Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2013 11:59

we are in desperate need of SAR/GMTI mapping on HAL UAV to support the army commanders in each region. rather than a $5b order to enrich khan for the Ghawk-Lite if were dutiful about this the rustom2 would have been funded and staffed to completion by now.
the shiny new fleets of LCH and Apaches we are laying in will have nowhere to go unless provided accurate GMTI data on moving target sets and threat assessments of AAA sites by long range near realtime SAR platforms.

as usual we are sleeping on it while cheen is testing multiple heavy UAV types.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2013 19:04

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... rrier.aspx

this article says even the CVNs with full load of kit and excess pilots cannot manage DPSA sorties without land based tanker support...something we should think about as our operating areas might involve carriers south of indonesia but planes fighting battles over the south cheen sea.

we need to convert the nicobars into a unsinkable carrier and operations hub for refuelers, sukhois, pakfas and LRMP a/c .. something like hawaii and now guam. anything with long legs and a big stick should find several homes here to skulk around in.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vasu raya » 28 Nov 2013 19:43

Paging Kannan saab, related to the two Mi-17 collision at TACDE last year

Indian origin researcher develops fog clearing 'nano-camera' to make driving safer

Indian origin researcher has developed a camera that can see through fog, thus helping vehicles navigate through tough weather on their own and making driving safer.

The camera, created by a team led by Ramesh Raskar of the Camera Culture group at MIT's Media Lab, uses off-the-shelf LEDs that strobe at nanosecond periods, New Scientist reported.


The 3D " nano-camera" relies on time-of-flight photography, which measures how fast a light signal is reflected back to a camera to determine the distance of an object.

The 500 dollars camera distinguishes between direct and scattered or diffracted light, so it could be used in vehicle collision-avoidance technology or medical imaging.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17051
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Rahul M » 28 Nov 2013 19:47

singha saar, one item missing in carrier CV is AAR aircraft. I wonder why they don't use the C-2.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Nov 2013 20:48

buddy refueling is the norm, but in most recent ops, nato naval aviation has refuelled using standard nato tankers
as others have said, its been a long time since midway

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 28 Nov 2013 20:51

C-2 could barely refuel 1-2 planes while still keeping enough fuel to get itself back..so useful for emergency mode only. no wonder land based fleet of refuelers are needed to sustain navy ops , or the F-18E carries huge drop tanks.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17051
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Rahul M » 28 Nov 2013 22:41

the osprey is probably the only realistic option. it can be mod'ed into a decent AEW version too I guess.

2 interesting articles on AEW options for navies with sub-par carriers.
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/masc.htm
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... riers.html

edit : oops didn't realise I was in the Indian mil avia thread. no more on this here from me.

ashish raval
BRFite
Posts: 1390
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 00:49
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ashish raval » 29 Nov 2013 01:09

vasu raya wrote:Paging Kannan saab, related to the two Mi-17 collision at TACDE last year

Indian origin researcher develops fog clearing 'nano-camera' to make driving safer

Indian origin researcher has developed a camera that can see through fog, thus helping vehicles navigate through tough weather on their own and making driving safer.

The camera, created by a team led by Ramesh Raskar of the Camera Culture group at MIT's Media Lab, uses off-the-shelf LEDs that strobe at nanosecond periods, New Scientist reported.


The 3D " nano-camera" relies on time-of-flight photography, which measures how fast a light signal is reflected back to a camera to determine the distance of an object.

The 500 dollars camera distinguishes between direct and scattered or diffracted light, so it could be used in vehicle collision-avoidance technology or medical imaging.


I knew US military had been trying for these technology since 1997. This is amazing stuff with very far reaching consequences.

member_23455
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_23455 » 29 Nov 2013 08:25

Singha wrote:C-2 could barely refuel 1-2 planes while still keeping enough fuel to get itself back..so useful for emergency mode only. no wonder land based fleet of refuelers are needed to sustain navy ops , or the F-18E carries huge drop tanks.



You are confusing the C-2 with the S-3. The C-2 does not do AAR, it does not even deploy with the carrier, but operates from the shore to the carrier and back as a cargo carriage platform.

The S-3 was the USN's dual-role ASW/AAR platform but has long been retired. The F/A-18E in a typical "five-wet" (five external tanks) configuration is now the default onboard tanker.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2013 12:08

my post was in response to someone asking why the C-2 is not used as a tanker. your reply makes it even more clear why..if its going to be land based , far capable options are available.

this whole buddy-buddy thing might be ok for pinpricky/low volume attack sorties but quickly dies when concerted high volume sorties are needed.

thats why I always howl for a big of big bases in the nicobars and more refuelers like MRTT or even 2nd hand 737 types converted by some boeing subcontractor. long range war depends on one thing at #1 priority - refueling and time on station.

if you cant get to the fight & back, you have zero influence.

member_23455
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_23455 » 29 Nov 2013 12:53

A major tanking effort has always needed the Air Force, even for the USN at the height of the Cold War. The Nicobar base now with ANC becoming a Navy command is also poised tantalizingly.

So, essentially from an IN aviation assets strike planning PoV either:

1. We get to US like levels of joint operations with the IAF tankers.
2. The IN gets its own tankers in the same league as the IAF fleet.

:rotfl: ...NAK Browne's "can't have mini air forces" comment looks destined for some interesting karma

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 29 Nov 2013 13:01

given our geography and threats, if we have carrier borne aircraft refuelling from A&N based tankers, we may as well have the aircraft operating out of A&N instead of from a carrier

the option it gives is that of flexibility - i.e. keeping aircraft on station and allowing the cbg to move off to a different location

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2013 13:29

we need both imo because the heavies like su30/pakfa/rafale will not operate from carriers. and lets not forget the needs of tanking will be a lot less if the CBG launching the fighters are 1500km closer to the action, vs tanking all the planes out and in..thats simply not sustainable even for a fleet of 40 strike a/c needing 2 tankings out and 2 on way in.
a CBG is also harder to target using missiles than a static airbase.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 29 Nov 2013 19:55

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... 99-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 30 Nov 2013 10:41

Singha wrote:note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale


:roll: don't count me in that. when i said -

pragnya wrote:
Singha wrote:Shaurya has the huge advantage in range over Brahmos. @ 1000km it can still take a considerable payload...enough to rip the guts out of a carrier 8 decks deep, where a brahmos homing in at sea level might just mission kill it.

not that I am opposed to the idea of a combined Shaurya + brahmos attack - one starting from 30km high and the other at sea level.


love your posts. big, bigger and biggest for you - always and everytime!! :)


i genuinely meant it.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 30 Nov 2013 12:10

Image

Image


chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 02 Dec 2013 10:19

Air Marshal RK Jolly visits Headquarter - Maritime Air Operations in Mumbai

Since 2009, there have been no visits by SC AOC? , since there was no news after 2009 announcement.

nash
BRFite
Posts: 890
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby nash » 02 Dec 2013 13:07

Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/120223-f-zz999-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale


pardon my ignorance but which aircraft is this?, seem like blackjacks but you said not.

------------------------

ok got it B-1B i think

Sriman
BRFite
Posts: 1858
Joined: 02 Mar 2009 11:38
Location: Committee for the Promotion of Vice and the Prevention of Virtue

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sriman » 02 Dec 2013 13:13

nash wrote:
Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/120223-f-zz999-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale


pardon my ignorance but which aircraft is this?, seem like blackjacks but you said not.

That's the B-1B Lancer.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 03 Dec 2013 00:34

Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/120223-f-zz999-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale


i'll buy you all the beers and kababs you can ensoi the day india does anything like this. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8103
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby nachiket » 03 Dec 2013 00:53


So Praful Patel's trying to pull off a Renuka Chaudhary eh? Our cabinet ministers really need to stop meddling in the affairs of the MoD. And the MoD needs to grow a pair and ask them to take a hike if they do.

Misraji
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 11:53
Location: USA

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Misraji » 03 Dec 2013 02:40

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/120223-f-zz999-603.jpg
marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!
note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale

i'll buy you all the beers and kababs you can ensoi the day india does anything like this. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Heck. KaranM Sir, you can buy Beers and Kababs the day Singha Sir downsizes his dreams .... :mrgreen:

--Ashish

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 03 Dec 2013 03:08

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/120223-f-zz999-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale


i'll buy you all the beers and kababs you can ensoi the day india does anything like this. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


That is not enough.

BR tradition demands that the kababs have to weigh as much as these "sharp nosed arab horses". And, of course, in this case the beer to match and last the kababs.

And, just BTW, India did get an Akula.

govardhanks
BRFite
Posts: 220
Joined: 08 Jun 2009 23:12
Location: Earth

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby govardhanks » 05 Dec 2013 16:27

I have small question what happens to old aircraft which are decommissioned?

Aditya Watts
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 30 Jun 2010 13:19
Location: Netherlands

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya Watts » 05 Dec 2013 17:05

govardhanks wrote:I have small question what happens to old aircraft which are decommissioned?

Depending on the specific agreements and the degree of airworthiness they are either put in storage, used for target practice, scrapped, or distributed as static displays.

govardhanks
BRFite
Posts: 220
Joined: 08 Jun 2009 23:12
Location: Earth

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby govardhanks » 05 Dec 2013 18:56

There are few applications which I have read somewhere might be useful for us
1. Unmanned Aerial Vehicle,
2. Cruise missile,
3. Decoys.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj00/spr00/thompson.htm
http://www.fastcompany.com/1805309/converting-trashed-jets-exploding-drones

It might be cost effective I guess.

Between what agreement are you talking about after aircraft retires? could you please tell

Aditya Watts
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 30 Jun 2010 13:19
Location: Netherlands

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya Watts » 05 Dec 2013 21:32

Of course my list was not exhaustive. Other options are also possible, for example the options give by you :)
With specific agreements I talk about possible contracts or agreements in which it says what to do after a certain plane retires. For example, it happens sometimes that aircraft that are being phased out are sold to other countries, but whether this is possible depends on certain agreements. For example, the country where a plane originally comes from may or may not allow sale to another country due to embargoes or other reasons.

Perhaps the gurus can give a more elaborate/precise answer regarding your queries :)

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2013 14:16

Seven companies in fray to overhaul IAF jets

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ce-command

Facing recurring problems with the original equipment manufacturers abroad, the IAF now plans to hand over a part of the work for extending the life of its Mig-29 and AN-32 aircraft to domestic companies.

member_25399
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 67
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_25399 » 06 Dec 2013 14:40

^^^^
Anything going wrong with current Mig-29 UPG upgrade ?

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12423
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Dec 2013 15:44

Looks like IAF wants to KIck HAL out of the Indian part of the MIG 29 and AN-32 upgrade, atleat partially.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5348
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 06 Dec 2013 16:48

I don't think they were involved in the first place..in both cases, the BRD was supposed to be the agency responsible for assembling the kits and carrying out the upgrades.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2013 17:07

I think IAF wants some 3rd party firm to take over the hassle of dealing with 300-400 suppliers per aircraft, determining spares req. and doing all the running around to get the aircraft ready. Plus then doing the overhaul. The IAF just wants to be the user, with minimal hassle, having specified merely the optimal serviceability they want. Aims apart, time will tell whether they can achieve them.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 06 Dec 2013 19:36

Karan M wrote:I think IAF wants some 3rd party firm to take over the hassle of dealing with 300-400 suppliers per aircraft, determining spares req. and doing all the running around to get the aircraft ready. Plus then doing the overhaul. The IAF just wants to be the user, with minimal hassle, having specified merely the optimal serviceability they want. Aims apart, time will tell whether they can achieve them.


wasn't Basant Aerospcae already given the contract to maintain the radar/spares for Mig 29 post upg??

OTOH when IAF is thinking of shedding even the overhauls, why were they talking of getting into design/production of new trainers/combat aircrafts in future??

quoting from the article -

The IAF also plans to assemble Swiss trainer aircraft Pilatus PC-7 trainer aircraft being acquired by India. After delivery of 76 aircraft, the next 100 will be assembled at the base repair depots of the maintenance command.


????

is the MOD/GOI renegotiating the Pilatus deal beyong 75 for TOT/Assembly?? AFAIK HAL was asked to go ahead with HTT 40 overruling IAF!!

is it possible the BRD wants to shed the overhaul work of the existing fleets to plan assembly of Pilatus?? or is it an informed plan on the IAF's part to slowly bring in the pvt sector into overhauls/Pilatus assembly etc??

while bringing in the pvt sector is definitely a good idea, how will it play out with - Praful Patel already questioning the IAF avro plan to 'only' pvt sector - as an indicator??

why is it so difficult for all the stake holders - users, public, pvt sector and MOD to sit and politely take stock and sort out the issues - which are real, specially when IAF repeatedly has gone public negatively on HAL complicating the issue even further??

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2013 00:13

good details as always. seems basant is going to provide the spares for the mig-29 upg via MiG. so they might be looking for second line maintenance and overhaul alone... in which case to keep things simple, they might have chosen basant itself..unless usual avoid single vendor stuff came into picture.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 07 Dec 2013 12:43

Karan M wrote:good details as always. seems basant is going to provide the spares for the mig-29 upg via MiG. so they might be looking for second line maintenance and overhaul alone... in which case to keep things simple, they might have chosen basant itself..unless usual avoid single vendor stuff came into picture.


could be but the fact is slowly but surely IAF is distancing itself from the HAL!!

take the case of MI 17s, Mig 29s, AN-32s - now BRDs assemble/overhaul it. even in SU 30MKI overhaul - IAF has already taken over part of it and wants to improve on that. detalis below -

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... pair-depot

Similarly, IAF has also taken up the job to overhaul SU30 fighter planes. However, it is still at an initial stage, with only 5 to 10% of the job being done here. However, Kanakraj hopes for an improvement in the coming days.

Normally, public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) does the job of assembling aircraft. But recently even the IAF has diversified into this field, starting with helicopters. So far, even the overhaul of SU30s was done by HAL, which makes the aircraft, but due to the increasing workload, IAF has taken up a part of the job.


net, it seems to be well orchestrated plan on IAF's part to sideline HAL from self. perse i would welcome it because HAL has far too much on its plate and needs to offload part of its load plus we need other entities who can do jobs like overhaul and support. it does not matter if they are from pvt sector as it only gives them heads up and grounding to get involved in far complex deals.

however what is intriguing is the way IAF is going ahead with its plan. they took away from HAL saying they will do it themselves and now want it to be offloaded to the pvt sector. while the intent may be positive but the method is not IMO.

- i do feel there is a need for IAF to drop its aggressive stance and simplify the already difficult situation deteriorating further.

- HAL needs to get leaner and meaner instead of wanting a pie in everything - they need to concentrate on their core competencies and work around it for ex - helis and prod agency for the rest.

- at the same time MOD needs to get out of its slumber and intervene to sort out the feud before it reaches a point of no return.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 11 Dec 2013 04:06

earlier rule of thumb was that IAF overhauls aircraft not lic manufactured at HAL and HAL supports it. hence, historically mig-23 bn and mig-29s were both overhauled at brd. only exception to this rule was mirage 2000.
su-30 is really a new development and clearly shows IAF is fed up of delays at HAL and is seeking to improve aircraft numbers available on their own. but they cant replicate HAL as they will be dependent on spares and aggregates from HAL which is making Su-30s from raw materials.
hopefully, with better leadership at MOD next year, these issues will get sorted out.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 11 Dec 2013 07:05

^^^

Here's a car analogy:
  • Car gets manufactured/assembled by an entity (OEM/OEM-like) which in this case would be Irkut and the HAL since this requires extensive infrastructure to be in place.
  • Car gets maintained by mechanic shops (and/or OEM outlets) which in this case would be the IAF's BRD and in some cases HAL. There are many different specialisations required here: engine, airframe, mechanical parts and avionics (radar, MFDs and computers). Parts could be sourced from either OEM or OEM-equivalent. Minor upgrades/improvements (and sometimes major upgrades) can be performed by these mechanic shops as long as they have extensive support from OEM and testing facilities.

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 11 Dec 2013 07:21

gauravsh wrote:^^^^
Anything going wrong with current Mig-29 UPG upgrade ?


They are heading for the same problems what HAL faces and will try to deflect this with this move. Don't ask me details.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby koti » 11 Dec 2013 07:32

India is exporting two HAL Cheetahs to Afgan AF
Link


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests