Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby RKumar » 09 Jul 2014 18:56

Kill Apaches - I personally do not see requirement of it in near future.

Buy Chinooks - it can be used to created infrastructure in remote areas, which are difficult to access. It can move heavy equipment during peace/war time.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby abhik » 09 Jul 2014 20:52

The Chinooks(or Mi-26s) is a TINA item, we have to eventually buy it. In case it wasn't posted earlier Livefist reported that India's Apache & Chinook Buys To Be Cleared This Month. Lets see.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 09 Jul 2014 21:10

I agree with abhik. The 'Heavy' heli-lift capability is needed. We use it at critical places. The difficulty in keeping Mi 26 operationally available long enough is well known. There really are very few alternatives.

I am not aware of details on Chinook's performance so whether it will be better in availability than the Mi-26, I do not know. But with the current age of the Mi-26 fleet either new Mi-26's or the Chinooks will be needed.

The Apache itself is in a different class than LCH and are a replacement for the Mi 25's /35's. One good question was the need of IAF to buy the Apache's since the Army is taking over these assets and their designated use.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby brar_w » 09 Jul 2014 21:24

deejay wrote:I agree with abhik. The 'Heavy' heli-lift capability is needed. We use it at critical places. The difficulty in keeping Mi 26 operationally available long enough is well known. There really are very few alternatives.

I am not aware of details on Chinook's performance so whether it will be better in availability than the Mi-26, I do not know. But with the current age of the Mi-26 fleet either new Mi-26's or the Chinooks will be needed.

The Apache itself is in a different class than LCH and are a replacement for the Mi 25's /35's. One good question was the need of IAF to buy the Apache's since the Army is taking over these assets and their designated use.


From the top of my head both the Apache and the CH-47F had mission availability rates in excess of 80% in Afghanistan so peacetime availability rates should be around 80% or a couple of percentage points lower. The Brits actually were able to fly 20% more hours on the fleet then they had calculated given their own estimates on down times.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Picklu » 09 Jul 2014 21:34

IF IJT goes back to clean slate, ARDC needs a thorough look see. Enough is enough :evil:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 10 Jul 2014 15:40

Interview with Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

IAF plans early induction of Rafale

New Delhi. India’s negotiations with French Dassault for the acquisition of 126 Rafale Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) “are progressing well” and the contract is likely “sooner than later in the current financial year 2014-15.”

This was stated by Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha in a comprehensive interview with India Strategic on the eve of the Farnborough Air Show, the first in fact after he assumed office about six months ago.

He was candid to acknowledge that IAF will have to retire several legacy squadrons of MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircraft in the coming years but he was also confident that the planned induction of the Rafale, and HAL’s indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) will help “arrest the drawdown in the strength of the fighter squadrons.”

The number of Su-30MKI aircraft is also steadily increasing. IAF has planned induction of 272 Su-30MKIs, periodically upgraded, and nearly 60 per cent of them have already been inducted.

IAF’s proposed strength for combat aircraft is 42, to be reached by 2022. Because of the phasing out of the old aircraft like MiG-21s and MiG-23s, the current squadron strength is reported to be 34.

Air Chief Marshal Raha expressed confidence and observed: “Early induction of LCA and MMRCA has been planned for arresting the drawdown in the strength of fighter squadrons…. IAF is likely to have its sanctioned strength of combat squadrons operational sooner than later.”

IAF’s MMRCA Rafale Programme

On the urgent requirement of combat aircraft though, he pointed out: “The MMRCA CNC (Commercial Negotiations Committee) is presently negotiating various aspects of the contract with the L1 vendor, Dassault Aviation of France. The negotiations are progressing well. The contract for 126 MMRCA is expected to be signed sooner than later in the current FY 2014-15.”

He pointed out that as the Rafale induction was in accordance with the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006, “Transfer of Technology (ToT) is not eligible towards discharge of ‘Offset’ obligations” but that the latest “revised offset guidelines permit greater flexibility for discharge of offset obligations.”

(Indian armed forces are hungry for ToT, and as the DPP has evolved, so is the clarity on how to get the best while buying expensive, modern defence systems. The emphasis on ToT was also stated as a priority by India’s top scientist, Dr Avinash Chander, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and Director General of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in a separate interview with India Strategic. He also mentioned that India’s focus now was on induction of the latest hi-tech systems to support the armed forces and that the time has come for a “performance audit” to compare what is made in India with equivalent imported systems).

As for the Rafale induction, there is progress towards early finalisation in discussions. According to Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources, a few subcommittees are working to fine tune details towards the contract, and this should not take very long.

The big issue was the agreement between the vendor, Dassault International, and HAL which is the prime integrator for the project. HAL has negotiated more than 70 per cent work share for itself although Dassault was initially hesitant to agree as there were doubts about the state-run company’s credentials in meeting production timelines. Delays can result in penalties for the French vendor. Nonetheless, this issue is resolved.

Transport Aircraft

The Air Chief also disclosed that IAF’s newly acquired strategic transporter, Boeing C-17 Globemaster III, had been deployed to support UN missions in Congo as also to assist the Government of Tajikistan.

IAF had contracted for 10 C-17s. Five of these are operational from their base near New Delhi while the remaining five are due to be delivered within 2014 as per the contract.

He was also upbeat on the paradigm shift that C-17 and the C-130J Super Hercules had brought about “in our airlift capabilities.” IAF had inducted the first C-130J aircraft some three and half years ago and another six of these Special Operations aircraft are due to be added in 2016, he disclosed.

Air Chief Raha said: “The induction of C-17 and C-130J has brought about a paradigm shift in our airlift capabilities. The exceptional capabilities of the C-17 aircraft have enhanced our strategic footprint which impacts the concept of Strategic Airlift Operations. Though the process of operationalising the fleet is still in progress, it has already displayed potential by undertaking operations in support of the UN Mission in Congo and the Government of Tajikistan.

“The C-130 has flown with us for three and a half years and has emerged as a significant enabler for Special Operations, besides being extensively deployed for varied tasks. More importantly, these platforms have significantly enhanced our responsiveness in carrying out HADR (Humanitarian and Disaster Relief) operations.”

Force Multipliers

Air Chief Marshal Raha said the IAF is paying attention to all its assets, combat aircraft, transport aircraft, secure connectivity, reach of the assets, weapons and sensors, training and force multiplier aircraft like AWACS and Refuellers “to remain a contemporary aerospace power which possesses credible capability with a strategic footprint.”

Elaborating on some points, he said: To ensure the requisite degree of air surveillance and achieve air dominance in future operations, IAF needs to have adequate on-station capability in its ‘Area of Interest’. Towards this, IAF has already taken the first step of operationalising three AWACS, procured from abroad. Indigenous development of AEW&C by DRDO is in the developmental flight trials stage. These would be inducted in IAF after the trials are successfully accomplished.

“To leverage the experience and expertise gained in the Design & Development of AEW&C, a project for indigenous development of AWACS has been initiated. The project is envisaged in two phases. Phase I involves development of a prototype, followed by a mid-term review by a National Review Committee. Based on the success of Phase I of the indigenous AWACS, Phase II for production of additional AWACS will be initiated.”

Incidentally, the AWACS development project, led by DRDO, is quite ambitious and envisages latest technology radars on big aircraft like the Airbus A330 or Boeing 767. Notably, India has achieved significant milestones in radar technology.

Also, IAF has already decided to buy six A330 midair refuellers from Airbus Defence & Space, negotiations for which are in progress.

Sensor, Shooter Loop


Air Chief Marshal Raha said that the application of aerospace power would be decisive in winning the short and intense wars of the future, wherein the response would need to be prompt and precise.

Towards this, IAF envisages itself to be a multi-spectrum strategic force, a contemporary aerospace power which possesses credible capability with a strategic footprint.

The induction of state-of-the-art combat platforms like Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) – for which DRDO is working a co-development programme with Russia – and MMRCA as well as the ongoing upgradation of existing combat platforms would enable us to keep pace with the newer technologies which include long range multi-function radars, superior man-machine interface, high performance mission computers with data link, state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems, smart weapons and stealth capability.

The Air Chief pointed out: “IAF endeavours to seamlessly integrate maximum number of sensors, platforms and systems in the Integrated Air Command Control System (IACCS) network. Coupled with space assets and RPAs, this network would afford us ‘High Situational Awareness’ in a ‘Network Centric’ environment. Enabled by ICT (Information & Communication Technologies), the network would reduce the sensor to shooter time considerably.

IAF Transformation

About the ongoing Transformation of IAF, Air Chief Marshal Raha said that in accordance with IAF’s Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan (LTIPP), there is clear emphasis on force accretion in entire spectrum of IAF’s capability building including fighters, transport aircraft, helicopters, combat support assets and modernisation of air defence network.

“Net centricity, cyber security, and ensuring requisite communication bandwidth for seamless operations are also part of this capability. Space is increasingly being integrated into our day-to-day operations to give us the winning edge in any contingency. In order to absorb these new capabilities more efficiently, a time-bound and comprehensive infrastructure upgrade plan has been instituted.”

The plan envisages “acquisitions, upgrades and efficient management of legacy systems.”

Jaguar Upgrade

On the Jaguar upgrade, which involves putting the much more powerful Honeywell F-125 IN engine in these aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Raha said that he expected the contract negotiations to begin soon, and sign the documents within the current fiscal (ending March 2015).

IAF has more than 100 of these Anglo-French jets, acquired from the late 1970s as Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (DPSA). Their upgradation with new power plants in fact will give them capability to fly over the mountains also, which is not there at present.

Then, simultaneously, the aircraft would be equipped with newer systems and sensors.

Said the Air Chief: “Yes, a case for re-engining of the Jaguar aircraft with F-125 IN engine is being actively pursued. Presently, the case is at Technical Oversight Stage, after which the contract negotiations will commence and we are hopeful of signing the contract in this financial year. Re-engining and concurrent upgrade of the Jaguar fleet will ensure its operational relevance till 2035.”

Training Aircraft

Air Chief Marshal Raha said that the induction of Pilatus PC-7 Mk II as a basic flying trainer has “met the long aspired requirements of the IAF.”

Its performance and average serviceability “has been exceptional and the OEM is providing proactive product support for maintaining enhanced serviceability of the fleet.” The fleet has flown more than 15,000 hours, executed over 25,000 landings” within a little more than one year.

Notably, the Air Chief visited the Air Force Academy in Hyderabad recently and also flew the aircraft himself. The young pilots there were happy at the induction of this aircraft from Switzerland.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 10 Jul 2014 17:17

Picklu wrote:IF IJT goes back to clean slate, ARDC needs a thorough look see. Enough is enough :evil:


Not possible to restart from scratch. This is not a backroom science project that can be thrown out and restarted. The IAF needs the plane now and it could accept the plane (which is pretty far along in its flight testing) with some relaxation to its stringent requirements. Besides what is there to guarantee that issues won't crop up in a new design later on in testing as it has with the current design? If there are major changes to design then it will occur on Mk.2 or follow on enhancements.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby saps » 10 Jul 2014 18:52

srai wrote:The IAF needs the plane now and it could accept the plane (which is pretty far along in its flight testing) with some relaxation to its stringent requirements.


And have fighter pilots or even pilots passing out flying academies with experience of only take off and landings.

Cause IJT cannot stall safely...forget about spinning and recovering.

But yes HAL would continue to develop it till cows have gone home with external assistance in design and development definitely :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2014 01:31

saps wrote:Cause IJT cannot stall safely...forget about spinning and recovering.

How do you know this? Even when spin tests where aborted, we don't know if it could have recovered or not. The test was simply aborted when entry into spin tests were not deemed to be safe. Anyways, modifications were made and tests are currently underway.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby saps » 11 Jul 2014 06:17

indranilroy wrote:How do you know this? Even when spin tests where aborted, we don't know if it could have recovered or not. The test was simply aborted when entry into spin tests were not deemed to be safe.


Sorry not understood...spin test aborted. My memory recollects that two fine gentlemen had to eject out of due to aircraft NOT ABLE to recover.."IJT".... when undergoing spin tests.

I was informed about this by someone who's got access to one's involved with this never ending SAGA of testing...consulting & then testing..delay n foreign advisors n consulting again.

Ready to hear better things and proven wrong on this part. :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2014 08:02

Oh! I did not know this internal khabar. But I did analyze that it might have been the case from the debry field.

indranilroy wrote:

Image
The debry field does look very concentrated. I feel the prototype was falling on its belly. Might have indeed entered a flat spin.


Hmmm! Will wait and watch. :|

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jul 2014 08:52

Why is the article silent on status of pilots?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 11 Jul 2014 09:03

Aditya_V wrote:Why is the article silent on status of pilots?


Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) said that both the test pilots ejected to safety.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2014 09:07

saps wrote:
indranilroy wrote:How do you know this? Even when spin tests where aborted, we don't know if it could have recovered or not. The test was simply aborted when entry into spin tests were not deemed to be safe.


Sorry not understood...spin test aborted. My memory recollects that two fine gentlemen had to eject out of due to aircraft NOT ABLE to recover.."IJT".... when undergoing spin tests.

I was informed about this by someone who's got access to one's involved with this never ending SAGA of testing...consulting & then testing..delay n foreign advisors n consulting again.

Ready to hear better things and proven wrong on this part. :D


I am not sure - but did I hear someone say that the engine flamed out during some maneuver?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rrao » 11 Jul 2014 14:27

Last edited by rrao on 11 Jul 2014 17:31, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2014 15:33


Unfortunately the reports are very garbled. However the reporter mentioned "fire" in the aircraft. The reports are exceedingly vague. For some reason the reporter mentions fire, helicopter and bail out in the same breath twice - it sounds as though he thinks the pilots came down by helo. He mentions the rescue helicopters separately later

It is interesting how little our people know. Almost no one in the west will fail to know about ejection. But everyone in this report talks about "Pilots jumping out". Nothing odd - after all the level of technical literacy in India is fairly low and the aircraft density too is low.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rrao » 11 Jul 2014 17:42

shiv saar, i too heard the reason for crash due to engine flame out ...but i also heard other one too that the pilots attempted an unauthorized spin recovery test which lead to the crash!!! But what is alarming is tender from an experienced design house for redesign of the entire a/c airframe/structure,weight reduction etc...That means they have tried all tricks , but spin recovery is eluding them... IJT apparently seems to be derived from IA-63 pampa of Argentina and polish IRYDA...with all the LCA composite experience if they convert IJT wings,some parts of fuselage,tail to composites... to reduce weight...but will that solve the aerodynamics issues? so they may have to redesign the wings and locate them on top of the fuselage and make the air inlets large similar to IA-63 PAMPA. wiki says pampa went to USA and got modified extensively with the help of Americans!!! This is as good as love-all!!!

SAPS!! beg,borrow,steal anything is fair in defence R&D!!! No need to make fun of the designers.!!!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2014 19:02

rrao wrote: But what is alarming is tender from an experienced design house for redesign of the entire a/c airframe/structure,weight reduction etc...That means they have tried all tricks , but spin recovery is eluding them...

Does not mean that at all.
rrao wrote:
IJT apparently seems to be derived from IA-63 pampa of Argentina and polish IRYDA...with all the LCA composite experience if they convert IJT wings,some parts of fuselage,tail to composites... to reduce weight...but will that solve the aerodynamics issues? so they may have to redesign the wings and locate them on top of the fuselage and make the air inlets large similar to IA-63 PAMPA. wiki says pampa went to USA and got modified extensively with the help of Americans!!! This is as good as love-all!!!

SAPS!! beg,borrow,steal anything is fair in defence R&D!!! No need to make fun of the designers.!!!!

I have never heard this before either.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shreeman » 11 Jul 2014 20:35

I am tugging at my leash again, so only a short post:

1. Crashes will happen. Going back a few pages produces some introspection on this prior to the crash.
2. Has LCA tried Spins?
3. This IS rocket science. The IJT and LCA are PSLV and GSLV respectiiively.
4. Weight reduction is NOT a start from scratch redesign.
5. Overweight first few flight units are not the end of the world. IJT does not have to teach spins right now. The pilatus prop trainer will do just as wll.
6, Take your pick -- 3 crashes of the IJT or similar number of the LCA.
7. You need the HTT, the IJT, the LCA, annd the AMCA. Or forget about growing more competent air force thasn piddly little countries like taiwan.
8. Stop using these projects as leverage for import contracts.
9. A "khadi gramudyog" mentality will have to go, and private industry is not the answer. If you really want it, properly fund and staff these. Go with more conservative approaches, and more sympathetic acceptance of first generation indigenous products.
10. Modi sarakar ....?

Transparancy is essential. Shroud in secrecy, watch these mishaps and endless delays. Please to ignore if irritating.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rrao » 11 Jul 2014 20:45

http://www.hal-india.com/tender/ardc/NIT_EOI-%20HJT-36_16-8-14.pdf

indranil....hope you have read the tender contents from the above link...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 11 Jul 2014 20:58

Shreeman ji, do not confuse spin on IJT with 'import'. The spin is not taught as a maneuver for combat or take off and landing. Spin teaching is a necessity of the syllabus in Stage II. LCA will not need to teach spin. IJT will.

By the time pilots fly LCA, expect them to have 200 -250 hrs plus flying experience including fast trainers like HAWK AJT.

When the trainee pilots will take the IJT for spin they will have ~100 hrs including basic stage on the Pilatus. Basic stage is 'slow moving 'piston' engine. Stage II is the first Jet aircraft trainees will fly. The HJT-16 Kiran Mk I is a beautiful aircraft and multiple generations of IAF pilots will swear by it. Even in Kiran we lost trainees to non recovery from Spin. Others did not become pilots because they froze on controls prior to spin. Not every body is made for combat flying and one does not need to bring down aircraft and humans to forcefully buy a jet which is not ready.

The aircraft under testing are being flown by practically top of the line test pilots. They are definitely amongst the best in the business. The IJT will have to be amazingly sturdy and forgiving because it is meant for training. Please check, even the manufacturer is not taking up IOC. This cannot be an import lobby activity.

We all need this plane to work. But our guys in HAL know best and I am sure that they will rectify the problem.

BTW: Trainees do learn and practice spin on the piston engine stage. So while spin is known, the jet experience for a trainee is new.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2014 21:42

rrao wrote:http://www.hal-india.com/tender/ardc/NIT_EOI-%20HJT-36_16-8-14.pdf

indranil....hope you have read the tender contents from the above link...

Yes, I reported it here. 4 days before Shiv Aroor went "exclusive", "breaking news" over it :-).

It says that the plane is going to be inducted into the force next year. This is the main part of the tender
The design of the above need to be revisited, analyzed and the scope for weight reduction / optimization studied while ensuring minimum the required strength, stiffness & fatigue criteria. The new innovative ideas w.r.t. material, LRU’s and other related equipments maintainability shall be included.

Towards this HAL is looking forward for partnership / technical assistance / consultancy from a well experienced airframe design house. The interested companies may respond with detailed justification of their capabilities and tentative plan with time lines for HAL to consider issuing formal tenders.

Other Details
1. This weight reduction / optimization study must be comprehensive, encompassing all the Structure, Mechanical Systems & Electrical Avionics Systems. It should meet the adequate strength, stiffness and fatigue criteria, methodology for testing, Analysis and functioning details are to be provided.
2. Response is requested only from Reputed Airframe design and development house.
3. The response should include the necessary timelines and plans for providing the weight reduction / optimization schemes and its implementation on the aircraft. Governmental clearances where applicable, if required, need to be obtained by the vendor for supply of services to HAL at appropriate time.
4. The Budgetary ROM price should be included in the response.
5. The methodology used for analysis and all data generated for this task should be transferred to HAL and the vendor should assist HAL in obtaining the necessary airworthiness certification by providing all required documentation, explanations / clarifications.
6. The response should cover all the aspects that will be employed for the weight reduction / optimization exercise.


To me it looks like a weight reduction program. I can't say anything more or less from this information!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Surya » 11 Jul 2014 23:13

4 days before Shiv Aroor went "exclusive", "breaking news" over it :-).


you forgot "am the first to post it" :)

He is getting worse - and seems nothing can shame him

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 12 Jul 2014 01:15

Is the IJT an urgent requirement?

1. No major airforce in the world operates a three-tier training system (BT/IJT/AJT). They all go from a fast turboprop to AJT to fighter.

USAF T-6 > T-38 > F-15/F-16

USN T-6 > T-45 > F-18

RAF Tucano > Hawk > Tornado/EF

AdlA TB-30 > Alpha Jet > M2K/Rafale

ROKAF KT-1 > T-50 > F-15/16

JASDF T-7 > T-4 > F-2/F-15

RuAF Yak-52 > L-39/Yak-130 > MiG/Su-XX

The only exception here is the PLAAF which has traditionally had a basic trainer-IJT-fast jet system but will start inducting the Hongdu L-15 AJT/LIFT.


2. Of course a valid argument could be made that the IAF doesn't have enough jet trainers. In which case, the simple solution is to order another batch of Hawks from HAL and perhaps place an order for a squadron of Tejas trainers. Given the absurd number of aircraft types the IAF already operates, one would have hoped for some sort of rationalization plan, but clearly that's a bridge too far.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 12 Jul 2014 01:40

My recollection is that in late 90s both a single engined "IJT" and a two-engined "AJT" were proposed. Only the IJT got sanctioned.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shreeman » 12 Jul 2014 01:53

deejay wrote:Shreeman ji, do not confuse spin on IJT with 'import'. The spin is not taught as a maneuver for combat or take off and landing. Spin teaching is a necessity of the syllabus in Stage II. LCA will not need to teach spin. IJT will.

By the time pilots fly LCA, expect them to have 200 -250 hrs plus flying experience including fast trainers like HAWK AJT.

When the trainee pilots will take the IJT for spin they will have ~100 hrs including basic stage on the Pilatus. Basic stage is 'slow moving 'piston' engine. Stage II is the first Jet aircraft trainees will fly. The HJT-16 Kiran Mk I is a beautiful aircraft and multiple generations of IAF pilots will swear by it. Even in Kiran we lost trainees to non recovery from Spin. Others did not become pilots because they froze on controls prior to spin. Not every body is made for combat flying and one does not need to bring down aircraft and humans to forcefully buy a jet which is not ready.

The aircraft under testing are being flown by practically top of the line test pilots. They are definitely amongst the best in the business. The IJT will have to be amazingly sturdy and forgiving because it is meant for training. Please check, even the manufacturer is not taking up IOC. This cannot be an import lobby activity.

We all need this plane to work. But our guys in HAL know best and I am sure that they will rectify the problem.

BTW: Trainees do learn and practice spin on the piston engine stage. So while spin is known, the jet experience for a trainee is new.


Let me put it this way, I have been in a spin.

Next, the statement that teaching spin in the first flight of IJTs delivered to IAF is necessary before the aircraft is characterized properly is patently false. It makes no sense.

Aircraft handling, and every other aspect can be taught until the second flight of spin capable ijts are delivered.

What escapes everyone here is that punching out is an individual decision, and unless the aircraft is totally docile, the couple of seconds available to recover are not sufficient for a second try. Kavery /= LCA. Spin /= IJT.

Get out of the khadi gramudyog stage to low rate production and solve the spin issue in parallel.

This holds, of course, if spin characteristics are the only problem left to conquer. But we lnow nothing of what test points have been covered, what remain, not even how many test aircraft exist. So the plane may have problems in routine handling too, who knows.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 12 Jul 2014 02:20

I can't agree with you. IJT being able to recover from spin is necessary before the plane is fielded. I had explained this before, it is not just for the purpose of just teaching the student to recover from flat spin. A rookie can inadvertently stall the plane due to over enthusiasm or inexperience during a whole lot of maneuvers. There has to be a way for him and his trainer to return.

We can argue that if it is not possible to do it using the control surfaces of the plane alone, go into production with a spin chute for the moment. It is not ideal, but IAF was fine with this remedy for Kiran as a stop gap. No reason why it cannot accept IJT in this fashion. But obviously, this problem has to be solved, using the control surfaces alone.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shreeman » 12 Jul 2014 04:19

indranilroy wrote:I can't agree with you. IJT being able to recover from spin is necessary before the plane is fielded. I had explained this before, it is not just for the purpose of just teaching the student to recover from flat spin. A rookie can inadvertently stall the plane due to over enthusiasm or inexperience during a whole lot of maneuvers. There has to be a way for him and his trainer to return.

We can argue that if it is not possible to do it using the control surfaces of the plane alone, go into production with a spin chute for the moment. It is not ideal, but IAF was fine with this remedy for Kiran as a stop gap. No reason why it cannot accept IJT in this fashion. But obviously, this problem has to be solved, using the control surfaces alone.


Indranil, this exact line of questioning is so old that I have typed what you write above the last time in this threads lifespan. I argued then, reading the tea leaves, what you argue now. I am blind --to the reality -- so can only posit a gut feeling.


The aircraft warns re. stall just fine. Stall warnings will work as usual. Thus my previous thughts stand. No integral spin chute needed.

I am actually with deejay here, re teaching spin in a docile jet craft. But sometimes you cant have your cake and eat it too (penury and spine compatibility in blk-1). There is no shame in this, get the plane into broader hands and the hidden gremlins will show and ge resolved.

I have extended myself quite a bit here, so kindly excuse as I get back to rice eating in my dark strategic caves.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 12 Jul 2014 04:59

I understand what you are saying. But let me produce a scenario here.

The student is being taught how to recover from a dive. At the end of the dive, the student tentatively starts pulling on the lever. But the plane seems to be turning too slowly. The earth is drawing closer at 400-500 kmph (remember that the service ceiling of IJT is 9 km). If he starts pulling up at around 6 km. He has about 40 seconds to go before this descent will definitely be arrested (by terra firma) He does not expect to stall at this speed (2-3 times his stall speed and flying wings level) and in this anxiety the kid yanks the lever back. But wait, laws of aerodynamics say that he can stall (accelerated stall), and he has been warned about it. But in this moment of anxiety will he remember it? And then the stall warnings come on. There are lights and sounds, and may be even shaking.

99 out of 100 student pilots will understand the situation and go easy on the lever (it is very counter intuitive and unnerving, because you have to turn the nose to the ground, when you are actually trying to avoid it). But that one student will panic (nothing new seasoned civilian pilots do so every now and then). And he will stall. If the instructor cannot wrestle back control before the student has lost control, he has to now be able to recover the stalled plane. If you don't give him that capability, you are looking at 2-3 crashes every year at the current rate of pilot training in the IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 12 Jul 2014 05:12

I think that one of the problems with aircraft design is that you cannot reliably design spin and recovery characteristics into it. Aircraft are designed to fly, not spin. There have been aircraft that have refused to spin easily and the Hawk was one such aircraft - and it had to undergo some modification to coax it to get into a spin.

There are other aircraft that are known to be unrecoverable if they get into a spin - and I think the HF 24 was one example of that.

Neither of these situations is desirable for a trainer aircraft. Getting into a spin, keeping a cool head, and doing what it takes to recover are an integral part of training, Still spin and recovery characteristics are often "discovered" after an aircraft goes into service. Air Marshal Rajkumar had once mentioned to me that the spin trials on the Gripen had gone on for years after entry into service - but then again I think the IAF wants a trainer that behaves like a trainer - that is , it can be coaxed into a spin and will recover when certain things are done, by the instructor if the trainee fails to do them.

In an offline conversation I heard that IJT spin issues were taken back to the wind tunnel and some changes made. Whether any aircraft with such changes are flying, I don't know

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shreeman » 12 Jul 2014 06:55

shiv wrote:I think that one of the problems with aircraft design is that you cannot reliably design spin and recovery characteristics into it. Aircraft are designed to fly, not spin. There have been aircraft that have refused to spin easily and the Hawk was one such aircraft - and it had to undergo some modification to coax it to get into a spin.

There are other aircraft that are known to be unrecoverable if they get into a spin - and I think the HF 24 was one example of that.

Neither of these situations is desirable for a trainer aircraft. Getting into a spin, keeping a cool head, and doing what it takes to recover are an integral part of training, Still spin and recovery characteristics are often "discovered" after an aircraft goes into service. Air Marshal Rajkumar had once mentioned to me that the spin trials on the Gripen had gone on for years after entry into service - but then again I think the IAF wants a trainer that behaves like a trainer - that is , it can be coaxed into a spin and will recover when certain things are done, by the instructor if the trainee fails to do them.

In an offline conversation I heard that IJT spin issues were taken back to the wind tunnel and some changes made. Whether any aircraft with such changes are flying, I don't know


shiv,

What you say is right - but lets not overestimate the importance of spin recovery. As you note aircraft are made to fly not stall. In a two seater, with an experienced pilot in one seàt, a spin is not somethng that just happens. Flying is not something this erratic that for this trainer, a spin would just happen everyday. Hgh T/W aircraft dont just stall for lack of lift and you dont go distracted watching VFR wonders.

Having one more type and additional hours of routine flying under your belt does wonders for your competency. Especially if you can flog a home grown aircraft like the kiran.

The nub lies in using the plane as a leverage against high cost of import while prefering imports down to the screw driver.

Whether they make a Saras or HTT32 of IJT, there is a purposeful stupidity OR cunning at work here. Could well be an arjun style procurement.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 12 Jul 2014 19:16

In a two seater, with an experienced pilot in one seàt, a spin is not something that just happens


True. But the nervous moments for the instructors is when the pupil goes solo.

Not as a counter but just as a fact, I remember one accident of non recovery from Spin with both Instructor and Pupil on board (safe ejections) in Kiran.

While on this discussion, would extended hours, say another 100 - 150 hrs on the Pilatus prepare those streaming in to fighters for a straight transition to HAWK AJT?

Added later: I think they have sorted out the spin issues with the IJT.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Victor » 12 Jul 2014 22:46

Viv S wrote:Is the IJT an urgent requirement?

Of course not. The Hawk was purchased because the IJT refused to arrive. No airplane can be made that will exactly meet only the defined performance of a so-called intermediate trainer without also meeting some of the performance requirements of basic and advanced trainers. In the case of the IJT, the roles are very closely intertwined with the Hawk "advanced" trainer which in any other air force worth the name also qualifies as an "intermediate" trainer. Our rookie pilots are not wussies who need to be tenderly weened from basic to advanced training. This pigeon-holing of roles (intermediate, advanced, light, medium) is a ridiculous exercise inherited from socialist "planning" times.

I wonder if the Al-55 was purposely ordered to be slightly less powerful than existing "advanced" trainer engines to justify the existence of an "intermediate" trainer. Would explain what otherwise ranks as an almost criminal decision and all the weight problems the IJT is suffering from now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shreeman » 13 Jul 2014 05:37

deejay wrote:
In a two seater, with an experienced pilot in one seàt, a spin is not something that just happens


True. But the nervous moments for the instructors is when the pupil goes solo.

Not as a counter but just as a fact, I remember one accident of non recovery from Spin with both Instructor and Pupil on board (safe ejections) in Kiran.

While on this discussion, would extended hours, say another 100 - 150 hrs on the Pilatus prepare those streaming in to fighters for a straight transition to HAWK AJT?

Added later: I think they have sorted out the spin issues with the IJT.


Absolutely true. And a nervous pilot sitting on mechanical coupled twin controls has killed many an instructor as well. It is a risky business. If you want to be a pilot, even a small bird is a risk to your life. Neither crashes nor envelop limits should be the kind of limitation they are being made out to us.

Another red herring is the MTBO of the engine. No one really knows what it means, but all choose to complain about the x000 hour or y000 hours. Aircraft need maintenance. And man power is not something india is short of.

The problem here is attempting to build a mercedes *brand* for the sake of ego or politics. Why? So what if it is overweight? So what if it cant land at daulat beg oldie? You need users to develop anything, and this khadi gramodyog approach of making three at a time and crashung them will not work.

If they have solved the spin issues, fine. There will be other limitations tgat the swiss paid media or the poodlistan pound beholden will write about. screw them, i say (pardon the language) and build a few hundred. It takes time to operationalize anything, and that is not all spinning.

remember even the dhruv didnt escape this. and it doesnt today. Every mechanical fault is made out to be the end of the world, schedule delays, limitations of non-rotor folding, ecuador crashes all show up every time. The entire F35 fleet is grounded. Cant make it to Farnborough. There was only a canopy at QE2 naming. Is that different?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ramana » 13 Jul 2014 06:57




The article is a non-sequitor.

After Modi election, PRC is no longer interested in a 2 front war.
Reason it has bigger implications.

While MMS was there the possibility was there for 2 front war as he could be arm twisted by US to not go beyond.

Not any more.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 13 Jul 2014 07:09

Love the fact how all these IAF folks routinely play up the JF-17 whilst refusing to talk much about the LCA (which is easily equivalent/superior to the JF-17 even in its MK1 variant) apart from its delayed, this that.
Only the great shri Rafale or next import can save us. From the JF-17. From the J-10. :rotfl:
Truly, we are import addicted & there needs to be some tough policy laid down by the new admin to knock some long term strategy into the IAF/IA policies.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 13 Jul 2014 12:44

I strongly feel that second line of LCA should be given to Mukesh Bhai. In no time, all the media, politicians and brass will start loving LCA and orders will go upto 1000. Reliance will also do a better job than HAL even though HAL has 50 years head start.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 13 Jul 2014 12:47

A question, how many times "combat aircraft" enter into spin per year?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_23694 » 13 Jul 2014 12:58

Reliance will also do a better job than HAL even though HAL has 50 years head start.

Couple of things will definitely happen
1. Scale : scale of manufacture will be unmatched.
2. MK.2 development will be speeded up in a mission mode with strict timeline for sure. Reliance may even buy up Saab to speed up MK.2 development and kill competition :wink: . OK a bit of exaggeration but who knows :)
3. We will get more writings and brochures about Tejas MK.1 and MK.2 just like F 35 has with the backing of LM, which can be used to post in this forum

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 13 Jul 2014 13:16

vic wrote:A question, how many times "combat aircraft" enter into spin per year?

How many times combat aircraft enter into combat per year?


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