Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 06 Nov 2013 09:47

Like it or not, at $26-30 Bn, plus limited TOT, the deal makes little sense. The EF guys should be sounded out again, if Dassault continues to play tough. This sort of post deal wrangling is inexcusable. They knew perfectly well they had to work with HAL, and then to bring in an untested Reliance after the fact claiming bad bad HAL does not wash.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 06 Nov 2013 23:03

Kartik, gold dust of information, I say.

Gentlemen, the posts related to LCA have been moved to the LCA thread (where it rightly belongs). Please continue the discussion there.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2013 06:09

AVM Arun Subramaniam,serving IAF officer,has in the New Indian Express in an article "Undermining National Security" savaged Bharat Karnad for his ignorant piece about wasteful military deals.he has articulated what we've been saying on BR too.

http://newindianexpress.com/opinion/Und ... 876105.ece

Undermining national security

By Arjun Subramaniam

Published: 07th November 2013

In his article “Stop Wasteful Military Deals” published in The New Indian Express on November 1, 2013, Bharat Karnad attempts to reinvent himself as a knight in shining armour charging fearlessly at the Indian Air Force (IAF) on behalf of an imaginary indigenous brigade. By casting aspersions and denigrating the IAF’s commitment to indigenisation based on inputs that range from flights of fantasy to half-baked truths and very few realities, Karnad is playing a dangerous game which has the potential to jeopardise national security.

Whenever civilian analysts and researchers offer critiques on military systems or strategies they do so with meticulous research that stands the test of rigorous professional scrutiny. Karnad adopts no such methodology and rides on his past reputation of being a maverick armchair defence analyst with a general disdain for the establishment.

Let me dismantle some of his propositions. First is that his claim that French and Israeli pilots have gone gaga over the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is sheer bunkum — no foreign pilot has flown the LCA — period. The LCA Flight Test Team comprises IAF and Indian Navy test pilots who are among the best in the world and do not need any certification from the French or Israelis. The Russian sale of the Tu-22 M3M strategic bomber along with its entire assembly line to China is a deal that has fallen through — the Internet is full of news of the falling through of the deal. Karnad talks of a fictitious trainer aircraft called the HJT-44 being “up and ready” and questions the proposal to buy additional PC-7 Pilatus Basic Trainer aircraft.

The truth is that the training aircraft being offered by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is called the HTT-40 and is still on the drawing board!
A word about the Pilatus PC-7 and the circumstances of its induction into the IAF. Plagued by a series of problems on the HPT-32, the IAF’s long-standing basic trainer aircraft, the IAF brainstormed for years with the HAL to resuscitate the trainer. When all attempts failed and when the IAF saw that there were just no trainers to address the needs of basic flying training, it had to literally go in for an emergency purchase of 75 Pilatus Trainers to ensure that the stream of pilots from the training academy to the operational squadrons does not stop.

With the requirement of trained pilot set to increase with the induction of large numbers of twin-seat Sukhois, C-130 J Super Hercules, C-17s and Mi-17 V5 helicopters, the IAF had to take decisive measures even if it meant having to import basic trainers. The Pilatus has been a resounding success at the Air Force Academy and with its excellent pedigree, reliability and global flight safety track record, $1.5 billion is a small price for an emerging power to pay for ensuring the safety of hundreds of our young flight cadets and instructors.

As for the follow-on purchase — it makes logistical and supply chain management sense to buy some more of the same aircraft considering that an indigenous basic trainer is not going to be “up and away” for at least a decade.

Going back to the seventies and the saga of the HF-24 Marut fighter, it is common knowledge that the Marut programme came to a premature end because we could not design or import a suitable engine for the aircraft and sustaining the two squadrons with derated Gnat engines was not going to be an operationally viable proposition for long.

The ensuing Jaguar deal was, without any doubt, one of the most successful deals in more ways than one for both the IAF and HAL.
The manner in which the aircraft has been exploited by the IAF ushered in a new era of professionalism in the force; over three decades later, it still remains at the forefront of the IAF’s strike capability. Staying with the Jaguar, the licensed manufacture of the Jaguar by HAL and the quantum indigenous upgradation in its avionics, radar and weapon systems in India itself has provided both Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and HAL with tremendous confidence to leverage the same for development of indigenous aircraft design and manufacturing capability.

Coming back to the LCA, Karnad is confused whether to call it the LCA or the Tejas. Let me set the record straight. The IAF has named the LCA as the Tejas; the Indian Navy is yet to decide on a name for the LCA. Karnad has also gone totally wrong in equating the LCA with the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) by suggesting that the Mark II can be a used as an MMRCA. The two aircraft are completely different in terms of the weight class (the LCA is a 13 ton fighter, while the MMRCA is a 20 ton fighter). What this means is that the missions and roles they can perform are completely different. So is the range and the tonnage of armament that they can carry. For the common aviation enthusiast, the LCA can be said to be a replacement for the MiG-21, while the MMRCA is slated to occupy a mid-position between the LCA and the Su-30 in the years ahead.

To be fair to Karnad — yes, the flight control system of the LCA is top class, but to claim that the Mark II will be significantly superior to the MMRCA is far-fetched and devoid of any research strength. Blowing one’s trumpet about the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar is premature at this stage, as it is not even on the drawing board. In such a situation it is not even clear whether it would be on the LCA Mk II. Having said that, the IAF is fully committed to the LCA and will share the same pride that Karnad exhibits when its first squadron becomes operational. The IAF is also cognisant that it remains the single largest repository of operational aviation knowledge in the country and to accuse it of scuttling indigenisation, as Karnad so easily does, is both unfair and dangerous. Let us not undermine the IAF in such a callous and cavalier manner.

Arjun Subramaniam is a serving Air Vice Marshal in the IAF and an air power analyst.

Email: arjun31@gmail.com


PS:Further bad news (TOI) on the acquisition of LUHs (contest may be scrapped yet again and even HAL's LUH in trouble) and other helo deals particularly the huge requirement of ASW helos for the IN,as the MOD is in decision-making paralysis (no great secret this!) over the AW scandal,with the "Saint" doing everything to keep his dhoti spotless and do nothing.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 07 Nov 2013 06:28

Philip wrote:AVM Arun Subramaniam,serving IAF officer,has in the New Indian Express in an article "Undermining National Security" savaged Bharat Karnad for his ignorant piece about wasteful military deals.he has articulated what we've been saying on BR too.

http://newindianexpress.com/opinion/Und ... 876105.ece

Balanced reply, IMHO. I have just 2 problems:
1. HTT-40 is not on the drawing board. Metal cutting happened one year back.
2. Also to say that the AESA is not even on the drawing board is not correct.

Philip wrote:PS:Further bad news (TOI) on the acquisition of LUHs (contest may be scrapped yet again and even HAL's LUH in trouble)

Did not read of any problems with the LUH of late. The engine has been chosen and the transmission designed and fabricated. Could you point me to something which corroborates your statement on LUH

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby John » 07 Nov 2013 07:09

Vivek K wrote:BK confirms that a fool and his money are easily parted. But China bought the assembly line jour the TU22M3? When?

They are not dumb enough to waste $$ on a aircraft which even the Georgians had no problem shooting down. It is cold war relic...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2013 07:22

^ over land yes. but they need a long range ALCM/ASM hauler to better their old H-6 badgers + YJx/CJ10 combo out to the blue water belt. Tu22m3 is anyday more survivable than their H6.
they are just being pragmatic - its not state of art but with new ECM systems and refurbished airframes should be a good asset esp as number of takeoffs/landings will be less due to long naval missions and their sortie rates are anyway not claimed to be high.

a backfire if it launches a missile from 200km away and then turns around and goes supersonic, very few fighters have the endurance to chase it down.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Victor » 07 Nov 2013 07:40

A hit piece on the IAF by BK is depressing even though he has clearly been inconsistent in recent years. Must be getting senile. The cavalier manner in which he let fly one bunkum fact after another suggests that he wrote with a bad hangover and little time to meet the deadline. Suspicion yet again falls squarely on HAL for getting an old guy agitated and instigating him to fire up his fountain pen.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 07 Nov 2013 08:56

indranilroy wrote:
Philip wrote:PS:Further bad news (TOI) on the acquisition of LUHs (contest may be scrapped yet again and even HAL's LUH in trouble)

Did not read of any problems with the LUH of late. The engine has been chosen and the transmission designed and fabricated. Could you point me to something which corroborates your statement on LUH


Ya, I would like to see some independent source with regard to that as well, particularly since there are well-known biases at play here.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 07 Nov 2013 09:04

That comment about AESA not even being on the drawing board is patently incorrect. Astra MWP had supplied X band arrays (semi-populated or modules) for the AESA MMR in 2012 itself.

Wonder if the good AVM is doing an "Aswathama is dead" about the French/Israeli TP issue as well by being technically correct and slightly off elsewhere in that foreign pilots did not fly the actual aircraft itself but got access to the aircraft handling via the sim. AVM Philip Rajkumar in the LCA story mentions the LCA FBW was judged better handling than the F-16 CLAW, but need to check whether that included US pilots having access to the LCA FBW in those early days or Indian pilots evaluating both.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2013 11:07

The report suggested that both the decisions for the LUH contest and the HAL LUH acquisitions are in trouble.

Armed forces’ bid to acquire helicopters hits hurdles
Rajat Pandit, TNN | Nov 7, 2013,

NEW DELHI: A double whammy has hit the armed forces once again. It will force the Army and IAF to fly their ageing and obsolete Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, deployed even in high-altitude areas like Siachen, for the foreseeable future.

For one, the long-delayed over Rs 3,000-crore procurement project for 197 "reconnaissance and surveillance" helicopters from abroad is in the danger of being junked for the second time. For another, the indigenous Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) project to develop 187 similar light utility helicopters has also been hit by a huge delay.

Even as the defence ministry gets all set to cancel the infamous Rs 3,546-crore contract for 12 VVIP helicopters, sources say "the future is extremely bleak" for the 197-helicopter project as well. "No final decision to scrap the 197-helicopter project has been taken till now. But it's unlikely to materialize due to the pending CBI inquiry into the case," said a source.


Unlike the VVIP helicopter contract inked with AgustaWestland in February 2010, the 197-helicopter project is still stuck in the selection process between the contenders Russian Kamov Ka-226T and Eurocopter AS 550 C3 Fennec choppers.

Though AgustaWestland no longer figures in the sweepstakes, it has cast a long shadow over it. Apart from the main VVIP chopper case, the CBI is investigating the role played by an Indian Army brigadier who allegedly demanded money from AgustaWestland to swing the 197-helicopter deal its way as well, as earlier reported by TOI.

While this project is stuck in cold storage, the indigenous programme is also floundering way behind schedule. Sanctioned by the Cabinet committee on security (CCS) in February 2009, HAL was tasked to deliver the helicopter in 60 months.

But defence PSU has managed to "achieve only three of the nine milestones" laid for the project till now. "The detailed design and analysis phase is still to be completed. Moreover, French firm Turbomeca has only now been selected as the engine supplier. The first engine is slated for delivery only by June 2014," said the source.


If the procurement process for the 197 helicopters is indeed scrapped, it will be the second time for the ill-fated project. It was almost finalized in December 2007 but then cancelled due to some irregularities. The fresh case began after the AK Antony-led defence acquisitions council granted it "acceptance of necessity" in April 2008.

Though AgustaWestland cleared the initial technical evaluation, it was later disqualified for fielding a different helicopter in the trials. Since then, the Kamov and Europcopter choppers have undergone three phases of trial in 2010 as well as examination by a special technical oversight committee, which submitted its report to MoD in June, 2012. It remains stuck there.

The Navy, already grappling with a huge shortage in anti-submarine warfare helicopters, also has its own case for the acquisition of 56 naval utility helicopters customized for surveillance, anti-terror, electronic intelligence gathering, search and rescue operations. But the $1 billion project, too, is yet to take off
.


In pre-election mode,the UPA appears not to want any more controversies which will lose them seats,but such indecision might certainly lose them votes...especially from the armed forces tribe includuing veterans.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 07 Nov 2013 12:00

^^^

I saw an add from MRF, stating that it was selected to be a tyre suppliers for the Su 30.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 07 Nov 2013 13:34

So, as per AVN Arjun Subramaniam, local AESA is not even on the drawing board.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2013 15:19

Are we thus waiting for a co-developer/JV for the same,yet to identified,hopefully along with the Rafale package?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 07 Nov 2013 15:53

JTull wrote:So, as per AVN Arjun Subramaniam, local AESA is not even on the drawing board.


(With all due respects, he needs to learn how to write an article first.)

However, 2012 :: DRDO Surges Ahead With 2nd Phase of AEW&CS, Plans to Integrate AESA Radar on Tejas Mark 2 as Well

DRDO Chief VK Saraswat has also divulged into the details of the indigenously developed Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in the AEW&CS project. Hailing the radar as the one the best in the world, DRDO chief said that it can capture images and send to the ground control centers besides incorporating all the features of an airborne surveillance system. It has unmatchable resolution, performance and electronic warfare capability.

The AESA radar is also expected to be integrated with the Tejas Mark II LCA besides other programmes. DRDO Chief added that the work is already on and the Tejas Mark-2 will have nothing but the AESA radar. The DRDO lab LRDE is working on the TR (Transmitter & Receiver) modules for the same. Apparently, it is now possible to configure small as well as large AESA radar. The advantage of AESA is that more power can be derived if you increase the numbers of TR modules. DRDO’s AESA radar will be of same size and volume of the present radar integrated on Tejas Mark-1. Once the work starts for the Mark-2 of Tejas aircraft, the old radar will be simply replaced by the indigenous AESA radar.


For some odd reason, I just do not think they are in sync with each other. MoD, Services, Labs and reporters need to be on the same page and pulling in the same direction. Else this whole thing will get to be a circus, if it not already one.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 07 Nov 2013 18:42

MELSS (a Murugappa group company) produces the following simulators -

Small Arms Training Simulators (IFATS)
Aircraft Part Task Training Simulator
Aircraft Systems Maintenance Simulator - Mirage 2000
Ship's Bridge & Engine Room Simulator
Sea King , Sea Harrier Maintenance Training Simulator
Navigation and Weapon Systems training Simulators (Mirage 2000)
Engine Simulator (Mirage 2000)
Combat System Simulator (Navy)
Submarine Control Simulator

SIMULATORS

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 07 Nov 2013 21:39

Philip wrote:The report suggested that both the decisions for the LUH contest and the HAL LUH acquisitions are in trouble.
Armed forces’ bid to acquire helicopters hits hurdles
Rajat Pandit, TNN | Nov 7, 2013,

I have been following the LUH as closely as can be from open literature. The goal was to start production from 2014, because they thought they could simply take one Shakti engine and build the heli. But when this dream fell through due to exhorbitant amounts being charged by Turbomecca for designing the transmission, the project hit its first roadblock.

Now that first roadblock has been overcome and main gearbox was displayed at AI-13. The main structural Ground test vehicle was built before schedule in Dec last year. The engine will be supplied in the middle of next year. Expect the maiden flight of the first prototype by end of next year or early 2015. There will be 3 prototypes and no LSPs. They will start directly from the SPs after the 3 prototypes. According to the tenders for different parts that they have floated, they are targeting to build 12 helicopters in 2016-2017, but deliveries will only start in 2017-2018, when they will deliver the first 10 helicopters. They will finish the delivery of 207 helicopters by 2023-2024.

In the meantime, IAF/IA can order more Cheetals.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 07 Nov 2013 22:00

^^^

IR, small nitpick. the development time was 6 yrs starting from feb 2009 so maiden flight was slated for early 2015. if things go on schedule as you pointed out it means 'all is well'.

IIRC the chetak/cheetah line is still open.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby John » 08 Nov 2013 02:27

Singha wrote:^ over land yes. but they need a long range ALCM/ASM hauler to better their old H-6 badgers + YJx/CJ10 combo out to the blue water belt. Tu22m3 is anyday more survivable than their H6.
they are just being pragmatic - its not state of art but with new ECM systems and refurbished airframes should be a good asset esp as number of takeoffs/landings will be less due to long naval missions and their sortie rates are anyway not claimed to be high.

a backfire if it launches a missile from 200km away and then turns around and goes supersonic, very few fighters have the endurance to chase it down.

There is not enough refurbished air frames and ECM systems are still quite lacking compared to western counterparts. Even then Tu-22m3 are not low altitude bombers they are designed to cruise at medium altitude which would alert early warning radar systems and unless they have dedicated AWACS/Air support. It is pretty much suicide run sending them on such a mission if a couple flankers manage to spot them.

IMO You are better of sending Su-30mkk with refuelers and the future is for standoff missile delivery platforms with low visibility not something like Tu-22m3.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 08 Nov 2013 06:33

Philip wrote:AVM Arun Subramaniam,serving IAF officer,has in the New Indian Express in an article "Undermining National Security" savaged Bharat Karnad for his ignorant piece about wasteful military deals.he has articulated what we've been saying on BR too.

The ensuing Jaguar deal was, without any doubt, one of the most successful deals in more ways than one for both the IAF and HAL. The manner in which the aircraft has been exploited by the IAF ushered in a new era of professionalism in the force; over three decades later, it still remains at the forefront of the IAF’s strike capability. Staying with the Jaguar, the licensed manufacture of the Jaguar by HAL and the quantum indigenous upgradation in its avionics, radar and weapon systems in India itself has provided both Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and HAL with tremendous confidence to leverage the same for development of indigenous aircraft design and manufacturing capability.


Can someone enlighten me on the highlighted part? Not to attack his views, my view is that this aircraft has been bought with a perceived requirement which never saw action and is not likely to see action. Briefly in Kargl, where its performance is open to jury.

I wonder of purchasing and successfully building it can be called a success if there was and is no use of it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kanson » 08 Nov 2013 06:51

ramana wrote:Bharat Karnad on 1 Novemeber

Stop wasteful military deals

Stop wasteful military deals

By Bharat karnad

Published: 01st November 2013 06:00 AM

Reduction of the Rs 4 lakh-crore fiscal deficit will require a drastic winnowing of defence expenditure programmes. The wasteful military procurement system that fetches, as it were, as much chaff as grain, offers obvious targets for excision. Among them the egregiously wrong-headed deals for the Swiss Pilatus PC-7 turboprop trainer and the French Rafale MMRCA (multi-role, medium range combat aircraft).

Consider IAF’s priorities: It bought PC-7s for $1.5 billion, an amount the Chinese Air Force spent to secure the entire production line from Russia of the latest, most advanced, Tu-22M3M strategic bomber! This Pilatus purchase, moreover, was approved by defence minister A K Antony at a time when Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore, had its new HJT-44 turboprop trainer up and ready. Brazening out such mindless splurges, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne advised closure of the HJT-44 line to enable purchase of more PC-7s!

IAF has at most tolerated licence-manufactured foreign fighter planes but sought stubbornly to kill off indigenous combat aircraft projects. In the past, it buried the Marut Mk-II, the low-level strike variant designed in the 1970s by the highly talented Dr Raj Mahindra, who won his spurs under Kurt Tank, designer of the Focke-Wulfe fighter-bombers for the Nazi Luftwaffe and of the original HF-24 at HAL, buying the Jaguar from the UK instead. History repeats itself.

French and Israeli pilots who have unofficially flown the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) have gone gaga over its flying attributes. The Tejas will come equipped with an indigenous AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar — the heart and the brains of any combat aircraft, enabling it to near-instantly switch from air-to-air to air-to-ground missions. The Flight Control System (FCS) of the Tejas is so advanced, it can deal with the sort of turbulence in flight that its counterpart onboard the Eurofighter — supposedly technologically superior to the Rafale, plainly cannot, as per an expert familiar with the FCS in both aircraft. This deficiency nearly ended in disaster for the Eurofighter on several occasions but was not disclosed by EADS to IAF during the jockeying for the MMRCA contract. The larger, heavier, longer range Mark-II variant of the near all-composite Tejas, in fact, fills the bill of “MMRCA”. An LCA version of Tejas has already been flown weighted down with ballast to mimic the Mk-II plan-form. The fact that the Mk-II variant was coming along well, besides, was known to the IAF-MoD (ministry of defence) combo. So, how come the tender for MMRCA was not terminated midway?

The Mk-II’s chances were scuppered by IAF-MoD on the ground that Tejas was not operational. But the LCA has been prevented from entering squadron service after it obtained the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC)-1 last year, because of their insistence that IOC-2 and subsequent clearances be done by HAL rather than permitting the clearances to be obtained by the designated Tejas squadron, flying the aircraft, at the Sulur base in Tamil Nadu. The latter procedure will allow our fighter pilots to test the plane’s flight envelope and performance, and to provide feedback to designers — normal practice of advanced air forces inducting a new locally-produced aircraft. Further, rather than restricting the initial off-take to just 46 aircraft, MoD should order the full complement of 7-8 squadrons worth of Tejas to facilitate economies of scale and the farming out of work by HAL to private industry, thereby growing it. In the interim, additional “super Sukhois” could have been procured for a total force of some 70-plus of these planes, inarguably the finest combat aircraft now flying.

The fact is the original price tag for the MMRCA deal of $12-15 billion is set to balloon to $26-30 billion. Why? For one thing, having won the MMRCA contest, the French company, Dassault, doesn’t want to abide by the contract requiring the plane to be manufactured at HAL under license with transfer of technology (TOT). Dassault maintains it cannot guarantee Rafales made in India unless its chosen private sector partner, Reliance Aerospace, is tasked with its production. The arrangement with Reliance, however, is to have it import all of the most high-value assemblies and avionics as “black boxes” for the duration of the Indian production run, keeping over 500 French firms employing a workforce of 7,000 people, according to a French newsletter, L’Úsine Novelle, in the clover for the next few decades!

The real kicker here is the fact that while India will pay for full TOT — amounting to tens of billions of dollars — no meaningful technology (flight control laws and source codes) will, as in past such deals, ever actually get transferred. New Delhi as always will pay up, not caring whether India gets what it paid for or not and, even less, whether it will ever become self-sufficient in arms. It may be better to simply buy 126 Rafales off the shelf if the IAF deems it such a critical need, when it is not, rather than pay through our ears for technology we won’t get.

The conjoined Mk-II Tejas-Super Sukhois option will make Rafale redundant, and is the reason why those Indians who have pocketed French baksheesh (which totals a very hefty sum, indeed) will resist it. But for the country’s good, the best thing that can happen is that the Pilatus and Rafale contracts are immediately junked.

What about self-sufficiency that our politicians and uniformed brass keep yakking about? Alas, that’s only public speeches and posturing. When has the government ever insisted, or compelled the military to go with, a home-made product at the expense of a foreign item, and the armed services told that otherwise they would have to make do with nothing at all?

Militarily ignorant political leaders are easily stampeded into making capital acquisitions owing to public fear of a “growing gap” in aircraft, tanks, or whatever, generated with the help of a gullible media. Rather than laying down an iron law favouring indigenous hardware Antony, like his predecessors, has played into the institutionalised distrust of the Indian military of indigenous weapons platforms. IAF is merely the worst offender.

(Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research and blogs at http://www.bharatkarnad.com)



WOW!! No holds barred frontal attack!!

I think I seriously support his views. Thanks.

I was saying this here for a very long time.
viewtopic.php?p=1374458#p1374458
Kanson wrote:It was said many times here that Tejas Mk2 once arrived can stand shoulder to shoulder with any MMRCA that joins our AF.



PS. let me repost it in full to show my approval.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vipul » 08 Nov 2013 07:32

Wipro flies away with Rs 900-cr IAF deal.

The Indian Air Force has dished out an over Rs 900-crore contract to software services company Wipro to electronically monitor and automate the management of its fleet, said Air Marshal P. Kanakaraj, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Maintenance Command.

“As part of this project, all maintenance activities done on our aircraft will be electronically captured. It is a dashboard sort of system which will replace the old system of manual logbooks. The endeavour is to go completely paperless,” Kanakaraj told Business Line.

The multi-year project — e-Maintenance Management System— will help the IAF quickly mobilise its fleet in case of a war-like situation, said Kanakaraj, who was here on Thursday.

With this project, the IAF intends to set up an enterprise-wide, online maintenance management system which will be Web-based. This will cover aspects such as configuration management, fleet planning and management, maintenance repair and overhaul.

“The Air Force has also earmarked two locations for the system, one of which will serve as the disaster recovery centre for the system,” said Kanakaraj. The project will help reduce overall costs for the Air Force by increasing ‘accuracy of information, speed of information and reduction of manpower deployed’, he said.

A source said Tata Consultancy Services, its subsidiary CMC, and a host of other companies were in the race for the deal.

In fact, the entire project, the request for proposal for which was first floated in 2008, has been delayed numerous times.

Wipro officials were not available for comment.

Alok Shende, Principal Analyst and Director of Ascentius Consulting, said: “A whole new wave of investments started happening in the Indian defence ecosystem four-five years ago. In anticipation of what was happening, a lot of Indian vendors started looking at defence as a serious opportunity, and that is now bearing fruit for Wipro,” Shende added.

According to details in the request for proposal, in the first phase, the new system will be implemented in key locations before being gradually rolled out to 170 locations, covering about 550 units of the IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 08 Nov 2013 08:02

The success of the Jaguar programme has been in that the DARIN upgrades were conceived at home and successfully implemented by the IAF/HAL,a true desi achievement.There has been a lot of matter written on the subject by various experts.This has kept the aircraft relevant to date and further upgrades of all aircraft ,mainly the engine,from Honywell are planned to extend the lifespan and capability of the bird which is vital for the IAF in the CS/GA role,as the aircraft is now taking over the rolethat the MIG-27s played.There has been a long debate and issue between the IA and IAF about suppport for ground ops which has not been forthcoming fast and furious enough for the IA's liking.Even at kargil,it took two weeks for the IAF to begin ops ,requiring the PM's intervention according to informed sources.

The AVM has well refuted BK's numerous errors in his diatribe against the IAF. I have been reliably told that the real reason for the MMRCA delays is intense pressure from the US to scupper the deal.The US is applying huge pressure upon the MMS/UPA regime to toe its line in integrating the Indian armed forces into its order of battle in Asia and wants India to buy mainly US defence eqpt. which will make it easy for the US to use Indian base facilities for logistic purposes,and through NCW control the services in their theatres of operation during a crisis. While there are genuine nitty-gritty issues about the contours of the Rafale deal,these are not insurmountable and can be concluded before the UPA is trashed.

However,there is another sinister dimension,in the geo-strategic realm.The US/CIA is intensively supporting the Opposition in B'Desh,and wants to remove the pro-India Hasina regime .It is supporting the "human rights" agenda to save '71 Paki war criminals,who massacred lakhs of Bengalis in the former E.Pak.which it covertly and overtly supported through Nixon and Kissinger. If Hasina goes,she who has been handing over N-Eastern state extremists and terrorists to India ,we will face a similar terrorist insurgency from Bangladesh that we are facing on the Paki border.The plans have all been drawn up and the covert agencies have started their diabolic work. In the West,the Pakis are essential for the US to withdraw from Afghanistan successfully and require the Pakis as proxies to rule Afghanistan deposing Karzai by the Taliban and thereafter not to pose a threat to the US as OBL/Al Q did when it made Af. its international HQ.

The Pakis are extremely alarmed at the modernisation of the IAF,especially the Rafale acquisition, which will give the IAF a huge edge over its F-16s and legacy upgraded Mirages in western technology apart from the best of Russia tech too. They want US help in stalling/delaying as long as possible conclusion of the MMRCA deal.This is best achieved by getting India to acquire a US bird whose capabilities will be passed on to the Pakis and thus neutralise its effectiveness.That was the original plan-to get the IAF to buy the F-18SH,which MMS pushed for but could not budge the Saint who wanted his dhoti kept spotless. If the US cannot achieve this in the near future,it will use its clout in the PMO/MOD to as far as possible saboatge the Rafale.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 08 Nov 2013 09:16

Pratyush wrote:^^^

I saw an add from MRF, stating that it was selected to be a tyre suppliers for the Su 30.


yes, the Aero Muscle tyre for the Su-30MKI fleet..so that's one key spares issue that will be resolved for the IAF..with this one successfully done, similar tyres could be made for other aircraft in the fleet as well in the future, eliminating imports hopefully.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby r_subramanian » 08 Nov 2013 11:53

I am not if this is the right thread.

TOI Breaking news: Air Force plance crashes near Jamnagar in Gujarat

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby VikramS » 08 Nov 2013 11:54

mig29 down pilot safe jamnagar via aroor

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby krishnan » 08 Nov 2013 11:54

12:21 IAF plane on routine sortie crashes near Jamnagar, pilot safe: An Indian Air Force plane crashes in Jamnagar, Gujarat. The mishap is believed to have occurred at Ravalpar, which is about 25 km from Jamnagar and was on a routine sortie from the Jamnagar air base. The pilot is safe. The plane is believed to be a MiG-29 (popularly called Flying Coffins or Widow Makers for the number of accidents), but no confirmations as yet.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Garooda » 08 Nov 2013 19:51


Rahul M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Rahul M » 08 Nov 2013 20:41

krishnan wrote:
12:21 IAF plane on routine sortie crashes near Jamnagar, pilot safe: An Indian Air Force plane crashes in Jamnagar, Gujarat. The mishap is believed to have occurred at Ravalpar, which is about 25 km from Jamnagar and was on a routine sortie from the Jamnagar air base. The pilot is safe. The plane is believed to be a MiG-29 (popularly called Flying Coffins or Widow Makers for the number of accidents), but no confirmations as yet.

some numerically challenged journo who can't differentiate b/w 21 and 29. :roll:

anyway, good that the pilot ejected safely.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 09 Nov 2013 07:22

[quote="Rahul ]
some numerically challenged journo who can't differentiate b/w 21 and 29. :roll:

anyway, good that the pilot ejected safely.[/quote]

reading the piece gives an insight into the psy ops, that is going. The pilot is aware of the risks he is taking. But by calling it widow maker or flying coffin, an attempt is made to reach the family of the pilot.

The Indian media gleefully carries on the propaganda.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sancho » 09 Nov 2013 12:50

Can anybody tell me since when the IAF Mirage 2000s, had the rear fuselage hardpoints and what weapons IAF could use at them so far?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 10 Nov 2013 13:53

Air Force Station Jodhpur observes flight safety week

Some useful stats on the airbase. But I don't know why it is the largest airbase in SE Asia? I omitted that part. :lol:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 10 Nov 2013 18:19

incidentally the "flying coffin" term is much older than Mig 21's in IAF service. it was for a while used with the F104 starfighter in NATO useage

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_27847 » 10 Nov 2013 19:15

Philip wrote:The success of the Jaguar programme has been in that the DARIN upgrades were conceived at home and successfully implemented by the IAF/HAL,a true desi achievement.There has been a lot of matter written on the subject by various experts.This has kept the aircraft relevant to date and further upgrades of all aircraft ,mainly the engine,from Honywell are planned to extend the lifespan and capability of the bird which is vital for the IAF in the CS/GA role,as the aircraft is now taking over the rolethat the MIG-27s played.There has been a long debate and issue between the IA and IAF about suppport for ground ops which has not been forthcoming fast and furious enough for the IA's liking.Even at kargil,it took two weeks for the IAF to begin ops ,requiring the PM's intervention according to informed sources.

The AVM has well refuted BK's numerous errors in his diatribe against the IAF. I have been reliably told that the real reason for the MMRCA delays is intense pressure from the US to scupper the deal.The US is applying huge pressure upon the MMS/UPA regime to toe its line in integrating the Indian armed forces into its order of battle in Asia and wants India to buy mainly US defence eqpt. which will make it easy for the US to use Indian base facilities for logistic purposes,and through NCW control the services in their theatres of operation during a crisis. While there are genuine nitty-gritty issues about the contours of the Rafale deal,these are not insurmountable and can be concluded before the UPA is trashed.

However,there is another sinister dimension,in the geo-strategic realm.The US/CIA is intensively supporting the Opposition in B'Desh,and wants to remove the pro-India Hasina regime .It is supporting the "human rights" agenda to save '71 Paki war criminals,who massacred lakhs of Bengalis in the former E.Pak.which it covertly and overtly supported through Nixon and Kissinger. If Hasina goes,she who has been handing over N-Eastern state extremists and terrorists to India ,we will face a similar terrorist insurgency from Bangladesh that we are facing on the Paki border.The plans have all been drawn up and the covert agencies have started their diabolic work. In the West,the Pakis are essential for the US to withdraw from Afghanistan successfully and require the Pakis as proxies to rule Afghanistan deposing Karzai by the Taliban and thereafter not to pose a threat to the US as OBL/Al Q did when it made Af. its international HQ.

The Pakis are extremely alarmed at the modernisation of the IAF,especially the Rafale acquisition, which will give the IAF a huge edge over its F-16s and legacy upgraded Mirages in western technology apart from the best of Russia tech too. They want US help in stalling/delaying as long as possible conclusion of the MMRCA deal.This is best achieved by getting India to acquire a US bird whose capabilities will be passed on to the Pakis and thus neutralise its effectiveness.That was the original plan-to get the IAF to buy the F-18SH,which MMS pushed for but could not budge the Saint who wanted his dhoti kept spotless. If the US cannot achieve this in the near future,it will use its clout in the PMO/MOD to as far as possible saboatge the Rafale.


What will 126 Rafale do? Su-30s are enough for a war with Pakistan. If it is a two front war involving China also, even 126 Rafale will be grossly insufficient.

India needs 60+ squadrons (at least 40 for air defence) for a two front war.

The numbers are so huge that imports are not a viable option. The only way is to develop local industry - best by involving large industrial houses like Reliance, Tatas etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 10 Nov 2013 23:52

Marten wrote:Lalbrof, the term has been in existence since WW-I itself. In WW-II, the B26, and then much later, the F104 inherited this moniker.
I think any family associated with a pilot flying an aircraft beyond its usable age will be under duress in any case. The motivation of the pilots goes beyond such pressures, thanks to the organizational ethos. All said, the better they're (Mig 21, Bison or not) replaced, the better for the IAF.

PS: One can imagine how careful the LCA/NTFC teams would have been to avoid any incident, because the natural self-flagellating tendencies would have plagued that a/c. A salute once again to the ADA/NTFC teams.


Lavochkin Lagg-3 |
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/air ... hkin-Lagg3
Lavochkin Lagg-3, WWII Soviet Fighter. ... Friend', pilots joked that LaGG stood for 'Lakirovannii Garantirovannii Grob' or 'varnished, guaranteed coffin'.

Worth noting though the soviets persisted with it, and it resulted in the La-5, an excellent fighter, with a new engine.

Similarly, Sherman's were called Ronson lighters by the Brits and Tommy Cookers by the Germans.. Wet stowage was introduced thereafter I think

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 509AAK2e5q

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 13 Nov 2013 09:15

IAF had issued an RFI for 16 medium transports in 2010 to which ALENIA had responded with C 27J as part AVRO replacement. this morphed later as 56 (16 outright buy) of which 40 to be produced by the indian pvt sector venture only - per IAF - which is in contention now.

now it seems the US which ordered them wants to dispose off them!!! why can't an FMS route be taken and all 56 be acquired directly from US?? they are ready, new and possibly we may get them cheap too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 13 Nov 2013 09:30

The Saint will not take any decision without it being examined though the magnifying glass,the microscope and the telescope.After that it must run the gauntlet of babudom before a decision /recommendation is made by the MOD and it reaches the CCS.It is a lottery as to which deals will be finalised during the last days of the UPA-2. If the BJP sweep the state polls,or win at least 3 states,the Modi momentum will only increase and paralysis will hit decision making.Yesterday,Business Line had a centre page article on whether the Congress had already thrown in the towel even before the elections,judging from the statements of PC and Jairam Ramesh.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Nov 2013 20:52

pragnya wrote:now it seems the US which ordered them wants to dispose off them!!! why can't an FMS route be taken and all 56 be acquired directly from US?? they are ready, new and possibly we may get them cheap too.


I seem to recall something about the contract forbidding resale of the aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cosmo_R » 13 Nov 2013 21:05

How about leasing them via FMS?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 13 Nov 2013 21:20

There is much more at stake here than the 56 aircrafts. We need to build an aero industry here. I firmly support IAF here. Even if the C-27J is chosen, I wish the FMS route is never taken.

As an aside. I love how Tata is coming up in the aero industry and how fast. On one hand, they are building full cabins for Sikorsky. And on the other hand they are going to assemble entire Augusta Westland helis. Doesn't get more badass than that.


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