds of the Chinese.

They did the '62 invasion in the backdrop of Cuban Crisis. Plus, we have put up a lot of news like only 18 days ammo, Sub fleet depleting, Ships not fully ready, poor serviceability of fighters, not enough naval helicopters, etc, etc. They must have heard of it.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sarkar » 23 Sep 2014 16:49

One thing we should know and respect that Chinese are very intelligent, and this should always be kept in mind by our national security advisers before planning any counter measure, which I am sure they are doing it well. Don't expect any traditional war stuff from them and always prepare from some surprises. Shrugging things like they can't cross the river or can't come from this side because of this mountain will never help us. They are certainly not like Pakis who are doing the same thing since ages. (Cross the border and meet their creator before winter starts). No harm in being creative to believe that they can come flying on a Dragon and we should prepare for it.

Why Chumur! I think they are more interested in Demchok then Chumur. Securing Demchok means pushing Indian Army far away from their G219 highway which is lifeline to their troops far up north. May be Chumur could be start of their endgame to secure Demchok.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 23 Sep 2014 18:45

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/after ... ion-596762

After Days of India-China Stand-off at Border, Signs of a Solution
Almost two weeks after the standoff between Indian and Chinese troops at Chumur in Ladakh at the border, there are signs of a resolution after China's People's Liberation Army on Tuesday asked for another flag meeting at Chushul with Indian commanders.

"Diplomacy is at work quietly. We are confident that border security is in good hands," Foreign Ministry spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin said today.

...
India has decided to take its time before agreeing to meet the Chinese. Top sources say India is likely to respond only after a meeting tomorrow called by National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, with Army Chief General Dalbir Suhag, representatives of the Research and Analysis Wing, Intelligence Bureau, ITBP and other stakeholders.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ashish raval » 24 Sep 2014 01:31

We should sell at least batch of three hundred brahmos to Vietnam and thailand asap. Next start training scientists of Vietnam on nuke submarine as well as power stations. Myanmar needs to be brought in Indian fold.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_23370 » 24 Sep 2014 02:42

Don't trust thailand. Vietnam has yakhont but 300+ brahmos would be welcome addition.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rkhanna » 24 Sep 2014 09:51

meeting tomorrow called by National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, with Army Chief General Dalbir Suhag, representatives of the Research and Analysis Wing, Intelligence Bureau, ITBP and other stakeholders.


IMO now is the time to Grow a Pair and use them with some audacious brainpower

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Sep 2014 12:24

Gen S A Hasnain (retd) has penned an excellent articleon the recent border standoff in the Indian express..sorry i couldnt place the URL here.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_28714 » 24 Sep 2014 12:30

ashish raval wrote:We should sell at least batch of three hundred brahmos to Vietnam and thailand asap. Next start training scientists of Vietnam on nuke submarine as well as power stations. Myanmar needs to be brought in Indian fold.



Even the IA has only 4 regiments = approx 240 missiles. how on earth are we going to give vietnam 300?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Sep 2014 12:30

ravip wrote:I don't know whether I am speculating or not.

But seeing the reports I have a strong gut feeling that the recent cease fire violations are an attempt of ethnic cleansing by shelling the areas of jammu which have a majority of sikh & Hindu population or may be this might an attempt to create fear in people or stop the mission 44 of BJP.

This effort of Pakis is getting active political support from the abdullas and other Mulla's , they are trying there best to keep there flock together to resist the mission 44.

If this were a Pake plan in connivance with congi and NC support, it will surely backfire... It has united nin-muslims, talk about resettling Pandits has also gained ground... The stellar role of Armed forces and non kashmiri volunteeers in flood relief has made a dent, albeit a small one...

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SanjayC » 24 Sep 2014 12:47

George wrote:
ashish raval wrote:We should sell at least batch of three hundred brahmos to Vietnam and thailand asap. Next start training scientists of Vietnam on nuke submarine as well as power stations. Myanmar needs to be brought in Indian fold.



Even the IA has only 4 regiments = approx 240 missiles. how on earth are we going to give vietnam 300?


If Vietnam is ready to pay, we can give them even 3000 by jacking up production. What is the problem in this?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Sep 2014 13:02

^^^ producing 300 Brahmos missiles and say, 10 launchers and associated support vehicles will take years... To induct thes 4 regimenta, IA has taken umpteen years... How much can they ramp-up production... Will take ages...

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_28714 » 24 Sep 2014 13:12

SanjayC wrote:
George wrote:
Even the IA has only 4 regiments = approx 240 missiles. how on earth are we going to give vietnam 300?


If Vietnam is ready to pay, we can give them even 3000 by jacking up production. What is the problem in this?


3000?

ok, well I dont think its possible, it will take us years just to hike up capacity. I think current Bramhos production capacity is between 100 and 200 a year.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby SanjayC » 24 Sep 2014 14:10

Shrinivasan wrote:^^^ producing 300 Brahmos missiles and say, 10 launchers and associated support vehicles will take years... To induct thes 4 regimenta, IA has taken umpteen years... How much can they ramp-up production... Will take ages...


That is because they don't have the mentality of a salesman.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pushkar.bhat » 24 Sep 2014 19:57

Shrinivasan wrote:Gen S A Hasnain (retd) has penned an excellent articleon the recent border standoff in the Indian express..sorry i couldnt place the URL here.


Were you referring to this article.

No war, no peace

Syed Ata Hasnain

China seems to believe it can follow a dual-track policy of benefiting from economic and diplomatic engagement while continuing to remind the other nation that it has territorial issues to settle.

In the euphoria over the potential economic and diplomatic gains from the visit of the Chinese president, the nagging problem at Demchok and Chumar remained inexplicable to most casual observers. The games being played from Depsang (2013) to Demchok and Chumar have long gone on and “tolerance for ambiguity” has its limits.


Rest of the article can be accessed on this link.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby putnanja » 24 Sep 2014 22:27

Yup, same thing on IE too ...

No war, no peace

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 24 Sep 2014 23:15

That article by Lt Gen Hasnain is a wonderful piece which shows clarity of thought and grasp of finer aspects of the situation. Really like the way he brings out how ambiguity is dangerous and runs contrary to conduct of military ops at sub-tactical level. One important point to note is the hint about COAS having direct access to PM. Good development that. NM receives inputs directly from people on the ground.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ashish raval » 25 Sep 2014 01:19

Well private sector can produce as many missile components as you they want. The only thing which lacks is sell mentality which is acting like a mental block in babu's. What stops us arming Vietnam when Chinese merrily arms pukes with frigates, m11, babur...jf17 and other weapons.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby sivab » 25 Sep 2014 09:42

Lot more details in this article with info feeds from both sides.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/09/2 ... FU20140924

Insight - With canal and hut, India stands up to China on disputed frontier

Earlier this month, the Indian army, stationed on a remote Himalayan plateau, built a small observation hut from where they could watch Chinese soldiers across a disputed border.

The move so irked China's military that it laid a road on territory claimed by India and demanded that the tin hut be dismantled. India refused, destroyed a part of the new road and promptly raised troop numbers in the area.


Prime Minister Narendra Modi is making good on election promises of a more robust national security policy, and the fact that around 1,000 soldiers from each side are facing off in Ladakh is evidence even mighty China is not off limits.

No shots have been fired, and a brief border war between the world's two most populous nations was fought 52 years ago.

But Indian military officials said the situation in the Chumar area of Ladakh had been unusually tense in recent weeks, highlighting a simmering disagreement between the nuclear-armed neighbours that is back on the agenda at the highest level.

Modi, a nationalist who swept to power in May, was unusually forthright when Chinese President Xi Jinping visited India in mid-September, challenging Xi in private on the question of incursions along their 3,500-km contested frontier.

Afterwards, he told a news conference in the presence of the Chinese leader that peace and stability on the border were needed for better economic ties Beijing has been pressing for.

P. Stobdan, a former Indian ambassador and a Ladakhi with deep knowledge of the competing claims in the region, sees a shift in New Delhi's thinking.

"The hut has become the bone of contention. The Chinese have drawn a red line. They want it demolished before they will withdraw," he said.


Last year, the Chinese forced the Indians to demolish another hut in Chumar in return for ending a face-off.

"This time the new government does not seem to be in a mood to budge," Stobdan added.

NO LONGER BUSINESS AS USUAL

Beginning in June, as it prepared to receive Xi, Modi's government set in train a series of bold actions on the border where Indian officials say China has long been nibbling away at its territory.

It ordered faster construction of 72 strategic roads along the border to narrow the gap with China's vastly superior and intricate network of roads and tracks in the mountains.

It has also rebuilt airfields, including a landing strip laid in Daulat Beg Oldi in Ladakh in 1962, the year the two countries fought their short war.

Over the past few months C-130 Hercules planes bought from the United States have been landing at the airfield some 30 km from Depsang, the site of a 21-day standoff last year when People's Liberation Army soldiers set up tents on India's side of the 1962 ceasefire line.

V.K. Singh, minister for the northeastern states, another area where the border is in dispute with China, says it is no longer business as usual on the so-called Line of Actual Control (LAC) dividing the two countries.

Incursions from both sides are common along the ceasefire line, because their armies cannot agree where it lies, making a final settlement a distant prospect.

"Sometimes (in the past), I think for political reasons or other reasons, we would have said OK, leave it. But that perpetuates the problem, it doesn't solve the problem," said Singh, a former army chief handpicked to beef up civilian and military infrastructure in the northeast.

"You keep giving a concession, it only perpetuates the problem. So somewhere up the hierarchy someone has to say 'let's hold on'," he told Reuters in an interview about the latest confrontation with China.


India was humiliated in the 1962 war and, since then, while it has built up its conventional military and nuclear and missile capabilities, it has been careful to avoid showdowns at the border, which, despite 17 rounds of talks over two decades, remains unsettled.

Hu Zhiyong, a research fellow with the Institute of International Relations at the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, told China's state-run Global Times that the Modi government's moves to build up infrastructure and equipment on the Indian side of the LAC signalled a shift in posture.

"The 'offensive' strategy aims to gain more leverage in the talks," Hu told the fiercely nationalist newspaper.

HIGH-ALTITUDE HUT

The chain of events leading to the latest tensions began in Demchok, on the southeastern corner of Ladakh. On August 18, India started building an irrigation canal there as part of the government's rural jobs guarantee programme.

China protested, saying it was located inside its territory.

Then, on September 8, Indian troops erected their observation hut on a hillock in Chumar, one of the areas along the LAC where India has the tactical advantage of height.

Retired Indian army brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal, who has served in high-altitude areas, said India's position there overlooks Chinese encampments and a dirt road leading up to the area.

Beijing's response was swift. Within a day, some 500 PLA troops crossed into the area and used cranes and bulldozers to build a 2 km (1.2-mile) road.

Later that night, Indian soldiers dug up part of that road, but the Chinese have not withdrawn from the area, which New Delhi considers to be several kilometres inside its territory.

Around 1,000 soldiers from each side are ranged against each other, and further to the east, a group of Chinese civilians backed by the PLA intruded into the Demchok sector where India was trying to build the irrigation canal, Indian officials said.

China's public comments on the latest row with India have been measured.

"The China-India border dispute is a left-over from history. The two countries' border, to this day, has not been designated, and the two sides' understanding of the real line of control is not the same," the Defence Ministry said, adding that both New Delhi and Beijing were resolved to manage the problem.

A CIVILISED CUP OF TEA

India says China violated the ceasefire line 334 times in the first eight months of this year. Chinese officials with Xi on his visit last week said India had violated the LAC 410 times, according to an Indian government official at the talks.

Border patrols have become more frequent and probing deeper into each other's territories, officials say, often running into each other. Earlier, the two armies sent out patrols on alternating days along the most contentious areas of the border so that their troops wouldn't come into contact.

"If there is a border patrol that crosses the LAC as perceived by the other side, they are supposed to offer them a cup of tea and ask them to leave immediately. The idea is it should be civilised behaviour. At times this civilised behaviour has spun out of control with soldiers roughing each other up," said an Indian officer at the army headquarters in New Delhi.


But the head of Ladakh's local government said India had neglected the border area for decades to its own and local people's detriment. Only now was it starting to plug the gaps, he added, and that had provoked the Chinese.

"We have lost so much pasture land, grazing land over a period of time to China," said Rigzin Spalbar, chief executive councillor of the Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council.

"We told our people not to go close to the LAC, the area was left vacant and the Chinese sent their herders in. Now those areas have become their possessions."

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby James B » 25 Sep 2014 11:10

Here is the real story behind recent Chinese incursions. India is standing up to the bully.

With canal and hut, India stands up to China on disputed frontier | Reuters

(Reuters) - Earlier this month, the Indian army, stationed on a remote Himalayan plateau, built a small observation hut from where they could watch Chinese soldiers across a disputed border.

The move so irked China's military that it laid a road on territory claimed by India and demanded that the tin hut be dismantled. India refused, destroyed a part of the new road and promptly raised troop numbers in the area.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi is making good on election promises of a more robust national security policy, and the fact that around 1,000 soldiers from each side are facing off in Ladakh is evidence even mighty China is not off limits.

No shots have been fired, and a brief border war between the world's two most populous nations was fought 52 years ago.

But Indian military officials said the situation in the Chumar area of Ladakh had been unusually tense in recent weeks, highlighting a simmering disagreement between the nuclear-armed neighbours that is back on the agenda at the highest level.

Modi, a nationalist who swept to power in May, was unusually forthright when Chinese President Xi Jinping visited India in mid-September, challenging Xi in private on the question of incursions along their 3,500-km contested frontier.

Afterwards, he told a news conference in the presence of the Chinese leader that peace and stability on the border were needed for better economic ties Beijing has been pressing for.

P. Stobdan, a former Indian ambassador and a Ladakhi with deep knowledge of the competing claims in the region, sees a shift in New Delhi's thinking.

"The hut has become the bone of contention. The Chinese have drawn a red line. They want it demolished before they will withdraw," he said.

Last year, the Chinese forced the Indians to demolish another hut in Chumar in return for ending a face-off.

"This time the new government does not seem to be in a mood to budge," Stobdan added.

NO LONGER BUSINESS AS USUAL

Beginning in June, as it prepared to receive Xi, Modi's government set in train a series of bold actions on the border where Indian officials say China has long been nibbling away at its territory.

It ordered faster construction of 72 strategic roads along the border to narrow the gap with China's vastly superior and intricate network of roads and tracks in the mountains.

It has also rebuilt airfields, including a landing strip laid in Daulat Beg Oldi in Ladakh in 1962, the year the two countries fought their short war.

Over the past few months C-130 Hercules planes bought from the United States have been landing at the airfield some 30 km from Depsang, the site of a 21-day standoff last year when People's Liberation Army soldiers set up tents on India's side of the 1962 ceasefire line.

V.K. Singh, minister for the northeastern states, another area where the border is in dispute with China, says it is no longer business as usual on the so-called Line of Actual Control (LAC) dividing the two countries.

Incursions from both sides are common along the ceasefire line, because their armies cannot agree where it lies, making a final settlement a distant prospect.

"Sometimes (in the past), I think for political reasons or other reasons, we would have said OK, leave it. But that perpetuates the problem, it doesn't solve the problem," said Singh, a former army chief handpicked to beef up civilian and military infrastructure in the northeast.

"You keep giving a concession, it only perpetuates the problem. So somewhere up the hierarchy someone has to say 'let's hold on'," he told Reuters in an interview about the latest confrontation with China.

India was humiliated in the 1962 war and, since then, while it has built up its conventional military and nuclear and missile capabilities, it has been careful to avoid showdowns at the border, which, despite 17 rounds of talks over two decades, remains unsettled.

Hu Zhiyong, a research fellow with the Institute of International Relations at the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences, told China's state-run Global Times that the Modi government's moves to build up infrastructure and equipment on the Indian side of the LAC signalled a shift in posture.

"The 'offensive' strategy aims to gain more leverage in the talks," Hu told the fiercely nationalist newspaper.

HIGH-ALTITUDE HUT

The chain of events leading to the latest tensions began in Demchok, on the southeastern corner of Ladakh. On August 18, India started building an irrigation canal there as part of the government's rural jobs guarantee programme.

China protested, saying it was located inside its territory.

Then, on September 8, Indian troops erected their observation hut on a hillock in Chumar, one of the areas along the LAC where India has the tactical advantage of height.

Retired Indian army brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal, who has served in high-altitude areas, said India's position there overlooks Chinese encampments and a dirt road leading up to the area.

Beijing's response was swift. Within a day, some 500 PLA troops crossed into the area and used cranes and bulldozers to build a 2 km (1.2-mile) road.

Later that night, Indian soldiers dug up part of that road, but the Chinese have not withdrawn from the area, which New Delhi considers to be several kilometres inside its territory.

Around 1,000 soldiers from each side are ranged against each other, and further to the east, a group of Chinese civilians backed by the PLA intruded into the Demchok sector where India was trying to build the irrigation canal, Indian officials said.

China's public comments on the latest row with India have been measured.

"The China-India border dispute is a left-over from history. The two countries' border, to this day, has not been designated, and the two sides' understanding of the real line of control is not the same," the Defence Ministry said, adding that both New Delhi and Beijing were resolved to manage the problem.

A CIVILISED CUP OF TEA

India says China violated the ceasefire line 334 times in the first eight months of this year. Chinese officials with Xi on his visit last week said India had violated the LAC 410 times, according to an Indian government official at the talks.

Border patrols have become more frequent and probing deeper into each other's territories, officials say, often running into each other. Earlier, the two armies sent out patrols on alternating days along the most contentious areas of the border so that their troops wouldn't come into contact.

"If there is a border patrol that crosses the LAC as perceived by the other side, they are supposed to offer them a cup of tea and ask them to leave immediately. The idea is it should be civilised behaviour. At times this civilised behaviour has spun out of control with soldiers roughing each other up," said an Indian officer at the army headquarters in New Delhi.

But the head of Ladakh's local government said India had neglected the border area for decades to its own and local people's detriment. Only now was it starting to plug the gaps, he added, and that had provoked the Chinese.

"We have lost so much pasture land, grazing land over a period of time to China," said Rigzin Spalbar, chief executive councillor of the Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council.

"We told our people not to go close to the LAC, the area was left vacant and the Chinese sent their herders in. Now those areas have become their possessions."

ravip
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ravip » 25 Sep 2014 11:17

There is some thing in this standoff than what meets to eye...yesterday in the news hour arnab was quoting number of sorties of some airbase in Tibet have increased by 60% and since July the front line ground attack fighters have been deployed for the first time and about missile being moved to tunnels and new radars and SAM being deployed since last month....The retired generals of IA are speaking in divided tones about the incident...lack of clarity is pushing the situation to tense, I hope and pray forces are prepared for any contingencies and when the push comes to the shove we have give them a bloody nose even if it is a local and isolated incident.

Any chaiwaals or paanwals having any news about the situation??? reading what is there in the public domain it seems that the situation is similar to defcon 2, hope the shit doesn't hit the fan and if necessary MODI should make a tactical retreat or solve it through d diplomacy, in the mean time there should be rapid infrastructural development and force & equipment augmentation on war footing. However i am not saying we should act like cowards but use chankiyaa theories wisely in the instant flare up.

RoyG
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RoyG » 25 Sep 2014 11:32

It's a well timed provocation. They are warning Modi not to get close to the US.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_28714 » 25 Sep 2014 11:42

ravip wrote:There is some thing in this standoff than what meets to eye...yesterday in the news hour arnab was quoting number of sorties of some airbase in Tibet have increased by 60% and since July the front line ground attack fighters have been deployed for the first time and about missile being moved to tunnels and new radars and SAM being deployed since last month....The retired generals of IA are speaking in divided tones about the incident...lack of clarity is pushing the situation to tense, I hope and pray forces are prepared for any contingencies and when the push comes to the shove we have give them a bloody nose even if it is a local and isolated incident.

Any chaiwaals or paanwals having any news about the situation??? reading what is there in the public domain it seems that the situation is similar to defcon 2, hope the shit doesn't hit the fan and if necessary MODI should make a tactical retreat or solve it through d diplomacy, in the mean time there should be rapid infrastructural development and force & equipment augmentation on war footing. However i am not saying we should act like cowards but use chankiyaa theories wisely in the instant flare up.


we should be ready to open a new front if war starts in ladhakh

ravip
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ravip » 25 Sep 2014 12:56

George wrote:we should be ready to open a new front if war starts in ladhakh


The only front we can dominate is indian ocean, at broders there are many odds stacked against us, so it is better to use diplomacy in the instant flare up.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby RKumar » 25 Sep 2014 13:19

There are signs of the trouble ...

1. Standoff in Ladhakh
2. Chinese Nuclear/conventional sub docking in SL for the first time.
3. For the first time Chinese admitting there is problem at the border in open words.
4. Confirmed increased Indian military/intelligence activity on the India side to match and meet Chinese activities going on since years on their/our side.
5. Getting late confirmations (like Kargil) that Chinese have taken away many areas inch by inch without any fight over years.
6. India openly retreating from One China policy.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Shrinivasan » 25 Sep 2014 13:27

rohitvats wrote:That article by Lt Gen Hasnain is a wonderful piece which shows clarity of thought and grasp of finer aspects of the situation. Really like the way he brings out how ambiguity is dangerous...
Agree 100%, i read this article 2-3 times and was struck with the level of clarity of the good general. His prescription of the leaders in delhi doing their strategic thinking and allowing the leaders on the ground tactical autonomy (inside this strategic doctrine) is something what the doctor ordered.

Methinks, the Baboons and Netas (and Jernails too) in Delhi to cover their lack of strategic vision end up gettign involved in mundane tactical stuff and direct these in remote control. This not only emasculates the officers on the ground, but also robs them of rich experiences which will prepare them for a higher calling.

Modi directly interacting with Baboos and Chiefs is definitely a good development.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jamwal » 25 Sep 2014 15:44

RoyG wrote:It's a well timed provocation. They are warning Modi not to get close to the US.



I don't think it's a good way of preventing India from getting closer to US.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby deejay » 25 Sep 2014 17:14

@Shrinivasan: General Hasnain is a legend to many. A great person. Now that he has retired, we may see / hear of him more often.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby deejay » 25 Sep 2014 17:16

ravip wrote:
George wrote:we should be ready to open a new front if war starts in ladhakh


The only front we can dominate is indian ocean, at broders there are many odds stacked against us, so it is better to use diplomacy in the instant flare up.


There is something happening on the Sikkim border. Chinese are building up force levels there. Heard on TV news.


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