Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

[Neshant]

Anger is a first step of grieving.

What's the next step after anger.

[Neshant]

its starting..

as soon as Scotland jumps out of the pod, more will follow.

___

There's Another Huge Independence Movement That's About To Send Shockwaves Through Europe

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/there ... 07857.html

[Neshant]

George Galloway (a Scott) on voting Naw to independence

[Kashi]

George Galloway (a Scott) on voting Naw to independence

Looks like another broken jaw in the offering if he crosses Berwick upon Tweed.

But George Galloway??? Does anyone even take him seriously?

[panduranghari]

This could be as monumental as the fall of the Berlin wall with most not even realising it.

Scotland makes up about 8-9% of the UK's population. If they vote for independence, the economic impact on the rest of the UK and the larger world will be marginal. For example, North Sea oil & gas tax revenues amounted to less than £5bn (less than 1% of the UK's tax collection) in 2013-14. As for the political impact, I expect the Tories will find their position strengthened in England & Wales, leading (eventually, once the ongoing fiscal consolidation is over: maybe another 5-10 years) to lower taxes and lower government spending in the rest of the UK; Scotland will head towards higher taxation and higher spending (the SNP has made a big deal of its social commitments); and Scotland (like France) will continue to lose its most productive workers to London (further weakening Scotland's tax base). If Scotland is allowed to keep sterling as their currency (its the most sensible thing to do), they will lose the ability to regulate their financial sector, and indeed even their fiscal policies would have to work within constraints imposed by the Bank of England (which, ironically, may just save their economy from what the SNP would otherwise do to it). There is a chance the UK loses its security council seat (but the US would rather have the UK on the security council than India or Germany or Japan) and decides to not bother with building a new base for the nuclear submarines (as the Scots will not wish to lease Faslane to the rest of the UK permanently), all of which will further improve the rest of the UK's fiscal position. Certainly the rest of the UK will be diminished politically, but financially it will be a (marginal) positive for them.

Your analysis goes against every bit of analysis undertaken by the whos-who of financial, defence, strategic affairs.

[Yagnasri]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-new ... 61098.aspx

and you people think only residual UK is becoming pakiland? "Scottish women"? How UK presstitutes have sold to arab money.

[Rony]

^^

Scotland is liberal left wing country. They want to become Sweden 2.0. There is a reason why Muslims are very enthusiactic supporters of independent scotland as opposed to say Scottish Jews who are mostly unionists. Hindus and Sikhs are in the middle split between yes and no equally like general population.SNP likes to parade its muslim members like Tasmina Sheikh and Hamza Yousaf as voice of independent liberal Scotland. While i will be the first one to cheer the break up of UK, it is equally important to keep on eye on independent scotland least it does not become haven for pakis and islamists (the chance of that happening can't be discarded since labour will be fu.cked in fuk in case of independent scotland and the political space will be shared by center-right tories and extreme right ukip).

[member_28714]

^^

Scotland is liberal left wing country. They want to become Sweden 2.0. There is a reason why Muslims are very enthusiactic supporters of independent scotland as opposed to say Scottish Jews who are mostly unionists. Hindus and Sikhs are in the middle split between yes and no equally like general population.SNP likes to parade its muslim members like Tasmina Sheikh and Hamza Yousaf as voice of independent liberal Scotland. While i will be the first one to cheer the break up of UK, it is equally important to keep on eye on independent scotland least it does not become haven for pakis and islamists (the chance of that happening can't be discarded since labour will be fu.cked in fuk in case of independent scotland and the political space will be shared by center-right tories and extreme right ukip).

so what if scotland gets infested by pakis/islamists? what has scotland done to deserve anyone's sympathy?

[Rony]

so what if scotland gets infested by pakis/islamists? what has scotland done to deserve anyone's sympathy?

I have no love lost for scotland. They were the willing partners of English in plundering India. But just like we keep a eye on Islamists in England, going forward we need to keep an eye on Islamist presence in Scotland as well.

[member_28714]

so what if scotland gets infested by pakis/islamists? what has scotland done to deserve anyone's sympathy?

I have no love lost for scotland. They were the willing partners of English in plundering India. But just like we keep a eye on Islamists in England, going forward we need to keep an eye on Islamist presence in Scotland as well.

true that, aye.

[Suraj]

I have no love lost for scotland. They were the willing partners of English in plundering India. But just like we keep a eye on Islamists in England, going forward we need to keep an eye on Islamist presence in Scotland as well.

Divide (them) and (we) rule onlee.

[member_22733]

Exactly. A broken and divided UQstan (and EU as a whole) with bad blood between the parts is the best thing that can happen to the world, that would be even better than the elimination of Islamic imperialism.

[sudarshan]

Dream scenario for Indian press circa 2020 (and assuming Scotland keeps some of the nuke know-how):

"Nuclear-armed arch-rivals England and Scotland have fought X wars since the 1200's. Scotland accuses its larger, intransigent neighbor of harboring Islamic fanatics from former colonies. England denies the charges, and says it only provides moral, diplomatic, and political support."

And of course, poor India will be covered with confusion, unable to figure out whether it is really Scotland, or England which is the true successor to the United Kingdom.

[member_22733]

Anger is a first step of grieving.

What's the next step after anger.

I know where you are going with this. The next step after anger is work on the ground to constitute a system for redemption. But that stage is far away, first Indians have to realize what they lost and how much because of Brishitstain. That realization itself may not happen in the near future because of the number of colonially hung-over anglophiles in the Indian population. Until then, anger is a justified emotion. That and any possible work or support one can give for the destruction of the political entity called the UK.

[IndraD]

Alex Salmond is like Kejriwal, he is overestimating himself and his support, let the D day come, he will be defeated hands down by people of Scotland

[member_22733]

^^ I have a gut feeling that you are correct. But I hope you are wrong, for the better of the world.

[Neela]

A good hint can come from the markets. If it is spooked by the vote, it would have already shown.
So it is a no then most likely.

[TSJones]

Deleted

[member_22733]

TSJ, please troll elsewhere. And dont make fun of things you cannot understand.

Your ancestors were unwelcome visitors to this place and they murdered everyone around, so I commend you on your typical Yankee arrogance on managing to comment on someone else's grievance.

[member_24580]

Not sure how much you know about Alex Salmond. Do not see any similarities between him and Kejriwal. He is known to be the smartest politician in UK. He has brought SNP from having minimal presence to the single largest party, forming the Govt in Scotland. When the referendum was agreed by David Cameron such was his confidence (or arrogance) that NO would win that he even refused to have the 3rd option about Devo max on the ballot. Compare that to now when the YES are running neck and neck with NO and Westminster is having to resort to desperate measures and have offered much more than Devo max if people vote NO. In all of this whether people vote YES or NO, David Cameron is the only loser and Alex Salmond is the only winner.

Alex Salmond is like Kejriwal, he is overestimating himself and his support, let the D day come, he will be defeated hands down by people of Scotland

[Philip]

The Partition of Britain? Perhaps this would be the best medicine for the Brits who partitioned India.Let the English learn how it feels. I doubt though that there will be "Trains to Scotland" and a traditional bloodbath that once plagued the history of the region.The Scottish referendum whatever the result is showing up even more cracks in the once great British island empire.

And now Manchester! This should gladden the hearts of all Man U. supporters! Manchester,the next "City state?"

'Devo-Manc': Manchester should be given devolution powers like Scotland's potential 'devo-max', says think tank
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 34431.html

A report on devolved powers across English councils comes days before the Scottish referendum on independence
Kashmira Gander

Monday 15 September 2014
Manchester should be given complete control over its spending as part of plans which would see full devolution across England’s cities, a think tank has suggested.

The report by ResPublica comes days before Scotland votes on independence, where a ‘No’ vote would see ‘devo-max’ implemented and extensive new powers handed over to the Parliament at Holyrood.

As the referendum has refocused attention on local powers in the rest of the UK, including England, ResPublica’s suggested in its “Devo Max - Devo Manc” report that a Greater Manchester Combined Authority should be given an elected mayor and assembly akin to London’s.

Under the proposals, the body would first be given power over property taxes, followed by income taxes, and the right to reinvest savings to increase revenue.

Read more: Blair wades into referendum debate with pro-Union plea

The new authority would also be expected to commit to devolving further to localities within its area, according to the report.

Director Phillip Blond said: "For decades we've watched England's cities sliding into decline. This is why England needs devolution.

"Financial freedom must come to Greater Manchester. Its population is bigger than Northern Ireland's. Its economy is bigger than Wales. And it has a higher growth rate than Scotland.

"This is why it should be able to set its own taxes. It should have an elected Mayor.

"These plans outlined in today's report, will allow it to turn its fortunes around, lifting the population out of the doldrums. This is a blueprint for independence for cities in England."

Lord Peter Smith, chair of the Greater Manchester Combined Authority - which brings together the areas 10 existing authorities - said: "We welcome the broad thrust of this independent analysis which makes a case for total devolution to city regions on a scale that recognises the game-changing potential to both reduce public spending and boost growth.

"This full devolution model echoes our ambition, and we welcome ResPublica's view that Greater Manchester would be uniquely placed to pioneer it."

Graham Allen, chair of the Commons political and constitutional reform committee, said: "What is good for Scotland is good for England too where councils will be the vehicle for devolution, ResPublica shows how."

[sudarshan]

I don't think IndraD thought through that comparison. It seems facetious at best. Kejri is a quitter. Salmond doggedly pursued the Yes campaign, year after year, when it seemed hopeless. Only now, at the last minute, does the Yes campaign actually seem like it has a chance of succeeding. All that thanks to Salmond's persistence.

I don't see Salmond being much of a media-hog either, like Kejri. If at all anybody is behaving like Kejri, it is Cameron and the previous English heads - over-confidence and braggadacio, with last-minute furor and panic and dirty tricks galore. Plus pandering to the Islamics on top of that.

[panduranghari]

Alex Salmond is like Kejriwal, he is overestimating himself and his support, let the D day come, he will be defeated hands down by people of Scotland

If you can equate him to Kajra re, you perhaps overestimate Kajra re. Salmond is a good politician. Very cunning and will be Scotland's first prime minister. Unlike Kejriwal - who hijacked BRD anti corruption agitation- scottish independence referendum stands on shoulder of earlier politicians but gained phenomenal momentum under Scottish Smoked Salmond.

[Satya_anveshi]

IMO, the only next best option to "Yes" is a "No" with full scale civil war.

[Philip]

The vote of the remote Scottish regions ,highlands,islands,etc.,will be crucial.Decades ago,I had a taste of the acute hatred of the English by the residents of Skye,so famous in Scottish history as being the island sacred in memory, where Bonnie Prince Charlie after defeat at Culloden,escaped from the mainland and the English fleeing across the waters to Skye immortalised in the famous "Skye Boat Song". Skye until the mid-'90s was accessed only through ferries,which made a short trip across the waters.To crush this symbol of Scottish resolve,the English/British govt. built a huge bridge across the Kyle,totally unnecessary and at immense cost.Every islander I met was infuriated at the English for this atrocity. I can assure you that the islanders of Skye will vote 100% for the Yes campaign.The islanders of Orkney too will in all probability follow suit.

Whatever the result,the die has been cast.We are witnessing the death rattle of the once mighty British Empire.May it RIP ...Rest in Pieces!

Here's a fine version of the famous song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ1PdFN2Kmc

[anupmisra]

This is funny. Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Scottish Independence.

[Vadivel]

[KLNMurthy]

its starting..

as soon as Scotland jumps out of the pod, more will follow.

...

We can only hope that Northern Ireland will follow Scotland; the only reason NI remains in the UK is that the English did enough ethnic cleansing of native Irish to replace them with Scottish Orangemen.

Then we can look forward to Wales turn into New Merlinistan, reverting to Druidism.

[nvishal]

Union or no union, it doesn't affect india.

Whether scotland achieves success as an independent political entity, time will tell.

[Harish]

its starting..

as soon as Scotland jumps out of the pod, more will follow.

...

We can only hope that Northern Ireland will follow Scotland; the only reason NI remains in the UK is that the English did enough ethnic cleansing of native Irish to replace them with Scottish Orangemen.

Then we can look forward to Wales turn into New Merlinistan, reverting to Druidism.

And while we're fixing up the UK, let's give a chunk to the Muslims to run it as a Sharia city-state. Why disappoint them? Aren't they British citizens as well, and been demanding their pound of the flesh for some time now? Like the partition of India removed the cancer of Islamic exclusivism and paved the way for a largely-Hindu India's onward march, removing the Islamic cancer from the streets of London and Manchester will help whats-left-of-the-UK to prosper as well. It's all in the best interests of the English people onlee.

[nvishal]

removing the Islamic cancer from the streets of London and Manchester

Harish, why?

Let me school you.

The above thought is an NRI wet dream. The non-NRI wet dream is the complete opposite.

[saadhak]

Punters in the UK are confidently backing a 'No' vote.
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... um-outcome
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... -vote.html

[Satya_anveshi]

yup that is a safe bet. If you can read the statements from caMoron and queendom that they "urge" people to think seriously then you know the match is fixed. The vote will be No and it is because Scotts have listened to these sh!theads and they still command power/respect of these.

[IndraD]

^^ Agree 100%, it is going to be NO vote
A lot of arm twisting, media bias & cash promise has changed the wind.
Whatever be the result ,UK domestic politics will never be the same

[Philip]

The nation formerly known as the UK
http://www.independent.co.uk/scotlandde ... 36719.html

Whether Scotland votes Yes or No, we will all be forced to look afresh at our national identity. Hamish McRae - part Scottish, part English, raised in Ireland - dares to imagine a divided future

Whatever happens this week, the United Kingdom will be utterly different. The political construct that we call the UK may lose its 300-year identity altogether. That we will soon learn. But even if the UK nominally survives, it will become a much looser association – you might say a less united kingdom – carrying on the process of separation that began just over 100 years ago in May 1914 when Westminster finally passed the Government of Ireland Act, giving Ireland home rule. The First World War intervened, implementation was suspended, and the slither into the troubled subsequent relationship between our two countries continued for the rest of the century. In 1930, King George V remarked to his Prime Minister, Ramsay MacDonald: “What fools we were not to have accepted Gladstone’s Home Rule Bill.”

What fools indeed. Nearly all the public debate about the future relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK has been about economics: the use of the pound, the responsibility for collective national debts, the rights to North Sea oil and gas revenues, the headquarters of the Scottish banks and so on. It has not been about the need to match political structures to identity – what kind of political relationship between the different people who share these islands is most likely to make as many people as possible feel happy and fulfilled. The nitty gritty of currency, North Sea revenues and so on is all fixable. You negotiate and do the deal. But you can’t negotiate about identity, so the deal has to be different. It is one of the paradoxes of our time that the more integrated the world economy has become, the greater the desire for local political control.

But many of us in these islands have multiple identities. For myself, it is being British – part Scottish, part English – but brought up mostly in Ireland, just south of Dublin, where I learnt my economics at Trinity College. Anyone who has lived in Ireland will think differently about England, seeing it with a certain detachment, respecting and being grateful for the opportunities it gives to people who seek to make their lives here, but also being troubled by its arrogance. That sense of detachment applies to people in Scotland, too – my spouse, Frances Cairncross, was brought up near Glasgow. Now we live mostly in London, but for more than 30 years have had a house in south-west Scotland, where we spend as much time as we possibly can. Whether you are in Dublin or Dumfries, Westminster seems a long way away. The difference is that in Dublin, you are in a society that makes its own decisions, good or bad, and takes responsibility for them, whereas in Dumfries, other people seem to make the decisions for you.

Hamish McRae, near his home in Galloway, south-west Scotland, which 'seems a long way away' from Westminster Or, at least, that is what it sometimes feels like. But this sense that Westminster is a long way away applies to much of England, too. One of the changes that will take place in the coming years, irrespective of the outcome of the referendum, is not just that decisions will become more local, but that the outcome of these different decisions will mean that different parts of England and Wales will be competing against each other more vigorously. To people who see competition in negative terms that might seem worrying and divisive. But it may result in more effective policies all round. Competition between American states is one of the drivers of the vibrancy of the nation.

So how might new-UK develop? If the vote is Yes, the game is over. The union of the parliaments of England and Scotland of 1707 will go the same way as the union of the parliaments of the UK and Ireland in 1800. One union lasted just over 100 years, the other just over 300. The question then in the negotiation will be how to avoid the acrimony that characterised the talks with Ireland. There is not going to be a war of independence, nor indeed a civil war as happened in Ireland afterwards. Nor is there going to be partition, even though some parts of Scotland are solidly unionist. The model for the break-up should be the granting of dominion status for Canada or Australia. However, that was also the official status of the Irish Free State between 1922 and 1937, until a new constitution was adopted, making the break complete. So one particular political settlement does not necessarily guarantee an amicable continuing relationship. England will become more English, Scotland more Scottish. The tone of much of the debate in the campaign has been discouraging and we cannot assume it would be a velvet divorce.

If the vote is No, there still will have to be a negotiation, and that may become difficult, too. The closer the outcome, the more difficult it will be. You can sketch the outlines of the deal, with more taxation powers to Scotland, as the three main parties have promised. One simple solution to the North Sea matter would be for Scotland to get the bulk of the revenues but stop having the transfer of funds from the rest of the UK under the Barnett Formula. But the more power that is devolved, the less influence Scotland will have over policy south of the border. Some ministries – the ones where power has been devolved – could not be headed by Scottish MPs. I personally think that it will be impossible for there ever to be another Scottish Prime Minister. Maybe one fix would be to halve the number of Scottish MPs, the solution of the 1914 Government of Ireland Act, and the present situation of Northern Ireland. Another fix would be for Westminster to sit as the parliament of England, with only MPs from English constituencies, for all matters that had been devolved. This would not solve the West Lothian question as to whether members from outside England should vote on matters that affect only England, but it would patch the problem for the time being.

A woman hangs out her washing on the Isle of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides A woman hangs out her washing on the Isle of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides (Reuters) All that would, or will, be for constitutional experts to tackle. My biggest concern is that in the event of a narrow No, the uncertainty about the future relationship would lead to more political and personal acrimony and start doing real economic damage to Scotland. We have caught a glimpse of that in the past few days as depositors have started to move money out of Scotland. In Canada, Quebec had suffered relative to Toronto from separatist pressures since the 1960s, right through two referendums, one only narrowly defeated, to today. In the long term there is no problem. Canada trades successfully with its neighbour the United States; Ireland trades successfully with the UK. But uncertainty does no good to anyone.

There is one further issue. It is how England will feel about itself. It will remain the dominant power of these islands, both in economic terms and population, for the foreseeable future. Within another 25 years, the UK may well have the largest population in Europe, and have the largest economy. Yet whatever the outcome next week the glue that holds the UK together becomes weaker. That suggests that these islands will become more important in economic terms, at least relative to Europe, but maybe find it harder to be assertive politically.

If the UK does break up, the choice will be whether England, plus presumably Wales and Northern Ireland, continue to try to be a mini-US, intervening in the great military and political issues of the world. Or whether it/they should try to be a big Switzerland, prosperous economically and more democratic in the sense that its regions will have a bigger say in policy, but increasingly unwilling to engage in global adventures. But even if it does not break up, I think we have to acknowledge that internal political tensions will increase and the more we become preoccupied with these, the less we are credible as an influence on global events.

Stepping back from a global role may be no bad thing. Politicians, certainly Westminster ones, like to strut about the world stage. The rest of us would just like them to be measured, cautious and competent. Insofar as the events in Scotland have been a wake-up call to all three major parties, then they probably needed it. The prize out there is to find a way of enabling all the people of these islands to get along better with each other. One of the triumphs of the past 20 years has been the transformation of the relationship between Ireland and England – I think England in particular rather than the UK as a whole. The visit of the Queen to Ireland in 2011 and the return visit of President Michael D Higgins to Britain this year have been lessons to all of us who sit between those two cultures. There was a sense of community when the President attended the celebration in the Royal Albert Hall in April that showed that English and Irish people, left to themselves, can get along wonderfully well.

That took a lot of work. I am afraid that some damage has been done to the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK during the past months, so there will be a lot of repair work ahead there, too. Those of us who sit between the cultures, and don’t in any case have a vote, should not, I suggest, tell people in Scotland what to do. But things have to be put back together, whether in the UK or outside it.

Ed Miliband forced to abandon walkabout in Edinburgh
Labour leader harangued by pro-Scottish independence protesters shouting abuse amid media crush

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -walkabout

Severin Carrell
theguardian.com, Tuesday 16 September 2014

Ed Miliband was forced to abandon a walkabout in Edinburgh after he became caught in a crush of media and pro-independence protesters, who drowned out his interviews with shouts of "f**king liar" and "serial murderer".

The Labour leader became the latest politician to be abused and harangued as news of his unannounced visit to meet shop workers and voters at the St James shopping centre in central Edinburgh leaked in advance.

A small group of yes activists ran after reporters and TV crews who had gathered outside the centre as they were ushered inside to watch Miliband's walkabout, leading to chaotic scenes.

The activists began shouting loudly, drowning him out, and adding to the crush of photographers, reporters and Labour activists who had gathered around Miliband, the Scottish Labour leader, Johann Lamont, and Margaret Curran, Labour's shadow Scottish secretary.

During one snatched interview audible over the shouts and chants, Miliband said he was in Edinburgh to argue for "more powers for a stronger Scotland as well as NHS funding guaranteed, and that's got to be weighed up against the big risks of voting yes. And that's the choice people are facing in the last couple of days of this referendum campaign."

"I'm here to meet some voters," he added.
Labour leader harangued by pro-Scottish independence protesters shouting abuse amid media crush
Several attempts to meet shop workers had to be cut short amid the noise and crush, before Miliband was ushered out through a side exit, chased by a throng of news media and protesters.

Miliband's aides said the Labour leader had chatted with shop staff and voters for about five minutes inside the shopping centre, posing with several women for selfies, before the media had been invited in.

He had been surrounded by Labour voters, wellwishers and shoppers eager for photos at previous shopping centres in west Edinburgh, Stirling and outside Glasgow. The party had chosen St James centre for the same reason; they are seen as dry, warm and controlled environments.

Miliband's spokesman said he was not fazed by the disturbances or the crush of media. "It was a bit of a squeeze. We would have liked to have spoken to more actual voters," he said.

[Ardeshir]

Sign this petition to help Scots in England cast their vote. Unlikely to make a difference anyway, but no harm raking up some noise to disturb the peace of our Englistani brethren.
https://www.change.org/p/the-scottish-p ... llace-vote

[Gus]

how a community once lionized as “more British than the British” —

aha..hence the equation british = paki !

[Agnimitra]

Since it looks like looting India was the only thing that kept the English, Scottish and other provincial tribes together as the UK, would it be fair to say that before they came upon India, the British were never a nation?

[kmkraoind]

Omens are not good for Londonistan. If Scotland ever needs money, all they need to say is "we are looking for China and Russia for strategic friendship," then everybody there to pour money in Scotland.

Scottish independence: Man finds piece of KFC chicken that could be shape of new UK

[panduranghari]

Sign this petition to help Scots in England cast their vote. Unlikely to make a difference anyway, but no harm raking up some noise to disturb the peace of our Englistani brethren.
https://www.change.org/p/the-scottish-p ... llace-vote

Actually this is the reason why Scotland may get independence. Scots outside Scotland are not for independence. At least a few friends who are Scottish are not for independence. And they are in the far south as it gets for in the UK.