General Indian Military News & Discussions

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Shameek » 15 Jan 2016 08:56

Of course I can't compare with NDA standards but my school (also in Poona) used to have huge a PT area and two ex army PT instructors who imagined that they were training recruits for the Maratha Light Infantry regiment.

OT - Shiv saar, would you mind if I asked which school in Poona?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Shameek » 15 Jan 2016 09:05

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu2D1r80XLg

The El Chapo raid. Everyone who complains about CT or Search operations should take a look at this and compare with the glorified versions in movies. In less than a minute there is one injury. Just shows how intense these operations are when you are searching for unknown numbers of hidden enemies that are shooting back.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby ramana » 23 Mar 2016 22:18

We often hear about aircraft design basics but get no where.

Here is a Virginia Tech course on aircraft design and would be good to read for members so they get an idea of what it takes to design aircraft. We can have informed discussions.

http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/SD1VGs.html

and

Information for Aircraft Design:


http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/SD1.html

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby shiv » 06 Apr 2016 06:16

Shameek wrote:
Of course I can't compare with NDA standards but my school (also in Poona) used to have huge a PT area and two ex army PT instructors who imagined that they were training recruits for the Maratha Light Infantry regiment.

OT - Shiv saar, would you mind if I asked which school in Poona?

Sorry - late reply. Bishop's. Mind you this was many decades ago. The school itself was started in 1864 specifically for children of Brit army officers.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Apr 2016 06:46

M Joshi wrote:Guys, is there a thread in Military forum to track all the procurement order by Armed forces? If not I was thinking we may add one. It can be a no-discussion thread like the Achievement thread in Strat forum & we can track all the defence procurement category wise (for example, Naval, Misslies, Army, Air Force, Para Forces, itiyadi). All orders given to Indian PSUs & Pvt. companies can also be seen & we can see the progress of Indian companies in Indian Defence procurement. An admin can edit & fill entries on the 1st post of the thread as the procurement progresses & other members can contribute with new posts. I'm not able to find such portal anywhere on the net & not just on BR. BR should take initiative on this, & I request a learned member to go ahead have the 1st post. If the admin so requires, we may all together pitch in & make a format for the 1st post which will have consolidated data.


There is a 'Military Acquisitions' Thread. Maybe you can build and place a table in its first post.

Or you can go ahead and start a new thread.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 06 Apr 2016 19:59

The termites have invaded everywhere. Need a complete cleaning of the stables and incremental reform - the chosen method is probably too little and maybe too late.

Modus operandi of payoffs to the military
The Panama Papers leaked by a root source, apparently for altruistic reasons, has tarred a lot of public figures, including the baritone-voiced Amitabh Bachan, who had set himself up in recent years as spokesman for Gujrat Tourism garbed in the toga of national pride (and is now reduced to explaining, as if this has an iota of credence, that his name was perhaps misused by Panama-registered shipping companies, etc. since 1993! and, contrarily, that it revealed no illegality!).

The more interesting sidebar story (http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... ian-firms/) related to the system of payoffs to the Indian military, in the Panamanian case, to officers in the IAF and Indian Navy, by the Italian firm, Elettronica SpA, peddling elint (electronic intelligence) equipment, radar warning receivers, laser warning receivers/missile warning systems, electronic support systems (for helos), and self-protection jammers. The commissions range mostly in double figures from 13% to 17% of the deal amount for basically spares supply and servicing contracts. Thus, a top-end 17% commission for just one 1996 deal totaled 112,399 Euros or approx Rs 85.5 lakhs (at today’s conversion rate) for distribution by the Indian agent to corrupt Indian militarymen. Any delays in delivery that draw penalties result in the penalty sums being deducted from the commissions disbursed. And if the supplier is ever caught in this nefarious payoffs scheme, it invariably responds by brazening it out with statements, to wit by Elettronica SpA, that it “rejects any wrong or illegal practice and can adhere to facts…”, etc.!

Indian arms agents operate on retainer plus basis and Elettronica SpA is a relatively small firm. There are as many as 300-odd foreign arms companies active in the New Delhi circles, the majors with more than a single company representative presence to further their interests. The bulk of these up-front commissions, according to informed persons, are for disbursal to officers in the procurement loops in the three armed services and to officials in MOD, with the registered or unregistered agents being paid off through separate channels.

While rules require arms agents to register with GOI, these are often flouted, so there’s only minimal accountability. Moreover, because the payoffs process is necessarily secretive, just about every minor and major arms vendor has Panamanian-kind of offshore instruments to channel payoffs that are impossibly difficult to trace and their activities just as difficult to track, and well nigh impossible to bring to book. It is a system tailor-made for uniformed and civilian staffers in the procurement process to help themselves with payment — their choice — in cash or kind. So the Panama Papers have uncovered only a small part of the corruption system — the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

This is precisely why I have been maintaining over the years that the armed services which do not admit to the taint of corruption, are about as soiled as the politicians and bureaucrats. Just visit the residences services chiefs build for themselves to get an idea. I know only of one retired service chief who survives on his pension income — Vishnu Bhagwat. He lives frugally in a two room apartment in Colaba. Recall, he was the naval chief dismissed by the socialist defence minister, George Fernandes, in Vajpayee’s govt in 1996, and who followed in the footsteps of ADM Ronnie Periera. The day after his retirement, Periera took to a bicycle coz’ he admitted he couldn’t afford a car. He finally upgraded his conveyance, I am told, to a scooter.

Corruption — the fundamental weakness and historic failing of South Asian societies is the principal cause of internal insecurity and why countries of the subcontinent will always remain vulnerable. It is also one of the main reasons why India will never become a great power, because there’ll always be people within the policy establishment and in the system who’ll do a foreign country’s or an adversary’s bidding for a price.


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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 06 Apr 2016 20:10

another usual alarmist article from BK. the salary and pension of a service chief isn't so low that all you can afford is a 2 room flat in the suburbs and a scooter.

anyway, I am pretty sure many ex chiefs lead simple lives. I know of at least one retd COAS who still drives a 1990's maruti 800.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 06 Apr 2016 21:47

So, you believe MoD and defense personnel in procurement are not as heavily corrupt as made out to be? BTW: The mismatch between living expenses and salary/pensions was more acute, until the sixth pay commission. Also with the Maruti 800 example from the 90's, you are proving his point - scooter or not!

I can only go by anecdotal experience from people I know and everyone from the vendor community, who has dealt with defense procurement both sundry and arms related vouch that without corruption there is a clear no go. When a COAS reports that he was openly asked to take a bribe (VKS Affair) and that gentleman was head of defense intelligence, and the RM just sits on it, one has to presume things are pretty stark.

PS: I realize this is not a topic that inspires confidence but the question is, is it true?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 06 Apr 2016 22:29

no one denies the massive corruption in military procurement but to tar all army officers with the same brush, including all chiefs except two carefully chosen examples is entirely uncalled for. the article has unfortunately nothing worthwhile to add the discourse except a lot of self pity and general bad mouthing of forces' officers.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 06 Apr 2016 23:45

I do not think, BK meant most or all are corrupt by those examples. He is trying to make a larger point that it is all pervading and goes to the very top, ACM Tyagi being the latest known example. But, we can disagree on the degree to which BK is alluding.

What can be done?

We have a general lack of scrutiny in our basic constitutional structure. In mature democracies, eventually the accountability is with the peoples representatives. Even if we leave the issue of the quality of our representatives aside, there is no structural demand by parliament to scrutinize the decisions and actions of the MoD - except for questions that may or may not be asked. In the US for example, even the head of command appointment is vetted by its senate and indeed down to major weapon platforms and its numbers are decided by its members with an integral role to understand threats and risks, through their power of the purse. When the nation's budget speech gets no mention for its defense component and no one even bothers about it, one gets an idea of the level of apathy that has crept in. It is nothing but sheer abdication of responsibility, is it any wonder then that defense is no exception.

A critical test for this RM would be to change the very nature and structure of procurement to bring in private players into the mix and break the DSPU monopoly, who get even more bribes from the private sub contractors. I would have ideally liked disinvestment of these DPSU leeches controlled by the MoD babucracy but does not look like this government is going to bite that bullet. This RM wants to put his own stamp with the new DPP http://mod.nic.in/writereaddata/DPP2016.pdf

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby shiv » 07 Apr 2016 06:20

ShauryaT wrote:PS: I realize this is not a topic that inspires confidence but the question is, is it true?

Shaurya this is a topic that is great for rhetoric and it can be argued both ways - which is what the media (and, incidentally Karnad) are good at.

Speaking of my personal experience - my extended circle of friends and colleagues includes about 50 or more retired armed forces officers and all of them live lives like me. I speak of myself. Not corrupt. Not poor. Not dazzlingly wealthy.

One officer I met recently was an Air marshal who has flown Sukhois. Like many others I meet he was looking for things to do after retirement and got a job as a hospital manager. Retired forces folks do get managerial jobs because they are basically managers. I meet a lot of such people - ordinary people living ordinary lives. I can post this as proof that there is no corruption by means of teh same rhetoric that someone may use to force the issue.

The "truth" is probably in between. There will be corrupt people. There will be people getting kickbacks. there will be other who simply make a lot of money by whispering perfectly legally in the ears of people they know that HARM is better than NGARM. When rhetoric is used to push a point it only leads to argument around the rhetoric and does not get us any closer to "truth"

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Indrajit » 07 Apr 2016 19:29

Since the last 3 days there has been some air activities in Mumbai...Two 21s taking off in the morning & in the late evenings at around 8 o clock. Can anyone guess what is going on?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2016 20:21

Just an annual ex to test ops from.non regular airports

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Viv S » 28 Apr 2016 01:29

The way forward in military command


Image


By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 26th April 16


In a small amphibious training exercise called Jal Prahar that terminated last week, India’s military paid token obeisance to the notion of tri-service command, which serious, warfighting militaries have embraced decades ago. Jal Prahar was conducted by the Andaman & Nicobar Command (ANC), India’s only tri-service command --- which means it owns assets from the army, navy and air force and is commanded, in turn, by general officers from all three services. It involved a hundred soldiers, a handful of amphibious assault craft mostly borrowed from the navy’s eastern command, and three Jaguar strike aircraft that the Indian Air Force (IAF) kindly made available. The ANC, which military reformers established in 2001 in the forlorn hope that this might catalyse similar tri-service structures across the military, has failed spectacularly in achieving this aim.

While this sideshow played out in the Bay of Bengal, the army chief’s attention was focused on the high-profile Exercise Shatrujeet, involving tens of thousands of army soldiers, practising mechanised warfare and live fire tank drills in the Rajasthan desert. True, there was a substantial air power component to Exercise Shatrujeet, but it was primarily an army exercise in planning and conception.

Meanwhile, early this year, the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) of China adopted a tri-service credo in full, signalling its determination to undertake the deep systemic reforms needed to create an effective command structure that might someday credibly challenge the United States. In Beijing, on February 1st, the PLA’s seven “military regions”, traditionally led by the army, gave way to five geographic theatre commands (termed “battle zones”) that will now function on a tri-service basis, incorporating elements from the PLA Navy and PLA Air Force.

In India, the woeful debate over tri-service structures has focused mainly on appointing a tri-service commander --- a five-star “chief of defence staff (CDS)” recommended by a Group of Ministers (GoM) in 2001; or a four-star “permanent chairman chiefs of staff (PCCOS)”, a half-way house solution proposed in 2013 by the Naresh Chandra Committee. But there is little focus on the need to simultaneously restructure India’s single-service theatre commands, merging 17 army, navy and air force commands into five-six tri-service commands. Creating a CDS/PCCOS to oversee long-range force structuring and to deliver single-point military advice to political leaders would unquestionably make the military leaner and more effective. But creating tri-service theatre commands is crucial for enhancing battlefield performance.

Opposition to tri-service structures comes not just from bureaucrats and politicians as the generals like to lament, but equally from within the military. Neither the army, navy or air force chiefs want a military boss (CDS) or even another equal (PCCOS). And they certainly do not want to relinquish control over their theatre commands, with these cutting edge units placed under some commander who reports elsewhere. But what really strangles tri-service babies at birth are ill-founded, political-bureaucratic apprehensions about concentrating military power in one hand. The ANC and the IDS were spared this fate only because they were adjudged too weak to threaten either the three services or the political-bureaucratic class.

If the whispered (and to the military, deeply offensive) need to “coup proof” the command structure is standing in the way of this reform, it can be addressed structurally by creating tri-service theatre commanders, who report directly to the political leadership, like in the US. The three service chiefs, with their combat units distributed between the theatre commanders, would be freed from command responsibility and mandated to focus on their respective services’ manpower, equipping and training. These are currently given short shrift, with the chiefs weighed down by the time consuming daily responsibilities of operational command. The non-operational commands --- such as the three services’ “training commands” and the air force’s “maintenance command” could remain under the service chiefs. Operational commands like the Special Forces command, cyber command and the strategic forces command (the nuclear arsenal) could be hived off like the theatre commands.

Outside this command structure, the political leadership could select a five-star CDS, from any service, preferably on merit and trust rather than mere seniority, who would function as a “second opinion” military advisor. In many ways, this would mirror the US system, which has functioned admirably through inter-continental global challenges.

While distributing power between more commanders, this could be made palatable to the military by upgrading ranks --- which would also somewhat flatten the military’s unacceptably steep promotion pyramid. Each theatre commander, now handling independent, tri-service operational responsibilities, could be upgraded to four-star rank. The army, navy and air force chiefs would continue to be four-star generals, thus having a dozen four-star generals --- including the commanders of five geographical theatres, the ANC, and the Special Forces, strategic forces and cyber commands. The five-star CDS would be a respected figurehead.

This would allow Prime Minister Narendra Modi to credibly lay claim to genuine military reform. While making multiple promises in its April 2014 election manifesto and in numerous public statements since, the National Democratic Alliance government has delivered only on populist promises: like One Rank, One Pension, albeit in a diluted form; and sanctioning a national war memorial in New Delhi. On the promised structural reforms -- like implementing tri-service command, involving the military in defence ministry decision-making; establishing a National Marine Authority to oversee coastal security; boosting defence R&D; improving border management, and setting up a Veterans Commission to look after retired soldiers – there has been little delivery.

Addressing the military’s top commanders on December 15, Mr Modi declared: “We have been slow to reform the structures of our armed forces. We should shorten the tooth-to-tail ratio. And we should promote “jointness” across every level of our armed forces. We wear different colours, but we serve the same cause and bear the same flag. Jointness at the top is a need that is long overdue. We also need reforms in senior defence management. It is sad that many defence reform measures proposed in the past have not been implemented. This is an area of priority for me.”

Mr Modi is right, promises of reform have never been implemented, particularly the move towards tri-service command structures. He should now implement this priority.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby SidSom » 06 May 2016 08:18

ThGame is Afoot

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/thr ... 82604.html

Ghaziabad: Just two days after, three persons with alleged links with terrorist outfit Jaish-e- Mohammed links were arrested by Delhi Police, three unidentified men were seen entering Hindon Air Force Station in Uttar Pradesh's Ghaziabad district Thursday night.


Security officials went into a tizzy and continued search operation whole night. Though, no one has been held by the Air Force officials or the police, but the authorities have sealed the gates of the crucial air base and have asked all the staff to remain indoors.

Reports say that some people saw the three people entering the air base.

Notably, three members of terrorist outfit JeM, who were arrested following multiple raids at several places in Delhi and adjoining areas, had reportedly planned to attack Hindon Air Base and malls in Delhi/NCR.

The three with alleged "ideological leaning" towards the banned JeM were arrested here Tuesday night.

The three identified as Sajid Ahmad, Sameer Ahmed and Shakir Ansari were arrested while fabricating an Improvised Explosive Device (IED), official sources said.

The security of all key installations and government buildings has been beefed up after the arrest of 12 JeM militants.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Jun 2016 06:19

Here Shiv ji, didn't know this is new newbie thread:

Image

As you can see there are 3 images of same aircraft with same engines but 3 different wings number A1 , A2, A3

I have a few questions regarding these different wing orientations:

1. Which wing design plane will take least amount of runway TO TAKE OFF? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

2. Which wing design plane will take least amount of runway WHEN LANDING? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

3. Which wing design plane will have longest range? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

4. Which wing design plane will be fastest? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Jun 2016 06:23

Singha wrote:My guesses
A2 a1 a3
A3 a2 a1
A1 a3 a2
A1 a3 a2

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby shiv » 18 Jun 2016 06:29

Dhananjay wrote:Since I can't find the newbie thread so I'm putting the queries here:

Image

As you can see there are 3 images of same aircraft with same engines but 3 different wings number A1 , A2, A3

I have a few questions regarding these different wing orientations:


I will bite - I can only learn something from this..

One must assume all have the same wing area, same weight, same engine thrust and are working at the same temp and pressure

1. Which wing design plane will take least amount of runway TO TAKE OFF? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

Assuming all have the same wing area, same weight, same engine thrust and same temp and pressure I guess A3, A2 and A1 in that order

2. Which wing design plane will take least amount of runway WHEN LANDING? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

This would depend on factors other than wing shape I guess, but from the little theory I have read while drunk says that in an ideal situationA3 may be able to achieve the highest AoA at landing and therefore slowest speed without stalling. So again A3, A2, A1

3. Which wing design plane will have longest range? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

A1, A2 A3 I guess

4. Which wing design plane will be fastest? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

A1 A2 A3

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Jun 2016 07:11

Thanks Shiv ji, the question arose in me as I was thinking what kind of design we use if creating our own mini awacs for Vikrant carrier instead of importing and depending on EMALS, and then there was a poster writing what he saw at INS Hansa Do-228 and Mig 29K taking of from incredibly short runup.

Seems like A3 will be better design for it. Now to see in what thurst engine and weight combo it can take of from 262 meter long Vikrant IAC.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Singha » 18 Jun 2016 08:15

if a3 were that good, why would nobody use fwd swept design except in protos. till date not a single fwd swept wing exists in civil or mil domain despite lot of noise in 70s and 80s about f16ish types with such wings and berkut etc.

to me it sounds like a brilliant university thesis concept that met engineering reality out there. probably the stress on the wing roots are higher

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Jun 2016 08:20

Maybe due to less speed and less mileage? Kitna Deti hai syndrome? Also speed is less ?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby shiv » 18 Jun 2016 09:36

Singha wrote:if a3 were that good, why would nobody use fwd swept design except in protos. till date not a single fwd swept wing exists in civil or mil domain despite lot of noise in 70s and 80s about f16ish types with such wings and berkut etc.

to me it sounds like a brilliant university thesis concept that met engineering reality out there. probably the stress on the wing roots are higher

I think the idea of forward sweep was that the wingtips would stall before the rest of the wing and cause a nose down. But I think in practice it never worked that way - Google tells me that wings broke because of stresses. However the Germans did build an executive jet - the "Hansajet" with fwd swept wings - but the reason had nothing to do with stall

Hansajet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger ... _Hansa_Jet

My guesses were based on the following premises which may be wrong:

Spanwise air flow in fwd swept wings will aid lift but increase drag. Opposite occurs in backward swept wings. Hence my choice of A1, A2 A3 or vice versa for lift, speed etc

In any case spanwise airflow in backward swept wings can be modified by fences etc and the "yaw instability" of forward swept wings is not there. All timepass theory for the chairbusters...

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby shiv » 18 Jun 2016 09:42

Dhananjay wrote:Seems like A3 will be better design for it. Now to see in what thurst engine and weight combo it can take of from 262 meter long Vikrant IAC.

A3 is apparently not a good idea in general. I recall reading about this in the 60s or 70s when the German Hansajet appeared but I did not bother looking at what Google says until today

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby JayS » 18 Jun 2016 10:57

Dhananjay wrote:Here Shiv ji, didn't know this is new newbie thread:

Image

As you can see there are 3 images of same aircraft with same engines but 3 different wings number A1 , A2, A3

I have a few questions regarding these different wing orientations:

1. Which wing design plane will take least amount of runway TO TAKE OFF? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

2. Which wing design plane will take least amount of runway WHEN LANDING? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

3. Which wing design plane will have longest range? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?

4. Which wing design plane will be fastest? Which planes will be 2nd and 3rd in that order?


Assuming your question only focuses on the the sweep of the wing and other things are modified accordingly to be in congruence with the sweep (for ex A3 is mounted too far ahead on the fuselage. It will be statically unstable configuration - has to be shifted downstream) and other things being the same. Also assuming that one can actually build A3 config for real life situation with todays technology.

Forward swept wing is slightly better in the lift generation than the backward sweep configuration. The inward spanwise flow helps in reducing tip vortices and help in having better lift at wing roots which is the major lift generating portion. In backward swept config this is reverse. So A3 is slightly better than A1 in life generation. But this same advantage becomes a disadvantage the moment it stalls. A3 is bad at stalling. It makes the root stall first - totally opposite of what it required. Due to loss of lift in root section - which is relatively huge loss sharp nose-up happens aggravating the situation (unstable config). So A3 will be slightly more aerodynamically efficient (better L/D) than A1. A2 will be superior than both - Rule of thumb straight wings are always better in low speed flight than swept wings. Thats why swing wing designs like F14 switch to min sweep during landing and TO.

The only real reason swept wings are used it to make it fly well in transonic regime (increasing its M_divergence, M_critical). And in that forward and backward sweep are equivalent until they have the same sweep for their wing quarter-chord line, aerodynamically speaking. So in speed A1/A3 are better than A2 for sure. However what differentiates A3 and A1 is the aero-elastic effects. A3 would have lower flutter free Max speed that A1. Also the Aerodynamic twisting dynamics is diverging in case of A3. Long story short - Max safe speed of flying will be higher for A1 than for A3. A2 comes last here.

Range is tricky thing to comment on. But in general more efficient the wing is better is the range. Straight wing wins hands down in this if you avoid transonic regime. So you go longer but slowly. If you want to go faster then sweep is imperative. Straight wing will lose its efficiency there. If the criteria is only to go as long as you can without worrying about max speed A2, A3, A1 would be the order. (If speed needs to be as high as possible then perhaps A3,A1,A2 will be the order).

So my vote is for:
1. A2, A3, A1
2. A2, A3, A1
3. A2, A3, A1
4. A1, A3, A2

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby deejay » 18 Jun 2016 11:05

nileshjr wrote:...
Range is tricky thing to comment on. But in general more efficient the wing is better is the range. Straight wing wins hands down in this if you avoid transonic regime. So you go longer but slowly. If you want to go faster then sweep is imperative. Straight wing will lose its efficiency there. If the criteria is only to go as long as you can without worrying about max speed A2, A3, A1 would be the order. (If speed needs to be as high as possible then perhaps A3,A1,A2 will be the order).

...


Straight wing design will have higher endurance ( air time) but lesser range (air distance) when compared to the other designs.

I think that is what you were saying anyways. :)

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby JayS » 18 Jun 2016 11:35

deejay wrote:
nileshjr wrote:...
Range is tricky thing to comment on. But in general more efficient the wing is better is the range. Straight wing wins hands down in this if you avoid transonic regime. So you go longer but slowly. If you want to go faster then sweep is imperative. Straight wing will lose its efficiency there. If the criteria is only to go as long as you can without worrying about max speed A2, A3, A1 would be the order. (If speed needs to be as high as possible then perhaps A3,A1,A2 will be the order).

...


Straight wing design will have higher endurance ( air time) but lesser range (air distance) when compared to the other designs.

I think that is what you were saying anyways. :)


Max Endurance happens at max (L/D) i.e. max (C_L/C_D) condition for given aircraft. And max range occurs while flying at max (sqrt(C_L)/C_D). With everything else same the aircraft which has maximum of these ratios win in the respective category. As a rule of thumb we can say the wing with max (L/D) will have better Endurance and Range. Straight wing will have better L/D as compared to the swept wings for same wingspan and wing area. This is why all gliders, mostly all the drones which need max endurance/Range have straight wings.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2016 14:38


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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 18 Jun 2016 15:20

forward wings had several structural problems and also tended to be more unstable overall for the aircraft flight dynamics - they are quite good for agile military applications. however the structural issues tended to outweigh the aerodynamic ones

the subsonic best compromise was the straight wing

the high sub/trans/low supersonic was the moderately swept wing

>M2 needs high sweep and delta type configurations

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby member_28985 » 19 Jun 2016 01:45

How does HTT-40 compare against Pilatus PC-7? What is the export potential for HTT-40? Can it be lightly armed for operations with coast guards, CRPF anti-Naxals etc?

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby shiv » 19 Jun 2016 20:36

ashbhee wrote:How does HTT-40 compare against Pilatus PC-7? What is the export potential for HTT-40? Can it be lightly armed for operations with coast guards, CRPF anti-Naxals etc?

The entire idea of developing HTT 40 as a HAL program without any IAF involvement was to offer stuff that the PC 7 does not have. That includes armament and a 0-0 ejection seat.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Shanmukh » 04 Sep 2016 04:14

Folks - is it correct that the standard IAF repertoire doesn't include side arms? Are IAF officers not armed with pistols, etc as a rule, while going to & back from duty? Asking this in the context of the murder of Sq. Ldr. Ravi Khanna & his men, slaughtered by JKLF terrorists - Yasin Malik & his thugs. Yasin Malik & his thugs sprayed bullets on Sq. Ldr. Ravi Khanna and his group of officers, killing four, and wounding ten. Sq. Ldr. Ravi Khanna & his men did not fire back at the militants, though many of the other air force men were unhurt in the attack. A source claims that it was because they were all unarmed. Just wanted to confirm this.

Singha, Shiv, Rohitvats - looking at you guys for answers on this.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Sep 2016 07:53

No IAF officers are not armed with sidearms while going on and off duty

I once asked a retired Air Marshal and a retired Rear Admiral why they did not buy a personal firearm as they are entitled to do. Both gave me interesting reasons. The Air Marshal said that in India, in civvy street one might get murdered because someone wants to steal the gun, which is more valuable than diamond jewellery. The navy man said that he felt he had such a short temper that he would probably have shot someone if he had ready access to a weapon all the time.. :D

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby wig » 04 Sep 2016 10:40

I think sr officers generally do not carry sidearms. it is the security detail which carries arms. in 2003 some terroists hid in the Akhnur army area and attacked sr officers on a visit. A Brig was killed and others including a Lt Gen were injured. to my mind it appears if the officers had carried sidearms they could have at the very least shot at the concealed enemy. from the reports at that time it appeared that they did not shoot back. The elimination of the enemy was achieved by the accompanying security detail later.

Akhnoor attack: Hiding ultra kills brigadier, injures Northern Command chief
A brigadier was killed when a militant hiding in the Akhnoor army camp, which came under fidayeen attack leading to the death of seven soldiers, fired upon Northern Command chief Lieutenant General Hari Prasad and some top officers.
Lt Gen Hari Prasad received injuries and has been flown to Srinagar for treatment. The killed army officer has been identified as Brigadier Ram Goyal of the EME.
General Officer Commanding-in-Chief (GOC-in-C) 16 Corps Lt Gen T P S Brar, Major General Sapru, commander of a brigade based in Akhnoor, Brigadier Baldev Singh and Colonel Jais Rawat, staff officer of Gen Prasad, were the other officers injured. They have also been flown to the Army Hospital in Srinagar for treatment.
The attack took place at around 1315 hours IST when the holed-up terrorist opened fire and lobbed grenades, defence sources said.
Brigadier Goyal was seriously injured in the attack and succumbed soon after, they said.
Gen Prasad, Gen Brar, Brigadier Singh and Col Rawat sustained shrapnel injuries, they said.
The terrorist was later killed at around 1440 hours IST by the armymen. His two associates were gunned down earlier while a search was on for the possible fourth accomplice.
Union Defence Minister George Fernandes is flying to Jammu on Wednesday to take stock of the situation.
Fernandes, apart from meeting the army top brass, will also meet state officials.
Meanwhile, army chief General N C Vij dashed to Jammu.


I suppose the status has changed since.
link to the news above
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jul/22jk5.htm

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby Shanmukh » 04 Sep 2016 17:21

Shiv-ji,
Thanks very much for the insights.

Wig-ji,
Interesting info about the casualties. Thanks very much.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby ramana » 27 Sep 2016 23:21

X-Post...
SSridhar wrote:IAF airbases along western front on high alert, hold major air defence exercise - Rajat Pandit, ToI
IAF's premier operational command along the western front has gone on a high alert with a major exercise across all its 18 airbases and other installations from Srinagar to Bikaner, which comes amid heightened tensions with Pakistan in the aftermath of the terror attack on the Army camp in Uri.

The primary objective of "Exercise Talon" involving the crucial Western Air Command (WAC) is to "improve operational preparedness and air defence" in the entire stretch from J&K to Rajasthan, said defence sources on Monday.

Though the four-day war-games are largely defensive in nature, with combat air patrols and PAD-GD (passive air defence and ground defence) operations, it's significant that WAC had conducted a similar Talon exercise just about a week before the terror attack on the Uri Army camp on September 18.

Repeating the intensive manoeuvres within the same month is highly unusual, said sources
, adding that it showed that IAF was leaving nothing to chance at a time when Pakistan's F-16s and other fighters have been taking to the skies on a regular basis across the border, apart from practising landing on highways.

The Indian Army, of course, has been refining different contingency plans in conjunction with the IAF after the Uri attack to further synergise the integrated air-land fighting machinery, even as the force has also steadily upgraded its "readiness" all along the 778 km line of control with additional troops, "forward movement" of ammunition and fuel dumps and the like, as was earlier reported by TOI.

There have also been a flurry of top-level military meetings over the last one week among the different top commanders as well as detailed presentations to PM Narendra Modi, defence minister Manohar Parrikar and national security advisor Ajit Doval in the military operations directorate in South Block.

While WAC chief Air Marshal S B Deo has been visiting the different airbases under his command, chiefs of the Army's South-Western Command (Jaipur), Western Command (Chandimandir) and Northern Command (Udhampur) too have been reviewing their areas of responsibility.

Western Command chief Lt-General Surinder Singh, for instance, visited the Jammu-Pathankot region over the weekend to direct his commanders to "maintain a high order of operational preparedness and alertness".

Said a source, "All personnel have been told to be available at short notice."


As for the Talon exercise underway till September 30, IAF also continues to deploy Israeli unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) or spy drones to maintain "a constant surveillance" over all airbases ranging from Srinagar, Leh, Thoise, Awantipur to Ambala, Amritsar, Halwara and Nal.

"The exercise also involves camouflaging runways, moving aircraft to their blast pens and deploying decoys to prevent or minimize losses during enemy attacks. IAF's automated air defence network with a wide variety of radars and date links or the IACCS (integrated air command and control system) is also on a high alert,"
said a source.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby AdityaM » 02 Oct 2016 16:26

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/efforts-on-to-secure-release-of-indian-soldier-in-pak-manohar-parrikar-1469097

Any information on the number of Pakistani soldiers who may have drifted into indian controlled territory in the last 10 years?

With fencing in most places, and a heightened alert following Uri attack, what circumstances can cause a soldier to walk into enemy controlled territory and make a bargaining chip mess, that too on a day when the initiative was with the Indian army.

Sometimes an indian Helicopter lands in Pakistan controlled territory
Sometimes an Indian naval personal gets caught in baluchistan.

I don't understand the stupidity of this all.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby jamwal » 02 Oct 2016 17:36

LOC is not fenced completely everywhere and is not something like houses divided by boundarywalls. It is possible for people to get lost, get disoriented and enter enemy territory inadvertently .

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby AdityaM » 02 Oct 2016 18:06

Same should apply to the other side as well, but how often does it happen that a Paki comes walking this way

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby deejay » 02 Oct 2016 18:41

AdityaM wrote:Same should apply to the other side as well, but how often does it happen that a Paki comes walking this way


I guess Indian Soldiers are dumb. Paki Army is good / better than ours.

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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussions

Postby shiv » 02 Oct 2016 21:37

AdityaM wrote:Same should apply to the other side as well, but how often does it happen that a Paki comes walking this way

It's happening all the time.

I think this one soldier who went across was an unfortunate coincidence because the media are now concentrating on that and making it look like a little defeat for India - an idea that is being echoed by all the rona-dhona on BRF

The number of news items I have read about people straying across is huge. But why not soldiers, you might ask? I think if you apply your mind for half a minute you can answer that question. The number of Pakis who cross over as jihadis (and not uniformed soldiers) is enormous. Jihadis and Pakistan soldiers are one and the same, except for uniform and I am sure you know that as a well established BRFite That should tell you how often a Paki comes walking this way.


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