India Border Watch: Security and Operations

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Ganesh_S » 15 Oct 2014 22:00

Its very different. Besides terrorism, that TSP is hardly known for manufacturing/exporting anything else . Haven't they already been bailed out by IMF twice in 5 years to avert a balance of payment default.
I do agree that their politicians will not willingly go down a nuke path unless backed to the wall.


what wall and who are the strategist :rotfl:


IMF and its soft ***** is what TSP political/military mullahs cant forsake. If they could, the military mullahs would have taken over by now. In fact its their very own existence which is threatened.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 15 Oct 2014 23:00

deejay wrote:<SNIP>


deejay - does Mohanbari rings a bell to you?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 15 Oct 2014 23:07

@bhaskar_T The road pointed by green arrow. Zoom down using Google maps or earth and you'll even see a pretty big airbase. Plus, roads going in north south direction along valleys towards MacMahon Line.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_20292 » 15 Oct 2014 23:36

muraliravi wrote:
Pakis dont have any nukes that work, this was proven during the chagai test and the PU sample that was picked up. They detonated chinese loans after the 1st failure. Everything else is just hawa.


Some cited articles for this data?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby deejay » 16 Oct 2014 05:51

rohitvats wrote:
deejay wrote:<SNIP>


deejay - does Mohanbari rings a bell to you?


Yup, was posted there. My first Unit. :D

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2014 06:49

Rohitvats, Have we updated the BSF page? Am getting emails asking the status!!!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 16 Oct 2014 06:53

deejay wrote: deejay - does Mohanbari rings a bell to you?
Yup, was posted there. My first Unit. :D


Your familiarity with all those ALG/DZ and communication axis in the region made me think so; a cousin served in the army across the fence in air maintenance unit. Had visited the location in mid 90s. Had a nice tour of Mi-8. Missed An-32 and Mig-27 in Chabua, though.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 16 Oct 2014 06:54

ramana wrote:Rohitvats, Have we updated the BSF page? Am getting emails asking the status!!!


Nope. Need to have a look.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Victor » 16 Oct 2014 08:00

krishnan wrote:..what about the nuke fall out

Ya, what about it? Everyone born after 1945 has Strontium in their bones, something that never happened before and we're doing reasonably OK. It's all a matter of balance--how much are we willing to give up in order to be rid of pakis forever? Or mosquitoes for that matter?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Victor » 16 Oct 2014 08:56

The East-West road in AP along McMahon line will for the most part be built above the treeline on far more sturdy, rocky, frozen and solid ground than the existing roads that are mostly in the valleys and loose-soil lower hillsides. It is a far more doable project for sure but it is a huge undertaking for us. Sad to say, I have zero faith that BRO will be able to do it at all, let alone on time. The best thing would be to float an international tender, form JVs with two or three winning bidders who will share the entire length and also keep a tight leash on each other. It will be interesting to see what key China would bleat in if a Singapore, Japanese and Korean firm were chosen.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby deejay » 16 Oct 2014 09:58

Victor wrote:The East-West road in AP along McMahon line will for the most part be built above the treeline on far more sturdy, rocky, frozen and solid ground than the existing roads that are mostly in the valleys and loose-soil lower hillsides. It is a far more doable project for sure but it is a huge undertaking for us....


My understanding was that Himalayas are unstable, top or bottom. Plus not clear through this that the road is above the snow line. IMO, it will mostly have to be below it.


Victor wrote: Sad to say, I have zero faith that BRO will be able to do it at all, let alone on time. ...


Victor ji, I presume you know BRO very well to say such a thing.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pushkar.bhat » 16 Oct 2014 12:37

deejay wrote:
Victor wrote:The East-West road in AP along McMahon line will for the most part be built above the treeline on far more sturdy, rocky, frozen and solid ground than the existing roads that are mostly in the valleys and loose-soil lower hillsides. It is a far more doable project for sure but it is a huge undertaking for us....


My understanding was that Himalayas are unstable, top or bottom. Plus not clear through this that the road is above the snow line. IMO, it will mostly have to be below it.


Victor wrote: Sad to say, I have zero faith that BRO will be able to do it at all, let alone on time. ...


Victor ji, I presume you know BRO very well to say such a thing.


Deejay loved the last part :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Prabu » 16 Oct 2014 14:30


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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rakall » 16 Oct 2014 20:07

from Siachen pioneers !!!

Do we need that Arunachal road at all?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rahul M » 16 Oct 2014 20:32

^^^
we dont need siachen either right ?

============
deejay wrote:^^^ I am talking of all valleys except TAWANG axis. This included the Daporijo -Nacho- Taksing route; Along - Inkiong-Mechuka and Inkiong-Tuting route; Anini - Malinye - Malinye route; etc. Hayuliang to Kibitoo metal road existed back then. Hayuliang - Chaklagaon axis construction was started.

I believe, a study by China Study Group in the 90's was part of the reason for this. Even the new road approved was discussed then but not attempted (speaking from memory only).

thanks.

there's also the TAP highway work on which is going on in earnest. so, if this is done we would have 2 sets of E-W connecting roads in AP itself !

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby darshhan » 16 Oct 2014 20:57

The best way to execute the Project for this Pan Arunachal Highway would be to hand the contracts on Cost Plus basis rather than competitive bidding where L1 company takes the contract.

The primary reason being that the competitive bidding scene in India has degenerated like anything and is now a mess. Both the Contractors(including known names) and the clients are to blame.

Another suggestion would be to identify loss making companies and keep them out of race even if they are very big players in construction. It would be a disaster for this project if companies like Gammon, IVRCL, and even HCC are considered for this project. The project will be raped.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Rahul M » 16 Oct 2014 21:17

gammon has done some fine work in AP.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby chaanakya » 18 Oct 2014 15:54

Pakistan army violates ceasefire again along International Border, LoC


Pakistani troops violated the ceasefire twice by firing on forward posts along the LoC and International Border in Poonch and Jammu districts, drawing retaliation from the Army.

There have been four ceasefire violations along the IB and LoC in Jammu and Poonch districts during the past over 24 hours.

"Pakistani troops violated the ceasefire and resorted to small arms and automatic weapons firing on Indian posts along the LoC in Hamirpur sector of Poonch district around 8pm Friday night, a senior Army officer said today.


Troops gave a befitting reply to the Pakistani firing, resulting in exchanges which continued till 9.20pm.

There was no loss of life or injury to anyone in the firing.

So they are down to small arms and automatic weapons firing. What next throwing stones??

meanwhile on the west side of their border eyeranians are resoting to mortar fires. Double whammy. When will they run to baby moon.

Iranian border guards fire mortar shells inside Pakistani territory


Yawn reports

QUETTA: Iranian border guards on Saturday fired three mortar shells in Mashkail, Pakistan's bordering town with Iran, officials said.

A security official who requested anonymity told Dawn that mortar shells fired by Iranian guards landed in deserted areas close to the sparsely populated Balochistan's Mashkail town.

"The mortar shell attack caused panic among the people," the official said, adding that Frontier Corps (FC) and Levies personnel reached the spot and security was tightened around the border.


No casualty was reported in the attack, the official added.

Today's shelling came hours after a junior officer of the FC was killed in an attack by Iranian border forces in Mand area of Balochistan's Kech district. Four FC personnel were injured
.

Also read: Pakistan asks Iran not to ‘externalise’ its problems


Moreover, the Balochistan government demanded that the centre take up the issue of continued border violations by Iranian border guards with the Iranian foreign office.

Jan Muhammad Buledi, spokesman for the Balochistan government, stated that Iran had been violating Pakistani territory and attacking civilians for the past three days. Buledi has demanded Islamabad to take up this issue with the Iranian foreign office and lodge a formal protest in this regard.

Earlier on Friday, the Iranian border guards had stormed inside the Mand area of Balochistan and had attacked a vehicle of Frontier Corps, killing one soldier and injuring three others.


Khan Wasay, a spokesman for FC troops in Balochistan, told Dawn that at least 30 Iranian border guards had entered into Pakistan's bordering town of Nokundi and made the residents hostage for six hours.

"We have sent a formal letter to Islamabad regarding Iranian intervention and violation," Akbar Hussain Durrani, Secretary Home and Tribal Affairs Department Balochistan told Dawn.

Durrani said the provincial government had taken up the matter seriously and urged the capital to raise this issue with Tehran.


Meanwhile Pakis plea to eyeranians

SLAMABAD: The Foreign Office asked Iran on Friday not to ‘externalise’ its problems, but focus on fighting militancy at home.

“It is not helpful to externalise problems. We need to focus on eliminating terrorism from our countries,” Foreign Office spokesperson Tasnim Aslam said at the weekly media briefing.


She was responding to Iranian threat of hot pursuit of militants allegedly launching cross-border attacks on Iran’s border posts from their sanctuaries in Balochistan province of Pakistan.


<snip>

“There may be cross-border activities or other transnational crimes like narcotic and drug trafficking,” she said. “We believe that if Iran has evidence that elements from Pakistan are involved in activities against Iran, they should share it with us”.

The spokesperson asked Tehran to use the border management committee of the two countries for investigating the allegations.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby krishnan » 18 Oct 2014 17:20

afghans should join the fun too :mrgreen:

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby vishvak » 18 Oct 2014 17:34

Haha. The dead weight pakis were given much more than trivial importance that the pakis deserve by Aman ka tamasha brigade. At this point of time, we should be talking about Russia, China, Iran, Japan, Australia and also our friends in SAARC more than failed fragments of region infested with terror and polio.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby pankajs » 18 Oct 2014 18:58

The usual suspects have gone from too little response to much response in the span of a week.

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/jammu-and- ... 96119.html
Intense cross-border firing in J&K has undermined the fragile ceasefire pact of 2003
An air of disbelief surrounds some of the most hallowed offices of South Block and North Block, their occupants struggling to come to terms with the five day blitzkrieg against Pakistan on the 198-km-long international border in Jammu and Kashmir. These are officials manning key ministries of home, defence and external affairs and in such situations, they are usually in the thick of things, advising and aiding their political leadership in making the right calls. But the past week took them by surprise-first, all instructions came directly from the Prime Minister's Office; second, there was no meeting of secretaries or the Cabinet Committee on Security to take stock of the situation; and finally, no assessment of the consequences in case the tit-for-tat violence spiralled out of control.

This was new and different. Just like the fact that while India and Pakistan were trading mortar fire on the border in the first week of October, Shahryar Khan, Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's preference for the back-channel engagement with New Delhi, was here in his capacity as Pakistan Cricket Board chairman on a mission to convince India to at least start sending its other teams such as the under-19 team to play in Pakistan. But more importantly, during his stay, he had no meeting on the margins with any top-ranking Indian official, confirming the widely-held impression in Pakistan that India with Narendra Modi as prime minister is in no mood to resume dialogue for the moment.

The PM, Government insiders explained, is keen to underline the message that India has changed and so has its threshold levels with Pakistan. For all practical purposes, sources said, the ceasefire of 2003 has been under stress since 2010 and while the previous government sought to deal with violations by way of localised responses, the Modi regime seems to have adopted a policy of disproportionate response.

In the latest episode, going by the claims of the Border Security Force (BSF), the first rounds were fired on the international border in the RS Pura sector on October 2, which local commandants felt was a reaction to India's victory in the hockey finals against Pakistan at the Asian Games in Incheon (see timeline). The next day, a girl died on the Indian side due to shelling on the Line of Control (LoC) in Poonch sector, manned by the Army which is in-charge of defences along the LoC. This was followed by more firing in RS Pura and Arnia sectors of the international border. Thereafter, an Indian soldier from Mahar regiment was killed in an IED blast on the LoC, suspected to be planted by Pakistani militants.

While both killings happened on the LoC, it was not the Army but the BSF, which reports to the home ministry, that retaliated by opening fire in all four sectors of the international border from Akhnoor to Hiranagar. Instructions, sources said, went out from National Security Adviser Ajit Doval who was in direct touch with BSF Director General D.K. Pathak and other commanders. Over the next five days, the BSF fired more than 10,000 mortar shells, countless rounds of small ammunition, leading to an unprecedented slugfest on a border stretch that had witnessed little until then. The overall damage: eight civilians killed, many injured, over 25,000 displaced and hundreds of houses damaged. The official toll on the Pakistani side is 12 civilians dead and about a hundred injured, with scores of villages evacuated.

"The unwritten rule we follow in these areas is that if they fire one round, we fill fire three or five," says E.N. Ram Mohan, a former chief of BSF. "But earlier this was usually restricted to LMGs (light machine guns) and MMGs (medium machine guns). Now it's even mortars, which means 5,000 metres range and that endangers civilian lives. And civilians dying like this is absurd, absolutely absurd."

Incidentally, the flare-up came at the height of campaigning for Assembly elections in Maharashtra and Haryana, allowing Modi to drive home his point in public at a rally in Maharashtra on October 9. The implications, however, go beyond the 5.5-km mortar range that villagers are now assiduously keeping out of. They go, perhaps, a few hundred kilometres further west into a reluctant, high attrition battle being fought by the Pakistan Army with its own people in north Waziristan in an operation being termed as the 'Final Blow'.

A flare-up on the Indian front provides justification to redeploy troops along the Kashmir border, a move that will only increase tensions and attract international attention to the Kashmir issue.

Fire and Brimstone

Clad in a white tracksuit, blue turban neatly in place and a cup of tea in hand, SPS Sandhu is a happy man at the hotly contested BSF annual athletics meet in Jammu's Paloura Camp. For a man central to the most intense cross-border firing by India in a decade, the BSF Commandant looks oddly calm, smiling even as he explains that his "boys" are not sweating it out in the field but are deployed at forward posts barely 25 km away in RS Pura sector.

"I am very proud. Nobody, not even the Indian Army, has fired as much as we have into Pakistan since the 1971 war. There were no restrictions this time and we kept on firing. Even the Army cannot boast of so much. At least no Army infantry battalion has fired more mortars."

But there are serious questions on ground tactics. For instance, after a week-long duel, there is only one visible sign of the cross-border mortar exchange at the BSF's Abdullia border outpost in RS Pura. On October 8, two days after the civilian deaths, one Pakistani mortar shell found its way into the camp, bounced off a shed that houses generators and exploded on the ground. What remains now is a pockmarked wall with no damage to any assets at the post.

As it now emerges, the BSF fired hundreds of mortars from Abdullia but by shifting positions along the populated areas of the international border, even taking up positions near the three villages that surround it. As a result, the return fire from their 19 Chenab Rangers was in the direction of these villages, causing significant damage besides the fact that the inhabitants had to flee overnight.

But BSF men are pleased with the damage they could inflict on the Pakistani side, particularly on the Chaprar forward position, which is just 800 metres from the Indian post. Unlike the BSF, the Army has responded with precise, direct fire aimed at damaging military infrastructure. "We caused a lot of damage, especially to their winter stocking. But targets were all military," a top officer said. Also, the Army indulged in some old-fashioned posturing with the Rajouri-based 25 infantry Division carrying out a routine exercise for the defence of Poonch and Rajouri. "It was a regular exercise, nothing that would be the cause of any alarm," said Lt-General K.H. Singh, Commander of 16 Corps. All this is, incidentally, in keeping with what the Army often loosely terms as "LoC dynamics".

In fact, even as the two sides exchanged intermittent fire in pockets, the usual exchange of sweets on the occasion of Eid on October 6 took place at the Chakan Da Bag crossing in Poonch. "On Eid, the Pakistani side opened unprovoked fire in the morning and then blamed us for hurting religious sentiments. Still, after this, we exchanged sweets to keep up the tradition," said Lt-Gen Singh.

But on the same day, the gates at the BSF-Rangers crossing down south remained closed.

Pakistan policy in tatters

This was just after the 26/11 Mumbai attack. US President George W. Bush, fearing a conflict between the nuclear neighbours, called for an urgent meeting which included US ambassadors from India and Pakistan. He just had one question. "What can we do to help India? Because the last time something like this happened to us (9/11), we went to war." From thereon began a slew of steps that created the first authentic dossier of information, nailing the fact that Pakistan was behind the carnage. Armed with irrefutable evidence, India reached out to the world and built diplomatic pressure on Pakistan, forcing it to conduct investigations that led to arrests and a trial.

The current flare-up is no comparison but Pakistan has resorted to similar tactics, sending special envoys to five permanent members of the UN Security Council and calling in key members of the diplomatic corps in Islamabad to build a case against India. Also, at home, all factions of Pakistan's fractured polity have now united on this issue.

This time too, New Delhi has the shoe on the other foot. While officials point out that no country has so far come forward in support of Pakistan, sources said the fact is that India has had to alert its Permanent Mission at the UN to reach out to other member states to counter Pakistan's diplomatic offensive. It is learnt that key Indian missions have also been pressed into action to explain the situation and the continuous provocation by Pakistani forces over the last several months.

India's diplomatic counter-offensive targets the Pakistan Army, identifying it as the chief provocateur and holding its leadership responsible for undermining Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and the peace process. However, former Indian Army chief General V.P. Malik feels Indian diplomats have their task cut out.

"We have a significant population on the international border. On this count, international pressure is likely to increase and this is now becoming a diplomatic challenge. Diplomacy has to work overtime to ensure that we don't come under pressure from the international community," Malik told India Today.

The last time Pakistan successfully rachetted up international pressure at the UN was when P.V. Narasimha Rao was prime minister. It pushed militants into Kashmir on the one hand and attacked India on alleged human rights violations by the army in the Valley. This also prompted Rao to set up the National Human Rights Commission. Incidentally, Sharif was PM then too.

But the problem for New Delhi is that the more it goes down this line, it may have just the opposite effect in Pakistan, even easing the pressure on terror groups such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba. Another fallout has been a heightened threat scenario ahead of Diwali. Intelligence agencies are making assessments about a possible Pakistani retaliation in the form of a terror attack. Already, information has been circulated that the recent attempt by terrorists to take control of a Pakistan Navy frigate could have been an effort to carry out an attack on the Indian coast.

Clearly, a dangerous game has unfolded with uncertain consequences, one which is bound to test the Modi Government's nerve.

Prickly Path

A lot was on the agenda of possibilities when Sharif came for Modi's swearing-in. The first among them was a range of economic decisions by Pakistan to ease trade with India. This was to be followed by a serious effort on the Kashmir dispute, where the Pakistani PM had hoped for strong support from his Indian counterpart in a bid to push the peace process forward despite resistance from the Pakistan Army. But all of this came to a grinding halt after India cancelled foreign secretary-level talks. The two leaders also did not meet in New York.

"We seem to have got into this extraordinary situation where we are following a tit-for-tat policy. This is what the Pakistani army wants and we are falling into this trap. There is a pattern to this," says Satyabrata Pal, who was India's envoy to Pakistan during the 26/11 attack. "Each time there is an attempt for a rapprochement, the Pakistani army ups the ante. It is against talks and would want the process to fall apart and such escalation does not help."

With no back-channel at play and bilateral interaction at a minimum, the focus is now on the upcoming SAARC summit in Kathmandu in November, where Modi and Sharif will have an opportunity to meet. In the six months between New Delhi and Kathmandu, the agenda would have undergone a dramatic transformation. From breaking new ground, the two leaders, if they meet, will have to build a new consensus on holding fire on the borders.

For the moment, however, there is no word on a meeting, except official suggestions which, insiders said, will have to be weighed against domestic political considerations and Modi's own image as a hardliner. And that, in a way, sums up the change in New Delhi, where decisions on Pakistan are more political than strategic.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Austin » 18 Oct 2014 19:07

"Modi Government policy on firing from across the border is to give Pakistan a befitting reply"


"They provoked us, we retaliated"
Interview with Border Security Force chief D.K. Pathak

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby NRao » 18 Oct 2014 19:20

IMHO, India has to separate the Pakistani civies from the Services. Call one the not-so-bad-guys and the other out-right-bad-guys - as in unacceptable to civic societies. Imply that the PA is an extension of ISIS, etc, that they host AQ units embedded within (which they do - that would not be a lie).

And, move from there.

But, if TSP is not taken apart this silly argument that India is playing into the Paki Army game plan will always be played out.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Virupaksha » 18 Oct 2014 20:16

NRao,

You might not remember this but there was pressure in some areas from civilians on army not to push terrorists from their areas. This was because of fear of Indian retaliation.

Their hideouts are bang in the middle of civilian areas and these outside terrorists provide an increase in business for the locals.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby NRao » 18 Oct 2014 20:43

Virupaksha,

No, I was not aware of that development (been a while sicne I read anything), but that is a very interesting angle. Thx.

My feel is that Ajit Doval, with his background, will stir this pot - got to expect that. Another aspect: covert ops, his specialization, will be revived. Heck even the jihadis have been into it for eons and India keep backing off with some silly thing called CBMs (whose confidence I wonder?). This in no way should be considered escalatory - it is to make it a even playing field. IF you can send your bad guys, we will send our good guys. Nothing wrong with that.

For sure this is a slippery slope, but if one were to cover all bases then it should be fine. Both sides will pay a steeper price.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 18 Oct 2014 21:15

I think dragging Ajit Doval's past experience is a red herring and leads to speculation.. We should concentrate on his current response which is outstanding.

Rohitvats any feedback or scuttle butt on the accuracy of mortar fire by BSF? Looks like 19 terrorist camps were destroyed per the Army Chief.

Also good job of countering lifafa aman ki tamsha journalists.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 18 Oct 2014 23:06

India Today is now leading the chakka dance to protect Pakistans interests. Wonder why.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby rohitvats » 18 Oct 2014 23:51

ramana wrote:I think dragging Ajit Doval's past experience is a red herring and leads to speculation.. We should concentrate on his current response which is outstanding.

Rohitvats any feedback or scuttle butt on the accuracy of mortar fire by BSF? Looks like 19 terrorist camps were destroyed per the Army Chief. Also good job of countering lifafa aman ki tamsha journalists.


ramana - it is not possible to comment on the terrorist infrastructure or terrorist camp bit based on study of open sources. Also, we don't know what the term means. Army or BSF may well have a definition different from our assumption.

Having said that - ability to hit 4-5 km deep in enemy territory using mortar is pretty good capability to have. BSF could have taken out launch pads and infrastructure created for militants before sending them across the IB. These are likely to be housed close to/with the Pakistan Ranger unit(s) responsible for a particular sector.

And the key advantages of this disproportionate counter-assault to me are as follows:

1. Uninhibited use of mortar either to counter mortar fire from Pakistan or to increase the tempo by countering their LMG/HMG fire with mortar fire. The range of the weapon means that crew can target enemy positions in a wide arc and depth from a central fire position.

2. WILLINGNESS and ability to hit targets in depth - very important point. The mortar fire does not seem to have been restricted to those posts/areas from where fire was being directed at Indians. It seems to have been targeted at all possible military targets within range. Basically, nothing in a given range is safe. And this to me is a big development - no more gentlemanly game of fencing!

3. Point 2 above means that BSF was targeting everything - from Ranger admin areas to infrastructure meant to harbor and launch militants. LMG/HMG being restricted to LOS would not be able to do this. But mortars can. Coupled with willingness to use them.

Point 2 and 3 taken together along with heavy volume of fire could explain what Pakistan Ranger DG said - 'it is akin to a war'. Basically, there were no niceties from Indian side this time. Disproportionate refers to both volume of counter-fire as well as nature of targets which were targeted and obliterated.

Take an example - India Today article says 10,000 mortar rounds were fired in 5 days. That is an average of 2,000 rounds/day. And from the news reports available, the action was happening in a limited sector on IB. My guess is that pretty high density bombardment happened over specific areas. Not your spray and pray variety.

This is my understanding so far.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Anand K » 19 Oct 2014 00:16

Saturation fire of mortars (set to regular/delayed detonation?) can destroy RCC structures, right? I mean, given mortar CEP and all that. Might account for the 2,000/day number. What's the structure of a BSF mortar platoon and what kind of support/resupply elements do they have? The logistics of all this is impressive, no? I mean, its approx. 1.5 rounds/min rate and one should consider displacement, reload, mortar fire rate and all that!

BTW, I hope we will soon see drone feeds of low airburst mortars blessing a crew of fresh grads from Aabpara in Haji Pir.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Anujan » 19 Oct 2014 01:32

Ramana

Mortar fire accuracy can be improved extraordinarily if the crew trains with spotters who radio back and/or if there are UAVs that can report back on the impact point. I read somewhere about how the accuracy and lethality of mortar crews and artillery have gone up many times if they learn to coordinate well with UAVs. I dont know if there is any open source literature on BSF inducting UAVs and training mortar crews to use them.

Do we have any direct fire weapons like Mk-19 launchers inducted in numbers?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2014 01:50

I am fairly certain two things happened in parallel. BSF doing heavy mortaring with regular spotters from their own camps and IA input, and IA also chipping in hammering away at Pak Army infra and terror launchpads. The first shocked the Paks, the second really hurt their preparedness (in the short term). Long story short, if the Modi govt fixes the dysfunctional state of arty and ammo (via privatization of both guns and ammo) and also gets UAVs inducted in bulk, Pak is in for a very very tough time. The main thing now is to go heavily after their internal networks in India, the ISIs, in the usual suspects + the journo/track-2 sorts who leak info to these fellows and act against Indian interests. ISI modules are busted, and dissuasive firepower inducted, and Pak will have to sit and gnash its teeth, despite the best wishes of the WKK crowd who want Pakistan to be as strong as India. That group considers a strong Pak as their best bet to keep "majoritarianism" in India at bay and vociferously oppose any attempt by India to cut Pak down to size. It is this cabal the GOI now has to defang.
Last edited by Karan M on 19 Oct 2014 01:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby tsarkar » 19 Oct 2014 01:56

pankajs wrote:http://m.indiatoday.in/story/jammu-and-kashmir-ceasefire-pact-2003-cross-broder-firing/1/396119.html
An air of disbelief surrounds some of the most hallowed offices of South Block and North Block, their occupants struggling to come to terms with the five day blitzkrieg against Pakistan on the 198-km-long international border in Jammu and Kashmir. These are officials manning key ministries of home, defence and external affairs and in such situations, they are usually in the thick of things, advising and aiding their political leadership in making the right calls. But the past week took them by surprise-first, all instructions came directly from the Prime Minister's Office; second, there was no meeting of secretaries or the Cabinet Committee on Security to take stock of the situation; and finally, no assessment of the consequences in case the tit-for-tat violence spiralled out of control.


Because of this direction from the top, there is a remarkable improvement in morale at all levels. The earlier mechanism of officials from multiple ministries, with scant understanding of military matters, (despite IFS/IAS/IPS attending DSSC & other forum to appreciate military strategy), trying to arrive at a consensus policy resulted in hazy & obfuscated direction to military leaders who felt frustrated.

Even during Op Parakram, when military leaders asked for direction, ABV & LKA were indecisive. When one strike corps commander executed advantageous manoeuvers, U S Ambassador Robert Blackwell went to LKA with satellite images and the Corps Commander was reprimanded.

While Pakistan has better artillery courtesy US, India has higher numbers. Historically our humble 105 mm Field Guns have caused immense Pakistani casualties in such skirmishes. I am given to understand that even at Kargil, the largest cause of Pakistani casualties was Artillery. I am also given to understand that even the British & US Armies operate this gun.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2014 01:59

ABV was considered a peacenik by JN Dixit who was very dismissive of his tendency to try and make peace with Pak.
The new Govt no longer has any senior folks born or influenced by Pak.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 19 Oct 2014 03:06

http://freepressjournal.in/army-razes-1 ... ps-in-pok/

- IA Chief says 19 terrorist camps destroyed.
- ~2000 terrorists waiting in the wings to cross over

I think about 200 jihadis in border camps.

Anujan et al that is why I wanted the BSF page to be updated. Its taken down now.


Must be very Kalidasa mode to locate so many folks near mortar range!

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2014 03:21

IA calls its mortars M-130, FH-77B and 105mm LFG. They would have used these mortars to mortar the PA. Very peculiar naming convention.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby khan » 19 Oct 2014 03:54

ramana wrote:http://freepressjournal.in/army-razes-19-terrorist-camps-in-pok/

- IA Chief says 19 terrorist camps destroyed.
- ~2000 terrorists waiting in the wings to cross over

I think about 200 jihadis in border camps.

Anujan et al that is why I wanted the BSF page to be updated. Its taken down now.


Must be very Kalidasa mode to locate so many folks near mortar range!


Is this in response to the latest "ceasefire" violations or new details trickling out of the massive retaliation that was done a couple of weeks ago?

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Oct 2014 04:02

Karan M wrote:ABV was considered a peacenik by JN Dixit who was very dismissive of his tendency to try and make peace with Pak.
The new Govt no longer has any senior folks born or influenced by Pak.


+1

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby ramana » 19 Oct 2014 05:12

khan,
latest Dusshera/EID festivities.

All BSF web page:

http://bsf.nic.in/

Jammu sector:

http://jmu.bsf.gov.in/

Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Security_Force

Lots of questions answered.

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby jamwal » 19 Oct 2014 16:45

http://freepressjournal.in/army-razes-1 ... ps-in-pok/
Army razes 19 terrorist camps in PoK
— By FPJ Bureau, October 18, 2014 12:03 am
New Delhi : The army has destroyed 19 terrorist camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) while retaliating to unprovoked firing on civilians in Jammu and Kashmir by Pakistan forces.

This was disclosed in a report submitted to Defence Minister Arun Jaitley by General Dalbir Singh Suhag.

The report says there were more than 2,000 terrorists waiting in camps on the LoC to cross over and some of them were killed in the army action. Some of the terror camps were close to Pakistan army check posts and several of them were also damaged.

Truce violated again Meanwhile, Pakistani troops violated the ceasefire twice on Friday LoC in Poonch district, inviting retaliation from the Army, PTI reports.

“There was small arms and automatic weapons firing by Pakistani troops on Indian posts along the LoC in Hamirpur sector of Poonch district,’’ a senior Army officer said. There was no loss of life.


:|

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Re: India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Postby member_28797 » 19 Oct 2014 21:45

jamwal wrote:http://freepressjournal.in/army-razes-19-terrorist-camps-in-pok/
Army razes 19 terrorist camps in PoK
— By FPJ Bureau, October 18, 2014 12:03 am
New Delhi : The army has destroyed 19 terrorist camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) while retaliating to unprovoked firing on civilians in Jammu and Kashmir by Pakistan forces.

This was disclosed in a report submitted to Defence Minister Arun Jaitley by General Dalbir Singh Suhag.

The report says there were more than 2,000 terrorists waiting in camps on the LoC to cross over and some of them were killed in the army action. Some of the terror camps were close to Pakistan army check posts and several of them were also damaged.

Truce violated again Meanwhile, Pakistani troops violated the ceasefire twice on Friday LoC in Poonch district, inviting retaliation from the Army, PTI reports.

“There was small arms and automatic weapons firing by Pakistani troops on Indian posts along the LoC in Hamirpur sector of Poonch district,’’ a senior Army officer said. There was no loss of life.


:|


pukis aren't stopping ceasefire violations. It's a good enough reason to go all the way to POK and take it back. It is our land.


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