Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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JTull
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 23 Jan 2014 22:05

Not Military aviation, but relevant given the ALH/Dhruv association.

India joins elite club with heliborne geo-survey capability

Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 24 Jan 2014 00:27

KBU 3301

Image

With KAB-500Kr
Image

KBU 3123 with Kh-35

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Jan 2014 12:52

Karthik, Many media reports mention SHar being upgraded with Derby and Pythons in Mid 2000. Karan M also shows SHAr carrying Python 4 or 5.

Question is cant Asraam or MICA IR be standardised for the Jag, M-2000 and posiible Rafale fleet?

Dont we have some R-73M later gen R-73's in Inventory.

And also unlike the Pakis where thier 500 Amraam, 600 PL-12 , 600 Aim (M orders, there is very little info on our AAM purchases

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 24 Jan 2014 13:38

The CC AAM on IN Harriers, and on that image posted by Karan, is still Matra Magic II, that was deemed fit for threats faced over the remaining airframe life of the Sea Harrier. Only Derby was added to fill lack of BVR capabilities along with Elta 2032.

What is the benefit of standardizing? Following is the benefit of diversity.

Imagine the poor Chinese/Paki trying to program their fighter's RWR/ECM/Chaff stripper/flare bandwidth against so many AAMs, not knowing which one they'll face.

Even the attack helicopters will carry Stingers & Mistrals. Lovely!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srin » 24 Jan 2014 14:09

tsarkar wrote:The CC AAM on IN Harriers, and on that image posted by Karan, is still Matra Magic II, that was deemed fit for threats faced over the remaining airframe life of the Sea Harrier. Only Derby was added to fill lack of BVR capabilities along with Elta 2032.

What is the benefit of standardizing? Following is the benefit of diversity.

Imagine the poor Chinese/Paki trying to program their fighter's RWR/ECM/Chaff stripper/flare bandwidth against so many AAMs, not knowing which one they'll face.

Even the attack helicopters will carry Stingers & Mistrals. Lovely!


That benefit can only be effective if you can mix and match - qualify a missile on multiple platforms. For instance, if Tejas can potentially carry Matra or Mica IR.

Otherwise, logistics (how much to carry as inventory and in what airbase etc) becomes a huge nightmare.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 24 Jan 2014 14:42

Aditya_V wrote:Karthik, Many media reports mention SHar being upgraded with Derby and Pythons in Mid 2000. Karan M also shows SHAr carrying Python 4 or 5.

Question is cant Asraam or MICA IR be standardised for the Jag, M-2000 and posiible Rafale fleet?

Dont we have some R-73M later gen R-73's in Inventory.

And also unlike the Pakis where thier 500 Amraam, 600 PL-12 , 600 Aim (M orders, there is very little info on our AAM purchases


I'm sorry but I've never heard of any reports of the Python IV on the SHar..could someone please post a pic of a SHar with any CCM other than the Magic-II?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Jan 2014 15:20

Karan M wrote:Aditya, I think Sea Harrier also has Python 5.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... %2B039.jpg

Hard to make out via the image alone:
http://www.fanoos.com/ia/israel_weapons ... python.jpg

Having said that, Flight notes its PythonV.

http://www.spsshownews.com/exclusive/?i ... India-2013


Karthik, from Karan M post above, thinking again SRAAM looks more like Magic than Python 4, but Wiki, Sipri all maintain purchase of 100 Python 4 by India for SHAR in 2007.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 24 Jan 2014 15:56

Aditya, SIPRI is not always correct as they depend on trade journals, industry reports and even media reports - (last of which especially) can be misleading. For instance, they maintain India purchased EL/M-2052 for the LCA when we know that the radar in question is either EL/M-2032 or a hybrid.

I would go with Derby alone on LUSH unless we see some more sources validating Python.
Last edited by Karan M on 24 Jan 2014 16:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 24 Jan 2014 16:00

srin wrote:
tsarkar wrote:The CC AAM on IN Harriers, and on that image posted by Karan, is still Matra Magic II, that was deemed fit for threats faced over the remaining airframe life of the Sea Harrier. Only Derby was added to fill lack of BVR capabilities along with Elta 2032.

What is the benefit of standardizing? Following is the benefit of diversity.

Imagine the poor Chinese/Paki trying to program their fighter's RWR/ECM/Chaff stripper/flare bandwidth against so many AAMs, not knowing which one they'll face.

Even the attack helicopters will carry Stingers & Mistrals. Lovely!


That benefit can only be effective if you can mix and match - qualify a missile on multiple platforms. For instance, if Tejas can potentially carry Matra or Mica IR.

Otherwise, logistics (how much to carry as inventory and in what airbase etc) becomes a huge nightmare.


It goes the other way too. By integrating x only on 1 type, in one AFB you can minimize the inventory of ground handling equipment, testers etc required plus simplify training requirements.

OTOH, if two aircraft types are colocated in one base, then commonality of weapons carried can be achieved in easier fashion by sharing the resources.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 24 Jan 2014 16:08

Srin-ji,

IAF has previously operated mixed formations for strike, Eg. Kargil MiG-29 with R27 & R73 escorted Mirage 2000 with Paveway & Magic II. There were couple of occasions when F-16 tangled with MiG-29 locking them for R27. Hypothetically if some F-16 got through, then they would've to face two types of CC AAM R-73 & Magic in the dogfight. Imagine the Pak pilots dilemma then.

@Karan - Military organizations give priority more to effectiveness & thereafter efficiency.

Making life difficult for enemy is more important than minimizing ground handling equipment. And if a MiG-29 needs 2 R-73 and a Mirage 2 Magic, then the airbase will need to maintain & ground handle 4 missiles and MoD will need to buy 4.

US has been trying to corporatize after the cold war by standardizing, with programs like F-35 that results in one size fits none.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 24 Jan 2014 17:00

>>>@Karan - Military organizations give priority more to effectiveness & thereafter efficiency.

In the ideal sense perhaps, but with limited budgets somethings got to give. The move we are seeing towards LCC etc reflects the concerns about how much the overall package costs and in India itself, esp. with the IA, its been common practise to buy loads of gear with limited attention paid to support gear till the problem becomes apparent and emergenyc purchases are made.

>>>And if a MiG-29 needs 2 R-73 and a Mirage 2 Magic, then the airbase will need to maintain & ground handle 4 missiles and MoD will need to buy 4.

The MOD is more likely to send back the file with a notation saying only 2 R73 can be afforded or delay the acquisition so long that a compromise is worked out. The parlous state of our modernisation in several areas shows the MOD/MOF very adept at playing these cynical games. VK Singh even notes that these are done on purpose, so excess unspent funds can be used for sops/dole oriented schemes.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 24 Jan 2014 19:09

Fraud Charges May Scuttle Indian Helo

NEW DELHI — The Indian Ministry of Defence has ordered state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) to accelerate development of its indigenous Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) program because fraud charges may derail the procurement of 197 helos from overseas, said an MoD source.

Status of LUH

HAL officials said they will achieve initial operational clearance of the LUH by the end of 2015 and begin serial production by mid-2017. A contract for 187 light utility helicopters is expected from MoD by the end of the month, a HAL official said, and the official claimed the company’s LUH would be 10 percent cheaper than that of Eurocopter or Kamov.

The single-engine LUH would be powered by a French-made Turbomecca engine. Of those 187 helicopters, 127 would go to the Army and 61 for the Air Force.

“The development of LUH has progressed with the completion of three milestones, including the configuration freeze, design freeze, and transmission and rotor design. And currently, the detail design and analysis milestone and ground test vehicle run milestones are in progress,” said an official of HAL.

The helicopters will be used for multiple missions for both services, including reconnaissance and surveillance; directing artillery fire; transporting small numbers of troops; nuclear, biological and chemical monitoring; casualty evacuation; and airborne forward air control.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby A Sharma » 24 Jan 2014 20:27

HAL Newspaper Jan 2014

Dynamometer Testing of Indigenized Hawk MK132 Aircraft Brakes
First Successful Integration of AIS-MDA-Hurricane Dornier
RWRDC Successfully Completes Sea-Level Trials of LCH
HAL Delivers PTA-Lakshya-1 to BDL for Testing of Akash Missile

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Jan 2014 21:20

anyone has any Chaiwaala information on the Status of Mig-29 upgrade... till date we have information on 3301 and 3123 which are both single seater and 3306 which is a two-seater which have been upgraded in Russia. Are we sending more birds to Russia for upgrade or have our BRDs started doing upgrades on their own?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Jan 2014 21:27

I think our forces have demonstrated their ability and effectiveness in using multiple platforms with weapons sourced from multiple companies / countries, with avionics/electronics/Software from different countries married with Desi developments successfully. Standardization is slowly happening, but it is happening in our own way. as multiple posters have pointed out... there are benefits to these mix-and-match weaponry usage...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sagar G » 26 Jan 2014 15:09

100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability

India’s biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.

In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). A top defence ministry official said the price of a fighter jet made by Dassault could now cost $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore).

The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore),” said an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee.


The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. “As the negotiations continue, the cost is spiralling out of hand. It is a major worry,” he said.

An IAF official said that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

Eighteen of the 126 planes will be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the other 108 under a licence, at an upcoming facility in Bangalore.

The IAF, which is fighting its depleting combat strength, was banking on Rafale as this was going to be the force’s leading fighter plane for the next four decades. “With chances of the MMRCA deal getting inked appearing dim, there seems to be no solution to the immediate problem of shrinking squadron numbers as existing aircraft are forced into retirement,” said another IAF official.

The air force is seeking to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter and MMRCA fits between India’s high-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, it only has 30 squadrons operational as old aircraft have been retired.


If Mig-21 can don the role of frontline fighters for so many years then Tejas is more than enough capable to bear that burden. It's time to scrap such insanely costly gears and IAF to come up with plan B.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 26 Jan 2014 16:03

The last interview with Official from Dassult about two month back quoted price of Dassault deal at $22 Billion , that is probably the right figure as it came from Dassault Chief.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 26 Jan 2014 16:20

Austin wrote:The last interview with Official from Dassult about two month back quoted price of Dassault deal at $22 Billion , that is probably the right figure as it came from Dassault Chief.


Do you have a link or some other reference? I can't seem to find any quote from the Dassault Chairman (CEO?) supporting that figure.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby darshhan » 26 Jan 2014 19:56

Sagar G wrote:100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability

India’s biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.

In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). A top defence ministry official said the price of a fighter jet made by Dassault could now cost $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore).

The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore),” said an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee.


The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. “As the negotiations continue, the cost is spiralling out of hand. It is a major worry,” he said.

An IAF official said that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

Eighteen of the 126 planes will be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the other 108 under a licence, at an upcoming facility in Bangalore.

The IAF, which is fighting its depleting combat strength, was banking on Rafale as this was going to be the force’s leading fighter plane for the next four decades. “With chances of the MMRCA deal getting inked appearing dim, there seems to be no solution to the immediate problem of shrinking squadron numbers as existing aircraft are forced into retirement,” said another IAF official.

The air force is seeking to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter and MMRCA fits between India’s high-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, it only has 30 squadrons operational as old aircraft have been retired.


If Mig-21 can don the role of frontline fighters for so many years then Tejas is more than enough capable to bear that burden. It's time to scrap such insanely costly gears and IAF to come up with plan B.


+1. This rafale deal is nothing but daylight robbery.1.75 lac cr is not a joke. Should be scrapped as soon as possible. The officials(both military as well as civilian) backing this deal can fall into only two categories.

1. They are seriously deluded
2. They are indulging in treason to fill their own pockets with commission money.

Such officials should be identified and ostracized.

Gold plated equipment never won a war anyways. Wars are won by equipment that can be mass produced while being good enough. Rafale(or any other western A/C) is neither.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_23694 » 26 Jan 2014 23:19

all these rumours/meeting minutes/price tag discussions are confusing me. However from a neutral point
of view and assuming all these are true then we have the following situation :
- we don't buy Rafale because of price tag.
- FGFA does not meet IAF standards and to meet the standards say Russia asks more time and money
- AMCA project does not seem to have started yet.
- Tejas MK.2 FOC is say around the end of the decade (probably optimistic).

So based on the above by 2020 IAF has
270 Su 30 MKI + 40 Tejas + 50 Mirage (not all upgraded) and Migs and Jags.

So my question , does the above meets the IAF and more importantly the countries need for
security. What are the credible options available to meet the IAF requirements by the end of this decade
(lets skip increasing Su 30 MKI numbers for now )

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 27 Jan 2014 00:41

dhiraj wrote:So based on the above by 2020 IAF has
270 Su 30 MKI + 40 Tejas + 50 Mirage (not all upgraded) and Migs and Jags.

The Tejas Mk2 is scheduled to go into production 2017-18 (with Mk1 line switching to it) . So you can add another 8+16x2 = 40 Tejas Mk2 to that total.

So my question , does the above meets the IAF and more importantly the countries need for
security. What are the credible options available to meet the IAF requirements by the end of this decade
(lets skip increasing Su 30 MKI numbers for now )

1. Step up Tejas production rate.
2. Cancel the FGFA. Wait till the production variant PAK FA becomes available for trials.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 27 Jan 2014 02:11

Shrinivasan wrote:anyone has any Chaiwaala information on the Status of Mig-29 upgrade... till date we have information on 3301 and 3123 which are both single seater and 3306 which is a two-seater which have been upgraded in Russia. Are we sending more birds to Russia for upgrade or have our BRDs started doing upgrades on their own?


The upgrades have been delivered to India and rest will be done in India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 27 Jan 2014 02:17

$120Mn per Rafale is insane. If our economy was going great guns, I could understand this...but now?
Buy more LCA please and keep developing it further. And pick up excess Mirage 2000s and upgrade them for the interim, since they are at least highly reliable.
Use long range stand off weapons & force multipliers for the rest. Breaking the bank on the platform does not leave much for support weaponry.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Jan 2014 04:41

Ef2k might be preparing a juicy deal for MoD, but now its too late.

Just like chidumbrum had cancelled scorpene deal made by NDA & renegotiated with french, the next govt. will cancel UPA's MMRCA and decide something else.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 27 Jan 2014 09:15

When will Indians believe in themselves? LCA should be the MMRCA. Otherwise, shut down HAL and the pretense of manufacturing when all they're doing is reading Russian instructions to assemble aircraft with fancy, expensive screwdrivers.

I am amazed to hear everyone talk of 22 billion so lightly. Amazing especially with the rupee sliding. The Qatari Mirages were on offer for $700 million but they weren't fancy enough. Everyone seems to be afflicted with brochuritis and 'mine is bigger than yours' syndromes.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 27 Jan 2014 09:24

If the aim is to protect Indian airspace, put up sensors all around India, make the data available through secure data link to point defense fighters like LCA etc and to SAMs like Akash so that they may neutralize the threats. Use the MKIs and jags to strike Chicom.

Get with it or stop paying lip service to the mantra of self reliance.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 27 Jan 2014 09:30

Fraud Charges May Scuttle Indian Helo
The Indian Ministry of Defence has ordered state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) to accelerate development of its indigenous Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) program because fraud charges may derail the procurement of 197 helos from overseas, said an MoD source.

While no decision has yet been taken on canceling the 2009 tender, in which Eurocopter (Now Airbus Helicopters) and Kamov of Russia are competing, the source said, India’s anti-fraud agency, the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI), formally leveled charges against a serving Indian Army officer for alleged involvement in manipulating the trial report of the LUH procurement. Charges were made last week.

The officer’s alleged involvement came to light last year when an investigating team traveled to Italy to probe alleged corrupt practices by AgustaWestland to win a contract to provide 12 AW101 helicopters. The team discovered a document in which the Indian Army officer had allegedly offered AgustaWestland to turn the LUH contract in their favor. However, AgustaWestland was eliminated in the first round of procurement in the technical evaluation stage.

Eurocopter and Kamov executives were unavailable for comments.

Politics is also playing a role because general elections are slotted for May and the ruling United Progressive Alliance government will not want to be viewed as ignoring corruption, said Nitin Mehta, new Delhi based defense analyst.

The $500 million LUH tender was issued in 2009 to Eurocopter for its Fennec AS550 C3 helicopter, to AgustaWestland for the AW119 and Kamov for the 226T helicopter.

The MoD source said that if the tender is canceled, the order for 197 helicopters will be given to HAL, which is developing an LUH for the Indian Army and Air Force.

HAL’s LUH, however, is still in initial development and the Army urgently needs the aircraft to ferry troops and material to battlefields at high altitudes in northern India bordering Pakistan and China. Currently, the Army and Air Force are using Cheetah and Chetak helicopters license-produced by HAL for logistic support at altitudes of more than 20,000 feet, where the military needs to operate at the Siachen glacier and the upper reaches of the Himalayas bordering China.

The Cheetahs and Chetaks have outlived their life expectancy and the Army and Air Force have been demanding replacements for more than a decade.

An Army official said cancellation of the LUH tender would be a severe blow to Army logistics operations, but added that HAL’s record in delivering equipment is unsatisfactory and should not be counted on as the sole supplier of LUH resources. The LUH should be procured as quickly as possible on a government-to-government basis if the tender is canceled, the official said.

Status of LUH

HAL officials said they will achieve initial operational clearance of the LUH by the end of 2015 and begin serial production by mid-2017. A contract for 187 light utility helicopters is expected from MoD by the end of the month, a HAL official said, and the official claimed the company’s LUH would be 10 percent cheaper than that of Eurocopter or Kamov.

The single-engine LUH would be powered by a French-made Turbomecca engine. Of those 187 helicopters, 127 would go to the Army and 61 for the Air Force.

“The development of LUH has progressed with the completion of three milestones, including the configuration freeze, design freeze, and transmission and rotor design. And currently, the detail design and analysis milestone and ground test vehicle run milestones are in progress,” said an official of HAL.

The helicopters will be used for multiple missions for both services, including reconnaissance and surveillance; directing artillery fire; transporting small numbers of troops; nuclear, biological and chemical monitoring; casualty evacuation; and airborne forward air control.

LUH Tender

If canceled, this would mark the second time the program was halted. In 2007, Eurocopter, with its Fennec helicopter, was on the verge of being declared the winner when US-based Bell Helicopters complained to the MoD about a lack of transparency in the procurement process and that tender was canceled in 2008.

In the recent competition, an Army source said there have been issues with the trials of the two competitors. The Airbus Helicopters candidate has had some problems operating at high altitudes, and the Army wants it to be able to accommodate a second stretcher, which will require structural modifications, added the source.

Kamov has offered a choice of two Western engines, but the engines will require re-certification.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tushar_m » 27 Jan 2014 09:37

see there is something fishy going on here

in span of few days two reports
1.FGFA not so good
2.Rafale very costly

one of the reasons that we can think of is that , LCA is now on fast track & it is now acknowledged by both the user & the developer to be a very good platform for IAF & IN.

But the problem is that we have committed to both the above programs & we cant get our funds out of them without any
-ve things on them.That is the reason for these reports coming out about these programs.(both are good programs although)

2nd is that LCA mk2 has left drawing boards by now & the user now see that LCA mk2 can compete with rafale or any other fighters , making more sense to go for LCA mk2 with 250-300 cr(maybe less) rather that 750 cr rafale.

so let us C .........

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sid » 27 Jan 2014 10:31

^^ or maybe there is a typhoon with a lightening on the horizon!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 27 Jan 2014 14:38

Austin wrote:Fraud Charges May Scuttle Indian Helo
The Indian Ministry of Defence has ordered state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) to accelerate development of its indigenous Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) program because fraud charges may derail the procurement of 197 helos from overseas, said an MoD source..


a God sent opportunity for HAL to get the LUH into service in massive numbers..this was a low hanging fruit IMO, since the Dhruv and LCH had set the platform for a successful LUH variant. There was no reason apart from time to order the Fennec or the Ka-226T..I hope this means that this saga comes to an end and HAL is given additional funds to fast-track the development and testing of the LUH.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vipul » 29 Jan 2014 06:48

India close to $1.65-bin military aircraft deal with Japan.

India is close to buying Japanese-made military aircraft in a $1.65-billion deal, becoming the first country since World War II to buy a military aircraft from Japan, helping the country wriggle out of a self-imposed ban of the sale of weapons.

Prime minister Shinzo Abe is also looking at weapons exports to end Japan's export drought by giving his country's defence contractors an entry into foreign markets.

For India, the world's biggest arms importer, which is mainly dependant on Russia, the US and Israel to a certain extent for arms supplies, the deal with Japan lays the ground for a broader cooperation in arms production and technology.The two countries are reported to have reached a broad agreement on a deal for the amphibious US-2i search and rescue aircraft manufactured by ShinMaywa Industries.

New Delhi is likely to buy at least 15 of the planes, which are priced at about $110 million each, which would take the deal to as much as $1.65 billion, official sources said.The final details of the deal are yet to be worked out as negotiations will resume in March on joint production of the plane in India and other issues like technology transfer.

"It's a strategic imperative for both sides, and it has been cleared at the highest levels of the two governments," report quoting military sources said.
However, Japan is currently offering a stripped-down civilian version of the US-2i search and rescue plane, to get around Japan's self-imposed ban on arms exports. The version will not have the 'friend or foe' identification system, sources said.

The plane has a range of over 4,500 km (2,800 miles), which will give it reach across Southeast Asia from its proposed Andaman and Nicobar base.The two governments have set up a joint working group that will meet in March to consider plans to either set up a plant in India to assemble it under licence by an Indian state manufacturer.The plan is to deliver two aircraft and then assemble the rest of the planes with an Indian partner, military source say.

The deal lays the ground for a broader Japanese thrust into India, the world's biggest arms market dominated for long by Russia but also now buying hardware from Israel and the United States."There is a whole amount of defence-related cooperation, between India and Japan," said Gautam Bambawalle, an Indian foreign ministry official responsible for North Asia."We want Japanese technology, we want Japanese capital investment into India."

Indian Navy is also interested in Japanese patrol vessels and electronic warfare equipment as Tokyo moves further along in easing its ban on military exports, the Indian officials said.Abe discussed the aircraft deal with Singh during a trip to New Delhi last weekend as ties rapidly warm between the two nations at a time when both are embroiled in territorial disputes with China.

"Our Joint Working Group on US-2 amphibian aircraft has met to explore the modalities of cooperation on its use and co-production in India. More broadly, we are working towards increasing our cooperation in the area of advanced technologies," Singh said.

The Japanese government under Abe is seeking a more assertive military and national security posture for Japan, breaking out of its post-war constitution that renounces war and maintenance of armed forces.

The Abe government has vowed to review Japan's ban on weapons exports, a move that could reinvigorate struggling defence contractors like Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd and Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd.Mitsubishi is in advanced talks to supply parts for the F-35 stealth fighter to Britain's BAE Systems.

India, which bought defence hardware worth $12.7 billion during 2007-2011, has been trying to build up a domestic manufacturing base for military equipment through indigenous production and technology transfer or through joint production as a condition for placing orders.

vic
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 29 Jan 2014 08:05

US-2 is another Useless import touted as best thing after sliced bread. For that sort of money we can easily develop 100 airstrips all over our coastline and provide local jobs.

Anyway, if Japan wants to tie up with India then they can start asking Japanese scientists and engineers to help DRDO programs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 29 Jan 2014 08:33

Thanks China!!!! What a nice assist.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby KrishnaK » 29 Jan 2014 09:38

vic wrote:Anyway, if Japan wants to tie up with India then they can start asking Japanese scientists and engineers to help DRDO programs.
They're actually thinking of letting DRDO buy up their top technology companies.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 29 Jan 2014 11:50

was this posted? it isn't over yet!!

January 20, 2014: In a dramatic new episode to the 'trainer wars' as they should probably be known now given the weekly intrigue surrounding the IAF-HAL battle over basic trainer aircraft, the Indian Air Force has pitched a proposal to the MoD offering that is ready to license-build Pilatus PC-7 Mk.II propeller trainers at the No.5 Base Repair Depot in Sulur near Coimbatore, under the Southern Air Command. The depot, functional since 1959, has specialised in maintaining the HJT-16 Kiran intermediate trainer and HS-748 Avro medium transport of the IAF for decades, but has built up fair infrastructure to house a basic trainer production line now, IAF sources say.

Swiss firm Pilatus, which has already supplied most of the 75 trainers contracted by the IAF in 2012, has given the IAF a note of endorsement on this account, which the IAF has duly forwarded along with its pitch proposal to the MoD in order to strengthen its case. With the new Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, like his predecessor, also not keen on HAL's trainer as a result of timelines, inventory and cost economies, the DPSU, as reported earlier by SP's is still powering through with the HTT-40, with sanction from the MoD. It will be interesting to see whether the MoD clears the IAF proposal, given it is predicated on a precarious situation: a major shortfall of nearly 500 pilots, and not enough cadets in each course. Sources say a Pilatus production line can be set up at 5BRD in Sulur in about 8-10 months, with production commencing by June next year. All of this is to meet a requirement of 106 additional basic trainers to take the total fleet strength up to 181 trainers.


IAF proposes to build Pilatus trainers by itself

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sid » 29 Jan 2014 12:30

vic wrote:US-2 is another Useless import touted as best thing after sliced bread. For that sort of money we can easily develop 100 airstrips all over our coastline and provide local jobs.

Anyway, if Japan wants to tie up with India then they can start asking Japanese scientists and engineers to help DRDO programs.


Put that kind of money on LCA and maybe we can make it float :D

Totally useless import for the sake of buying favor from enemy of my enemy.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Brando » 29 Jan 2014 13:34

^^ How can the LCA compare to the US-2 ? One is a single engined fighter jet and the other an amphibious a multi-engined SAR/cargo aircraft.

If it were just an attempt to "curry favor" then they wouldn't buy "15" aircraft - more than the JSDF themselves use. There are far more "cheaper" and more glamorous ways to waste money on Japanese "imports".

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 29 Jan 2014 13:46

its a start. one has to start from non-controversial things rather a direct leap to Soryu and Akizuki designs. its probably a lot cheaper to give the US-2 fleet to the CG and extend their legs way further than the basic DO228 allows them.
A&N and Laccadive-maldives is a vast territory and just ships cannot observe and police it all.

we need to know how well the OEM can support products in india, how committed they are in vendor support and political backing and whether the pro-India posture is a false dawn or a permanent thing before signing up for anything more mission critical like subs.

next step should be develop versions of the Rustom2 MALE in parallel for CG and IN. the CG version would have cheaper kit while IN would be the gold std of what we can make/get. install video and data downlinks from these to all our ships.

most of the time, surveillance is the real matchwinner , not firepower....imagine if the smallest CG ship armed with a couple MMG had been able to intercept the 26/11 attack boat...they would have cut them down before landfall in 2 mins.

a mouse farts in male, we need to know. OTH radars to cover the entire IOR is also a must.

Sid
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sid » 29 Jan 2014 16:33

Brando wrote:^^ How can the LCA compare to the US-2 ? One is a single engined fighter jet and the other an amphibious a multi-engined SAR/cargo aircraft.


seriously? you do understand it was a sarcastic remark, no!



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