Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 19 Dec 2013 15:09

Checkout the long chakkar our P8i just made ► http://fr24.com/IN320

BOM spotters were on standby for the past 30 mins, then she changed course

morem · Post by **morem** » 19 Dec 2013 17:00

Just saw a Rustom flying at low level above the cisco office on ORR ,made my day

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Dec 2013 00:34

Was this posted here?

The right way to arm

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Dec 2013 04:46

indranilroy wrote:Was this posted here?

The right way to arm

Only issue is the "firm" quantity required is too small: 56 planes. The IAF needs to combine the replacement of both 56 x HS-748s and 105 x An-32s into that order. Plus, the IN could also standardise on 24 x Medium MPA fleet on this new type. Apart from the services, national civilian carriers could also add to the tally. I would think at the minimum there should be a "potential" 200 units order (w/ 60 firm order) for it to be viable for a lead private sector involvement.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 04:52

Agree!!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Dec 2013 06:55

In Tejas' shadow, Sitara trainer also poised to enter service

The Sitara intermediate trainer readies for a test flight at HAL Bangalore, on Wednesday. HAL says the trainer will enter service within weeks

"We have accelerated flight testing dramatically this year, doing 183 sorties - thrice as many as any preceding year. Last month we completed bombing trials and extra fuel tank trials in Jamnagar. Now we are completing the stall and spin tests, after which we will get the IOC," says Krishna Kumar, Project Manager IJT for HAL.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Dec 2013 08:44

The complimentary blog entry has two pictures (click for higher resolution).

I am quite sure that this particular plane is outfitted for spin tests. I could make out the following changes
1. I had not noticed those ventral fins before. Some LSPs show it, others don't.
2. The nose strakes are gone.
3. The wing fences are gone. They have been replaced by vortex generators before the ailerons. I think the ailerons are also ribbed now.
4. It is fitted with what looks like a spin chute.

P.S. I would really like to know about Sitara's gun pod(12.7 mm gun along with ammunition mounted under the fuselage) and fuel drop tanks (probably the same as Kiran's 226 litre drop tanks).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Dec 2013 08:47

When it rains it pours!!!!!

Perhaps the greatest of surprises for me.

Well, now all that remains is the AMCA.

Wonder if they have been making dramatic progress as they have done with the LCA and the Sitara. Bet they have.

And, that nugget about the HTT-40.

Silence is golden.

aditya_d · Post by **aditya_d** » 20 Dec 2013 09:56

Military chopper makes emergency landing

The military helicopter that made an emergency landing at 24 Area Stadium in Yellendu of Khammam district on Thursday.– PHOTO: G.N. RAO
A military helicopter equipped with modern gadgets including electronic security systems, made an emergency landing at 24 Area Stadium in Yellendu town on Thursday after it developed a technical glitch.

Sources said that the HAL-designed chopper (J4064) hovered above the coal town for quite some time before landing at the stadium around noon. The chopper, carrying three personnel of the Indian armed forces, was on its way to Hyderabad from Visakhapatnam. The chopper crew alerted their higher ups in Hyderabad who in turn requisitioned the services of technicians from HAL, Bangalore. Meanwhile, police officials rushed to the spot and made security arrangements at the stadium.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 21 Dec 2013 02:16

In addition to what Indranil pointed out, on the Sitara:
There are additional antennae on the vertical tail.
That red capped thing, also on the vertical tail, near the leading edge tip. Looks too big for a light and I wonder if some basic RWR-type equipment is being put on these aircraft. It could also just be a port for a camera/other data acquisition for flight testing.

And that serial, S3852! The previous protos did not have sequential serials. I wonder how many protos are actually flying now.
Anybody know the serials of the HJT-36 protos other that S3466 and S3474?
Added later: Livefist also has photos of S3851.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Dec 2013 04:46

I am not a hundred percent sure that those are antennas. I think they work very similar to the anti-spin strakes used at the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizers. A modern example can be found in the Super Tucano. Basically, they energize the airflow on the vertical stab and the rudder. They might also be creating a dampening effect by creating asymmetric vortexes in a flat spin.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 21 Dec 2013 13:49

Good observation Dennis. There don't seem to be pictures of any other than those 4 serial numbers.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 21 Dec 2013 14:29

What is the final engine for sitara?

mody · Post by **mody** » 21 Dec 2013 15:11

The engine is AL55I.
If HAL can really manage the IOC for IJT, within the next 3-4 months, it will significantly improve their case for the HTT-40 development.
Even IAF will be forced to go along and abandon its push for additional 100 plus Pilatus, if IJT sitara gets the IOC shortly.

If it happens as is being projected by HAL, it will surely be great news for Indian aviation Industry.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 21 Dec 2013 15:43

srai wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Was this posted here?

The right way to arm
Only issue is the "firm" quantity required is too small: 56 planes. The IAF needs to combine the replacement of both 56 x HS-748s and 105 x An-32s into that order. Plus, the IN could also standardise on 24 x Medium MPA fleet on this new type. Apart from the services, national civilian carriers could also add to the tally. I would think at the minimum there should be a "potential" 200 units order (w/ 60 firm order) for it to be viable for a lead private sector involvement.

We meed to keep in mind that there are two programmes in the transport aircraft dommain. One is this HS-748 replacement to be made by the Private sector and the other is the HAL MTA. The 100+ AN-32s that you have added to the light transporter tally are in fact to be replaced by the HAL MTA. And we are projected to buy only 40 of these(the claim that the Russians are going to buy another 100 is a load of bull and thankfully HAL is now admitting that). Fact of the matter is that neither programme have enough numbers to become sustainable. The best thing to do would be to just choose one and try to maximize our gains form it.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 21 Dec 2013 21:48

The chopper that made emergency landing seems to be RUDRA WSI!!!!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 21 Dec 2013 21:51

One of the main concerns with IJT was the engine. It reportedly had only 200 hours MTBO which was way less for these type of engines. IAF was looking for 1000-2000 hours MTBO. Wonder whether the russians have solved that issue??

There were also some issues with its spin characteristics. I thought that was the reason the strakes were added earlier, after wind tunnel tests. Now that they are gone, have they made other improvements instead of the strakes?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Dec 2013 22:46

How is a 20-tonne cargo capacity aircraft (MTA) going to be a replacement for 3.5 tonne capacity AN-32? This is one aspect that completely beats me.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Dec 2013 23:00

err rohit, the an-32 has a max T/O wt of 27 tons.

my one big gripe with the MTA is that it wont be able to carry any modern ICV, which would all weigh on the 20-25 t bracket.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 21 Dec 2013 23:44

mody wrote:The engine is AL55I.
If HAL can really manage the IOC for IJT, within the next 3-4 months, it will significantly improve their case for the HTT-40 development.
Even IAF will be forced to go along and abandon its push for additional 100 plus Pilatus, if IJT sitara gets the IOC shortly.

If it happens as is being projected by HAL, it will surely be great news for Indian aviation Industry.

Geat news about IOC. Hope it has good range and/or drop tanks to increase range too.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Dec 2013 00:19

Rahul M wrote:err rohit, the an-32 has a max T/O wt of 27 tons.my one big gripe with the MTA is that it wont be able to carry any modern ICV, which would all weigh on the 20-25 t bracket.

I was referring to the load carrying capacity of an AN-32. I remembered 3.5 tonnes as the number but Google tells me its that maximum payload is 6.7 tonnnes (http://www.antonov.com/aircraft/transpo ... erformance).

And with this payload, the range is limited to 780 kms. The same is 1,600 kms with 5.0 tonnes load. Wikipedia tells me that cargo carrying capacity of MTA will be 20 tonnes - this is more on the lines of C-130 Hercules.

Hence, my question about 1-to-1 replacement of An-32 with MTA.

There are many airfield - like our ALG in NE - where I don't think a MTA will be able to land. Further, at 33.2 meter length, it is ~10 meter longer than an AN-32. Both the length of runway plus circulation space for the aircraft (for lack of better word) would be an issue.

An-32 are required for theater level role to address the spokes in hub-and-spoke model. For example, I wrote in one of the threads about air-maintenance of Indian Army outposts along the McMahon Line - this air-maintenance consists of para-dropping food items from Chabua and Mohanbari using Mi-17 and An-32. An-32 comes into play in case of larger loads. Further, helicopters and An-32 also service the ALG in terms of cargo and troop movement.

To undertake this role, IAF has based AN-32 in Jorhat [which also coincidentally happens to be base of 21 Para (SF)] which also maintain detachments out of Chabua in upper Brahmaputra Valley.

To give you an example, IAF operates an air-courier service comprising of IL-76 which flies from Delhi and services (IIRC) Bagdogra and Chabua. Where required, IA personnel posted to forward areas reach these airbases through smaller a/c or helicopter and then fly out on the courier.

So, while the IL-76 flies from main nodes across India to larger airbase like Chabua and Tejpur and Bagdogra, helicopters and An-32 undertake the last mile connectivity.

The way I see it - IAF may rationalize the requirement for AN-32 class of aircraft only for theater specific roles and give the long distance+large payload (requiring multiple sorties or a/c) to MTA class of aircraft. We saw that in case of use of C-130J in Uttarakhand.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Dec 2013 00:27

the numbers for MTA were much lower. 45 IIRC as against 105 for the an-32

mody · Post by **mody** » 22 Dec 2013 13:04

MTA matches with C-130J-30 not AN-32. The C-27J matches with AN-32 specs quite well.

Hence I have always argued that the whole MTA thing should be scrapped. Its too much money and effort for only 45 planes.

Instead form a joint venture of any private company with HAl like say Tata-HAL and buy out the Allenia C-27J production line and technology. They don't have any pending orders for C-27J and prospects of new orders is bleak.

Build 80-100 C-27J in India for replacing the An-32s and Avro's.
Supplement this with an order for 24 C-130J (not the stretched C-130J-30),in addition to the 6 more C-130J-30 that we are planning to buy.

This will complete the An-32 and Avro replacement. All the planes would also end up having the same engines.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Dec 2013 23:10

mody wrote: Build 80-100 C-27J in India for replacing the An-32s and Avro's...
...This will complete the An-32 and Avro replacement. All the planes would also end up having the same engines.

This ignores India's massive regional transport market over the next 20-30 years. It also ignores the fact that both the An-32 and Avro were originally civilian passenger aircraft. While the military requirements could actually grow to 200 or more if one counts the expanding needs of our air force, navy, army, RR, BSF, CRPF, CG, NSG, RAW etc, this will be dwarfed by our needs in the civil regional transport space which could be 4 or 5 times larger at least. We should ideally choose a single aircraft type that will be flexible enough to meet all these needs and can be produced in the hundreds in dozens of plants throughout India. We need something like the Airbus C295 or the Bae 146/Avro RJ series. The C-27 Spartan is purely a military aircraft with limited civil roles perhaps in the mountainous areas.

In the PSU, private sector thread, there are some photos of Tata's helicopter plant with one sporting a picture of the C295 on a computer monitor. Maybe that's a sign of the way things are going.

MTA is an elaborate hoax perpetrated by the current stake holders to stymie all efforts at privatization and to preserve their monopoly. It will never see the light of day.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Dec 2013 00:10

On the aviation side, it seems to me, that the Indian participation with the Russians is around two major points: to back fill for the IAF (numbers matter here) and actual knowledge transfer for the Indian "Labs". It is the latter that is funding the current set of efforts (MTA and the FGFA) and the former, though extremely critical, is the beneficiary of the latter. Even within the "knowledge transfer", IMHO, it is the testing and certification phase that is of critical value to the Indian Labs. So, while the number do matter, if India gains sufficient knowledge, she can make up for the numbers. Also, when it comes to pretty much any asset, one-size-fits-all in the Indo-Russo environment does not make any sense. India needs an aircraft (or even a tank) that is great for her environment and so does Russia. So, if one seriously sits and thinks of this, this "tie-up" stuff works to some extent, beyond that the two have to naturally part ways.

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 23 Dec 2013 05:50

Just saw the IOC II clearance of the LCA and started going through the project history in detail. The plane is really promising. Clean design with the large delta. Should have superb lift and very good sub sonic, trans sonic and early supersonic performance. Drag will increase in higher supersonic regime, but then again, is that really important. This appears to be intended to be an all round air to air craft, and in that the design appears superb.

One may argue that the plane is not entirely indigenous - the engines for instance. To be honest, who cares. The worldwide market for engines is limited. The major suppliers, given the nature of large worldwide alliances, supply around the world. To design an engine that is at par with a Pratt and Whitney, GE, Rolls Royce or even NPO Saturn is a long term commitment that will require India to be part of equivalent global alliances to generate enough sales to justify the engine design investment. IMHO, I don't think such investment for top end jet engine design for fighters (a relatively small subset, needing a worldwide market to make it worthwhile), is likely to happen. Better to use available engines, with enough spares and focus on the rest of the aircraft. If the price tag of 7000 crores quoted for the Tejas is real, that's chump change in the fighter design market. And that bodes well for the future of the design - hopefully, that won't be another 20 years.

At the same time, I saw the posts on the decommissioning of the 21-Fs. That brought back some old memories and frankly I am surprised that they lasted as long as they did. The Fs were the hardest to handle, and the general belief was that if you were a good rudder and stick man on those, you could fly any other model in practically any circumstance. Thus our training was on them. These were the most unforgiving variant, and I don't know if anyone here recalls nail biting tail slides on the F.

It's been a while since I posted. Had a great deal of fun perusing the posts in between, including some nostalgic pictures.

Cheers
Aharam.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Dec 2013 06:31

^^^

As far as the Kaveri engine goes, GTRE/India has gained an experience in building a complete functional engine. A major area where further R&D is required is on the core compression chambers. These have not met design targets. Probably another 10 to 15 years of R&D is required to get it to desired specifications. With foreign JV that could be reduced to 5 to 7 years.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 23 Dec 2013 07:42

The market for jet engines needn't be from traditional fighters, as an example BEML/TATA can try a turbine-battery combo on the TATRA replacement trucks or even for its heavy equipment, Caterpillar is already moving to 'green engines'

and we are aligned with Japan

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 23 Dec 2013 07:47

Good point srai. The core of a jet engine are the compressor stages, and that does take time and experimentation to achieve the desired thrust to weight in modern fighters. IAF will always compare GTRE and DRDO efforts to the best available and they had decades to perfect their art.

My point though was whether it is worth doing it when supplies are available from the best manufacturers and license building is available with something like the GE414. Please believe me when I say that I am not arguing for or against it - locally available technologies are better since the performance profile is locally modifiable and can grow given the vast scientific potential in India. My question is whether this is best use of resources. HAL is already stretched and wouldn't its resources be better spent on the AMCA's airframe and stealth design rather than on the engine that is available from other sources. We need to focus our resources to be the best at something rather than expend efforts on playing catch up.

Just my 2 paise

Cheers
Aharam

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Dec 2013 08:33

I can understand your point of view if India was trying to start jet engine research now. At this point through the Kaveri engine, GTRE and associated labs have accumulated around 30 years of R&D experience on building a jet engine. This is not something to let go to waste.

aharam · Post by **aharam** » 23 Dec 2013 08:50

srai wrote:I can understand your point of view if India was trying to start jet engine research now. At this point through the Kaveri engine, GTRE and associated labs have accumulated around 30 years of R&D experience on building a jet engine. This is not something to let go to waste.

I agree. However, the difference is the number of years of experience deploying those engines and watching them fail in myriad ways. That said, I am sure that GTRE has leapfrogged many generation of this learning by trial - better to learn from others mistakes

. However, that only gets you so far. Cutting edge is riddled with failures and very expensive. Even when we look at large civilian transport aircraft, there are only two major manufacturers - GE and Rolls Royce. Jet engines is not an easy market and given our penchant for not ordering enough quantity, does it make sense to focus on engineering for leading edge fighters instead of engines for transport aircraft or even drones or UCAVs, where thrust to weight requirements are more forgiving?

I am not saying we should throw away what we learned, just use it where it can be used till we get to where we need to be, instead of betting the farm on reinventing everything. We seem to want to build everything, airframes, engines, flight control, radars from scratch. Focus might help here.

Cheers
Aharam

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Dec 2013 21:55

Video of the 16-tonne heavy drop system (HDS) being air dropped from an IL-76 aircraft.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=510038499093480

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2013 22:04

^^^^^

Very cool.

Next step: make it steerable, with GPS.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 25 Dec 2013 16:56

What are India's plans regarding full fledged Carrier Borne UCAVs , STVOL UCAVs ,Loitering UCAVs/UAVs (I.e ones which run on auxiliary power in loiter and switch to main in attack/scoot mode) - all aimed to be used in offensive roles similar to current crop of manned fighter jets.

Start with some JV with Russia (keeping a slot open for a third entity.... say Brazil). Hot section of basic engine has to be done by Russians (similar to Shakti engine of ALH), remaining parts of the aircraft can be shared based on investment ratio and competency (Basically same as Eurofighter consortium - where the aerospace expertise was aimed to be developed and preserved among member nations - rather than efficiency or cost cutting).
Later on the engine development can be split into two branches - India funding and involving in the design with the hot desert / high mountain / sea salt withstanding characteristics with regular overhaul and fault checking oversight by competent technicians in our airbases . Russians (and even Brazil) going for their low maintenance and use and throw engine replacement style in conscript manned isolated airbases.

In the mean time run a parallel common UCAV engine effort (based on Kaveri expertise) and pit its progress against the engine developed by the consortium - on the same UCAV platforms - end goal is to supplant the original engine.

Vast landmass , vast borders , vast coastlines , long links of maritime trade in need for protection in oceans being dominated by Massa assets is a commonality for the 3 countries .

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Dec 2013 18:41

indranilroy wrote:Video of the 16-tonne heavy drop system (HDS) being air dropped from an IL-76 aircraft.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=510038499093480

Good. Now let's put it to use in parachuting road building equipment in the Himalayas.

Aditya Watts · Post by **Aditya Watts** » 25 Dec 2013 19:01

indranilroy wrote:Video of the 16-tonne heavy drop system (HDS) being air dropped from an IL-76 aircraft.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=510038499093480

Amazing sight. Reminds me of the Russians airdropping a complete tank with its crew inside

can't wait to see that happening on Indian soil.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Dec 2013 19:14

which tank ? AFAIK they haven't gone beyond the same wt category.

para dropping BMP-2's has already happened in India.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Dec 2013 04:36

ToI: India, US ink $1billion deal for six Super Hercules aircraft
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Dec 28, 2013, 03.13 AM IST

NEW DELHI: The ongoing diplomatic kerfuffle over the Devyani Khobragade episode is no hurdle as far defence deals with the US are concerned. India and the US have inked another mega contract, the $1.01 billion one for six additional C-130J "Super Hercules" aircraft, while some others are being finalized.

Defence ministry sources said the "letter of offer and acceptance" for the six new four-engine C-130Js, which will be delivered within three years, was signed on Friday under the US government's "foreign military sales" (FMS) programme.

IAF already has six C-130Js tactical airlift aircraft, ordered for $962 million in 2007, which are based at the Hindon airbase on the outskirts of Delhi. The six new C-130Js, also configured for "special operations" as the first six, will be based at Panagarh in West Bengal.

Panagarh will also house the headquarters of the new mountain strike corps, christened XVII Corps with a total of over 80,000 soldiers, being raised by the Army in a project worth around Rs 90,000 crore. This new corps will plug operational gaps along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC) as well as give "some serious ground offensive capabilities" against China for the first time.

The rugged C-130J, as also the bigger C-17 Globemaster-III strategic airlift aircraft acquired from the US, can even land at a small forward airbase on a semi-prepared runway. Crucial to counter China's massive build-up of border infrastructure, this capability was amply demonstrated when IAF landed a C-130J on the Daulat Beg Oldi airstrip in eastern Ladakh, at an altitude of 16,614-feet just seven-km from the LAC, in August this year.

The US has already bagged deals close to $10 billion over the last decade in the lucrative Indian defence market. The other deals on the anvil are the ones for 22 Apache attack helicopters, 15 Chinook heavy-lift choppers, four P-8I maritime patrol aircraft and 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers, together worth another $4 billion or so.

"The CNC (contract negotiation committee) for the Chinooks has completed its work, while the one for the Apaches is on the verge of finalization. The M-777 howitzers' contract was stuck on the offsets proposal but is now being sorted out," said a MoD source.

That's not all. The US is also in the contention for the over Rs 15,000 crore project to equip the 355 infantry battalions of the Indian Army with third-generation, shoulder-fired anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs).

After the US initially created roadblocks in the transfer of technology (ToT) for its "Javelin" ATGMs, India had turned to the Israeli "Spike" ATGMs for the project, which will involve an initial import of the tank-killing missiles followed by ToT to defence PSU Bharat Dynamics for indigenous manufacture.

But the A K Antony-led Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) last month put on hold a decision on clearing the Israeli case after the US offered a joint project to manufacture the next-generation of ATGMs. "The MoD will consider both the American and Israeli projects now and choose the one which suits India better," said the source.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 28 Dec 2013 07:06

Dated article, but I did not see this posted earlier using search button. Has some very important details

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... or_LCA.htm

India finalizes agreement for GE 414 engine for indigenous Light Combat Aircraft

...

DRDO Director General (and Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister) Dr VK Saraswat told India Strategic in an interview that the agreement with GE was signed recently, and that he expected the aircraft to be a success for both the IAF and Navy.

...

It has taken nearly two years for the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which had selected the engine, to work out details like how and how much of the engine will be produced in India. A production contract is now being worked out between GE Aviation and HAL, which will manufacture them, in this regard.

Honeywell's F 125N engine was also selected recently to upgrade IAF's Jaguar aircraft, and a production arrangement is now being discussed. This engine will empower the aircraft to fly over high mountains, which at present, the Jaguars cannot do.

GE, which is already supplying its LM 2500 gas turbine engines for some newer Indian Navy ships, was given the necessary clearance by the US Government. It will supply an initial lot of 18 engines while the remaining will be progressively assembled/ made in India.

...

Under the GE-ADA contract, GE is to supply the latest version of the 414 engine beginning 2014, with improved Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC), single Crystal blade design, single engine safety features, and other electronic advances. The basic engine design, as it is used now for instance on the US Navy’s F/A 18 E/F Super Hornets, would stay the same but as new innovations are developed and adopted, they would also be passed on to India.

...

Details of the exact costs of ADA/HAL-GE arrangement is not known but an unconfirmed tender bid figure was mentioned at US$ 822 million.

...

DRDO is also in discussions with Boeing to acquire an aircraft testing wind tunnel, talks for which are still going on, according to Dr Saraswat.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Dec 2013 10:00

India, US ink $1billion deal for six Super Hercules aircraft

"The CNC (contract negotiation committee) for the Chinooks has completed its work, while the one for the Apaches is on the verge of finalization. The M-777 howitzers' contract was stuck on the offsets proposal but is now being sorted out," said a MoD source.

That's not all. The US is also in the contention for the over Rs 15,000 crore project to equip the 355 infantry battalions of the Indian Army with third-generation, shoulder-fired anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs).