India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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pratik
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by pratik »

yensoy wrote:
pratik wrote:https://twitter.com/CRolanova/status/12 ... 95360?s=20
I am trying to find the info on Pangong lake and chinese presence on our soil. As per the above tweet, If chinese are sitting at Finger-4/5 than it is almost 43 km incursion in our area.
- Is the road on northern edge of the lake between Finger-1 to Finger-8 ours?
Thank you.
From some online research I have concluded that we are well established at Finger 4 (the "ITBP" sign) and patrol till the crest of the next finger like protrusion into the lake at the corner where the lake bends from NS to EW; and I think the Chinese patrol beyond that. They have a pucca road built till Sirijap from there.

Now we can claim the 8th finger and conclude that the Chinese have intruded but that has been the case from before. Sirijap actually has some habitations, so it's not some rapidly constructed Chinese bunker. The disputed roadway would basically be between Finger 4 and 5, and our interest is in keeping them from proceeding no further ahead from the turnaround they have constructed at 33 43 17.3, 78 45 48.8 so they don't have a clear optical view of the other end of the lake.

In that sense, our claim between the ITBP sign and the turnarond is not enforced by way of road. I hope we have pushed in a company or so of soldiers by way of the lake to camp out on the beach, while the road construction crew are chipping away at the rock, and that we have a pucca road till the above point by the end of summer. Maybe the skirmishes are happening by the beach here with the Chinese trying to further ingress and stop our road construction.

Likewise on the southern side. The LAC alignment in wikimapia seems to be correct because on the south side there is the flag meeting location which I presume isn't disputed, and there are some well known landmarks such as Camel's back, Table Top and a pass, with paths on either side connecting to paved roads in their respective administered areas. It doesn't look like there is much room for dispute, in fact there is more room for us to ingress into their side of LAC given how close to the LAC our roads run; we also seem to have a height advantage of sorts there.

The twitter image is patently false in the way it depicts the southern side balance. There is no "Chinese Forward Camp". That place is between 2 Indian villages Maan and Spangmik, well within Indian controlled territory that they will be truly besieged on all sides by us, including the water.
Thanks for clarifications.
Does it mean that location 33 43 17.3, 78 45 48.8 is a finger-4?
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by arshyam »

^^ Yes, our side of finger-4.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Davidrock »

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/06/ ... n-can.html

Off late, news from Ajai Shukla is really worrying. And silence from Govt is even hurting more.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sravan »

Image

Bofors being prepared
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Aditya_V »

Davidrock wrote:http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/06/ ... n-can.html

Off late, news from Ajai Shukla is really worrying. And silence from Govt is even hurting more.
News from Ajai Sukla from May 2014 has been doom and gloom and how India will collapse, there is nothing off late about it. China has not occupied any territory which it did not illegally occupy before.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by pratik »

High res images....
https://imgur.com/a/kspcCzQ

Can someone identify these chinese facilities at Pangong lake? Must admit they are well equiped for last many years.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ani_sharma »

Satellite Imagery expert Colonel Vinayak Bhat (retd) believes that the mountain could contain gold deposits.

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst

More about this claim: A quick google search (In English part of the world) gave no previous mention of even possibility of gold in these regions. So, either this news is incorrect- or - this knowledge (of gold) is only known to chinese and hasn't been researched, reported and documented by India.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by kit »

ani_sharma wrote:Satellite Imagery expert Colonel Vinayak Bhat (retd) believes that the mountain could contain gold deposits.

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst

More about this claim: A quick google search (In English part of the world) gave no previous mention of even possibility of gold in these regions. So, either this news is incorrect- or - this knowledge (of gold) is only known to chinese and hasn't been researched, reported and documented by India.
Lot many places have gold , unless it can be commercially extracted no value
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sravan »

Can we bring the conversation back to pushing the Chinese back? What’s the game plan?

We get easily distracted with nonsense. Our main focus should be On pushing them out.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Lekhraj »

Currently, game is to push them back using hands.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by yensoy »

pratik wrote:High res images....
https://imgur.com/a/kspcCzQ Can someone identify these chinese facilities at Pangong lake? Must admit they are well equiped for last many years.
One of them is a boat dock. We also need a boat dock closer to Finger 4 for temporary stationing supporting quick response, for logistics as well as support.
ani_sharma wrote:Satellite Imagery expert Colonel Vinayak Bhat (retd) believes that the mountain could contain gold deposits.
More about this claim: A quick google search (In English part of the world) gave no previous mention of even possibility of gold in these regions. So, either this news is incorrect- or - this knowledge (of gold) is only known to chinese and hasn't been researched, reported and documented by India.
If the Geological Survey of India has not done a thorough survey of the areas, the stability of the mountains, and analysis of composition of the minerals, then we have only ourselves to blame.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sravan »

Lekhraj wrote:Currently, game is to push them back using hands.
I strongly think we should escalate before they do further reinforcement.

We should just start escalating slowly and keep reinforcing. If it’s a battle of attrition, we need to dislodge these ****** from their posts and not settle for status quo. Take all of Aksai Chin, if need be also take all of PoK.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Lekhraj »

After taking POK, we need to free Tibet and diminish China's influence on Nepal, Burma and Srilanka. Then we need to stop all imports form China and turn them to begger nation.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by jpremnath »

Lekhraj wrote:After taking POK, we need to free Tibet and diminish China's influence on Nepal, Burma and Srilanka. Then we need to stop all imports form China and turn them to begger nation.
Freeing Tibet?...Nice!! First let us see if we have it in us to dislodge the Chinese from Finger 8 of the lake..
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by chola »

jpremnath wrote:
Lekhraj wrote:After taking POK, we need to free Tibet and diminish China's influence on Nepal, Burma and Srilanka. Then we need to stop all imports form China and turn them to begger nation.
Freeing Tibet?...Nice!! First let us see if we have it in us to dislodge the Chinese from Finger 8 of the lake..
True. It's psychological.

The numbers are in our favor. Overwhelmingly in our favor. 250K versus 21K. All it takes is one person to make the call and it is a foregone conclusion.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by vishvak »

ani_sharma wrote:Satellite Imagery expert Colonel Vinayak Bhat (retd) believes that the mountain could contain gold deposits.

..- or - this knowledge (of gold) is only known to chinese and hasn't been researched, reported and documented by India.
Tibet is also called third pole of the world, not to forget what has people already mentioned here about rivers sources for many countries and it is not unknown by any standards. Can we afford to let Chinese run wild and repent later. Our first PM chacha Nehru waited for news of Chinese reaching Lhasa the capital of Tibet, not to forget handing over UN permanent membership to China and kicked the can down the road.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by jpremnath »

chola wrote:
True. It's psychological.

The numbers are in our favor. Overwhelmingly in our favor. 250K versus 21K. All it takes is one person to make the call and it is a foregone conclusion.
There sure is a mental block...We can feel it..Almost like our forces want to just wait it out even with all the superiority in numbers. We let the Chinese take initiative to choose the point and scale of escalation. And then give them ample time to bring in reinforcements and artillery.
And listen to this...
...When asked if this was an intelligence and operational failure, a senior officer said, "China stabbed us in the back. In the middle of a pandemic, this was not expected."...
Seriously??!!...And these are the folks coming out of vaunted IMA?
Last edited by jpremnath on 01 Jun 2020 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Dilbu »

No Chinese ‘occupation’. Geolocated images show fast in-and-out intrusions by India and China
Our visual surveillance of Chinese camps in the region did show a change in the parking positions of these vehicles as well as trucks (presumably transporting the troops seen in the background in Image 5). Significantly all these vehicles seemed to have returned to their Chinese bases, with none staying on the Indian side over a 14-day period. This proves that whatever happened was momentary and was repulsed rapidly.
This is significant for three reasons. First, it shows considerable Indian activity west of the ITBP base, literally a day or two after the deep Chinese incursion described earlier. Second, it confirms that the Indian troops were ordered to proceed into the Chinese side of the LAC albeit not as deep as the Chinese incursion into India. Third, it confirms that by this time (22 May) there was no Chinese presence west of the LAC, putting paid to any rumours of an “occupation”. Moreover, it confirms our interpretation of Images 1 through 5, that the Chinese were doing rapid sweeps and testing Indian readiness in the area, not occupying it.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by chetak »

jpremnath wrote:
chola wrote:
True. It's psychological.

The numbers are in our favor. Overwhelmingly in our favor. 250K versus 21K. All it takes is one person to make the call and it is a foregone conclusion.
There sure is a mental block...We can feel it..Almost like our forces want to just wait it out even with all the superiority in numbers. We let the Chinese take initiative to choose the point and scale of escalation. And then give them ample time to bring in reinforcements and artillery.
And listen to this...
...When asked if this was an intelligence and operational failure, a senior officer said, "China stabbed us in the back. In the middle of a pandemic, this was not expected."...
Seriously??!!...And these are the folks coming out of vaunted IMA?
there is something known as psyops.

no senior IA gentleman will say such a thing publicly and especially to the press, unless it was a pre arranged question and an answer obviously meant to be publicized.

there is never a free flowing, unstructured press melee with the forces.

Such events are almost always carefully planned set pieces with roles, actors and scripts being preassigned. Deviate and the guilty cowboys are banished forever.

after burkha butt and kargil, the forces do not trust the press.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by jpremnath »

chetak wrote: there is something known as psyops.

no senior IA gentleman will say such a thing publicly and especially to the press, unless it was a pre arranged question and an answer obviously meant to be publicized.
I sincerely hope that is the case..But the fact that we let both the Bhooka nangas and Chinese pick and choose the place and scale of engagement is worrying. And we limit our response and make it our responsibility to prevent escalations. We have become predictable to our enemies. Also, this is not the first time our Generals are caught napping.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ArjunPandit »

Not sure if it was posted here in this forum...

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1267379357229682688

Forward Kahuta : 6
Nakiyal : 4
Village Kana Roli, Kotli : 6
Dungi : 5
Hajira : 5

No. may be much higher than these as ground intelligence is still emerging.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by manjgu »

a partial siachenization of indo chini border is the answer ... to tell them no more. I still believe time is on our side..we need to ramp up our infra and desi MIC.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by chetak »

jpremnath wrote:
chetak wrote: there is something known as psyops.

no senior IA gentleman will say such a thing publicly and especially to the press, unless it was a pre arranged question and an answer obviously meant to be publicized.
I sincerely hope that is the case..But the fact that we let both the Bhooka nangas and Chinese pick and choose the place and scale of engagement is worrying. And we limit our response and make it our responsibility to prevent escalations. We have become predictable to our enemies. Also, this is not the first time our Generals are caught napping.
there are active satellites on both sides of the border.

very difficult to catch anyone "napping"

there may be a lag because of the long distances involved and the time taken to reach there, something that is equally applicable to both sides.

don't believe everything social media says.

Everyone and his uncle has some agenda to drive and also many axes to grind.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by putnanja »

I am surprised by the number of people dhoti shivering and having zero confidence in our forces here in BR thread! With so much knowledge here, one would have expected better educated posts. instead, people are already doubting the govt, the armed forces, thinking we will fail as China's GDP is multiple times ours, will need US help, blah blah blah.

Please give credit to our battle hardened forces, who have seen action not just in varied geographies in the subcontinent but also in other places as part of UN contingent. Everyone knows how the Chinese peacekeepers cowered in their camp and didn't come out to fight with rebels in Africa.

Take a chill pill guys
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Shameek »

While we do have complete confidence in our forces, it is important to work on and win the 'perception' war. It is quite well known that the Chinese have bought out media outlets globally that will publish their narrative and spin any incident in their favor. Our DDM will then lap up those stories and that is what the common man will read and spread on social media. This was a learning last year after the Pulwama incident. If we do not take control of the story, they will create it for us. Trying to refute it then is too late. Few people go back and read a rebuttal of a tweet or a headline.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sravan »

My biggest concern is why isn’t there more anger on the forums. Any other nation state, the general population will be out for blood. We need to have a vengeful mindset to force the government’s hand to retaliate. Just as much the government is watching Chinese, it is also monitoring the population’s appetite for war. I think in general what I’m hearing is : we need more time... we need more money... we need more equipment...

What we need is the guts to say enough is enough. Respect our borders or we will hit you where the sun don’t shine. We need more cowboyism. Shoot first, ask questions later.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by VikramS »

Leaders have to pick the battles they have to fight.

And fight the battles at the time and place of their choice.

Right now the primary focus is to cut off the terror inflow from POK.

Any action on the Aksai Chin border will be a distraction from that goal.

Strategy with the Chinese to hold your ground and continue building the infra which GOI has done (moving 12000 construction workers).
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by abhik »

BTW where's the discussion on the dozen or so pakis terrorists getting their 72 yesterday?
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by kit »

abhik wrote:BTW where's the discussion on the dozen or so pakis terrorists getting their 72 yesterday?

i think it has become passe' for cockroaches to be squashed on a regular basis
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by khan »

Sravan wrote:My biggest concern is why isn’t there more anger on the forums. Any other nation state, the general population will be out for blood. We need to have a vengeful mindset to force the government’s hand to retaliate. Just as much the government is watching Chinese, it is also monitoring the population’s appetite for war. I think in general what I’m hearing is : we need more time... we need more money... we need more equipment...

What we need is the guts to say enough is enough. Respect our borders or we will hit you where the sun don’t shine. We need more cowboyism. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Because there isn’t much to get upset about, the Chinese tried to do something and are being pushed back. The Chinese objective was to block road construction - but now India will accelerate the road construction - with full security bandobast.

To get rid of the Chinese camps (if any are left), IA will now do a months long harassment strategy - which is part of protocol and has been done many times before. The Chinese will not just sit in there camps and take daily IA beatings for no reason.

The thing to watch out for is any further escalation beyond what we have seen - and I think IA is well prepared for it.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by suryag »

^^^ In essence, GoI has said we wont take this lying down we will do what we think is justified and within our rights. Just to make it very clear to them we have started flying jets in that area. We will do what we think is correct now if they want to escalate it go ahead we are ready. This is the best way to deal with a bully short of punching him on his nose
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Lekhraj »

Sravan wrote:My biggest concern is why isn’t there more anger on the forums. Any other nation state, the general population will be out for blood. We need to have a vengeful mindset to force the government’s hand to retaliate. Just as much the government is watching Chinese, it is also monitoring the population’s appetite for war. I think in general what I’m hearing is : we need more time... we need more money... we need more equipment...

What we need is the guts to say enough is enough. Respect our borders or we will hit you where the sun don’t shine. We need more cowboyism. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Kyonki Gussa akal ko kha jaata he.

Anger spoils the brain.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by AdityaM »

ArjunPandit wrote:Not sure if it was posted here in this forum...

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1267379357229682688

Forward Kahuta : 6
Nakiyal : 4
Village Kana Roli, Kotli : 6
Dungi : 5
Hajira : 5

No. may be much higher than these as ground intelligence is still emerging.
During balakot & aftermath people here were circumspect about quoting anonymous accounts here. now everyone is quoting bababanaras part2.
Has any of his posts got authenticated later?

He is reverse psyops, and that means some or most of it could be an exaggeration
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by suryag »

krodhad bhavati sammohah sammohat smrti-vibhramah
smrti-bhramsad buddhi-naso buddhi-nasat pranasyati - Geeta 2.63

Anger leads to delusion, delusion to memory loss, there on to loss of ability to act intelligently leading to downfall
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Nihat »

It's great to see the way we have responded to Chinese posturing on the border, as it's well known that they only respect power. Though, it's still not clear why they are acting out in this manner, the resolve that we have shown in the form to ability to mobilize and push ahead with projects will surely make them look for a face saver.

We are a battle hardened army and if push comes to shove, the Chinese would run with their tail between their legs.

My sincere hope is that after these intruders decide to settle the matter and go home, we not only keep up the border works but double the harassment in the IOR region, because that is their sore point.

More power to the leadership and the forces for standing up to a bully and pushing it back.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sravan »

khan wrote:
Sravan wrote:My biggest concern is why isn’t there more anger on the forums. Any other nation state, the general population will be out for blood. We need to have a vengeful mindset to force the government’s hand to retaliate. Just as much the government is watching Chinese, it is also monitoring the population’s appetite for war. I think in general what I’m hearing is : we need more time... we need more money... we need more equipment...

What we need is the guts to say enough is enough. Respect our borders or we will hit you where the sun don’t shine. We need more cowboyism. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Because there isn’t much to get upset about, the Chinese tried to do something and are being pushed back. The Chinese objective was to block road construction - but now India will accelerate the road construction - with full security bandobast.

To get rid of the Chinese camps (if any are left), IA will now do a months long harassment strategy - which is part of protocol and has been done many times before. The Chinese will not just sit in there camps and take daily IA beatings for no reason.

The thing to watch out for is any further escalation beyond what we have seen - and I think IA is well prepared for it.
I humbly disagree. If you are content with a defensive strategy only, we will be punched a hundred times and let’s say we block 90, 10 punches still get through. That’s a guaranteed defeat. It only defers and delays the action from the bully. The current response is a defensive posture that doesn’t provide any disincentive for the behavior. As Chinese, what punishment did I receive for harassing and activating my presence on the LaC. In domestic abuse this is what’s called pushing the boundaries and establishing a new normal. You slowly poke and prod a person until they become desensitized to your behavior and then you escalate to a more severe action. India is being abused and the population needs to internalize this. If we don’t, it is akin to continuing a domestic abuse relationship hoping the culprit will change their behavior. What ends up eventually happening is the person being abused ends up walking on egg shells.

The Chinese are stimulating our defensive measures to gain control over our narrative, foreign policy and restricting our sphere of influence. They will do this, start a social media campaign supporting their narrative and in back door meetings show Bhutan and Nepal that they abused India. They don’t need to win or even hold territory, they just need to destabilize our dominion over our sphere of influence to come out a winner. We are not poking or proding them on Taiwan or Hong Kong or Tibet or Xinjiang. So we are screwing ourselves by limiting how we respond.

Most of the meek responses I am hearing come sound like an excuse a wife makes for an abusive husband.

Oh I’m able to defend myself. Oh I made the situation difficult for him to hit me again.

It’s not, I cut ties with him and issued a restraining order while filing a criminal case for stalking.

The appropriate response needs to be cold, heartless and calculated if you want to fight an enemy like China. There needs to be long term goals established to punish them with the intent of restricting their sphere of influence. As relations change, they will continuously try to destabilize India to spur our trading relations. The best counter to this to keep them preoccupied with Hong Kong, Tibet or Taiwan and restrict their focus to the SCS and Eastern Provinces.
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Karna »

Sravan wrote:
khan wrote:
Because there isn’t much to get upset about, the Chinese tried to do something and are being pushed back. The Chinese objective was to block road construction - but now India will accelerate the road construction - with full security bandobast.

To get rid of the Chinese camps (if any are left), IA will now do a months long harassment strategy - which is part of protocol and has been done many times before. The Chinese will not just sit in there camps and take daily IA beatings for no reason.

The thing to watch out for is any further escalation beyond what we have seen - and I think IA is well prepared for it.
I humbly disagree. If you are content with a defensive strategy only, we will be punched a hundred times and let’s say we block 90, 10 punches still get through. That’s a guaranteed defeat. It only defers and delays the action from the bully. The current response is a defensive posture that doesn’t provide any disincentive for the behavior. As Chinese, what punishment did I receive for harassing and activating my presence on the LaC. In domestic abuse this is what’s called pushing the boundaries and establishing a new normal. You slowly poke and prod a person until they become desensitized to your behavior and then you escalate to a more severe action. India is being abused and the population needs to internalize this. If we don’t, it is akin to continuing a domestic abuse relationship hoping the culprit will change their behavior. What ends up eventually happening is the person being abused ends up walking on egg shells.

The Chinese are stimulating our defensive measures to gain control over our narrative, foreign policy and restricting our sphere of influence. They will do this, start a social media campaign supporting their narrative and in back door meetings show Bhutan and Nepal that they abused India. They don’t need to win or even hold territory, they just need to destabilize our dominion over our sphere of influence to come out a winner. We are not poking or proding them on Taiwan or Hong Kong or Tibet or Xinjiang. So we are screwing ourselves by limiting how we respond.

The appropriate response needs to be cold, heartless and calculated if you want to fight an enemy like China. There needs to be long term goals established to punish them with the intent of restricting their sphere of influence. As relations change, they will continuously try to destabilize India to spur our trading relations. The best counter to this to keep them preoccupied with Hong Kong, Tibet or Taiwan and restrict their focus to the SCS and Eastern Provinces.
What has not been discussed enough is what's the end game for cheen.

Doklham showed that we would react to any threat to our border security.
Kargil showed that we can remove intruders even if they are at heights.
We have even gone ahead and wedge ourself at Nepal China tri junction and holds adventageous position to make an intrusion into Tibet.
Am sure the last month events have been sanctioned by the CCP and is not a local incident.

Edit : Time to develop a defensive offensive for China
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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Mort Walker »

putnanja wrote:I am surprised by the number of people dhoti shivering and having zero confidence in our forces here in BR thread! With so much knowledge here, one would have expected better educated posts. instead, people are already doubting the govt, the armed forces, thinking we will fail as China's GDP is multiple times ours, will need US help, blah blah blah.

Please give credit to our battle hardened forces, who have seen action not just in varied geographies in the subcontinent but also in other places as part of UN contingent. Everyone knows how the Chinese peacekeepers cowered in their camp and didn't come out to fight with rebels in Africa.

Take a chill pill guys
Everyone here has confidence in the Indian armed forces. They have our respect and have faithfully protected over 1.3 billion from the hordes of barbarians waiting to murder, rape and loot India for over 73 years. What we don't have confidence in is the political leadership. Even this government which has done a lot in 6 years for defence preparedness, has still not sufficiently funded the MIC and provided sufficient strategic weapons to the armed forces of India. The fear is that the Indian armed forces will get into harm's way. People understand the motto of "When you go home, tell them of us and say, for your tomorrow, we gave our today", but the armed forces of India is a voluntary force made of citizens. Their tomorrow should be with the people of India and should not have to sacrifice their "today".
Sravan
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Posts: 230
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 15:15

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by Sravan »

Mort Walker wrote:
putnanja wrote:I am surprised by the number of people dhoti shivering and having zero confidence in our forces here in BR thread! With so much knowledge here, one would have expected better educated posts. instead, people are already doubting the govt, the armed forces, thinking we will fail as China's GDP is multiple times ours, will need US help, blah blah blah.

Please give credit to our battle hardened forces, who have seen action not just in varied geographies in the subcontinent but also in other places as part of UN contingent. Everyone knows how the Chinese peacekeepers cowered in their camp and didn't come out to fight with rebels in Africa.

Take a chill pill guys
Everyone here has confidence in the Indian armed forces. They have our respect and have faithfully protected over 1.3 billion from the hordes of barbarians waiting to murder, rape and loot India for over 73 years. What we don't have confidence in is the political leadership. Even this government which has done a lot in 6 years for defence preparedness, has still not sufficiently funded the MIC and provided sufficient strategic weapons to the armed forces of India. The fear is that the Indian armed forces will get into harm's way. People understand the motto of "When you go home, tell them of us and say, for your tomorrow, we gave our today", but the armed forces of India is a voluntary force made of citizens. Their tomorrow should be with the people of India and should not have to sacrifice their "today".
Once again. This is a typical domestic abuse response. You are trying to fix the situation and potentially making space for further abuse. Recognizing the relationship is beyond repair and taking your losses is the first step. Unless the CCP is out of power, India cannot have friendly relations or any meaningful relationship with China. We should internalize that, believe it and act on it. Otherwise we are ******. I'm glad to see some positive momentum from the government on this front. Trust me, overthrowing CCP is going to be in India's favor. You will return to the status quo, where Indian soft power influenced a huge dharmic population. That's the natural order of the universe and the time has come to impose our will.
Last edited by Sravan on 01 Jun 2020 22:27, edited 1 time in total.
ldev
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Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Post by ldev »

Karna wrote:Doklham showed that we would react to any threat to our border security.

And that is the problem. Reactive and not proactive as the following explains.

Ajai Shukla and Abjhijit Iyer Mitra are 2 extreme ends of a spectrum. Shukla says the sky is falling and China has invaded India. Iyer-Mitra says via this article that, at least in the Pangong Tso Lake area it was nothing more than a "drive by" done by China and now they have retreated/been pushed back. So nothing to see here, move on. It is business as usual. If that was indeed the case there would not be the massive mobilization by India. This article by Iyer-Mitra is about the Pangong Tso lake situation. Other areas such as Galwan and Hot Springs have not been covered as yet. So we will see.

However what is clear is that through good and bad times in the relationship with Xi and Modi having chai biskoot, China has remained unwavering in it's objectives and that is to assert control over territory that it feels belongs to it. Prior to Kargil, Indian soldiers used to patrol up to Finger 8 at the Pangong Tso Lake. And during the Kargil distraction, China built a road upto Finger 5. After that Indian soldiers have apparently been unable to patrol beyond that point. And now Chinese soldiers have intruded west of Finger 4, almost upto the ITBP camp. So China has gained control all the way upto Finger 4 and is now threatening India's control west of Finger 4. And realize this, that the Pangong Tso Lake is 135 kms from east to west. So China moving it's control from Finger 8 pre Kargil to Finger 4 is likely to be 35-50 kms of additional shoreline control. That is the degree of control that China has gained in Pangong Tso and it is still not satisfied but is pushing further west as the current confrontations show. China has been consistently proactive for the last 20+ years. India has been consistenly reactive.

Having said that I have no doubt that in the event of full scale border hostilities the Indian armed forces will be able to hold on to the border and could also make minor gains in territory, due to local superiority in numbers. But that is not a long term strategy. India has to impose costs on China elsewhere as has been repeated on this threat numerous times. Without those punitive costs elsewhere this border issue will fester and the problem is that China is the more consistent in it's border objectives. On the Indian side, public sentiment and support varies with how warm or cool the latest chai biskoot session is.
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