Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Harish » 17 Sep 2014 14:02

nvishal wrote:
Harish wrote:removing the Islamic cancer from the streets of London and Manchester

Harish, why?

Let me school you.

The above thought is an NRI wet dream. The non-NRI wet dream is the complete opposite.

The only intent is to see the same dysfunctional partition happen to them that they foisted upon India decades ago. Won't it be cool to see the glorious Queen's UK sharing borders with a sharia-pasand-stan that constantly abuses them? :lol:

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Sep 2014 16:30

....even 200 years ago, male literacy rates in Scotland were 50 per cent higher than in England


Full quote:
But the Scottish vision and values are ­different from those that have become dominant south of the Border. ­Scotland has free university education for all; England has been moving ­towards increasing student fees, ­forcing students with parents of limited means to take out loans. Scotland has repeatedly stressed its commitment to the National Health Service; England has repeatedly made moves towards ­privatisation. Some of these differences­ are of long-standing: even 200 years ago, male literacy rates in Scotland were 50 per cent higher than in England, and Scottish universities charged fees that were one tenth of those at Cambridge and Oxford.

from:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/joseph-sti ... -1-3541038

Scotland can make investments in tidal energy, or in its young people; it can strive to increase female labour force participation and provide for early childhood education – both essential for creating a fairer society.

It can make these investments, knowing that the country will recapture more of the benefits from them through taxation. Under current arrangements, while Scotland bears the cost of these social investments, the extra tax revenue resulting from the additional growth resulting from these investments will go overwhelming south of the Border.

The difficult question that Scotland has to face is thus not about arcane issues about monetary arrangements or economies of scope, about the ­minutiae of the short run gains and losses, but whether Scotland’s future – its shared vision and values, a shared ­vision and values that has increasingly departed from those dominant south of the Border – will be better achieved through ­independence.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Haresh » 17 Sep 2014 17:53

Kashmir looks for local lessons in Scottish referendum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29204977

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Singha » 17 Sep 2014 18:16

>> Won't it be cool to see the glorious Queen's UK sharing borders with a sharia-pasand-stan that constantly abuses them?

its the reverse actually, northern Uk centered on birmingham is the seat of the western caliphate while scotland has relatively little of the faithfull.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Ardeshir » 17 Sep 2014 19:09

Haresh wrote:Kashmir looks for local lessons in Scottish referendum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-29204977

These vermin never stop trying to meddle in the affairs of other countries, do they? :roll:

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_22733 » 17 Sep 2014 19:13

Like my mallu friend used to say: I fell down head first in mud but I did not get dirt on my moustache.

This is going one step forward: I fell down head first in mud but YOU have dirt on your moustache.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby anupmisra » 17 Sep 2014 19:19

Ardeshir wrote:These vermin never stop trying to meddle in the affairs of other countries, do they? :roll:


There's a huge Mirpuri contingent that currently calls yUK home. More than that, paki-pasand journalists and liberals are well ensconced in news-rags like the BBC. You may have also noticed that when it comes to the Scottish and Irish affairs, the same liberals suddenly become ultra nationalists (i.e., pro Britannia).

In retrospect, I think the Scottish referendum will turn out to be a bad thing for India (in regards to the J&K issue). Either way, whether its a NO or a Yes vote), the pressure will be on India to follow suit.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_22733 » 17 Sep 2014 19:21

Agnimitra wrote:Since it looks like looting India was the only thing that kept the English, Scottish and other provincial tribes together as the UK, would it be fair to say that before they came upon India, the British were never a nation? :mrgreen:

:D wonderful. I am going to use it when debating the Macaulayputras.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_22733 » 17 Sep 2014 19:25

anupmisra wrote:
Ardeshir wrote:These vermin never stop trying to meddle in the affairs of other countries, do they? :roll:


There's a huge Mirpuri contingent that currently calls yUK home. More than that, paki-pasand journalists and liberals are well ensconced in news-rags like the BBC. You may have also noticed that when it comes to the Scottish and Irish affairs, the same liberals suddenly become ultra nationalists (i.e., pro Britannia).

In retrospect, I think the Scottish referendum will turn out to be a bad thing for India (in regards to the J&K issue). Either way, whether its a NO or a Yes vote), the pressure will be on India to follow suit.


Yes, they should put pressure on Bakistan to restore Cashmere to its original form with identical demographt as of the 1947 jeeehardi invasion.

If the UK or FUK cant do it they could be given as much concern as a rats arse.

Regardless, birth of UQ from union of looters and the looted has no similarity with an internal issue of India.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby dada » 17 Sep 2014 19:45

# anupmishra

Quote "In retrospect, I think the Scottish referendum will turn out to be a bad thing for India (in regards to the J&K issue). Either way, whether its a NO or a Yes vote), the pressure will be on India to follow suit."

Didnt England controlled Scotland for 300 yrs ? . Let India keep Kashmir for 300 yrs+ . Plebiscite if it is to be held , can be held only after that .
Our Future Generations will take care of that . What we have to ensure is that Plebiscite is NOT held until the last kashmiri demanding Independence is alive today .

I strongly suspect that Earth / Ecology / Environmental issues are highly likely to overtake Human social / political / economic / cultural / identity issues ( all man created but which mother nature does not care about !!! ). Till then let Indians play the WAITING GAME !

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby JE Menon » 17 Sep 2014 23:09

>>Let India keep Kashmir for 300 yrs+

India has kept Kashmir for over 3,000 years... no one is planning to let it go. Only question is how to get the territory that is now Pakistan, which was also India until about 70 years ago, minus the lunatix.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Yayavar » 17 Sep 2014 23:22

I wonder if these opinion polls - with sample sizes of 1000 or so - are really capturing the right picture when they show neck and neck. Are the 16-23 going to sway the results towards Yes? Let us hope so.

Anup: England might have a cashmere situation of their own if the No vote is considered tainted - bbc is already in the dock, and if there are other doubts that could happen. The Brit have to tread carefully and be seen to be honest.

Desi Kashmir of course is not going anywhere.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby anupmisra » 17 Sep 2014 23:46

Look, this could be a forum to discuss "what ifs...". We are all educated folks here unlike the baki deaf and dumb bureau. Bravado is one thing but countering possible demands from your trading partners will be another. The argument has to be made in a coherent and rational manner. What if Scotland votes Yes tomorrow and breaks away? What will be India's position then?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Haresh » 17 Sep 2014 23:58

It's karma for the UK.
They have meddled in the affairs of other nations and peoples for centuries, to suit their own selfish needs.

Let the paki bbc put out these stories about Kashmir and Scotland. India is what I call an "eternal" civilisation. It has been around for so long that the UK or former UK is an irrelevance to it.

The UK has had malicious intent towards India since the EIC.
They have wished nothing but ill upon India and now the very thing that they wished upon India has happened to them.
No sympathy.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Agnimitra » 18 Sep 2014 01:18

anupmisra wrote:Look, this could be a forum to discuss "what ifs...". We are all educated folks here unlike the baki deaf and dumb bureau. Bravado is one thing but countering possible demands from your trading partners will be another. The argument has to be made in a coherent and rational manner. What if Scotland votes Yes tomorrow and breaks away? What will be India's position then?

For starters, J&K situ involves a completely different human and ideological dynamic from Scotland. They have ethnically cleansed a large percentage of their own ethnicity based on religion. Violent terrorist war has been inflicted mostly by non-Kashmiri infiltrators trained in Pakistan. Yet, the state enjoys constitutional protection and a privileged status in many ways, contributing much less to the national economy than what it takes. Moreover, unlike Scotland, an independent J&K would *definitely* be a threat to Indian security, serving other interests. Moreover, there is an ugly precedent - The acquiescence to partition has played out for all to see in the most atrocious manner, and India will not countenance giving away another inch of land or resources to such dark forces. No amount of assurances about safety or justice for religious or ideological minorities in a breakaway Muslim state will be convincing enough. Last but not least, it is a civilizational issue at stake. India sees no moral equivalence between Islamism and its own Dharmic pluralism, whereas Scotland is currently the more liberal, pacifist, oil-wealth possessing, exploited and mistreated of the parties in its relations with England.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby A_Gupta » 18 Sep 2014 01:39

anupmisra wrote:Look, this could be a forum to discuss "what ifs...". We are all educated folks here unlike the baki deaf and dumb bureau. Bravado is one thing but countering possible demands from your trading partners will be another. The argument has to be made in a coherent and rational manner. What if Scotland votes Yes tomorrow and breaks away? What will be India's position then?


A Scottish breakaway is possible (just as the Slovak/Czech break-up or the break-up of Yugoslavia) only in the context of the European Union. E.g., to discourage Catalan separatists, the Spanish PM said something like "it would be years and years before an independent Scotland would be admitted into the EU" (that is rubbish, you and I and the bureaucrats in Brussels know that). The point is that the argument was made.

The Scottish breakaway would be like the reorganization of the states in post-Independence India; made possible only because the greater unity was there of India. Since the Indian state is already there, we do not need the equivalent of the European Union. We can imagine an alternative history in which the small states in a not-colonized India eventually created something like the European Union and in which borders were redrawn peaceably; but it isn't necessary to imagine alternative history, because we have the Indian Union, and borders are redrawn within in it peaceably. Meanwhile the European Union struggles with all the imperfections of that union -- in terms of political evolution, India is **way more advanced**.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Agnimitra » 18 Sep 2014 01:46

Great point there. The regional political dynamic of the Union of India in terms of a balanced diversity of interest groups, socioeconomic integration and security is way different from the UK. More countries (Nepal, SL, etc) are likely to join India than any sensible group wanting to break away. Therefore, only violent, insensible, ideologucally-driven groups are likely to be separatist. Last but not least, India has very long and much closer and more evolved experience with being one civilizational unit.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2014 02:17

Moderator Note: Please stop sidetracking this thread with J&K discussions.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Shreeman » 18 Sep 2014 02:26

Logic dictates that No will win, regardless of percentages or the will of the population. Lets see if I am proven wrong.

Anyone else want to forecast the outcome?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Muppalla » 18 Sep 2014 02:41

If Scotland really becomes independent what will be the status of Northern Ireland? Will it not become part of ireland or will it stay with UK? All this may be nothing if Scots stay back.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby ramana » 18 Sep 2014 03:15

Muppalla wrote:If Scotland really becomes independent what will be the status of Northern Ireland? Will it not become part of ireland or will it stay with UK? All this may be nothing if Scots stay back.



Northern Ireland population has been changed by resettling Scottish and English settlers among the Irish.

It wont go with Ireland for sure.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 18 Sep 2014 04:07

New take on an old favourite tomorrow ?
"South of the border,down FUK way..."

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 38371.html
Jean-Paul Faguet
Wednesday 17 September 2014
Scottish independence: David Cameron is becoming the George Bush of Britain
He ignored the referendum and – worse – the Scottish people

Towards the end of 2008, a debate erupted amongst American historians and pundits about whether George W. Bush was the worst president of all time, or merely one of the worst. The case against him rested on a wilful, unnecessary foreign war born of lies that consumed thousands of American lives and untold wealth, and laid waste to poor, benighted Iraq.

With a much longer history, the competition for worst prime minister of the UK is fiercer. But the current incumbent is compiling a record that looks hard to beat. David Cameron is on the verge of losing Scotland, after which it will fall to his Conservative government to oversee the break-up of the United Kingdom. And then, having lost this entirely winnable election, where the weight of economic, geopolitical and historical arguments lay overwhelmingly on his side, he will stumble into an EU referendum to which he foolishly committed. What chance will this diminished political figure and his divided, demoralized troops have of winning that battle? If that election were held today, his chances would be slim. By then he will have none.

And so David Cameron will be the British Prime Minister who lost Scotland and fell out of Europe. As a politician he will be a failure. But for the UK he will be far worse – an historic disaster.

And how unnecessary, how fecklessly incompetent it will all have been. The mistake was not to agree to a Scottish referendum. To the contrary, this was a progressive decision, rightly celebrated, that recognized a people’s democratic right to self-determination. The colossal mistake, rather, was to not fight that contest himself – to fail to commit his government and the nation to its own self-preservation. By handing the campaign over to his political opponents on the assumption that he could never speak to the Scottish heart, it appeared – and he allowed us all to infer – that he did not care. He was too busy to keep the country together. He had more important things to do.

Read more: Scottish independence live
On a knife edge: Two polls put No at 52%
Welcome to the nation formerly known as UK
Analysis: What Yes would mean - the experts' view

Worse still is the extent to which this is the story of a death foretold. Twenty-six years ago another conservative leader held a referendum, this one on his continued rule. He, too, lost what should have been a winnable contest with a campaign based on threats and fear that never listened to voters and took the outcome for granted.The recent film “No” depicts how a team of young, underfunded, brash opponents mounted a campaign based on hope, joy, and a deep belief in the decency of ordinary Chileans, to win an unlikely victory and topple the dictator. I lived through those events, and the echoes in Scotland of fresh hope and a different future are striking.

David Cameron is no Augusto Pinochet, of course. But he has repeated the dictator’s blunders on a far larger scale. He should have spent the last year showing (not just telling) Scottish voters that he, the government, and the British people love Scotland, value Scotland, respect its history, its immense contributions to knowledge, industry, the arts… the list goes on; the argument was an easy one to make. He should have explained that peoples intertwined by history, geography and blood belong together in one nation. He needed to argue passionately, as though he cared, that the Scots are British and the British are Scots, and absence diminishes both. He needed to build a positive, inclusive campaign of hope and possibility that convinced Scots that the politicians pushing for independence are scoundrels bent on self-aggrandisement.

But instead he ignored the referendum and – worse – the Scottish people. He sent others to win them over with a small-minded campaign based on fear; a campaign that ensured that even a narrow victory for the Union would be pyrrhic, grudging, and rather than settling matters would entrench divisions and bitterness on both sides.

In another country and another time, an American president rallied his people by explaining that they had “nothing to fear but fear itself”. In doing so he lit a candle in their darkest hour, ennobled them, and led them to a greater dawn. Cameron told Scots they should be afraid. In doing so he diminished them. Now they are set to return the favour.

Jean-Paul Faguet is Professor of the Political Economy of Development at the London School of Economics and Political Science



Nice link.
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/e ... eywUyKWn4x
Eight things you never realised were Scottish

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby SaiK » 18 Sep 2014 07:41

I think Scotland would automatically become P5, and UK loses its UNSC seat. It is the right time for India to pitch for a P6 resolution, since P5 constituency must legally change.

yahoo!

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2014 08:40

When will the results of the referendum be announced ?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Shreeman » 18 Sep 2014 09:16

Suraj wrote:When will the results of the referendum be announced ?


Trends by evening. Everything final by Friday morning.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2014 09:16

Thank you, Shreeman.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby merlin » 18 Sep 2014 09:30

The Nos' will win by a small margin. Scotland will remain part of GB.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2014 09:35

That seems to be the consensus. However, the fact that it has come to this, will ruin UK in the long term. It will result in a push for subsequent referendums in future, in Scotland, as well as N.Ireland. Further, it will embolden secessionism in western Europe, particularly in Basque and Catalan country in Spain, and of course, Belgium.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_22733 » 18 Sep 2014 09:36

I am familiar with Catalan nationalism. Just a matter of time. Spain is circling the drain and when it gets into real trouble (in the near future), Folks from Catalunya will start making noises.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby RoyG » 18 Sep 2014 09:37

Suraj wrote:That seems to be the consensus. However, the fact that it has come to this, will ruin UK in the long term. It will result in a push for subsequent referendums in future, in Scotland, as well as N.Ireland. Further, it will embolden secessionism in western Europe, particularly in Basque and Catalan country in Spain, and of course, Belgium.


Eh, it won't matter much. They will just move their submarine base and warhead storage base and all will be business as usual. Things won't change much.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_22733 » 18 Sep 2014 09:39

Actually "Yes" camp losing by narrow margin to the "No" camp might leave the $hit festering for a long time. That is a reasonably good outcome IMO.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2014 09:41

LokeshC wrote:I am familiar with Catalan nationalism. Just a matter of time. Spain is circling the drain and when it gets into real trouble (in the near future), Folks from Catalunya will start making noises.

Please post in detail in the India-EU thread.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Yagnasri » 18 Sep 2014 09:49

Just watch fun gurus. If no wins long term low level fun. If yes wins fun only for few years. :D

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_22733 » 18 Sep 2014 09:51

^^^ Suraj ji, This is OT (and I can point to a lot of online sources. Actually Wiki is very credible on this).

Most of what I know from my travels in Barcelona and talking to local folks there. There is a serious undercurrent of resentment and subtle ways that people tell you that they are "not spain". They will speak Catalonian when they can, for ex. This has only been increasing, and I think its correlated with the end of "good times" for Spain.

Will post links on the EU thread later.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby svinayak » 18 Sep 2014 09:53

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme
Origins[edit]
The late 17th century was a difficult period for Scotland. The country's economy was relatively small, its range of exports very limited and it was in a weak position in relation to England, its powerful neighbour (which it was in personal union with, but not yet in political union). In an era of economic rivalry in Europe, Scotland was incapable of protecting itself from the effects of English competition and legislation.[3] The kingdom had no reciprocal export trade and its once thriving industries such as shipbuilding were in deep decline. Goods that were in demand had to be bought from England for sterling, the Navigation Acts further increased economic dependence on England by limiting Scotland's shipping, and the Royal Scots Navy was tiny.[3]

Several ruinous civil wars in the late 1600s had exhausted the people and diminished their resources. In the 1690s there were several years of wide-scale crop failure, which brought famine. This period was referred to as the "ill years". The deteriorating economic position of Scotland led to calls for a favourable political union, or at least a customs union, with England. However, the stronger feeling among Scots was that the country should become a great mercantile and colonial power like England.[3]

In response a number of solutions were enacted by the Parliament of Scotland: in 1695 the Bank of Scotland was established; the Act for the Settling of Schools created a parish-based system of public education throughout Scotland; and the Company of Scotland was chartered with capital to be raised by public subscription to trade with "Africa and the Indies".


The Darien chest, which held the money and documents of the Company of Scotland
In the face of opposition by English commercial interests, the Company of Scotland raised subscriptions in Amsterdam, Hamburg and London for the scheme.[4] For his part, King William III had given only lukewarm support to the whole Scottish colonial endeavour.[a] England was at war with France and hence did not want to offend Spain, which claimed the territory as part of New Granada.[6]

England was also under pressure from the London-based East India Company, who were keen to maintain their monopoly over English foreign trade.[6] It therefore forced the English and Dutch investors to withdraw. Next, the East India Company threatened legal action on the grounds that the Scots had no authority from the king to raise funds outside the English realm, and obliged the promoters to refund subscriptions to the Hamburg investors. This left no source of finance but Scotland itself.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby svinayak » 18 Sep 2014 09:56

This is essentially a rivalry between the Bank of Scotland and Bank of England.

Bank of Scotland could be failing!

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2014 09:56

LokeshC: Yes, please do post more. Most Euro folks keep these undercurrents well hidden from outsiders, not reporting it in the general press much, due to good press management. As a result outsiders have little idea how much resentment and faultlines lie under the surface of posh modern EU 'unity', while those same folks pass pious judgements about what the unwashed turd world people should to do to give 'self determinism' and 'freedom' to our 'oppressed people'. It is important for those who manage to see through their facade firsthand to describe what they learn, in clinical detail. Please take time to write about it when you can, in the EU thread.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby chetak » 18 Sep 2014 09:59

If the independence referendum passes would that see the remainder of the UK walk away Scot-free?

FUK(ed) and far from home :)
Last edited by chetak on 18 Sep 2014 10:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2014 09:59

chetak wrote:If the independence referendum passes would that see the remainder of the UK walk away Scot-free?

:rotfl:

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_27987 » 18 Sep 2014 11:06

LokeshC wrote:^^^ Suraj ji, This is OT (and I can point to a lot of online sources. Actually Wiki is very credible on this).

Most of what I know from my travels in Barcelona and talking to local folks there. There is a serious undercurrent of resentment and subtle ways that people tell you that they are "not spain". They will speak Catalonian when they can, for ex. This has only been increasing, and I think its correlated with the end of "good times" for Spain.

Will post links on the EU thread later.


From one of my NZ coleague, I am hearing that NZ will start considering going the full republic route based on what happens in Scotland. The repurcussions of an independent Scotland is more than one can imagine now.


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