Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

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shyamd
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby shyamd » 26 May 2013 04:25

Comments I made re: MI5 and their capability to tackle terror some time ago

Link
Can't talk about it but they are randomly profiling. The ones that have been caught are the stupid ones - the ones who are boasting on internet forums, talking about it on the phone and all that. They lack understanding of islamism, the way they think and all that at the local level. There are some who are trying to provide some direction to it now. In some locations they are really desperate, so at airports they stop people and asking them to join informant networks (hence the outburst in the article).


MI5 are really directionless at the moment on how to deal with the terror threat.


----
MI6 chief's chilling warning: We can't stop terror attacks

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2013 13:45

The UK government is thinking through what to do about extremism. More arrests in the case as well. BBC report:

Extremism taskforce to be set up after Woolwich

25 May 2013 Last updated at 22:18

The coalition government reviewed Prevent in 2011 - set up after the 2005 London transport network bombings - and said it had uncovered serious failings with the existing policy.

The home secretary said at the time that some of the money was going to groups who should have been confronted, not given funds.

Theresa May also said the relaunched policy should recognise the impact of non-violent extremism.

The government said it would consider blocking some violent and unlawful websites - the Home Office says some filters have already been put in place since the 2011 review and it plans to develop more.

Downing Street wants to look at how serious the scale of radicalisation is, something it says involves "hundreds of individuals".

The prime minister also wants to focus on the range of powers available for dealing with extremist preachers or figures who are "fostering extremism".

Sources say work being done to counter radicalisation in places such as universities and prisons needs to be "maximised".

Scotland Yard said the latest arrests were made in south-east London by detectives from the Counter Terrorism Command supported by specialist firearms officers.

A 24-year-old man and 28-year-old man were arrested at a residential address while a 21-year-old man was held in the street in Charlton Lane, Charlton.

A Taser was used on the 28-year-old man and the 21-year-old but the suspects did not require hospital treatment.

Police said they were also searching four residential addresses in south-east London.

Scotland Yard added that a 29-year-old man arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to murder has been bailed to return pending further inquiries.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2013 17:35

Another BBC report

Woolwich murder probe: 'Thousands' at risk of radicalisation, says Theresa May

26 May 2013 Last updated at 13:19

Thousands of people are potentially at risk of being radicalised in the UK, Home Secretary Theresa May has said.

She also told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show that those at risk were at "different points on what could be a path to violent extremism".

Mrs May said a new taskforce would look at whether new powers were needed to tackle radicalisation.

Analysis
Chris Mason
Political correspondent

The killing of Drummer Lee Rigby has posed a series of questions for the government to grapple with. The central one is this: what more, if anything, can ministers do to reduce the likelihood of other similar attacks?

The Home Secretary Theresa May is very keen on giving the police and intelligence agencies more power to store details of online communications.

There is no such thing as a trade union of former home secretaries. But on this issue, it sounds as though there is. Labour's Lord Reid and Alan Johnson and the Conservative Lord Howard all agree with her. In short, their argument is we have seen the classified files and the spooks need this power. Critics - including most Liberal Democrats - accuse them of going native and backing a "snooper's charter".

The other big question is whether the government's existing policies for dealing with extremism and radicalisation are up to the job.

A so-called "taskforce" will look into this. Money is not everything in devising government policies that work. But critics will point to, and ministers will have to defend, the big cut in the annual budget for the Prevent strategy two years ago.


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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby brihaspati » 26 May 2013 18:27

The pipe dream of preventing radicalization while protecting the claims of complete immunity from any criticism and deconstruction of the core texts of Islam, and allowing the mullahs to preach from the core "unchallengeable" texts!

Uk will not be able to stop this radicalization and even expansion of Islam in UK unless its elite forgoes its profits. It was the one that started the Islamic internationalization and ummah-fication for its own interests in the ME and to beat down non-Muslim non-Christian populations in its colonial empire. Moreover the ME sultanates are its key stop-overs on the neo-imperial network to control and extract resources from IOR.

"shyam rakhu na kula".

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 26 May 2013 23:48

Looks like the authorities are focussing on Anjem Choudary and Al Muhajiroun:

The Daily Telegraph

Woolwich attack: Calls for Anjem Choudary to be placed under a new terror control order

By Robert Mendick, and Robert Watts 7:50AM BST 26 May 2013

It is estimated that one in five terrorists convicted in Britain over the past decade were either members of or linked to al-Muhajiroun, the extremist group founded by Choudary and the exiled preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed.

Choudary, 46, and a lawyer by training, has never been convicted of any offence, much to the frustration of British authorities.

But the revelation last week that al-Muhajiroun had played a large part in radicalising Michael Adebolajo, 28, who is accused of murdering a soldier outside Woolwich Barracks, has renewed pressure on the Home Office to find a way of dealing with Choudary.

Omar Bakri, a Syrian-born cleric, left Britain in the wake of comments made after the July 7 attack on London in 2005 and has been refused permission to come back. He now lives in exile in Lebanon.
But Choudary was born in Britain and went, ironically, to Mulgrave Primary School. It is beside the road where Lee Rigby, the soldier, was murdered.

His British citizenship makes it impossible for authorities to deport him. The recently introduced Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measure (TPim) regime, which was brought in to replace the old control orders, may now be used to try to curb his radical preachings.

Mark Reckless, a Conservative member of the home affairs select committee, said: “If there is clear evidence of him [Choudary] encouraging terrorism or inciting violence then the Home Secretary may want to consider if he’s a fit person to be subject to the TPim regime.”

The TPim regime is less restrictive than the control orders it replaced and which fell foul of human rights legislation.

Last week, Choudary refused to condemn the killings while Omar Bakri, speaking from Lebanon, praised the killers’ “courage” in standing and waiting for police to arrive at the scene rather than fleeing.

Choudary was radicalised in the 1990s. He was a medical student at Southampton University – known to friends as Andy – but failed his first year due to excessive partying.

It has been claimed that in those days, he drank, womanised and took drugs. He switched to law but became embittered when a City law firm turned him down for a well-paid job.

He began attending mosque and his path crossed with Omar Bakri and another radical preacher Abu Hamza, who ran Finsbury Park mosque.

Since those days he has been inseparable from Omar Bakri. He drafted Omar Bakri’s resignation letter from Hizb ut-Tahrir, another radical Islamist organisation, and they established al-Muhajiroun.


An article from 2006:

The unholy past of the Muslim cleric demanding the Pope's execution

This week he stood outside Westminster Cathedral in central London to call for the execution of the Pope as punishment for 'insulting Islam'. He fulminated against Pope Benedict XVl, adding: "Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."

It's a long way from his days as a medical student at Southampton University, where, friends say, he drank, indulged in casual sex, smoked cannabis and even took LSD. He called himself 'Andy' and was famed for his ability to drink a pint of cider in a few seconds.

One former acquaintance said: "At parties, like the rest of us, he was rarely without a joint. The morning after one party, I can remember him getting all the roaches (butts) from the spliffs we had smoked the night before out of the ashtrays, cutting them up and making a new one out of the leftovers.

"He would say he was a Muslim and was proud of his Pakistani heritage, but he did-n't seem to attend any of the mosques in Southampton, and I only knew of him having white girlfriends. He certainly shared a bed with them."

On one occasion, 'Andy' and a friend took LSD together. The friend said: "We took far too much and were hallucinating for 20 hours."

The only sign of religious fervour came in flashes of anger over Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses. A friend from that time said: "You didn't want to get him started on that. He would go on and on about the fatwa and he supported calls for the book to be banned. But he would have a glass of cider in his hand when he was carrying on about it."

In 1996, aged 29, he married Rubana Akhtar and started a family.

Rubana is said by friends to claim £1,700 a month in housing benefit and income support while Choudary has also claimed £202 a month in income support.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby shyamd » 27 May 2013 06:11

^^ which is why there is a conspiracy theory that the govt has a hand in supporting these al muhajiroun types in multiple ways and not just benefits. One method was the anti radicalisation program's ended up funding groups that they were meant to get rid of (which the govt admitted to and reorganised some program's). It's like the govt is supporting the extremists.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Pranav » 27 May 2013 06:39

Apparently the killer was well-known to MI5 (why is this not surprising?) -

Woolwich attack: MI5 'offered job to suspect'

MI5 asked Woolwich murder suspect Michael Adebolajo if he wanted to work for them about six months before the killing, a childhood friend has said.

Abu Nusaybah told BBC Newsnight his friend - one of two men arrested after Drummer Lee Rigby's murder in south-east London on Wednesday - had rejected the approach from the security service.

The BBC could not obtain any confirmation from Whitehall sources.

Abu Nusaybah was arrested at the BBC after giving the interview.

More at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Agnimitra » 27 May 2013 06:43

shyamd wrote:^^ which is why there is a conspiracy theory that the govt has a hand in supporting these al muhajiroun types in multiple ways and not just benefits. One method was the anti radicalisation program's ended up funding groups that they were meant to get rid of (which the govt admitted to and reorganised some program's). It's like the govt is supporting the extremists.

By keeping a minority radicalized, one reinforces it as a "managed solution" in society that can be handled and disposed off neatly via an interactive modus operandi that is clearly in favour of the environment's administrators' control.

If the Anjem Choudharys are taken away and the community's interface with mainstream is superficially de-radicalized, then it gives it the opportunity to dissolve into its mainstream environment as an "unmanaged solution", thereby enabling it to over-write and imprint its effects on those elements of the mainstream it contains within itself.

[Priest-craft: Managed solutions vs. Unmanaged customizations]

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 28 May 2013 03:22

The backlash continues.There must be quite a few former soccer hooligans who are now back in business!

There is really only one cure for Britain's Islamist terror threats.Either deportation or sending them to life-term prison sentences in the modern equivalent of St.Helena....the Falkland Islands.It would be quite far enough away from the British isles to swim back to;if they do manage to escape they would receive a "warm" welcome from the Argies,or a cold one from the penguins in Antarctica . In any case it would give the "sheep-shagger" residents of the Falklands something to do and earn their keep as British citizens!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 33594.html
Ten attacks on mosques since Woolwich murder

As the number of Islamophobic incidents continues to increase, EDL raises temperature with London march
Cahal Milmo Author Biography , Nigel Morris

Monday 27 May 2013

Some reports in the Telegraph in he aftermath of the Woolwich outrage.

Iain Duncan Smith: cut welfare to fund police and Forces

Iain Duncan Smith has offered to cut Britain’s welfare bill by up to another £3 billion annually to protect spending on the Armed Forces and police, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

Spy on your neighbours, says former MI5 head
People who suspect their neighbours may be extremists should inform the security services because “the enemy is everywhere”, says former MI5 head Dame Stella Rimington.

Woolwich aftermath: war memorial vandalised
War memorial vandalised in wake of terror murder
Memorial to members of RAF Bomber Command who sacrificed their lives during the Second World War is daubed with graffiti as tension following the murder of Drummer Lee Rigby intensifies.
Woolwich attack: Michael Adebowale wrote 'gun arrest' school

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 28 May 2013 04:10

In continuation of the above post,the measures being debated by the British govt. and the rise of a new Brit. phenomenon,the EDL or
"English Defence League".They are now calling for the "English Spring"!

Police mounted a massive operation as up to 1,000 supporters of the English Defence League staged a protest outside Downing Street.

EDL marchers chanting anti-Muslim slogans were confronted by anti-fascist demonstrators and bottles were thrown as lines of police officers separated the two groups. Police, some in riot gear, repeatedly had to intervene to stop the rival groups clashing as the EDL marched from Trafalgar Square to Downing Street. EDL leader Tommy Robinson told the demonstration: “They’ve had their Arab Spring. This is time for the English Spring.”


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 33594.html

The number of reported Islamophobic attacks since the Woolwich murder has continued to rise dramatically amid warnings from Muslim community leaders that the backlash which has seen attempted firebombings of mosques is being fuelled by far right groups.

As participants in an English Defence League (EDL) march in Whitehall were recorded giving Nazi-style salutes, Faith Matters, which monitors anti-Muslim hatred, said the number of incidents in the past six days had risen to 193, including ten assaults on mosques. The figure compares to a total of 642 incidents in the previous 12 months – meaning the last week has seen a 15-fold increase on last year’s average of 12 attacks per week.

The spike came as Scotland Yard said it had made a tenth arrest in the investigation into the murder of soldier Lee Rigby on Wednesday. A 50-year-old man was detained on suspicion of conspiracy to murder. Earlier, three men arrested on Saturday were released on police bail.

Fiyaz Mughal, director of Faith Matters, who has been targeted by extremists posting his home address on Twitter and inviting others to shoot him, told The Independent: “There is a significant scale of backlash going on and it is extremely important that it be highlighted. We have been told time and again that the EDL and its like are not a significant issue. But what we have seen in recent days is this sharp increase in rhetoric and then attacks. Our data shows that more than one in three of attacks last year were linked to far-right sympathisers.”

The most serious attack yet took place on Sunday night with the attempted firebombing of a Grimsby mosque. Community elders said the incident, during which three petrol bombs were thrown at the Grimsby Islamic Cultural Centre while people were inside, amounted to “attempted murder”. The attack took place despite an increased police presence following an attack four days ago by a group of teenagers. Humberside Police said it had arrested two men and was investigating messages posted on social media which appeared to incite violence at named locations.

Dr Ahmad Sabik, a member of the mosque committee, told Sky News: “I would say I can describe it as an attempt to murder because what we have got was really serious. It was a fire.”

He added that the mosque’s chairman, who went to extinguish the first petrol bomb, had a narrow escape. “The brother who was coming out of the door, it was just a part of seconds but, alhamdulillah, nothing happened and he was not injured.”

The Yard said it was also investigating the daubing of graffiti overnight on Sunday on two London war memorials. The word “Islam” was sprayed in red paint and inscriptions defaced on the monuments to Bomber Command and animals in war but it was not clear if the perpetrators were Islamist extremists or if it was a further attempt to stir up anti-Muslim feeling.

Police mounted a massive operation as up to 1,000 supporters of the English Defence League staged a protest outside Downing Street.

EDL marchers chanting anti-Muslim slogans were confronted by anti-fascist demonstrators and bottles were thrown as lines of police officers separated the two groups. Police, some in riot gear, repeatedly had to intervene to stop the rival groups clashing as the EDL marched from Trafalgar Square to Downing Street. EDL leader Tommy Robinson told the demonstration: “They’ve had their Arab Spring. This is time for the English Spring.”

Referring to the row over Prime Minister David Cameron’s decision to take a holiday this week in Ibiza, the crowd repeatedly chanted “coward” after Mr Robinson said Mr Cameron had left the country “because he doesn’t care”. Scotland Yard said three arrests had been made.

EDL members congregated after their march. As one youth was taken away by police, the crowd began throwing bottles at them. One officer was hit on the head with a glass bottle and the mob followed the officers, chanting “who the f*** is Allah?”.

Faith Matters said most of the incidents reported to its hotline since last Wednesday’s murder consisted of “general abuse” at Muslims on the streets or over the internet. A further 47 consisted of threats of violence with another 35 minor assaults including eggs being thrown. Elsewhere it emerged that an attempt by the EDL to march on a mosque in York on Sunday had been met by a show of solidarity from the local community when 200 people arrived to show their support.

When only about seven EDL members turned up, they were approached by mosque members and four reportedly entered the mosque for tea and biscuits.

The response: Pros and cons

A fresh effort to combat the spread of violent ideology that leads to terrorism has been promised by David Cameron and Theresa May, the Home Secretary. A new Whitehall committee will draw up proposals for action. What is on the agenda?

Outlawing extremist groups

Proposed: Banning organisations which advocate extremist ideas – even if they fall short of preaching violence.

How it would work: Lowering the threshold at which a group can be proscribed. Currently the Home Secretary can only ban it if it backs, or glorifies, violence

Have we been here before? Yes. Both Tony Blair and David Cameron have floated the idea of outlawing extremist organisations, but balked at the legal problems.

Pros: Terrorists are often radicalised by hardline groups before graduating into a violent ideology.

Cons: How do you define extremism? And where do you draw the line between so-called extremism and the expression of unpalatable views?

Will it happen? It’s hard to see how Ms May will be able to surmount the legal and practical difficulties encountered by the last Government.

Rabble-rousers banned from TV

Proposed: Stopping radical preachers from getting their message across on television.

How it could work: Ofcom could be given the authority to block extremists from getting screen time. Currently the watchdog can only intervene after a broadcast.

Have we been here before? Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein leaders were banned from TV and radio between 1988 and 1994 to, in Margaret Thatcher’s words, “starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend”.

Pros: Television still remains the most immediate way to reach sympathisers.

Cons: The Sinn Fein ban is widely agreed to have been counterproductive by giving its targets victim status. Hard to enforce given the multiplicity of foreign and internet channels.

Will it happen? Floated because of anger over interviews last week with the cleric Anjem Choudary, it could founder over accusations of curbing free speech. Ofcom is unlikely to want to police what interviewees might say.

Snoopers’ charter

Proposed: Requiring telecoms and internet firms to store details of customers’ website visits, calls, text messages and emails. It would cover information about the time and recipients of contacts, but not their contents.

How it could work: Theresa May has legislation, the draft Communications Data Bill, ready to roll out. But it has been vetoed by the Liberal Democrats.

Have we been here before? The last government proposed a similar scheme, creating a vast central database of message and internet details. It was abandoned in the face of civil liberties objections.

Pros: Terrorist networks use sophisticated techniques to evade detection and the legislation would enable the security services to keep pace.

Cons: No suggestion the Woolwich murders could have been foiled using this legislation and detectives already have extensive powers to track terror suspects.

Will it happen? Both the Tories and Labour support the move in principle. Ms May might try to negotiate a compromise with the Lib Dems.

Tackling extremist websites

Proposed: Tougher scrutiny of internet sites with the aim of rapidly removing websites supporting violence or glorifying terrorism.

How it could work: Almost 5,700 separate items judged to be inflammatory have been removed from the internet in the last three years. It’s not clear how Ms May envisages powers could be strengthened in this area. Internet companies could face legislation if they fail to act voluntarily.

Have we been here before? Extremist websites were first targeted by Tony Blair after the July 7 bombings in 2005.

Pros: Militant groups have proved adept at using the internet to influence followers and instruct them in terrorist techniques.

Cons: A daunting task given the scale of the internet and the ease with which extremists can set up a new website almost as soon as one is removed by the authorities.

Will it happen? It is happening already – the Home Office says police are “scaling up” operations against militant websites. However, further legislation could be complex and time-consuming.

Tackling radicalisation

Proposed: Further efforts to tackle recruitment by militants in campuses, prisons and on the streets.

How it could work: Requiring colleges to banish extremist preachers from the premises, extra work with susceptible prisoners and obliging mosque committees to monitor speakers.

Have we been here before? The last Government set up the Prevent programme to tackle radicalisation at its root; this administration has opted for more targeted work.

Pros: Helps divert people from violence before they become dangerous.

Cons: Expensive work, particularly given current austerity measures, and critics say it puts too much responsibility on universities and community leaders.

Will it happen? Yes. The Government will be under pressure to reverse recent cuts to the Prevent programme.

Nigel Morris

Suspect filmed praying before Paris attack

The man who attacked a French soldier in Paris was praying moments before slashing the neck of his victim with a knife or box cutter, according to video footage from the scene.

“He was filmed praying near the scene of the attack” at a shopping centre in La Défense business district, sources close to the investigation told Le Parisien. The suspect is being hunted by police who said yesterday that the investigation is progressing.

His victim, Cédric Cordiez, 23, was discharged from hospital today after telling journalists that he was “feeling fine”.

Interior Minister Manuel Valls told the Canal+ pay-TV channel that the incident bore “similarities” to the Woolwich attack.

Anne Penketh

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 28 May 2013 05:39

What are the chances and a time frame for a civil war starting in UK?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby RajeshA » 28 May 2013 09:30

Related to Scottish Independence proposal

Scotland's Economy: the case for independence

Published on May 21, 2013
At-a-glance: Scotland's economy post-independence: BBC

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 28 May 2013 13:21

The attack in Scotland recently of the UKIP leader Farrage,who was chased out off Scotland by irate Scots and the latest arrival of the "EDL",indicates that a strong right-wing movement,some bordering on the extreme has risen in England,mainly due to the policy of appeasement of Islamist terror,vested-interest immigration vote-bank policies by Socialist and Labour parties,that is now tearing England apart from within.Fortunately Scotland has been spared the brunt of the problem,and the relative peacefulness in Scotland might very well tip the electoral scales when the referendum on Scottish Independence comes up.The gap between England and Scotland is widening slowly,but ever widening .

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby vinod » 28 May 2013 15:14

matrimc wrote:What are the chances and a time frame for a civil war starting in UK?

UK is a tiny country! No civil war is going to happen. At the most right wing parties will have bigger say and see more attacks on non-whites (obviously includes non-muslims). Already I'm seeing lesser brown faces in tills and other client facing jobs. Nowadays, they have been replaced by east european immigrants(whites) since they are equally cheap. So, my guess is that more browns will be unemployed and the majority muslims will be more susceptible to radicalisation. So, if the economy goes for a toss, we can expect lot more attacks like these.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 28 May 2013 18:24

3 muslim prisoners took a white prison warden hostage on sunday - now released. counter terrorism squad is investigating
incident is under wraps but is being treated as very serious - speculation is that they were trying to repeat a woolwich style attack

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 28 May 2013 18:44

matrimc wrote:What are the chances and a time frame for a civil war starting in UK?


Chances are 100%, timeframe is 1642-51. Normally happens when the King is called Charles, so who knows, another episode might be due soon, but QEII is only 87 and her mum carried on until 101+ (approximately when Tendulkar will retire from the Indian test team, unless test cricket is abolished first). Proximate cause of major civil disturbances in England these days is typically tax (local taxes, fuel taxes, etc), not religion. Britain has seen far worse Catholic-Protestant tensions in the past. Probably higher probability of civil war in the US where the public owns 1000000000000 guns as a constitutional right.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 28 May 2013 21:12

> Probably higher probability of civil war in the US where the public owns 1000000000000 guns as a
> constitutional right.

eklavya ji,

since we are going on US bashing tangent, may be there is a parallel to 1779.

>> Proximate cause of major civil disturbances in England these days is typically tax (local taxes, fuel taxes, etc), not religion.

So you had Cromwell the regicide circa 1650, American revolution circa 1770, First Indian Freedom Struggle (or is the PC term Mutiny?) circa 1860, downhill skiing in the face of khaddar wearing, charkha wielding, emaciated commoners circa 1950. So the next one is due about 2030-50. After every such armed/peaceful revolution, there was reconstruction and the world has benefited - Royal Society and Industrial Revolution, Written constitution and the rise of the individualism, unprecedented technological progress, coming together of the people of the subcontinent (or is it PC to say South Asia?), and a working proof that ahimsa and civil disobedience can work in the large too leading to MLK and end of segregation.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 29 May 2013 15:09

matrimc, as expected, you took the US bait (Where's that Green Card you promised me? Did you mention global income tax? On second thoughts, shred that Green Card.) and not the Tendulkar one (maybe you thought it wasn't a joke :) ). You forgot about the American civil war ca. 1861-65, which as far as I can tell is still the basis of US politics in 2013, except that the Confederates have started voting for Lincoln's party: a century is a long-time in politics.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 May 2013 00:09

eklavya, no problem bait as much as you want in the Indo-US thread. Unfortunately (for you?) there is no UK-US thread. Speaking for myself, I would prefer to highlight UK (and its past and present perfidy vis-a-vis India) and predict its politico-economic trajectory. It is important for India but not so much for US. Reminds me of Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. In one scene she tells Richard Gere that there is no need for him to seduce her - she is a sure shot thing.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 30 May 2013 07:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 30 May 2013 03:14

Lal,you're quite right.Cameron returned immediately,as he well understood the implications of this savage attack.It could be the "last straw",that sets off ethno-racial attacks across Britain.The jihadis,who are so well indoctrinated,or well on their way to lunacy,couldn't care a fig about losing their lives ,as they expect their sultry rewards in the afterlife.In recent times,especially when England is playing,the flying of the flag of St.George in the UK has seen an upswing.This attack is not going to be the last.Other jihadis will feel exhilirated by the success of their "brothers",and copycat or similar murderous attacks are the nightmare of the British govt.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby rgsrini » 30 May 2013 19:16

The disgraceful rudyard kipling was not only a racist, he was also a thief.
Kipling's letter admitting plagiarism in The Jungle Book up for sale

... and he wasn't ashamed of it as well.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 01 Jun 2013 13:51

Kipling's Jungle Book draws heavily upon ancient Indian folk stories,no Q there at all.That he wrote these books with unforgettable characters like Mowgli and Kim,celebrated India for the world to enjoy.That he was also a product of the imperial age is undisputed. He was a man of his times,where to the British/English particularly,"God was an Englishman","the sun never set upon the British Empire",and that the British civil servants were the "heaven born"! He was a victim of his information boundary,where the Euroepans in general,thought that their civilisation,etc. was superior to that of the "native",which they were ignorant of and the cultural heritage of India,spanning millenia. The Chinese too had and still have the same arrogance,of being the "Middle Kingdom",between heaven and earth,with the rest of mankind being mere barbarians!

The wheel has turned full circle though.Britishers today have a far better understanding of India and its great cultural and religious heritage. I met recently a descendant of both Lord Curzon and Robert Clive,of high British nobility,someone who spends a lot of time in India,wears Indian clothing,more Indian than English,and supports a cancer hospice in Rishikesh through the sale of produce from the estate back in Blighty. Then there is the case of Pepita Seth,wife of Roshan Seth,the actor,who has devoted her life to studying the Theyyam ritual in Kerala and whom the Guruvayoor temple has in a unique gesture ,allowed her special permission to study its history,etc.

Now for some most interesting news.The secret Bilderberg Group,of the key movers and shakers of the western world will have their secret meeting this year in Britain,where the massive bill for security will be picked up by the British taxpayer.Read on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... urity.html

British taxpayers to pay 'millions' towards secretive Bilderberg meeting security
Taxpayers are likely to have to pay millions towards the cost of policing the secretive Bilderberg meeting of the global elite due to gather in Hertfordshire next week. The Group has been accused of manipulating world events to further the cause of the members
and member states.Some have accused them of plotting the Arab Spring and even rousing anti-Islamic sentiment,as the man married to the owner of the newspaper which published offensive cartoons of the prophet M,was allegedly a member.

By Rowena Mason, Political correspondent

3:31PM BST 30 May 2013

The clandestine meeting of royalty, prime ministers and business chiefs is taking place in Britain for the first time since 1998, sparking fears of "violence and disturbance" by protesters.

The Bilderberg organisers, who include Tory Cabinet minister Ken Clarke, do not release a guest list but a roll-call of luminaries are expected to descend on a luxury Watford hotel from June 6, forcing police to step up security.

Hertfordshire police have refused to release the cost of security for the event, which has previously drawn anti-capitalist demonstrators in other locations around the world.

However, they are in talks with the Home Office about a grant for "unexpected or exceptional costs" that is only given out if it threatens the stability of the force's policing budget. The final bill would have to total more than one per cent of the police force's overall spend - or about £1.8 million - for the grant to be successful.

The invitation-only Bilderberg meetings are attended by around 140 members of the international elite.
Related Articles

The Bilderberg Group conspiracy theories
04 Jun 2010

Previous guests are thought to have included Henry Kissinger, David Rockefeller, Prince Charles, Peter Mandelson, David Cameron and Queen Beatrix of Holland but the list of attendees is different every year.

The cloak of secrecy surrounding the meetings, which ban journalists from attending, has fuelled conspiracy theories that so-called Bilderbergers are planning global domination and world unification.

However, the event is most often likened to a political version of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, which draws members of high society to discuss business and the economy.

Its steering commitee includes Mr Clarke, Cabinet minister without portfolio, Thomas Enders, chief executive of defence company EADS, and Peter Sutherland, the chairman of Goldman Sachs.

Some activists have decided to hold a Bilderberg Fringe Festival - described by its organisers as a peaceful weekend of speakers, comedy, music, workshops, arts and entertainment nearby. However, Dorothy Thornhill, the mayor of Watford, has raised fears that the summit could also bring "violence."

She told the Watford Observer: “I have my concerns about it because it does attract people who can and do cause violence and disturbance.

“But I am confident the police will be able to minimise that and give them their right to protest.

“I am ambivalent about whether this is a good thing. It’s potentially a positive thing as long as things don’t kick off.

Hertfordshire Police said the Bilderberg Group has agreed to contribute some of the cost of security, but taxpayers will have to cover the rest of the bill.

The force said it could not yet estimate the cost to the taxpayer of policing the event or whether it will need to draw on reinforcements from nearby forces.

"The organisers of the event are paying for a private security firm who will be providing security at the venue," the spokesman said.

"In addition, the organisers have agreed to contribute towards policing costs relating to the event.

"As we do not disclose the costs of operations prior to their event, we will not disclose the amounts at this stage."

The last time the Bilderberg Group met in Britain was in Turnberry in Scotland in 1998. This year's event will be at the Grove Hotel in Watford, which has been booked out for the duration of the conference from 6th to 9th June.


Here is an expose of the cartoon controversy.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/socio ... hood13.htm

Xcpt:
Bilderbergs

and The Denmark Cartoons
by Anwaar Hussain

February 7, 2006

from UrukNet Website


The derogatory cartoons that have the Islamic world in throes of violent protests were first published in September 2005 by Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten.



They were later republished in Austria in January, and then at the beginning of February in a number of European newspapers in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and Spain.

There have since been angry and sometimes violent protests across the Islamic world, Britain and France. At least six deaths have been reported thus far. A hornets’ nest has been stirred with the end of the rapidly escalating crisis nowhere in sight.

Has it all happened innocuously and accidentally or is it a deliberate attempt towards an ulterior motive? To answer this question let us go back in time to May 2005.

Only four months before the crisis, between May 5 to May 8, 2005, a group of powerful men from today’s finance, industry and politics huddled together in the warm and cozy rooms of the 5-star Dorint Sofitel Seehotel Überfahrt in Rottach-Egern, Germany. Outside the hotel, private and state guards patrolled with automatic weapons and sniffer dogs. The gray Bavarian skies rained on.

This secretive cabal of powerful men otherwise goes by the name of Bilderberg Group (a simple Google query will throw up thousands of results). The Bilderberg Group is the only private international organization that Time magazine rated 10 for secrecy on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most secret).

So what do the defamatory cartoons have to do with the Bilderbergs? Let us first have a look at the names of just some of the attendees of the May 2005 conference.



These were:

Josef Ackermann, Chairman, Group Executive Committee. Deutsche Bank AG, Germany

Joaquin Almunia Amann, Commissioner, European Commission

José M. Durno Barroso, President, European Commission, Portugal

Franco Bernabe, Vice Chairman, Rothschild Europe, Italy

Martin S. Feldstein, President and CEO, National Bureau of Economic Research, U.S.A.

William C. Ford, Jr., Chairman and CEO, Ford Motor Company, U.S.A.

Timothy F. Geithner, President, Federal Reserve Bank of New York, U.S.A

Donald E. Graham, Chairman and CEO, The Washington Post Company, U.S.A.

Richard N. Haass, President, Council on Foreign Relations, U.S.A.

Jaap Hoop de Scheffer, Secretary General, NATO, Netherlands

Allan B. Hubbard, Assistant to the President for Economic Policy and Director of the National Economic Council, U.S.A.

John M. Keane, President, GSI, LLC; General, US Army, Retired, U.S.A.

Henry A. Kissinger, Chairman, Kissinger Associates, Inc., U.S.A.

Neelie Kroes, Commissioner, European Commission

Michael A.Ledeen, American Enterprise Institute, U.S.A.

William J. Luti, Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Near Eastern & South Asian Affairs, U.S.A.

Jessica T. Mathews, President, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, U.S.A.

Kenneth B. Mehlman, Chairman, Republican National Committee, U.S.A.

Elena Nemirovskaya, Founder and Director, Moscow School of Political Studies, Russia

Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands

Andrzej Olechowski, Leader Civic Platform, Poland

Norman Pearlstine, Editor-in-Chief, Time Inc., U.S.A.

Richard N. Perle, Resident Fellow, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research, U.S.A.

Friedbert Pflüger, Member of Parliament, CDU/CSU Fraktion, Germany

H.R.H. Prince Philippe, Belgium

Rato y Figaredo, Rodrigo de, Managing Director, IMF

David Rockefeller, Member, JP Morgan International Council, U.S.A.

Judith Rodin, President, The Rockefeller Foundation, U.S.A.

Dennis B. Ross, Director, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy, U.S.A.

H.M. the Queen of Spain

Peter D. Sutherland, Chairman, Goldman Sachs International

Jean-Claude Trichet, Governor, European Central Bank

James D. Wolfensohn, President, The World Bank, U.S.A.

Paul Wolfowitz, President designate, The World Bank, U.S.A.

And of course there were the usual prime ministers and U.S. government officials. Also present were the movers and shakers of the Western media including media heads from almost all the countries whose press chose to publish the insulting cartoons. The names of Messers Michael Ledeen, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz, however, must ring some bells. (Click here for the complete list)

Also on the list of attendees was one Anders Eldrep from Denmark. Anders Eldrep (sometimes spelled as Eldrup) happens to be married to one Merete Eldrep. This lady is the managing director of company JP/Politikens Hus (JP for Jyllands-Posten) that published the slanderous anti-Islamic cartoons in Denmark.

Neither Anders Eldrep is an ordinary Tom, Dick or Harry nor his wife exactly a babe in woods not to have understood the repercussions of their actions.

Merete Eldrep, the wife, is a former Head of Secretariat at the Ministry of Economic and Business Affairs and Deputy Director of the Danish Energy Authority.

And Anders Elderp, her illustrious husband, is the current Chairman of Denmark’s Oil and Natural Gas Company DONG and has been Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Danish Finance up to the year 2001. He also has attended the last FIVE Bilderberg meetings thus far. Interestingly, a previous editor-in-chief of ’Politiken’, another of JP/Politikens Hus’s newspapers, namely Toger Seidenfaden, too was a long-time Bilderberger.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Prem » 01 Jun 2013 22:51


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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Jun 2013 02:29

I don't know about the Bilderberg group, but the Uberfahrt (umlaut or no) was appropriate to host such a group.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Prem » 02 Jun 2013 06:35

List of UK Politicians who supported UAF demo with killer Michael Adebolajo held in 2009 outside Harrow mosque celebrating 9/11.David Cameron Prime Minister email him here https://email.number10.gov.uk/


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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 05 Jun 2013 04:26

This incident reminds me of that old Afghan ditty!

"There's a boy across the river,
with a bottom like a peach,
but alas,alas,I cannot swim!"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ilians.htm

British soldiers sentenced for abusing civilians
Two British soldiers were today sentenced for abusing civilians, including children, during the war in Afghanistan.

A 22-year-old former serviceman was fined £1,000 for two charges of conduct to the prejudice of good order and service discipline, while a 23-year-old serving officer was reduced to the ranks for a racially aggravated offence.

Both men, neither of whom can be named for legal reasons, plead guilty to the abuse at a court martial in Sennelager, Germany.

The former private, referred to as Soldier X to avoid reprisals against him and his family, admitted pulling the hand of an Afghan child towards his crotch while saying "Touch my special place".

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Jun 2013 04:39

@Philip ^^^: "...."the sun never set upon the British Empire". That is only because God was afraid to trust an Englishman in the dark.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Jun 2013 04:43

vinod wrote:
matrimc wrote:What are the chances and a time frame for a civil war starting in UK?

UK is a tiny country! No civil war is going to happen. At the most right wing parties will have bigger say and see more attacks on non-whites (obviously includes non-muslims). ...


Mostly non-Muslims. The Sikhs will get it first followed by the SDREs. But! this exactly what the jihadis want—the Hezbollah defense. Hide among your second rung enemy and get them killed by the first rung.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Sachin » 05 Jun 2013 09:38

Philip wrote:Then there is the case of Pepita Seth,wife of Roshan Seth,the actor,who has devoted her life to studying the Theyyam ritual in Kerala and whom the Guruvayoor temple has in a unique gesture ,allowed her special permission to study its history,etc.

Pepita Seth's (nee Noble) book on Gurvayur temple - "Heaven on Earth" (Bhooloka vaikuntham) seems to be an encyclopedia on the temple. I have read this book, and more than the rituals, heritage etc. she has also documented the lifes of people associated with the temple. Her love for India started after reading the diaries of her great-grand father who was a soldier in India, during the days of the Raj.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby panduranghari » 05 Jun 2013 11:20

vinod wrote:
matrimc wrote:What are the chances and a time frame for a civil war starting in UK?

UK is a tiny country! No civil war is going to happen. At the most right wing parties will have bigger say and see more attacks on non-whites (obviously includes non-muslims). Already I'm seeing lesser brown faces in tills and other client facing jobs. Nowadays, they have been replaced by east european immigrants(whites) since they are equally cheap. So, my guess is that more browns will be unemployed and the majority muslims will be more susceptible to radicalisation. So, if the economy goes for a toss, we can expect lot more attacks like these.


That may be. However most newspaper owners are right of centre though the editorial board some how seems left of the centre. It's been this way for a while even in 1970's during strikes.

The editorial board can change track but they will not. Removing Murdoch from the control of UK media was not a superficial game as some may think. There was a deep seated dislike for this man who converted UK media from socialist mindset to a leftist mindset.

There will be civil war but not like what we are accustomed to see in ME. 2010 london riots had they happened in Paris would be called as French spring. But there will be problems for brown people in the UK in the not so distant future. I am willing to bet on it.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Jun 2013 12:00

i am not so sure, the british isles have a tendency to absorb outsiders - for the past several thousand years. even in recent times there have been many waves of outsiders who have come and been absorbed. sdre's are well on the way to absorption (in a peaceful way - despite early problems). the current hassle is with east europeans (but they are likely to go away when the economic opportunities dry up) and the bearded people. they don't even fit the model of the underclass with whom to merge

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby panduranghari » 05 Jun 2013 12:31

Lalmohan wrote:i am not so sure, the british isles have a tendency to absorb outsiders - for the past several thousand years. even in recent times there have been many waves of outsiders who have come and been absorbed. sdre's are well on the way to absorption (in a peaceful way - despite early problems). the current hassle is with east europeans (but they are likely to go away when the economic opportunities dry up) and the bearded people. they don't even fit the model of the underclass with whom to merge


Most of the coloured migration is post WW2. Earlier migrations were not like the recent ones. Hugenots, Jews etc who migrated in earlier centuries still were white. Unlike SDREs or ME Arabs. I guess time will tell.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Jun 2013 13:39

previous generations of black and brown have also come, even in roman times, but particularly in victorian and georgian times

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 06 Jun 2013 01:04

It would be difficult to recognize civil wars in {{some western countries}, US, India, Japan, Australia} which have secular democratic/republican governments. These would not be of the violent kind but more on the lines of civil disobedience and may even be large scale rioting where the antagonists are going to come to the round table.

Could UK be a special case, I wonder. According to the following two Wikipedia entries The Social structure of the United Kingdom and the survye, a rigid hierarchical, unidirectional (higher resistance to move up but due to the hereditary nature of wealth easy to move down) birth and wealth based caste structure seems to be alive and well in spite of all the loud protestations to the contrary.

Also, there is this strange term "Cultural Capital". A careful reading of the above two links gives an impression that it is indeed tangible, at least to the British.

That kind of a social structure and the words used (especially if they have some tangible benefits to people who are perceived to be "elite") might push not only the recent immigrants but even those "C word which is same as the N word" to react in unpredictable ways when access to good public educational institutions is curtailed based on some pseudo-scientific sociological categorizations. Using "C word" as knaves (cannon fodder to be sacrificed to the pikes in the first two are three charges) in distant wars so that knights riding high horses can come sweeping in later to mop up the loot.

Are there any exemplary self-made UK billionaires (Royalty pliss to excuse) who are following in the foot steps of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby IndraD » 06 Jun 2013 01:22

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ed-in.html

Is this revenge for Lee Rigby's murder? Right-wing 'EDL' graffiti is found on London Islamic community centre which was torched in arson attack

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 06 Jun 2013 15:00

The day you know you have truly arrived on the global stage,is when the Bilderberg Group invites you to their annual jamboree,this time taking place in Britain.As one critic says,"it's not a conspiracy theory,it is a conspiracy reality"! This is the world's most powerful and influential club ever invented.Forget about the UN,that is a sideshow,a tamasha, a charade,to paraphrase Napoleon," upon which we are all agreed".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... world.html
Bilderberg Group? No conspiracy, just the most influential group in the world
Conspiracy theorists claim it is a shadow world government. Former leading members tell the Telegraph it was the most useful meeting they ever went to and it was crucial in forming the European Union. Today, the Bilderberg Group meets in Britain.

(Clockwise from left) Christine Lagarde, a protester from the 2012 meeting in Virginia, Henry Kissinger, George Osborne and David Petraeus Photo: PA/REUTERS/AP
Matthew Holehouse

By Matthew Holehouse

9:56AM BST 06 Jun 2013

“The abuse is terrible,” said Peter Mandelson, leading the walking party through the throng of protesters and carrying the group’s uniform orange ski jacket under his arm.

Amid the din, Peer Steinbruck, the former German Finance Minister, pointedly refused to break off his conversation with Thomas Enders, the head of defence giant EADS. Behind him, Eric Schmidt, the Google founder, picked up the pace along the narrow road and kept his eyes fixed on the Suvretta hotel ahead. Franco Bernabe, the vice chairman of Rothschild Europe, grinned through the chorus of booing and chanting in German down megaphones, before ducking under the police tape and into the safety of the hotel's grounds.

It was June 2011. Demonstrations were sweeping through the stricken eurozone, China and North Africa. And in tranquil St Moritz, high in the Swiss alps, half a dozen of the most powerful men in the West had taken a break from a weekend of intensive and strictly confidential debate to walk in the woods, when their paths crossed with the protesters who had come from around the world to keep an eye on them.

The gathering was entirely innocent, the walking party would insist. But what were they doing there?

No such encounters will take place in Watford this week, as the Bilderberg, the annual conference for 140 of the world’s most powerful, meet for four days at The Grove, a £300-a-night golf hotel close to the M25. The entire hotel has been booked out, and a high fence erected around the exclusion zone. Armed checkpoints have been set up on local roads, and locals must show their passports to enter their own driveways. The Home Office may foot the bill. A US news site dedicated to uncovering conspiracies had booked a room for last week but were told by phone not to turn up.
Related Articles

Bilderberg guest list and agenda
06 Jun 2013

The Bilderberg was founded in 1954 to bring the leaders of Western Europe and the United States closer as the Soviet Union cemented its control of the Eastern bloc. They met first at the Bilderberg Hotel, near Arnhem, at the instigation of Joseph Retinger, a Polish polio victim who had fought the Nazis during the war. Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands was the chair. In that first meeting, the participants – including bankers, economists, and the future Labour leader Hugh Gaitskell – debated the Communist threat and the prospect of European integration.

Publicly, the group says it is still merely a debating society – a forum for leaders to "listen, reflect and gather insights" unbound by official policy positions.

But while they rankle at the conspiracy theorists, former leaders of the Bilderberg confences says they were the most important events they ever went to, and the freedom of speaking away from the ears of Whitehall officials meant the discussions that took place decisively shaped modern Europe.

It is above all a club for life’s winners. George Osborne, Ed Balls and Ken Clarke, the Cabinet Minister who also serves on the group’s steering committee, will arrive this afternoon, as will Mr Mandelson. They will be joined by Jose Manuel Barroso, the President of the European Commission; Christine Lagarde, the head of the IMF; Francois Fillon, the former French Prime Minister; Robert Rubin and Timothy Geithner, the former secretaries to the US Treasury; and serving prime ministers, foreign ministers and finance ministers from across north west Europe.

The chairmen and chief executives of some of the world’s biggest businesses will attend, with a combined wealth running into hundreds of millions of pounds – from Deutsche Bank, Barclays, Amazon, Google, Shell, HSBC, Lazard, Prudential and Alcoa. Henri de Castries, the chairman of the Bilderberg, is the head of AXA, the insurance giant. Peter Thiel, the billionaire founder of PayPal, is also on the guest list. Goldman Sachs and BP have in recent years been donors to the British committee organising this week's gathering.

Then there are the defence officials: Olivier de Bavinchove, the commander of Eurocorps, the EU’s standing army; Sherard Cowper-Cowles, the former British diplomat who now works for BAE Systems; Robert Kaplan, the chief analyst at intelligence firm Stratfor; Henry Kissinger, the former US secretary of state; and David Petraeus, the former US commander in Afghanistan who briefly ran the CIA. Those are the publicly issued names. A source involved in this year’s planning admits sometimes others may turn up, “just for the day”.

On the agenda is economic growth, big data, Africa, medical research and the rise of cyber warfare. The future of the welfare state is likely to be discussed, as one topic is titled "jobs, entitlement and debt". Another session is called simply "current affairs".

The debates take place with the delegates seated together in one large room. Some prepare written papers. It is bad form not to join in the discussion; they are not there to listen, a source says. On Saturday afternoon there will be time for golf, followed by dinner at which guests are seated alphabetically. Discussions are minuted and a report of what each guest said circulated, former guests say, but there are no formal resolutions voted on or policies adopted.

Few want to talk about it. I’m out of the office when Baroness Williams of Crosby returns my call, but when her secretary learns it is about the Bilderberg she says she cannot speak. The Treasury’s press office do not answer emails asking whether the Chancellor has arranged any meetings with delegates in advance, and if he is attending in an official capacity, or what he might say. Ed Balls’s staff are similarly shy.

Emanuele Ottolenghi, an expert in Iran at the Washington think thank Foundation for the Defense of Democracies who will sit next to Osborne at dinner, politely emails: “The conference is off the record. I will, therefore, be unable to comment on it, before or after.”

I asked if he will make a case for the defence of off-the-record meetings. They are far from unique to the Bilderberg. He replies with a link to an old Daniel Pipes essay on the rise of conspiracy theories, which argues they have flourished in the States amongst the politically disaffected, the hard Right and, controversially, the black community. “I sympathise with your point of view, and can recommend this as a frame of reference,” he says.

And the conspiracy theoretician-in-chief is Daniel Estulin, a 46-year-old Lithuanian and the author of the best-selling The True Story of the Bilderberg Group. Fidel Castro, the former Cuban leader, is a fan. It argues the group’s founders were former Nazis, and it now gathers to choose presidents and control the media.

“Bilderberg is not a conspiracy theory. It’s a conspiracy reality,” he writes from Moscow, where he is filming his weekly show for Russia Today, the Kremlin-backed broadcaster. “It was a vehicle through which private financier oligarchical interests were able to impose their policies on nominally sovereign governments. The idea is the creation of a global network of cartels, more powerful than any nation on Earth, destined to control the necessities of life of the rest of humanity.”

A major victory, he tells me, was engineering the 1973 oil price shock to prop up the dollar and make Wall Street rich. He sends me long lens photographs he took of de Castries and Richard Holbrooke, the US diplomat, relaxing in chinos and linen jackets at a gathering in Italy. He's unsure what they were up to.

But high on the agenda in Watford will be Eric Schmidt and Google, his sources say. “It is an integral part of the United States security apparatus. Your information is processed, analysed and stored for later use,” he adds. He adds: “Limitless anything spells c-o-n-t-r-o-l.”

He asks for a copy of the guest list. I direct him to a newspaper story, taken from a press release on the Bilderberg's official website.

“Lots of the stuff written about it is a load of crap,” says Lord Healey of Riddleden, who served as Chancellor to Harold Wilson and James Callaghan. He would know. He attended the first Bilderberg meeting in 1954 and sat on the steering committee for forty years.

“Those who weren’t invited were very jealous. Some people described it as a secret Communist organisation. Others said it was a secret American organisation. But it was balls.”

For much of the post-War era Healey helped set the agenda and chose the delegates. He is proud of their record in spotting future leaders. Bill Clinton and Tony Blair were invited early in their careers. “The steering committee, because of their wide range of backgrounds, made some very good choices,” he says.

Lord Carrington is also frustrated at the theories. “I remember there was this American who thinks it’s a great conspiracy and the Queen is involved, and probably Satan,” he said.

Carrington, now 93, was Margaret Thatcher’s foreign secretary during the Falklands War, and after leading Nato he served as chairman of the Bilderberg in the 1990s. He has never spoken publicly about the role before.

“The reason people talk about conspiracy is if you want people to speak freely on matters of importance, either financial or political, they don’t want every word they say reported in the press. It’s been secret in that sense,” he says.

Healey is sure of the influence of the group. At 95, his memory for dates and speeches has dimmed, but he recalls discussing at length the Vietnam war with Henry Kissinger.

Most vividly, he recalls its role in bringing the architects of the European integration – Schmidt, Pompidou, Giscard d’Estaing, Leone – together for open-ended discussions with bankers and economists about how the European monetary system might work.

“The great advantage of the Bilderberg thing was they did not have to reach agreement. You had time to discuss things with people who influence events who normally you would not meet at all.”

He adds: “People could talk very freely, much more freely than they would at home.”

Would the European Union and single currency have taken the shape they have now without those early Bilderberg meetings, I ask him.

“I think it was a very important element in it. Whether it would have happened without it is difficult to say,” he says.

Other accounts suggest the annual meeting can be decisive.

Alexandre Lamfalussy, the banker who went on to run the European Monetary Institute, the forerunner to the ECB, recalls sitting next to Helmut Kohl, the West German chancellor, at the Bilderberg in the mid-1980s. He was asked whether Germany would ever be unified. It was inflammatory, and publicly unutterable, with Soviet troops still occupying the East. “It’s going to happen,” Kohl said. “Forget about your reticence, you will have to understand that German division will not endure.” Americans at the table thought, at first, he was joking.

Similarly, according to the author Jon Ronson, during the Falklands War David Owen managed to turn the weight of world opinion with a single speech demanding sanctions on Argentina before an audience of foreign ministers at Bilderberg. The sanctions were later imposed.

And for business leaders, it is a perfect opportunity to lay the groundwork for deals. According to Tom Bergin’s Spills and Spin, the account of the Gulf of Mexico oil disaster, Lord Browne, the head of BP, used a walk by Lake Como at the 2004 gathering in Italy to suggest a vast merger with Shell to create the world’s biggest oil company. Lord Browne left under the impression it would happen.

Such cosiness, critics say, is a threat to democracy.

“If our politicians want to be wined and dined in luxury for three days with Goldman Sachs, that seems to me a little bit like lobbying,” says Hannah Borno, a journalist and transparency campaigner, who will be outside The Grove today. She wants the minutes of the discussions to be published. She is puzzled as to how the Bilderberg Association is granted tax exemption as a charity, when groups such as private schools usually need to pass a public benefit test.

She adds: “Conspiracy theories have served the group quite well, because any serious scrutiny could be dismissed as hysterical and shrill. But look at the participant list. These people have cleared days from their extremely busy schedules."

Such scrutiny would kill the Bilderberg, delegates insist, and as a consequence international relations would suffer.

“I found it the most useful of all the meetings I attended regularly. The Bilderberg was the best because the level of the people attending regularly was so much higher,” says Healey. “There was the Atlantic Institute which discussed the Americans’ and Canadians’ issues, and there was the purely European one, which used to meet in Germany. But Bilderberg was the most useful of the lot.”

Healey, who like Carrington served in the war, writes of the meetings in his memoirs: “Experience has taught me that lack of understanding is the main cause of all evil in public affairs. Nothing is more likely to produce understanding than the sort of personal contact which involves people not just officials or representatives, but human beings.”

Carrington also enjoyed the equality shared amongst the leaders when away from the office.

“The fact they were whatever they were made no difference, because everybody was pretty distinguished,” he says. “They behaved like ordinary people, if you can believe that.”

Vayutuvan
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 07 Jun 2013 09:18

“Lots of the stuff written about it is a load of crap,” says Lord Healey of Riddleden, who served as Chancellor to Harold Wilson and James Callaghan. He would know. He attended the first Bilderberg meeting in 1954 and sat on the steering committee for forty years.

“Those who weren’t invited were very jealous. Some people described it as a secret Communist organisation. Others said it was a secret American organisation. But it was balls.”

So it is not only folks from provinces who suffer from eloquence in Queen's English.

Philip
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 07 Jun 2013 23:49

The UK too has allegedly been snoopin' on its citizens using the NSA's top secret "PRISM" programme.
Decades ago it was "Echelon",the ultra secret NSA programme to monitor all global commns. We now have the sinister "PRISM".

The NSA describes Prism as "one of the most valuable, unique and productive accesses" of intelligence, and boasts the service has been made available to spy organisations from other countries, including GCHQ.

It says the British agency generated 197 intelligence reports from Prism in the year to May 2012 – marking a 137% increase in the number of reports generated from the year before. Intelligence reports from GCHQ are normally passed to MI5 and MI6.

The documents underline that "special programmes for GCHQ exist for focused Prism processing", suggesting the agency has been able to receive material from a bespoke part of the programme to suit British interests.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/20 ... -nsa-prism

UK gathering secret intelligence via covert NSA operation
Exclusive: UK security agency GCHQ gaining information from world's biggest internet firms through US-run Prism programme


UK gathering secret intelligence via covert NSA operation

Exclusive: UK security agency GCHQ gaining information from world's biggest internet firms through US-run Prism programme
Nick Hopkins
guardian.co.uk, Friday 7 June 2013 14.27 BST

Documents show GCHQ has had access to the NSA's Prism programme since at least June 2010
Documents show GCHQ (above) has had access to the NSA's Prism programme since at least June 2010. Photograph: David Goddard/Getty Images

The UK's electronic eavesdropping and security agency, GCHQ, has been secretly gathering intelligence from the world's biggest internet companies through a covertly run operation set up by America's top spy agency, documents obtained by the Guardian reveal.

The documents show that GCHQ, based in Cheltenham, has had access to the system since at least June 2010, and generated 197 intelligence reports from it last year.

The US-run programme, called Prism, would appear to allow GCHQ to circumvent the formal legal process required to seek personal material such as emails, photos and videos from an internet company based outside the UK.

The use of Prism raises ethical and legal issues about such direct access to potentially millions of internet users, as well as questions about which British ministers knew of the programme.

In a statement to the Guardian, GCHQ, insisted it "takes its obligations under the law very seriously".

The details of GCHQ's use of Prism are set out in documents prepared for senior analysts working at America's National Security Agency, the biggest eavesdropping organisation in the world.

Dated April this year, the papers describe the remarkable scope of a previously undisclosed "snooping" operation which gave the NSA and the FBI easy access to the systems of nine of the world's biggest internet companies. The group includes Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo and Skype.

The documents, which appear in the form of a 41-page PowerPoint presentation, suggest the firms co-operated with the Prism programme. Technology companies denied knowledge of Prism, with Google insisting it "does not have a back door for the government to access private user data". But the companies acknowledged that they complied with legal orders.

The existence of Prism, though, is not in doubt.

Thanks to changes to US surveillance law introduced under President George W Bush and renewed under Barack Obama in December 2012, Prism was established in December 2007 to provide in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information about foreigners overseas.

The law allows for the targeting of any customers of participating firms who live outside the US, or those Americans whose communications include people outside the US.

The documents make clear the NSA has been able to obtain unilaterally both stored communications as well as real-time collection of raw data for the last six years, without the knowledge of users, who would assume their correspondence was private.

The NSA describes Prism as "one of the most valuable, unique and productive accesses" of intelligence, and boasts the service has been made available to spy organisations from other countries, including GCHQ.

It says the British agency generated 197 intelligence reports from Prism in the year to May 2012 – marking a 137% increase in the number of reports generated from the year before. Intelligence reports from GCHQ are normally passed to MI5 and MI6.

The documents underline that "special programmes for GCHQ exist for focused Prism processing", suggesting the agency has been able to receive material from a bespoke part of the programme to suit British interests.

Unless GCHQ has stopped using Prism, the agency has accessed information from the programme for at least three years. It is not mentioned in the latest report from the Interception of Communications Commissioner Office, which scrutinises the way the UK's three security agencies use the laws covering the interception and retention of data.

Asked to comment on its use of Prism, GCHQ said it "takes its obligations under the law very seriously. Our work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework which ensures that our activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate, and that there is rigorous oversight, including from the secretary of state, the interception and intelligence services commissioners and the intelligence and security committee".

The agency refused to be drawn on how long it had been using Prism, how many intelligence reports it had gleaned from it, or which ministers knew it was being used.

A GCHQ spokesperson added: "We do not comment on intelligence matters."

The existence and use of Prism reflects concern within the intelligence community about access it has to material held by internet service providers.

Many of the web giants are based in the US and are beyond the jurisdiction of British laws. Very often, the UK agencies have to go through a formal legal process to request information from service providers.

Because the UK has a mutual legal assistance treaty with America, GCHQ can make an application through the US department of justice, which will make the approach on its behalf.

Though the process is used extensively – almost 3,000 requests were made to Google alone last year – it is time consuming. Prism would appear to give GCHQ a chance to bypass the procedure.

In its statement about Prism, Google said it "cares deeply about the security of our users' data. We disclose user data to government in accordance with the law, and we review all such requests carefully. From time to time, people allege that we have created a government 'back door' into our systems, but Google does not have a back door for the government to access private user data".

Several senior tech executives insisted they had no knowledge of Prism or of any similar scheme. They said they would never have been involved in such a programme.

"If they are doing this, they are doing it without our knowledge," one said. An Apple spokesman said it had "never heard" of Prism.

In a statement confirming the existence of Prism, James Clapper, the director of national intelligence in the US, said: "Information collected under this programme is among the most important and valuable intelligence information we collect, and is used to protect our nation from a wide variety of threats."

A senior US administration official said: "The programme is subject to oversight by the foreign intelligence surveillance court, the executive branch, and Congress. It involves extensive procedures, specifically approved by the court, to ensure that only non-US persons outside the US are targeted, and that minimise the acquisition, retention and dissemination of incidentally acquired information about US persons."

neeraj
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby neeraj » 08 Jun 2013 03:09

Selfridges robbery: 'Men in burkas' in 'smash and grab
Police said the robbers, reportedly dressed in burkas :rotfl: , smashed glass cabinets to steal high value watches.

Two suspects were later arrested when they came off a moped and members of the public stopped them fleeing.



Asked about witness reports that the offenders had disguised themselves as rich Arab women with designer handbags
Last edited by neeraj on 08 Jun 2013 03:11, edited 1 time in total.

Hari Seldon
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Hari Seldon » 08 Jun 2013 03:11

^^Yup, a 100 such incidents and aam janta will make the connection that burqas == crime scenes waiting to happen... only.


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