Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby chilarai » 28 Jun 2013 13:29

Agnimitra wrote:A British act of unfriendliness
New Delhi must respond to Britain’s discriminatory visa regime.

The British government has included India in a list of ‘high risk’ countries whose citizens will have to post a bond of £3000 (around Rs 275,000) when they apply for a six-month visa. The bond will be fully repaid when the visa-holder leaves Britain, but forfeited in cases of overstay and deportation. It will will apply to highest risk visitors and not to all visitors from the selected countries (LT Sachin Kalbag). The new visa policy is consistent with the Conservative government’s policy to reduce immigration.



pretty rich coming from those who overstayed in India by as much as 200+ years !

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby lakshmikanth » 28 Jun 2013 13:31

Abhijeetji,

Another thoughtless soundbite "mumbo jumbo" from a simpleton:

Would appreciate it if we can keep conversation civil. Name calling is usually a very unproductive way to get answers. Tomorrow if this simpleton has something of value to you, he may chose to keep quiet or avoid.

Whats the point in making enemies for no reason hain? But, whatever floats your boat (as the American saying goes).


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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby JwalaMukhi » 28 Jun 2013 13:57

Abhijeet wrote:
Specifically with regard to the bond issue, I always thought the Indian community in the UK was too rich and influential to be lumped with other basket case countries, but I guess that's not the case.

Please, let us first dissect this assumption that being rich and influential or otherwise makes the ukstanis behave as they are behaving. Sorry, to break news that ukstanis behave as they behave independent of whether Indians are rich and influential.

Before going on another incorrect presumptive as "solidarity with others", first reconcile why ukstanis are behaving as they behave? If you think it is solely based on one's wealth, then you already have answer of what needs to be done to be treated better.

Incorrect understanding leads incorrect diagnosis which leads to erroneous solution. That's precisely what got us into the mess in first place.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby lakshmikanth » 28 Jun 2013 14:09

^^^ Thats precisely what I was trying to say.

We can organize as Indian-special-interest-group and fight against "it" , but against WHAT are we fighting, who are our allies, who are our enemies. Without a critical analysis of these factors, we wont have moved an inch from where we are.

We might of course be able to ward of symptoms, for sometime, but the disease shall remain in the background, and the need of the hour is to raise awareness on how to identify and address this disease.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Neela » 28 Jun 2013 14:38

From the BBC: India: A Dangerous Place To Be A Woman
Six months ago, a young medical student was brutally gang-raped on board a bus in the Indian capital Delhi. One of the many horrified at the violence was Radha Bedi, a young British Asian woman, who’s now going to India to uncover the reality of life for women there.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Neela » 28 Jun 2013 14:39

But Britain is a very safe place for kids !

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Haresh » 28 Jun 2013 15:17

Neela wrote:But Britain is a very safe place for kids !


Like it or not kids probably are safer in the UK.

What people mustn't do is turn this sort of thing into a nationalistic issue.

It is natural to react that way, especially after the UK media's anti Indian camp.

I don't think I would want to be a poor child or female in India. :(

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Gus » 28 Jun 2013 15:47

many years ago, when i went to UK from massa, to run a project..i was asked to carry a chest x-ray for TB. initially i thought the attorney is joking and i was not amused learning about the requirement. do they still have that?

but, it is a problem for the authorities there when they get both the high and low end of indians and they can't or probably they should not profile based on any criteria.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby vinod » 28 Jun 2013 18:21

Haresh wrote:I don't think I would want to be a poor child or female in India. :(


I wouldn't want to be poor anywhere at anytime!

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby vinod » 28 Jun 2013 18:24

habal wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/bond-scheme-goes-back-to-drawing-board/article4857704.ece?homepage=true


I didn't see this in any of the UK media. Did anyone come across this in UK media?
Last I heard was Nick Clegg wasn't too happy about it. I think Cameron and May are OK with it. So, it all depends on the pressure Indian Govt can put on UK.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby brihaspati » 28 Jun 2013 19:57

Why should UK Indians fight this law? They should know what UK is all about, and they have made a conscious choice knowing all that is there in UK against Indians from the time of the Raj - and which has never ever really changed in any fundamental way. They still thought that in overall accounts - their gain is much higher than their losses. So, they decided to stay on. They must also accept whatever is dished out - until they feel that their account books are in the red in overall valuation. Sometimes, even mental satisfaction can go a long way in compensating for other perceived apparent concrete losses - say something like the profound survey based conclusion of the worst child sufferer in UK being still better off than the best maintained child in India. Its called utility theory in zimple economics.

All one needs to do is push up the utility of being an Indian in UK, and then the other media based universally applicable truths of comparative "betterness" of UK in all domains compared to India. Lower down the utility of those that hurt. There you have it - paramananda onlee.

I think the bond is a good move. There should be more barriers for Indians to come to such countries. The barriers will be non-existent for those who really matter - for example, anyone from the dynastic rulers of India, or steel magnets, or hawala barons from Mirpur, or political sons from the subcontinent accused of money-laundering in their native places.

These people and UK deserve each other any way. Why "poor" Indians should pollute this pure land - ji?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Haresh » 28 Jun 2013 22:15

Gus,
a few years ago I read a report that the largest source of TB infection in the UK was actually eastern Europe and Russia.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 ... -infection

With regards to "high and low end of indians and they can't or probably they should not profile based on any criteria" I disagree. They should and I will tell you why.
There is a place in London called Heston, it is between Hounslow and Southall, there is a motorway fly over on the boundary. A few years ago all the Indians who had come to the UK on student visa's who had lost their jobs were living homeless under the fly over. They were penniless, homeless, relying on the temples for food, living in rags. They were using fields as toilets. They could not afford to go back, they had destroyed their passports when they arrived. Their families had sold everything to get them into the UK or borrowed money, hoping that in the medium to long term they would prosper and pay back the loans and help their families become wealthy.

Their dreams have died, the families in India have sold their assets and borrowed money, which now has to be paid back. They are ruined. What was the point of all that effort? how many famiies have been ruined for at least two generations. :(

Border controls should be strict. For the sake of both parties.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_22733 » 29 Jun 2013 00:02

Hareshji,

That is horrible.

There is a big immigration debate going on in the US. The mexicans who arrive in the US usually find job and very rarely end up in serious trouble. The society here (so far) has been open enough to accept them, and value them and to a large extent integrate.

Regardless of how racist the US really is, I think its much better than the UK situation.

India has to strengthen internal opportunities for our folks (UPA2 is doing a fine job on it... NOT ), and give people an incentive to stay back instead of trying to migrate out in hordes. I am saying that as a migrant myself.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Jun 2013 00:55

Haresh wrote:
Neela wrote:But Britain is a very safe place for kids !


Like it or not kids probably are safer in the UK.

What people mustn't do is turn this sort of thing into a nationalistic issue.

It is natural to react that way, especially after the UK media's anti Indian camp.

I don't think I would want to be a poor child or female in India. :(


Many many years back, I remember reading a story either in toi or iexpress about a case against headmaster in UK 'cause he used to put them across his knees take off their skirt/trouser and hit them on buttocks. After lots of complaints a case was started against him, but he got pardon as some royal family woman who studied under him gave him 'good character certificate'.

I have studied in 5 different govt. schools got beatings by teachers and saw others beaten but never a teacher molesting child sexually. And these were hindi medium govt. school, where the fee upto 8th standard was 2 ruppes 10 paise and 9th to 12th it used to be 13 rupees 20 paise.

You haresh talk as if no woman in UK has ever been raped by caucasians, or no white britisher has ever beaten a wife or girlfriend.

No british ever molested a child, in fact there was one britisher in news who was molesting children in Bharatvarsh's missionary run orphanage.

So before british came in touch with africa or asia, they didn't even know what rape, molestation are? :rotfl:

Hudd ho gayi.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Jun 2013 01:01

Neela wrote:From the BBC: India: A Dangerous Place To Be A Woman
Six months ago, a young medical student was brutally gang-raped on board a bus in the Indian capital Delhi. One of the many horrified at the violence was Radha Bedi, a young British Asian woman, who’s now going to India to uncover the reality of life for women there.

How quickly we all forgot the virginity tests young Indian women (and incidentally Kenyan women were also subjected to the same test which might be the reason why President Obama is not all that enamored with the nation that seems to believe they punch above their weight) were subjected to during late 1970 to early 1980s.

Two of us SDREs landed at Heathrow believing the law they had at that time which said if one is from a Commonwealth country then one would get a visa at port of entry into UK. Guess what? We two were the last people from the flight to have gotten in. In fact I was the last but one person, and my dear friend who is a shade darker (both of us are SDREs so there is not much difference in our skin color) was the last just a minute after my visa was granted. We were at different counters and each of us was questioned for almost 40-45 minutes. There was nobody at the counters after about 10 minutes. We were in very good jobs (not in UK) well educated (certainly better educated than the clerks manning the immigration). This was several years ago just about a year after the British down-hill skied from the virginity tests after a big hue and cry from all over the world.

I am not sure what the British look for in immigrants. I have grave doubts about the intelligence of the in-bred leaders who populate their House of Lords. Their scientists/engineers/mathmetaicians are certainly some of the best but I am not sure whether the same can be said about their polticos.

I beseech all you UK PIOs once again - to the consternation of Eklavya ji :wink:, I presume - to leave that blighted blighty with all you have got and let them sort it out in the coming civil war which would turn into an uncivil new crusade quite quickly and will be fought on the streets of London. The new saladdins are sure to win as the current leadership is no "Lion Hearted". Alternatively the country will be torn apart like a "kukkalu chimpina vistari" - the way a banana leaf on which a lavish dinner had been served would be torn apart by a rabid pack of dogs.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 29 Jun 2013 03:20

matrimc wrote:I beseech all you UK PIOs once again - to the consternation of Eklavya ji :wink:, I presume - to leave that blighted blighty with all you have got and let them sort it out in the coming civil war which would turn into an uncivil new crusade quite quickly and will be fought on the streets of London.


matrimc, congratulations. Your views are now fully aligned with that of the British National Party. Well done.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby JwalaMukhi » 29 Jun 2013 05:09

From the BBC: India: A Dangerous Place To Be A Woman
Six months ago, a young medical student was brutally gang-raped on board a bus in the Indian capital Delhi. One of the many horrified at the violence was Radha Bedi, a young British Asian woman, who’s now going to India to uncover the reality of life for women there.


as opposed to being a dangerous place to be a girl like the enlightened islanders!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ox ... e-23079649
The court heard how the men - two of east African origin and five of Pakistani origin - identified vulnerable girls for abuse and then groomed each one of them until they were under the control of the gang.

They were then each either abused by the men themselves, given to the men's friends or offered at a price to others who were not on trial.

The girls were mostly chosen because their unsettled or troubled lives made them easier to manipulate.

Judge Peter Rook, sentencing, said Jamil, the Dogar brothers and the Karrar brothers abused vulnerable girls in Oxford over a long period, and on occasions the "depravity was extreme".

The abuse started in Oxford but some victims were later taken to other parts of the country to be offered to other men who were in contact with the gang.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby brihaspati » 29 Jun 2013 05:25

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/422366.article

In every job interview he attended in the UK, there was one question Aakash Brahmachari dreaded.

“They would ask about my visa status,” says Brahmachari, who graduated with a first-class degree from the University of Cambridge in October. The 25-year-old from Mumbai began his search for a graduate job in the UK as soon as he arrived to study for an MPhil in international relations in September 2011. “My days were packed with activities: classes, rowing, badminton, rock climbing, boxing. Then I would come back and apply for a few jobs,” he explains.

After making more than 90 applications, Brahmachari received just five expressions of interest. Whenever a prospective employer found out that he needed a sponsored work visa, the lines of communication went dead. Even companies on the official register of sponsors turned him down, citing visa requirements as the issue, he says.

Cases such as Brahmachari’s are raising serious concerns among prospective students in India, who may wonder whether heading to the UK is worth it after all. And if students are questioning the value of studying in the UK because of the visa situation, that is a pressing worry for the British higher education sector.

Since April 2012, non-European Union graduates looking to stay on to work in the UK after their studies have four months to find a job paying at least £20,000 at a registered sponsor company that will support their application for a Tier 2 visa - the replacement for the automatic two-year post-study work visa to which such students were previously entitled.

A tough graduate employment market has exacerbated the impact of these changes, which are widely perceived by students and companies as barring the door to foreign workers.

Those who do manage to secure a Tier 2 visa complain of shifting goalposts around the restrictions.

Uzma Muneer, from Karachi in Pakistan, got a Tier 2 sponsorship to take up a job at a business school in London on a salary of £25,000.

But a rule change on 14 June last year meant that her wage would have to increase to £32,000 in line with minimum salary codes introduced for each sector. Her employer was unwilling to increase her pay. She is now working part-time using her student visa, but she will have to leave the UK when this expires, she says.

For many Indian graduates, including Brahmachari, the changes have meant returning home in the past few months to look for work. There, they find an employment market where salaries are much smaller than those in the UK and the currency of a foreign degree is losing its value.

For many UK universities, it means that for the first time they are having to help their overseas graduates look for work in their home country, even as the government insists that Britain is still recruiting the brightest foreign talent.

Discerning employers

Gaurav Lahiri, managing director of the Hay Group India, says Indian employers are becoming more discerning.
“Ten to 20 years ago if you said you had studied in England and [had decided to] come back to India, that would be enough,” Lahiri says. “But now people have gone through the system and know what works and what doesn’t.”

Indian graduates’ difficulty in finding work at home with a foreign degree was highlighted in December when it was reported that two graduates of Leeds Metropolitan University’s campus in Bhopal in India were taking their complaint against the branch campus to India’s Supreme Court. They argued that their degrees were worthless in India because the All India Council for Technical Education had not accredited them.

The “expat premium” that allowed graduates of overseas institutions to command higher salaries than their Indian-educated peers is also fading away, says Manish Sabharwal, chairman of TeamLease, an Indian staffing organisation.

“Increasingly the decision (about whether or not) to go overseas is driven by the cost of an education and the return on that investment,” says Sabharwal. “A foreign degree doesn’t give the Indian student enough of a return in the job market in the short term. It may do in 20 or 30 years, but you can’t afford to wait that long if you have a loan.” Taking a loan and going overseas to study was a low-risk position five years ago, Sabharwal says. “I don’t think it is any more,” he adds.


Pankaj Badaya, a 28-year-old from Jaipur, had an offer from the University of Glasgow to study for a master’s in computer science and a loan to pay for it. However, he turned the place down when he found that he would not automatically qualify for a post-study work visa. “I have to pay a lot of fees, and the country isn’t allowing me to work after studying so that’s a big problem for me,” he says. Badaya is now considering learning German and going to study in Germany instead.

[...]
Shubhada M. Rao, president and chief economist at India’s Yes Bank, says: “Definitely a degree from a foreign university is very welcome, but at the same time indigenising it to adapt to the local working culture is important.”

This is where UK universities are beginning to step in.

In October last year, the University of the West of England launched UK/India Grad Link, a website aimed at connecting Indian, Chinese and Malaysian students with employers at home. Its early success prompted another university to offer to buy the site from UWE.

David Gee, global careers consultant at UWE, says the changes to Britain’s post-study work visa amount to an “abolition” of the right to work in the UK after graduating. “The reality is that more Indian graduates will return home, and this is a service that will help facilitate that,” he says.

London makes it pitch

In late November, following UWE’s lead, a coalition of 16 London universities including King’s College London, London South Bank University and the University of East London launched a web portal linking students with the Indian jobs search website FirstNaukri.com (first job), where they can upload their CVs for Indian employers to see.

Boris Johnson, the mayor of London, attended the initiative’s official launch during his high-profile trip to New Delhi, where he told Times Higher Education that changes to post-study visa policies were “perceived as a barrier” by Indian students and needed “urgent sandpapering”. Until that happens, universities appear to be putting in place contingency plans to help their foreign graduates find jobs abroad and, in turn, to improve their image among potential overseas students.

Gary Davies, chair of the newly formed London Universities International Partnership, which is behind the online initiative, says: “We are making headway as a sector convincing Indian students that the post-study work visa does still exist, but (we are) also thinking about the long-term need for employability.” As a source of students coming to the UK, Davies adds, “India is a far more postgraduate market, older and more employment-focused.” Three times as many Indians come to the UK for postgraduate study as do for undergraduate study. But numbers of Indian postgraduates opting for Britain fell for the first time in 2010-11 after a decade of healthy year-on-year growth. Changes to student visas, and particularly to the post-study work visa, are widely seen as responsible.

Deepali Singh, business head and senior vice-president of FirstNaukri, says most Indian recruiters are not exposed to people who have studied in the UK and do not understand the value of overseas degrees. “Indians are very cautious,” she says. “There is more than enough supply within the country without looking to people from outside, unless they come with really specialised skills.”

Back in Mumbai, Brahmachari will start work this month as a senior researcher in international trade at the thinktank where he worked as an intern before going to Cambridge. “British universities helping Indian students get jobs in India is a noble gesture,” Brahmachari says. “But really, is that what they have gone there to study for?”

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Jun 2013 05:48

eklavya wrote:...
matrimc, congratulations. Your views are now fully aligned with that of the British National Party. Well done.

Thanks, but frankly it is no skin off my nose. I don't have a dog in that internal fight. Just we have an office pool, if you know what I mean. :twisted:

So, no comment on virginity tests? Are they likely to come back in not so distant future?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Jun 2013 07:02

Eklavya ji,

I think we are going round and round chasing each other. Here is a deal.

Please categorically state that there is no racism and no rigid social hierarchical structure in UK, get that "cultural capital" survey revoked, explain British actions against Indian interests, HMG's hectoring lectures to Indian citizens, and BBC propaganda. In return I will stop posting evidence of past and continuing British perfidy and their Janus faced policies in the subcontinent. No sweat.

regards

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Neela » 29 Jun 2013 11:02

Haresh wrote:
Neela wrote:But Britain is a very safe place for kids !

Like it or not kids probably are safer in the UK.
What people mustn't do is turn this sort of thing into a nationalistic issue.
It is natural to react that way, especially after the UK media's anti Indian camp.
I don't think I would want to be a poor child or female in India. :(


I agree that this must not be turned into a nationalistic issue. But didnt the BBC do just that? And let us not forget that the BBC is the British Broadcasting Corp - they are named so for a reason.

Moreover, Britiain is no paradise for women either. Saville went on a spree for decades. How convenient that after his death , the accusations start flying. And the number of victims are in the hundreds. Compare that with the Abhishek Singhvis case? What he did was no crime but our reporting seems to be more robust. After Saville, out come a stream of cases of sexual abuse and assault. WHat does that tell you about the justice system there and the way police handle cases. Isnt this similar to reports of how police in India refuse to file FIRs.

I was talking to a police officer in Gujarat, now retired since 6 years (FIL of a friend) . He mentioned that a true test of police response and justice system lies in how the lower strata of society feel about them.
How do you think British police and judicial system will fare when immigrants from Africa and Asia working in menial jobs are asked?

Finally, the Indian student who got murdered in Britain by a psyhco ....no disrespect meant to the departed person but I doubt if there would have been so much coverage were it not for the thousands of Indian students who literraly run British Universities with their money.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby habal » 29 Jun 2013 13:10

paedophilia is institutionalized in Britain, the folks from lower rungs of society who are often caught and paraded on TV are just copying the perversions of the 'high-class' in their own way. They are not a clean society as a whole, they just have different perversions from ours. This whole freemason thing was instituionalized in UK and one thing they were always rumored to do, but never caught due to their control of administrative levers, was child sacrifice and cannibalism conducted in secret rituals. Even queen mommy was supposed to have indulged in it at some point of time. So both the highest rungs and the poorest ghettos are equally unsafe for children in Britain.

But the white middle-class enclaves that have been carved out in exclusive suburbs still remain safest. And most colored folk also try to shift to such suburbs thinking they are safer. This is the experience that certain UK-resident Indians are trying to convey.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 29 Jun 2013 13:20

matrimc wrote:Eklavya ji,

I think we are going round and round chasing each other. Here is a deal.

Please categorically state that there is no racism and no rigid social hierarchical structure in UK, get that "cultural capital" survey revoked, explain British actions against Indian interests, HMG's hectoring lectures to Indian citizens, and BBC propaganda. In return I will stop posting evidence of past and continuing British perfidy and their Janus faced policies in the subcontinent. No sweat.

regards


Keep posting whatever you like. No sweat.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 29 Jun 2013 13:24

matrimc wrote:
eklavya wrote:...
matrimc, congratulations. Your views are now fully aligned with that of the British National Party. Well done.

Thanks, but frankly it is no skin off my nose. I don't have a dog in that internal fight. Just we have an office pool, if you know what I mean. :twisted:

So, no comment on virginity tests? Are they likely to come back in not so distant future?


Why don't you tell us and the office pool. You have already predicted a civil war (many thanks for that), so your prediction on virginity tests is also eagerly awaited. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Karan M » 29 Jun 2013 17:20

Neela, well said. Amongst the western nations, the UK seems to have one of the most pompous and hypocritical leadership plus an arrogant media, the latter of which seem to think that the UK is still an empire and they can get away slagging any nation.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Jun 2013 22:39

eklavya wrote:Why don't you tell us and the office pool. You have already predicted a civil war (many thanks for that), so your prediction on virginity tests is also eagerly awaited. Thanks in advance.

Unfortunately I am taking my advice from a British bookie. It wants me to do a parlay for a far bigger payoff. I am just wondering whether to go for it or not. So, asking people with inside info. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Shanmukh » 30 Jun 2013 00:50

Karan M wrote:Neela, well said. Amongst the western nations, the UK seems to have one of the most pompous and hypocritical leadership plus an arrogant media, the latter of which seem to think that the UK is still an empire and they can get away slagging any nation.


There seems something about the place itself, Karan-ji. Plenty of relatives of mine, who are in Britain, seem to have developed the `brown sahib' mentality. Not sure what turns many people there into a bunch of self righteous and hypocritical preachers. My feeling is that they have not got over the loss of the empire, and play these games to pretend, to themselves at least, that Britain still matters at all, and they are still on top of the world, morally at least.

Eklavya-ji - do they teach what they did during the colonial era? Particularly their actions in deliberately causing/exacerbating famines all over the world, to kill numbers that would make Stalin and Mao look like saints?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Haresh » 30 Jun 2013 01:25

LokeshC,

I have relations who have gone to the gulf and other arab nations for work.
They are poor and have no choice. I look at all those projects in the mid east and I think, if there were more of those going on in India they would have had no need to leave.

My family are simple Punjabi folk, we are not well off business people or anything. I think they and all the other expatriate Indians were betrayed by the wealthy brown sahibs who have run India.

I will reply to the comments about sex attacks etc later.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 30 Jun 2013 01:36

matrimc wrote:
eklavya wrote:Why don't you tell us and the office pool. You have already predicted a civil war (many thanks for that), so your prediction on virginity tests is also eagerly awaited. Thanks in advance.

Unfortunately I am taking my advice from a British bookie. It wants me to do a parlay for a far bigger payoff. I am just wondering whether to go for it or not. So, asking people with inside info. :mrgreen:


matrimc, you have a fine way with words, asking as you do for "inside info" on "virginity". :lol:

On a more serious note, virginity is a very rare and uncommon condition in the British isles (since Lalmohan's arrival, it has been virtually eradicated), and the medical profession may not be able to diagnose the symptoms reliably.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 30 Jun 2013 01:58

nageshks wrote:Eklavya-ji - do they teach what they did during the colonial era? Particularly their actions in deliberately causing/exacerbating famines all over the world, to kill numbers that would make Stalin and Mao look like saints?


I don't read school history books, so my answer cannot be taken as the gospel truth. As far as I know, Britain's colonial era record is not critically examined in school books, in the way that (I understand) the Nazi era is critically examined in the German school syllabus. Judge for yourself:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/websites/1 ... tory.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/websites/1 ... tory.shtml

Several British historians have examined the topic critically though, including for TV (i.e. mass consumption), see for example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00cmdkg

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=0XN-wjLI ... XN-wjLIcOc

The British Empire in the 19th century was the largest the world had ever seen, and one of the most idealistic. Simon Schama reveals how, disastrously, the liberal politics and free-market economics that drove it unravelled, resulting in the Irish Potato Famine, and mutiny in India. By the early 20th century, nationalist movements around the globe had turned their back on the British 'workshop of the world'.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 30 Jun 2013 02:31

Abhijeet wrote:Can UK-based posters comment on how the visa bond issue is being seen there? Is it being talked about at all in mainstream media or within the Indian community? Are there any plans to mobilize the community around the issue?


Abhijeet, the Indian (maybe I should say Indian Hindu, as the Sikhs and the Muslims appear to be relatively well organised) community in the UK is not politically organised. I personally am not aware of the "Indian Hindu community" in Britain having mobilised on any issue ever, whether related to religion, or an issue impacting India. The only exception to this general absence of mass mobilisation / mass consciousness is sport, where Indians do turn out in their tens of thousands to cheer on the Indian cricket team. That is not to say many Indian Hindus are not influential e.g. the Hinduja family, Swaraj Paul, etc are genuinely influential. The Indians in the UK will also rely on the Indian government to take up this case.

As for the media, its hard to generalise, but the broadsheet generally considered to be the most authoritative (the Financial Times) does not support the government on the visa bond issue:

The bonds that can neither tie nor scare

June 28, 2013 7:19 pm
The bonds that can neither tie nor scare
By Martin Sandbu

‘Visitors from six Asian and African countries including India, Pakistan and Nigeria are to be charged a £3,000 “bond” on arrival in the UK under a trial scheme to prevent visa overstayers, the Home Office has confirmed.’

Financial Times, June 24

What’s a bond? Sounds a bit like bail.

It’s pretty similar. It’s like a deposit. You have to put money up that you lose if you don’t follow the rules – if you skip your court hearing, for example, in the case of bail. The home secretary’s proposal was that visitors would forfeit their bond if they overstayed their visa. It caused quite a ruckus – but nothing has been decided yet.

India and Nigeria were not happy, apparently. But is it a good idea in principle, to ask people for £3,000 just to visit Britain?

If you want to deter people from coming – or rather, from staying – it has to be a large enough amount to hurt. Otherwise it’s no incentive.

You like that word.

Incentive? Well, it’s about what can change people’s behaviour. When you ask whether something is a good policy, one question is whether the goal that the government is trying to achieve is worthwhile. Another is whether the measures it takes will achieve the goal, however smart or stupid the goal itself is. That is a question of effective incentives.

In this case, the goal...

...is bonkers. The government has promised to cut “net migration” to below 100,000 from about 200,000 in 2009.

Net migration being the difference between people who move to the UK and those who leave?

You see the problem. You can reduce net migration by encouraging Britons to move abroad. Why that should be a public policy goal is beyond me. And the government is sending mixed messages: it is promising a “temperature test” on winter fuel payments – elderly Britons abroad in hot places will lose some income. That’s going to take the lustre off being a British pensioner in Spain.

Not really.

No, you’re right.

In any case, what politicians want is to have fewer foreigners come in, not more Britons leave.

Yes, they drool like Pavlovian dogs over popular fears that foreigners steal jobs and benefits. What politicians should really do is tell the truth: immigrants are not a strain on the public purse.

But you said we can look at how effective a policy is even if its purpose is bonkers. So if you’re hell-bent on keeping foreigners out, is this a way to do it?

In other words: is a migrant bond an effective incentive? It could be, but you need to think about who it affects.

I heard they wanted to apply it only to people at high risk of overstaying their visa.

There is a big exemption: it only applies to “visitors”, which excludes immigrants on work and student visas. That makes sense: business and universities are already up in arms, saying it is getting harder for them to recruit talented workers or students who pay high fees.

But the proposal would catch those who cheat on tourist visas!

You’re too quick. You have to consider three different types of visitor. First, the bond may indeed deter some who plan to use a tourist visa to get in, then stay and work illegally. Facing a loss of £3,000 may make them think twice about coming. Or incite them to leave on time.

But... if they come to work illegally, maybe £3,000 isn’t so high.

Exactly, that’s the second group. You have to reckon that visa overstayers may expect to make a lot more in an informal job in the UK than they would at home. If the difference is more than £3,000 – which it must be for many of those who plan to stay for good – it will be worth it to skip their bail. I mean bond.

What is the last group?

Visitors who were always going to comply with the rules and leave before their visa expires. You’ll obviously deter some of them too – and hurt your tourist trade. If you are not coming to make money illegally, finding three grand just lying around could be a tall order. Think about it – would it make a difference if you had to deposit that sort of money to visit the US, for example?

Hmm. Maybe Canada is nicer at this time of year.

So incentives can be doubled-edged. Of course, if they could exactly identify who was going to overstay and who wasn’t, then they could require a bond from the likely violators only.

Hang on – if you could identify the high-risk people so well, why would you issue them a visitor’s visa in the first place?

Ask the home secretary.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby ramana » 30 Jun 2013 03:16

The following posts on British Paintings of India are too good to be hidden in GDF:

SriKumar wrote:
Singha wrote:this gents is the gyan vapi mosque of varanasi built by the ghazi and bigot aurangzeb by raging a much older shiva temple, depicted in a british era painting
http://tinyurl.com/oqmsp4f
Interesting, so the main minarets fell off after construction....and parts of the original temple exist inside this mosque. British art is definitely a treasure, as a historical record of India in 1700s and 1800s (and 1900s). In an era when photography was not present, paintings (British or otherwise) are the only record of India for that time. And one really good things about it is that the paintings are not just about Rajput/Mughal kings, their harems, horses and whores. There are many paintings which involving common man, street and road-side scenes etc. There are many museums and libraries in the word that exhibit British colonial art.....I went to one a few years ago. It is like viewing a history of India, transported back 200 to 300 years. And more than that, because some of the paintings and photos were of dilapidated structures 1000+ years old and probably destroyed now. Some of the paintings are truly elaborate....done on paper 2 ft x 3ft...entire albums.... some with about 20-30 pictures. One has to appreciate the effort put in by these painters. The colors in some look good even today. There are sketches of Fort St. George (Madras), as seen from sea, sketches of Calcutta (around banks of Hooghly, and probably Chowrangee lane) and other parts of Bengal. Some museums in Canada (with their Biritish heritage) also posses some very good art (by art,I mean it as a record of Indian history). Sometimes I wonder if public was given full and free access to all the archives of the British museums, what more truths would come tumbling out.


Singha wrote:here is treasure trove of 12000 such paintings and sketches. every party of british moving around including war parties seemed to have painters going by the extensive work on srirangapatnam and other forts. some of the names are spelled in a peculiar way but the captions make it clear - ooliyurdroog is infact huliyurdurga on todays magadi road, north of srirangapatnam.

there are some outstanding paintings of scenery, people and architecture here
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/search.h ... 22&rows=12

the arrangement of people, animals and sometimes the vegetation is based on the style of european nature painting of the era. so those of you who have visited the large museums and seen your share of european style landscapes will notice a underlying similarity in the composition.

later there were some indian painters who picked up that style and made a living painting for british tourists and officials.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/cpin/hd_cpin.htm

you are right many of these monuments have vanished and been vandalized for building materials later. those that survived were later restored and cleaned up, but in that era were just rediscovered and the cleanup process started like elephanta caves , ajanta and ellora.


SriKumar wrote:
Singha wrote:here is treasure trove of 12000 such paintings and sketches. every party of british moving around including war parties seemed to have painters going by the extensive work on srirangapatnam and other forts. some of the names are spelled in a peculiar way but the captions make it clear - ooliyurdroog is infact huliyurdurga on todays magadi road, north of srirangapatnam.

there are some outstanding paintings of scenery, people and architecture here
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/search.h ... 22&rows=12

you are right many of these monuments have vanished and been vandalized for building materials later. those that survived were later restored and cleaned up, but in that era were just rediscovered and the cleanup process started like elephanta caves , ajanta and ellora.
My god man. This is unbelievable....all of this on the web. Thousands of pictures....

Fort and Jain Temple (is the temple still there? could not find it with quick google search). The bulge at the base of columns is new (to me anyway).
Click on thumbnail picture on left to get a full-page version.
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/9 ... =1&rows=24

Orderliness in Chitpore Road, Calcutta (circa mid-1800s)
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/9 ... 81&rows=24

Orderliness on Chowraingee Road, Calcutta
http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/9 ... =1&rows=24

There are many other paintings....pilgrims to Gangotree (one can see a picture of a emaciated sanyasi asking for alms
...no different from what we see today). Great link. If only these pics were in an album.

Theo-fidel...... you'll have plenty of street scenes to figure out urban planning in 1800s. One sees 'chromolithographs' in the
link...probably the first name given to color photos. Great link.



Enjoy the historical peek back.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 30 Jun 2013 03:28

Neela wrote:From the BBC: India: A Dangerous Place To Be A Woman
Six months ago, a young medical student was brutally gang-raped on board a bus in the Indian capital Delhi. One of the many horrified at the violence was Radha Bedi, a young British Asian woman, who’s now going to India to uncover the reality of life for women there.


Neela, this documentary is very disturbing. I found it quite shocking. Not sure if those outside the UK can view it. If you can, do so. :(

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby IndraD » 30 Jun 2013 03:51

IMO Indians based in UK (am one of them) see this as discriminatory and unnecessary move.
Most of us think rise of far right party like UKIP in recent election is behind such move,
this is like congress fighting with SP to show who is a better minority champion.
(In UK context who is better 'anti immigrant')
Also it is being linked to recession in UK economy.
There are many Indians who regularly get their parents over to stay with them
this at times is purely for family visit but also to tide over absence of social support to help look after kids
Idea could be to generate a pool of money (going by over 250 000 visitors from India every year) which would be invested in UK .
Came across this funny article generalizing Indians as illegal immigrants written by a brown saheb in toilet paper
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opi ... 823194.cms

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby JwalaMukhi » 30 Jun 2013 05:11

Image
The impoverishment that they engineered is a very solid record. The ukstanis are still salivating that they could cause more wreck and somehow either recapture or destroy the "crown jewel" through proxy like pakistan. Hence profound love for the pakis, a price that ukstanis are willing to pay to fuel the ambition of capturing the red fort. Won't be surprised if pakis are considered as proxy citizens of britannia.
Anything or anyone sniping at India will be encouraged.

The common wealth is a conduit for the sold out to continue the drain. The swiss bank coffers can be only filled by the Common Wealth Games scam and other such conduits.

http://myeconomist.wordpress.com/indias ... wiss-bank/
Black money in Swiss banks — Swiss Banking Association report, 2006 details bank deposits in the territory of Switzerland by nationals of following countries:
Top five
India—- $1,456 billion
Russia —$ 470 billion
UK ——-$390 billion
Ukraine – $100 billion
China —–$ 96 billion

India has more money in Swiss bank than all the other countries combined.Second best Russia has 4 times lesser deposit. US is not even there in the counting in top five.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby ramana » 30 Jun 2013 05:45

And even in cheap espionage novels the Swiss open their books to US all the time. You think these looters are not in US radar?Swiss are allowed to be the bankers so that idiots can park their money there and become potential targets for espionage and suborning.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Jun 2013 09:20

eklavya wrote:
Neela, this documentary is very disturbing. I found it quite shocking. Not sure if those outside the UK can view it. If you can, do so. :(

Sire already tried - no can do. But then do not want to get depressed right now. Tomorrow is time enough. Water under the bridge.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Neela » 30 Jun 2013 11:30

eklavya wrote:


Neela, this documentary is very disturbing. I found it quite shocking. Not sure if those outside the UK can view it. If you can, do so. :(


Eklavya,
I would urge you to read the thread a little bit more in detail to understand the context. Let me be a bit more elaborate.

- There are women's issues and issues with the girl child in India. There is no denying that. Several states have active measures to tackle this. At the legislative level ( Discrete monitoring of Ultrasound equipment used now in several states, using that as evidence against labs and clinics) , educational level ( active programmes for rural folk where discrimination is seen ) and at the social level ( states like TN have rehab programmes for abandoned girl child)

- What I do not like is a country like Britain which has serious issues with pedophilia to lecture India. I think we are smart enough to handle this on our terms.

- What people do not understand that a European view of Indian issues lacks depth, is uni-dimensional and is quick to draw conclusions. They fail to understand the historical and social aspects. simply put: they do not think like we do. And therein lies the danger of applying the wrong solutions to a problem.

- There is no relation between the Delhi rape and attitudes towards the girl child. Yet the BBC makes that premise without an iota of common sense . And then it extends it to a pan-Indian issue with the title.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 30 Jun 2013 13:20

^^^^
That BBC documentary consisted entirely of a British Indian woman (Radha Bedi) speaking to people in India, not a single non-Indian voice is represented.

Britain has every imaginable social ill, but that does not curtail the BBC's freedom to report on those same issues worldwide. If their facts or language are wrong, biased and/or unbalanced, that should be criticised.

The documentary is shocking for what it showed:
- the 15y old victim of an acid attack
- a lawyer who blames the rape victim (for not being 'respectable')
- a girl abandoned as a 2d old
- a doctor who was asked by her educated husband (also a doctor) and in-laws (professors) to terminate her female foetuses
- a girl who was attacked by a number of men as she emerged from a bar/disco
- a young woman who says that if she doesn't keep her elbows out, men in a crowded street will invade her privacy

The documentary also showed that the Delhi Police took immediate action against a shop attendant accused of groping the reporter, and the case was before a special court within a month. They also showed the helplines set up by government to allow women to report incidents of harassment or worse.


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