Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 20 Jul 2014 12:03

Siddhu wrote::-? A noob question.....

Are the palnes of IAF Insured?? Do we get money when plane crashes ???

:-? :-?

Doubt it. Insurance companies run away when there is war and premiums would be high even at peacetime (for the machines).

Insurance is a money making business for the underwriters, not an altruistic activity - so insuring warplanes is iffy business.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby girish.r » 20 Jul 2014 13:18

Would this article be apt in this forum? Apologies if posted in wrong forum, but was wondering if Air India a/c in which PM Modi travels, shouldn't it have capabilities to wither STA or ATA missiles? :roll:

Why Modi's Air India One is a sitting duck for missiles

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/air-india-one-narendra-modi-flew-over-ukraine-malaysian-airlines-mh17-crash/1/373223.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby SanjayC » 20 Jul 2014 13:27

Siddhu wrote::-? A noob question.....

Are the palnes of IAF Insured?? Do we get money when plane crashes ???

:-? :-?


They don't insure planes for the same reason that ISRO doesn't insure its satellites and rockets -- the client and insurance company both would be government firms, and money will simply transfer from one pocket to another.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 20 Jul 2014 16:05

Are Air India planes insured? And if so by whom?

Lloyds should agree to insure sats/rockets.

Besides, there is something called self-insurance. Companies like Accenture, Lucent, etc, are self-insured. They set aside funds just for this purpose. So a nation could do the same. It is after all a matter of covering risks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 20 Jul 2014 16:50

NRao wrote:Are Air India planes insured? And if so by whom?

Lloyds should agree to insure sats/rockets.

Besides, there is something called self-insurance. Companies like Accenture, Lucent, etc, are self-insured. They set aside funds just for this purpose. So a nation could do the same. It is after all a matter of covering risks.


I don't about ISRO rockets, but I wouldn't worry about IAF planes and pilots on Insurance. The way things work, I won't be surprised if the rockets are insured too. The CAG will chew the backsides if Public Assets do not get covered well.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vaibhav.n » 20 Jul 2014 21:55

chackojoseph wrote:They could be subject to transportation, project etc insurance. Both soldiers and war machines cannot be insured.


All Army personnel are provided Personal and Government Life Insurance by the AGIF (Army Group Insurance Fund). These facilities are provided both during and post retirement as part of the Central Government Employees Group Insurance Scheme (CGEGIS).

Controller of Defence Accounts has communicated the decision of Board of Members of Army Group Insurance Fund (AGIF) that Insurance Cover of Commissioned Officers and Non Commissioned Officers are revised to Rs.50 lakhs and Rs.25 lakhs respectively.


I believe similar facilities exist for DRDO, IAF and IN chaps too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 21 Jul 2014 10:55

vaibhav.n wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:They could be subject to transportation, project etc insurance. Both soldiers and war machines cannot be insured.


All Army personnel are provided Personal and Government Life Insurance by the AGIF (Army Group Insurance Fund). These facilities are provided both during and post retirement as part of the Central Government Employees Group Insurance Scheme (CGEGIS).

Controller of Defence Accounts has communicated the decision of Board of Members of Army Group Insurance Fund (AGIF) that Insurance Cover of Commissioned Officers and Non Commissioned Officers are revised to Rs.50 lakhs and Rs.25 lakhs respectively.


I believe similar facilities exist for DRDO, IAF and IN chaps too.


Yes, all personnel, military or para military, under MOD or Home Ministry, the insurance is mandatory. The machines are also insured. All.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chetak » 21 Jul 2014 11:00

SanjayC wrote:
Siddhu wrote::-? A noob question.....

Are the palnes of IAF Insured?? Do we get money when plane crashes ???

:-? :-?


They don't insure planes for the same reason that ISRO doesn't insure its satellites and rockets -- the client and insurance company both would be government firms, and money will simply transfer from one pocket to another.


Any civilian who flies on a Indian armed forces aircraft has to sign an indemnity bond and because of this they cannot have any claim against the Indian armed forces for any reason.

They can always choose not to sign and therefore not to fly.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rrao » 21 Jul 2014 11:04

Deejay, since IJT is a military aircraft RCMA(A/C) which is under CEMILAC will be issuing the certification and not DGCA which is meant for commercial aircraft certification.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby sum » 21 Jul 2014 13:40

From the article on Air India one:
In 2009, the IAF's Communications Squadron inducted three specially-equipped 46-seater Boeing Business Jets (BBJs) for Rs.936.93 crore.

These aircrafts flown by Air Force pilots from the IAF's communication squadron are equipped with Electronic Countermeasures that can protect the planes from incoming missiles.

The Rs.200-crore ECM suite has a Missile Advanced Warning System that sets off an alarm in the cockpit when a radar locks onto the aircraft. The aircraft can then launch chaff and flares to decoy incoming missiles.

The BBJs with a maximum range of 11,000 km and twin engine configuration are deemed insufficient for a long range VIP aircraft.


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/air- ... 73223.html

Are these BBJs ELINT platforms or for VIP travel?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 21 Jul 2014 19:45

rrao wrote:Deejay, since IJT is a military aircraft RCMA(A/C) which is under CEMILAC will be issuing the certification and not DGCA which is meant for commercial aircraft certification.


Yes Sir, CEMILAC being Center for Military Airworthiness and Certification, they will certify for Airthworthiness too, but from the best I could gather as I am still to source any authentic literature on this, CEMILAC while handling Ab Initio Designs looks after "Conformance to Airworthiness Requirements".

From what I know, these Airworthiness Requirements are as laid out in DGCA, CAR 21. The DGCA CAR 21 itself is based on the ICAO published Airworthiness Requirement.

I have provided this link before for a document on http://www.scribd.com. This is the best I could find. Please look in the diagram in the ab initio design segment.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49648218/Center-for-Military-Airworthiness-and-Certification-CEMILAC

I may be wrong but I am very interested in finding about this in greater detail. I wish to know more on this, so if you have anything or you can lead me somewhere, I will be obliged.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 25 Jul 2014 18:27

7 feared killed in IAF chopper crash

An Indian Air Force helicopter on Friday crashed in Sitapur with all seven persons on board feared killed.

The Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv had taken off from Bareilly. Sub Divisional Magistrate, Sidhauli, A.K. Srivastava said that the chopper was engulfed in fire as it crashed in Manipurwa in Ataria area.

“A helicopter of airforce has crashed here. It is engulfed in fire and it is feared that all on board might have died,” Mr. Srivastava told PTI.

Attempts were underway to douse the fire. Senior officials of district administration and police have reached the spot.

District Magistrate, Sitapur, J.P. Singh said that the helicopter took off from Bareilly and was going towards Allahabad.

“According to our information, there were seven persons on board the chopper including a pilot and a co-pilot. As per the reports received from officials, no one is appeared to have survived,” he said.

Sitapur is nearly 160 km from Bareilly and over 90 km from Lucknow.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 26 Jul 2014 05:39

Bad news.7 IAF personnel killed in an ALH crash near Sitapur in UP.The pilot reported an emergency shortly after take off.The govt. has just announced the order of 32 more Dhruvs.2 ALHs supplied to Ecuador have also crashed,though at least one was reported due to pilot error.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22605 » 26 Jul 2014 06:12

Philip sir, what has the order for 32 more dhruvs got to do with the unfortunate crash or with the crashes at Ecuador? Are you trying to imply something? I just fail to understand the logic behind your post.Or maybe you want to ditch the ALH and buy the Ka-62.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 26 Jul 2014 06:58

^Oh why even bother asking? His intentions are as clear as the morning sky on a peak summer day. He acts sympathetic to indigenous products that he cannot find any fault with, but in reality is is all for Russia. Did he EVER raise such doubts when Russian products were falling from the sky. It is not as if any Russian helicopter has not crashed in India. This is the kind of people that make us so pathetic in indigenisation of our defense. We can imagine the kind of damage such biased-fanboy type people can do if they were in the military (which they surely are).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 26 Jul 2014 07:13

Philip wrote:Bad news.7 IAF personnel killed in an ALH crash near Sitapur in UP.The pilot reported an emergency shortly after take off.The govt. has just announced the order of 32 more Dhruvs.2 ALHs supplied to Ecuador have also crashed,though at least one was reported due to pilot error.


My my, what do we have here?

2011 Tawang Town Mil Mi-17 crash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tawan ... i-17_crash


AF's rescue helicopter Mi-17 crashes in Uttarakhand, 8 killed
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... -gaurikund

Now take a look at who is doing the job that a RUSSIAN helicopter could not do in the above situation, here I have even got a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqztIFFrD2c

LO BEHOLD, is the stinky, smelly SDRE HAL Dhruv. Oh my God, I hope we have not ordered more Russian helicopters, since I have pointed out two instances where they crashed. Wait a sec, we just signed a contract for another 71 in 2012 at cost of US$1.3 billion. We should cancel that order immediately.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Surya » 26 Jul 2014 08:07

we used to blame DDM for bringing up delays and crashes in every article

now we have ....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby uddu » 26 Jul 2014 08:19

RIP brave souls.

Philiphosky,please refrain from bringing in Russian equipment at every opportunity. Its so boring man.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 26 Jul 2014 15:44

I actually don't mind Phillip's consistent pitch for russian gear. Easy to tune out the postings altogether.

Now can't say same about other undercover import gurus. Those i feel at pains to be with as they put a lot of effort in masking their true intentions !

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 26 Jul 2014 15:51

nik wrote:I actually don't mind Phillip's consistent pitch for russian gear. Easy to tune out the postings altogether.

Now can't say same about other undercover import gurus. Those i feel at pains to be with as they put a lot of effort in masking their true intentions !


+1 There are lot of import Rajas playing the import Baja surreptitiously.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Multatuli » 26 Jul 2014 15:59

We just lost 7 IAF personel, and he, Phillip, uses it to insinuate that the Dhruva isn't reliable and safe enough (as compared to Russian heli's)! That's sick!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 26 Jul 2014 17:06

Well when it comes to Indian made gear. It must pass thru hundreds of tests and countless summer and winter trials. Before it can ever be accepted into service. Heaven forbid, if one happens to crash. The rudalies will be out in force. It is Indian gear that sucks.

Common guys, an aircraft with millions of Hrs of flying, has a few crashes. Its an integral part of flying. Get used to it.

The pilots who fly are perfectly aware that the aircraft they fly can crash, due to any one of a million reasons. They don't go Hai tauba, hai tauba we may crash.

This is a uniquly Indian trait.

I am so relieved, that the no LCA has crashed in the last 14 years of flying. Else, these people would have raised hell to make sure that the program gets cancelled.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 26 Jul 2014 17:24

I am thinking about the best name for persons who surreptitiously support imports. Any suggestions? My pick:-

Import Rajas
Import Bajas
Import Rudalis
Import Ayatollahs
Import Patriots


This is not your personal forum where you'll go around naming and branding people. You try this stunt again and you're looking at a warning here. Enough of your nonsense on this. - rohitvats.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28454 » 26 Jul 2014 22:38

vic wrote:I am thinking about the best name for persons who surreptitiously support imports. Any suggestions? My pick:-

Import Rajas
Import Bajas
Import Rudalis
Import Ayatollahs
Import Patriots


This is not your personal forum where you'll go around naming and branding people. You try this stunt again and you're looking at a warning here. Enough of your nonsense on this. - rohitvats.


Rohitvats, the real cause for concern here is how the import lobby uses every incident however tragic to kill Indian products & industry to facilitate imports, imports whose own faults are conveniently overlooked.
Please do not take the outrage that is felt as a result of this as a personal insult to your ego and insult the members of this forum. A forum by definition belongs to everyone who participates and the "moderator" are moderators not owners.
The truth cannot be suppressed by insulting those that say it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 26 Jul 2014 22:56

srutayus wrote: Rohitvats, the real cause for concern here is how the import lobby uses every incident however tragic to kill Indian products & industry to facilitate imports, imports whose own faults are conveniently overlooked. Please do not take the outrage that is felt as a result of this as a personal insult to your ego and insult the members of this forum. A forum by definition belongs to everyone who participates and the "moderator" are moderators not owners. The truth cannot be suppressed by insulting those that say it.


No one is stopping anyone from airing his or her POV. Only request made is to use civil language. There are enough posters here who can and do shred the decision made by Services to pieces w/o resorting to foul language. Strong language, Yes but not foul language. And therein lies the difference.

The board is a medium to exchange information and ideas - but not for the kind of nonsense which I censured and you chose to take umbrage for. And the language and content used in reference post does not constitute anything worthwhile.

Go ahead, do some research, put facts on the table and expose the conspiracy behind any subject related to Services. But irrespective of how strongly you feel about the subject, you're not welcome to indulge in the kind of nonsense displayed earlier. Or to use foul language.

I hope I've made myself clear.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Jul 2014 00:27

srutayus wrote:Please do not take the outrage that is felt as a result of this as a personal insult to your ego and insult the members of this forum. A forum by definition belongs to everyone who participates and the "moderator" are moderators not owners.
The truth cannot be suppressed by insulting those that say it.


Its very true, not just moderators but even the owners are not whole sole owners.

We as posters are also contributing post after post and the day a post is few hours old we even lose the right to edit it, leave out deleting it.

No matter how boring or pathetic my posts are but still the forum keeps it and there is no way i can force forum to delete them in future.

The forum owners may know which location the poster is posting from. Who knows in future who can be given access to this info.

For instance 'Arun_S' was asked to leave the forum and he asked forum to remove his missile page and it was removed it took some weeks to do it but it was done, but thousands of his posts are still here in BRF, they were not removed. So the posters also become partners in BRF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 27 Jul 2014 01:20

@ Rohitvats - In most developed parts of the world - been called 'stupid' is like been trampled over and saying that your genes are below par. I am sure you are unaware but please refrain when going after individual posters with inappropriate language.

It's the post not the person you need to moderate. Some individuals engage in a bit of humor which is necessary given the ludicrous situation.

Please refrain from using strong language like 'nonsense' or use synonyms (aka google search) to move focus on post - not person.

My 'humble' suggestions!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Multatuli » 27 Jul 2014 02:16

Folks, this back and forth is unnecessary. Obviously, Rohit Vats didn't call anyone stupid, I also agree that Vic's post didn't add anything useful.

But enough about that.

What I take umbrage to, is any insinuation that there is something wrong with the Dhruva, that it's not safe.

If any forum member has reason to think that the Dhruva has a higher crash rate/needs disproportionate maintenance (compared with other heli's)/whatever, then say it like that. But don't just insinuate and bring in our only export success. Why be our own worst enemy?

Such post will draw sharp reactions. And I am truly sorry to respond like that to a senior member. Perhaps Philip didn't mean it like that: in that case I'll be happy to apologize and retract my above post.

Now please let's stop this unnecessary discussion and move on to the subject this thread is meant for.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 27 Jul 2014 08:37

^EVERYONE knows what Philip meant, there is no need to apologize. I can honestly say there is no one stupid enough to fall for his silly games on this forum, but there may be some sympathetic fanboys who want to go with him despite the dirty games that are played.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby abhik » 27 Jul 2014 09:49

^^^
One must also keep in mind that the forum is visited by a lot of impressionable newbies and casual visitors.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby arun » 27 Jul 2014 16:37

Something for historical aviation buffs.

Brand new C-17 Globemaster III of the IAF, the 6th, will stop off in the UK en-route to India and haul back a North American T-6 G Harvard trainer that was restored there. The Harvard joins a previously restored De Havilland Tiger Moth and in future will be joined by a Hawker Hurricane, a Supermarine Spitfire, a Westland Lysander, a Hawker Tempest and a Westland Wapiti :

When a brand new C-17 III Globemaster super heavy transport aircraft lands at Delhi's Palam airport from the US to join the IAF fleet next week, it will be carrying in its belly a vintage Harvard trainer that will fly in the Indian skies again after more than four decades.

The Harvard, a design that dates back to the 1930s, is being brought to India after being restored in Britain. It is the second vintage IAF aircraft to be restored after a Tiger Moth of 1930s vintage that has been flying regularly at air events.

India has a rich aviation heritage and restoration of the Tiger Moth and Harvard is part of the IAF's efforts to preserve these magnificent flying machines.

The delivery of the Harvard will mark the culmination of the first phase of a vintage aircraft restoration programme being undertaken with the help of Britain-based Re-Flight. Six more aircraft will follow this.

The second phase will see a Hurricane, a Spitfire, a Lysander and a Tempest being brought back to life. In the final phase, a Wapiti, the aircraft with which the IAF was born, will be restored.



See here:

Super heavy aircraft C-17 III Globemaster brings along vintage plane to India after being restored in Britain

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 27 Jul 2014 19:31

nik wrote:@ Rohitvats - In most developed parts of the world - been called 'stupid' is like been trampled over and saying that your genes are below par. I am sure you are unaware but please refrain when going after individual posters with inappropriate language. It's the post not the person you need to moderate. Some individuals engage in a bit of humor which is necessary given the ludicrous situation. Please refrain from using strong language like 'nonsense' or use synonyms (aka Google search) to move focus on post - not person. My 'humble' suggestions!


First, I don't think I called anybody stupid or nonsensical. Content of the post, Yes, but not the poster.

The focus has been only the content of the post. In an internet forum with anonymous handles, it matters not who you are or what you are. Only thing visible is the post(s) that you make. So, it's the post that gets called out. And that is what happened in this case.

And I'm sorry, I don't see anything humorous in that post. That posts adds nothing to the topic of discussion at hand. Nobody here gets to sit on judgement on another poster.

Let me tell you something - It is not a crime or 'no-go' area on this forum if someone supports imports. Or any other POV contrary to opinion seemingly held by majority. You cannot gang-up on anyone who you disagree with by resorting to such tactics. Please feel free to refute him/them with some fact based posts - but not this labeling bit. The idea is not to have a shouting match but exchange information. A little cussing or strong language never hurt anyone but not this labeling bit. If him/they still don't agree with what you say, please ignore them. But don't indulge in these antics.

Tangentially, if you persist with a certain behavior, it becomes synonymous with you or better still, your handle. And it becomes a marker to keep tab on those likely to breach forum rules.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 27 Jul 2014 21:11

Admin note - I have deleted this post but not handed out a warning as a last attempt to keep some sanity on this and other threads.

any more personal attacks, will result in me summarily deleting the threads instantly...its your loss.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 28 Jul 2014 03:48

There is a revealing snippet in one of the Std Committee Reports where an IAF person indirectly notes usual serviceability is only at 60-70% thanks to funding limitations and only if GOI funds more can it be raised to 80-85%. While we know all about the UPA idiocy and Antonys misrule, its worth noting that the IAF seems eager to acquire platforms perhaps in the hope that funds will be available in the future to raise serviceability. The older MiGs etc are clearly maintenance hogs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby merlin » 28 Jul 2014 13:52

That Dhruv crash is, IIRC, the first crash in India with people killed. Not good news at all. I hope the cause is localized to that particular Dhruv and doesn't turn out to be a system wide problem requiring the fleet to be grounded until fixed. Dhruvs are now in widespread use and a grounding will effect things quite a bit (a "good" situation to have, the widespread use bit).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 28 Jul 2014 14:03

How do we know that the issue is with the machine and not the condition in which it was flying?

Hell, the black hawk crashed during the Osama operation. Doesn't mean that the black hawk suffers from issues.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby sankum » 28 Jul 2014 14:15

This was Dhruv 9th crash leading to total write off and not the first in which the lives were lost. One army Dhruv with 4 lives lost, 2 IAF DHRUV with 9 lives lost and 1 BSF with 3 lives lost. 1 Ecuador with 3 live lost.

The crash rate of Dhruv is high with estimated 1 total loss per 15000 hours of flying but this is only the second were technical malfunction is suspected and the rest were human error or weather.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 28 Jul 2014 19:29


rohitvats
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 28 Jul 2014 20:05

I flew out of IGI Airport some days back. For some reason, the IAF side of the airport had 3 x C-17 a/c along with Hercules. May be for the ceremony associated with latest arrival or some sort of maintenance work going on in Hindon or I'm simply thinking too much...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 28 Jul 2014 20:06

Can somebody indicate how many Dhruvs are flying and how many more are on order?


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