Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

we are in desperate need of SAR/GMTI mapping on HAL UAV to support the army commanders in each region. rather than a $5b order to enrich khan for the Ghawk-Lite if were dutiful about this the rustom2 would have been funded and staffed to completion by now.
the shiny new fleets of LCH and Apaches we are laying in will have nowhere to go unless provided accurate GMTI data on moving target sets and threat assessments of AAA sites by long range near realtime SAR platforms.

as usual we are sleeping on it while cheen is testing multiple heavy UAV types.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... rrier.aspx

this article says even the CVNs with full load of kit and excess pilots cannot manage DPSA sorties without land based tanker support...something we should think about as our operating areas might involve carriers south of indonesia but planes fighting battles over the south cheen sea.

we need to convert the nicobars into a unsinkable carrier and operations hub for refuelers, sukhois, pakfas and LRMP a/c .. something like hawaii and now guam. anything with long legs and a big stick should find several homes here to skulk around in.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by vasu raya »

Paging Kannan saab, related to the two Mi-17 collision at TACDE last year

Indian origin researcher develops fog clearing 'nano-camera' to make driving safer
Indian origin researcher has developed a camera that can see through fog, thus helping vehicles navigate through tough weather on their own and making driving safer.

The camera, created by a team led by Ramesh Raskar of the Camera Culture group at MIT's Media Lab, uses off-the-shelf LEDs that strobe at nanosecond periods, New Scientist reported.


The 3D " nano-camera" relies on time-of-flight photography, which measures how fast a light signal is reflected back to a camera to determine the distance of an object.

The 500 dollars camera distinguishes between direct and scattered or diffracted light, so it could be used in vehicle collision-avoidance technology or medical imaging.
Rahul M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Rahul M »

singha saar, one item missing in carrier CV is AAR aircraft. I wonder why they don't use the C-2.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Lalmohan »

buddy refueling is the norm, but in most recent ops, nato naval aviation has refuelled using standard nato tankers
as others have said, its been a long time since midway
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

C-2 could barely refuel 1-2 planes while still keeping enough fuel to get itself back..so useful for emergency mode only. no wonder land based fleet of refuelers are needed to sustain navy ops , or the F-18E carries huge drop tanks.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Rahul M »

the osprey is probably the only realistic option. it can be mod'ed into a decent AEW version too I guess.

2 interesting articles on AEW options for navies with sub-par carriers.
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/masc.htm
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... riers.html

edit : oops didn't realise I was in the Indian mil avia thread. no more on this here from me.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by ashish raval »

vasu raya wrote:Paging Kannan saab, related to the two Mi-17 collision at TACDE last year

Indian origin researcher develops fog clearing 'nano-camera' to make driving safer
Indian origin researcher has developed a camera that can see through fog, thus helping vehicles navigate through tough weather on their own and making driving safer.

The camera, created by a team led by Ramesh Raskar of the Camera Culture group at MIT's Media Lab, uses off-the-shelf LEDs that strobe at nanosecond periods, New Scientist reported.


The 3D " nano-camera" relies on time-of-flight photography, which measures how fast a light signal is reflected back to a camera to determine the distance of an object.

The 500 dollars camera distinguishes between direct and scattered or diffracted light, so it could be used in vehicle collision-avoidance technology or medical imaging.
I knew US military had been trying for these technology since 1997. This is amazing stuff with very far reaching consequences.
member_23455
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_23455 »

Singha wrote:C-2 could barely refuel 1-2 planes while still keeping enough fuel to get itself back..so useful for emergency mode only. no wonder land based fleet of refuelers are needed to sustain navy ops , or the F-18E carries huge drop tanks.

You are confusing the C-2 with the S-3. The C-2 does not do AAR, it does not even deploy with the carrier, but operates from the shore to the carrier and back as a cargo carriage platform.

The S-3 was the USN's dual-role ASW/AAR platform but has long been retired. The F/A-18E in a typical "five-wet" (five external tanks) configuration is now the default onboard tanker.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

my post was in response to someone asking why the C-2 is not used as a tanker. your reply makes it even more clear why..if its going to be land based , far capable options are available.

this whole buddy-buddy thing might be ok for pinpricky/low volume attack sorties but quickly dies when concerted high volume sorties are needed.

thats why I always howl for a big of big bases in the nicobars and more refuelers like MRTT or even 2nd hand 737 types converted by some boeing subcontractor. long range war depends on one thing at #1 priority - refueling and time on station.

if you cant get to the fight & back, you have zero influence.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_23455 »

A major tanking effort has always needed the Air Force, even for the USN at the height of the Cold War. The Nicobar base now with ANC becoming a Navy command is also poised tantalizingly.

So, essentially from an IN aviation assets strike planning PoV either:

1. We get to US like levels of joint operations with the IAF tankers.
2. The IN gets its own tankers in the same league as the IAF fleet.

:rotfl: ...NAK Browne's "can't have mini air forces" comment looks destined for some interesting karma
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Lalmohan »

given our geography and threats, if we have carrier borne aircraft refuelling from A&N based tankers, we may as well have the aircraft operating out of A&N instead of from a carrier

the option it gives is that of flexibility - i.e. keeping aircraft on station and allowing the cbg to move off to a different location
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

we need both imo because the heavies like su30/pakfa/rafale will not operate from carriers. and lets not forget the needs of tanking will be a lot less if the CBG launching the fighters are 1500km closer to the action, vs tanking all the planes out and in..thats simply not sustainable even for a fleet of 40 strike a/c needing 2 tankings out and 2 on way in.
a CBG is also harder to target using missiles than a static airbase.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... 99-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by pragnya »

Singha wrote:note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale
:roll: don't count me in that. when i said -
pragnya wrote:
Singha wrote:Shaurya has the huge advantage in range over Brahmos. @ 1000km it can still take a considerable payload...enough to rip the guts out of a carrier 8 decks deep, where a brahmos homing in at sea level might just mission kill it.

not that I am opposed to the idea of a combined Shaurya + brahmos attack - one starting from 30km high and the other at sea level.
love your posts. big, bigger and biggest for you - always and everytime!! :)
i genuinely meant it.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Austin »

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by chackojoseph »

Air Marshal RK Jolly visits Headquarter - Maritime Air Operations in Mumbai

Since 2009, there have been no visits by SC AOC? , since there was no news after 2009 announcement.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by nash »

Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... 99-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale
pardon my ignorance but which aircraft is this?, seem like blackjacks but you said not.

------------------------

ok got it B-1B i think
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Sriman »

nash wrote:
Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... 99-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale
pardon my ignorance but which aircraft is this?, seem like blackjacks but you said not.
That's the B-1B Lancer.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... 99-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale
i'll buy you all the beers and kababs you can ensoi the day india does anything like this. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by nachiket »

So Praful Patel's trying to pull off a Renuka Chaudhary eh? Our cabinet ministers really need to stop meddling in the affairs of the MoD. And the MoD needs to grow a pair and ask them to take a hike if they do.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Misraji »

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... 99-603.jpg
marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!
note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale
i'll buy you all the beers and kababs you can ensoi the day india does anything like this. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Heck. KaranM Sir, you can buy Beers and Kababs the day Singha Sir downsizes his dreams .... :mrgreen:

--Ashish
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by NRao »

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/up ... 99-603.jpg

marshallah, 40 of these sharp nosed arab horses would spread peace, love and democracy all the way from kashgar to hainan. if wishes were horses!

note: for people who usually bash me for maximalist rants, these are NOT blackjacks...I have downsized my dreams to a more modest scale
i'll buy you all the beers and kababs you can ensoi the day india does anything like this. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
That is not enough.

BR tradition demands that the kababs have to weigh as much as these "sharp nosed arab horses". And, of course, in this case the beer to match and last the kababs.

And, just BTW, India did get an Akula.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by govardhanks »

I have small question what happens to old aircraft which are decommissioned?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Aditya Watts »

govardhanks wrote:I have small question what happens to old aircraft which are decommissioned?
Depending on the specific agreements and the degree of airworthiness they are either put in storage, used for target practice, scrapped, or distributed as static displays.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by govardhanks »

There are few applications which I have read somewhere might be useful for us
1. Unmanned Aerial Vehicle,
2. Cruise missile,
3. Decoys.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... ompson.htm
http://www.fastcompany.com/1805309/conv ... ing-drones

It might be cost effective I guess.

Between what agreement are you talking about after aircraft retires? could you please tell
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Aditya Watts »

Of course my list was not exhaustive. Other options are also possible, for example the options give by you :)
With specific agreements I talk about possible contracts or agreements in which it says what to do after a certain plane retires. For example, it happens sometimes that aircraft that are being phased out are sold to other countries, but whether this is possible depends on certain agreements. For example, the country where a plane originally comes from may or may not allow sale to another country due to embargoes or other reasons.

Perhaps the gurus can give a more elaborate/precise answer regarding your queries :)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Seven companies in fray to overhaul IAF jets

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ce-command

Facing recurring problems with the original equipment manufacturers abroad, the IAF now plans to hand over a part of the work for extending the life of its Mig-29 and AN-32 aircraft to domestic companies.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by member_25399 »

^^^^
Anything going wrong with current Mig-29 UPG upgrade ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Aditya_V »

Looks like IAF wants to KIck HAL out of the Indian part of the MIG 29 and AN-32 upgrade, atleat partially.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Kartik »

I don't think they were involved in the first place..in both cases, the BRD was supposed to be the agency responsible for assembling the kits and carrying out the upgrades.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

I think IAF wants some 3rd party firm to take over the hassle of dealing with 300-400 suppliers per aircraft, determining spares req. and doing all the running around to get the aircraft ready. Plus then doing the overhaul. The IAF just wants to be the user, with minimal hassle, having specified merely the optimal serviceability they want. Aims apart, time will tell whether they can achieve them.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by pragnya »

Karan M wrote:I think IAF wants some 3rd party firm to take over the hassle of dealing with 300-400 suppliers per aircraft, determining spares req. and doing all the running around to get the aircraft ready. Plus then doing the overhaul. The IAF just wants to be the user, with minimal hassle, having specified merely the optimal serviceability they want. Aims apart, time will tell whether they can achieve them.
wasn't Basant Aerospcae already given the contract to maintain the radar/spares for Mig 29 post upg??

OTOH when IAF is thinking of shedding even the overhauls, why were they talking of getting into design/production of new trainers/combat aircrafts in future??

quoting from the article -
The IAF also plans to assemble Swiss trainer aircraft Pilatus PC-7 trainer aircraft being acquired by India. After delivery of 76 aircraft, the next 100 will be assembled at the base repair depots of the maintenance command.


????

is the MOD/GOI renegotiating the Pilatus deal beyong 75 for TOT/Assembly?? AFAIK HAL was asked to go ahead with HTT 40 overruling IAF!!

is it possible the BRD wants to shed the overhaul work of the existing fleets to plan assembly of Pilatus?? or is it an informed plan on the IAF's part to slowly bring in the pvt sector into overhauls/Pilatus assembly etc??

while bringing in the pvt sector is definitely a good idea, how will it play out with - Praful Patel already questioning the IAF avro plan to 'only' pvt sector - as an indicator??

why is it so difficult for all the stake holders - users, public, pvt sector and MOD to sit and politely take stock and sort out the issues - which are real, specially when IAF repeatedly has gone public negatively on HAL complicating the issue even further??
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

good details as always. seems basant is going to provide the spares for the mig-29 upg via MiG. so they might be looking for second line maintenance and overhaul alone... in which case to keep things simple, they might have chosen basant itself..unless usual avoid single vendor stuff came into picture.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by pragnya »

Karan M wrote:good details as always. seems basant is going to provide the spares for the mig-29 upg via MiG. so they might be looking for second line maintenance and overhaul alone... in which case to keep things simple, they might have chosen basant itself..unless usual avoid single vendor stuff came into picture.
could be but the fact is slowly but surely IAF is distancing itself from the HAL!!

take the case of MI 17s, Mig 29s, AN-32s - now BRDs assemble/overhaul it. even in SU 30MKI overhaul - IAF has already taken over part of it and wants to improve on that. detalis below -

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... pair-depot
Similarly, IAF has also taken up the job to overhaul SU30 fighter planes. However, it is still at an initial stage, with only 5 to 10% of the job being done here. However, Kanakraj hopes for an improvement in the coming days.

Normally, public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) does the job of assembling aircraft. But recently even the IAF has diversified into this field, starting with helicopters. So far, even the overhaul of SU30s was done by HAL, which makes the aircraft, but due to the increasing workload, IAF has taken up a part of the job.
net, it seems to be well orchestrated plan on IAF's part to sideline HAL from self. perse i would welcome it because HAL has far too much on its plate and needs to offload part of its load plus we need other entities who can do jobs like overhaul and support. it does not matter if they are from pvt sector as it only gives them heads up and grounding to get involved in far complex deals.

however what is intriguing is the way IAF is going ahead with its plan. they took away from HAL saying they will do it themselves and now want it to be offloaded to the pvt sector. while the intent may be positive but the method is not IMO.

- i do feel there is a need for IAF to drop its aggressive stance and simplify the already difficult situation deteriorating further.

- HAL needs to get leaner and meaner instead of wanting a pie in everything - they need to concentrate on their core competencies and work around it for ex - helis and prod agency for the rest.

- at the same time MOD needs to get out of its slumber and intervene to sort out the feud before it reaches a point of no return.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

earlier rule of thumb was that IAF overhauls aircraft not lic manufactured at HAL and HAL supports it. hence, historically mig-23 bn and mig-29s were both overhauled at brd. only exception to this rule was mirage 2000.
su-30 is really a new development and clearly shows IAF is fed up of delays at HAL and is seeking to improve aircraft numbers available on their own. but they cant replicate HAL as they will be dependent on spares and aggregates from HAL which is making Su-30s from raw materials.
hopefully, with better leadership at MOD next year, these issues will get sorted out.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by srai »

^^^

Here's a car analogy:
  • Car gets manufactured/assembled by an entity (OEM/OEM-like) which in this case would be Irkut and the HAL since this requires extensive infrastructure to be in place.
  • Car gets maintained by mechanic shops (and/or OEM outlets) which in this case would be the IAF's BRD and in some cases HAL. There are many different specialisations required here: engine, airframe, mechanical parts and avionics (radar, MFDs and computers). Parts could be sourced from either OEM or OEM-equivalent. Minor upgrades/improvements (and sometimes major upgrades) can be performed by these mechanic shops as long as they have extensive support from OEM and testing facilities.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by chackojoseph »

gauravsh wrote:^^^^
Anything going wrong with current Mig-29 UPG upgrade ?
They are heading for the same problems what HAL faces and will try to deflect this with this move. Don't ask me details.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by koti »

India is exporting two HAL Cheetahs to Afgan AF
Link
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