Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 26 Sep 2014 14:51

My bad. It's Sortie rate.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 26 Sep 2014 15:38

What is the source of the data for Tejas CMT & VMT of 3.4+0.76 and 3.4+0.64?
What is the source of data for the other aircraft?
Request you to share the same.
Any analysis is as good as the source of the data.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 26 Sep 2014 17:10

I think the post clarifies it that there are approximations. The model for computation is interesting and handy for those who have real data.

The datum is arbitrary or seems arbitrary at points where Su 30 distance to target etc are concerned as I could not understand the reasoning in increasing the base parameters for this aircraft over others by x amount therefore not an apple to apple comparison, IMO. Again, I would not claim Sortie Rate as key to evaluate combat effectiveness of the aircraft but combat availability of the aircraft.

How is this related to Cold Start? Not clear on this too.

Still, an interesting model for comparison.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2014 01:39

The New Indian Express
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 446976.ece

R73E's...judging by the range.

Home > States > Odisha
Russian Air-to-air Missiles Hit Target

By Hemant Kumar Rout

Published: 24th September 2014 06:06 AM

BALASORE: In a first ever exercise, three rounds of air-to-air short range Russian missile were test fired by the Indian Air Force (IAF) as part of their user trial on Tuesday. The missiles were coordinated to destroy tow bodies released from pilotless target aircraft (PTA) flown from a defence base off the Odisha coast.

The tests which were initially planned on last Thursday could not be conducted due to technical glitches in the PTA. Another attempt on Friday was postponed due to inclement weather.

Sources said the non-DRDO Russian missiles were fired from fighter aircraft targeting the floating objects released from unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) Lakshya flown from the launching complex-II of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea.

“Altogether six fighter aircraft, two each in every round were engaged in the exercise. The aircraft were of Sukhoi and MiG 29 classes. While one was used as attacker, the other as chaser. After the attacker aircraft fired the missile, the chaser tracked its movement and precision of firing. The entire exercise was conducted in a real time scenario,” said an official.

While the whole exercise was carried out by the personnel of IAF, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) provided logistic support. The aircraft had taken off from the Kalaikunda air base near Kharagpur in West Bengal and successfully targeted the tow bodies over Bay of Bengal.


The test was aimed at gauging the suitability and efficiency of the weapon system. These missiles were procured by India from Russia several years ago for the use of Air Force to give air protection to Indian cities against air strikes by manned or unmanned air vehicles flying at low and medium altitudes.

Sources said the Russian missiles have the capability to efficiently engage targets at a range of 15 km at minimum altitude in less than 10 seconds. The missiles used for the test were selected randomly from the lot, said the official adding that more rounds of tests have been planned on Wednesday and Thursday.

This mission was crucial for the IAF as last year an Air Force troupe had to wind up their air defence exercise at the test facility here as three trials of the five attempts made to engage aerial targets by a Russian surface-to-air missile (SAM) failed.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 27 Sep 2014 01:59

What is the correlation between testing AAMs because SAMs failed last year?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 27 Sep 2014 02:31

It's Rout...he has to sprinkle some masala and doom and gloom. Be thankful he didn't go overboard. On the plus side, looks like IAF is validating its inventory.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Sep 2014 05:14

tsarkar wrote:What is the source of the data for Tejas CMT & VMT of 3.4+0.76 and 3.4+0.64?
What is the source of data for the other aircraft?
Request you to share the same.
Any analysis is as good as the source of the data.


Here is what author said :

Derived out of some parameters. He mentioned in article that its the model which he wants to show, not concentrate on data.

deejay

That cold start thing LCA Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine – Potential Joint Operations Test case

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28580 » 27 Sep 2014 13:10

Thank you Joseph Chacko for pointing out this thread and also posting my article on "Sortie Rate Model"

As I mentioned in the caveat the article is focused on simple way to approximate sortie rate. The data used for the article is just a representative way of showing how these parameters may lead to sortie rate calculations for various types of aircraft with the air force.

One of the most important parameter when we do simple bean counting to measure combat potential of any force is the number of combat systems. In the case of fighter aircraft, number of aircraft "available" depends upon the uptime (time when it is not under repairs). How quickly an aircraft can be serviced and brought back for mission after first mission defines its availability. A true reflection of an aircraft combat effectiveness (besides its lethality, self-protection, integration with other combat systems) depends upon its operational capability. The operational capability has an important parameter - sortie rate -How many missions in a day an aircraft can launch.

On the reason why I presented this model and connection with Cold Start Doctrine

Earlier I wrote - a proposition - that LCA can help in CSD or a variant of it. As we need a rapid run of 8 IBG's or so across the border about 100KM in 72 hours. To achieve such rapid distributed momentum consistent, continuous and comprehensive air support is needed. LCA can play that role. to launch 100 sorties in 72 hours we need a fighter that can do quick sorties. Compared to heavy aircraft and older aircraft, LCA potentially can be a handy option.

Once again, I would like to state - the simple model is nothing but a simple computation. However, with proper estimates of various parameters one can get a fairly good idea of sortie rate of various aircraft.

Second point is that simple mathematical models can help us analyze some of the complex issues that lengthy language discourses may not help us much.

I am working on a stochastic version of the model that may be able to do a more realistic estimate of the reality.

I thank you for your interest and comments on this.

with warm regards
Navneet

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 27 Sep 2014 22:20

I am working on a stochastic version of the model


welcome!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 28 Sep 2014 03:25

From the cook's wife's country cousin's paramour,one can say that our UAV programme appears to be on the right track .The augurs are good.Perhaps we will see more of this at AE-15.Let's plan well ahead for a BR meet.Shiv,are you listening?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Thakur_B » 29 Sep 2014 20:53

http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTemplete/RFIView.aspx?MnId=5NZV7zLYJc0necPuHu82TA==

MoD's RFI for Reconnaissance and Surveillance Helicopters (RSH), new avatar of LUH procurement.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2014 20:58

Philip wrote:From the cook's wife's country cousin's paramour,one can say that our UAV programme appears to be on the right track .The augurs are good.Perhaps we will see more of this at AE-15.Let's plan well ahead for a BR meet.Shiv,are you listening?

Yes Philip. It's been a while since we met and took snaps of all the birds :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28722 » 30 Sep 2014 02:50

Karan M wrote:Its not always that bad. Availability is subject to availability of spares. Su-30 MKI availability will rise over time to consistently around 80% plus because of local spares. Mirage 2000 is trickier because everything (almost) in it, is imported since HAL never made it, we never got TOT and only limited indigenization was attempted.


In the Stratpost discussion multiple Air Marshals said that HAL may be a 100% indigenous assembler but it has not developed a supply chain to replace Russian part with local items. We are still importing a lot.
MMRCA 50% Offset idea was suppossed to fix this for future aircraft

Thoughts please?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28722 » 30 Sep 2014 02:57

Yagnasri wrote:My understanding was 30mki will do the job of Su34 even now. But I agree with you that we need a S.Bomber if not for having long long range attack capability in our own ocean so that we can really own it. With China coming agreesively here into our ocean we need that at least for naval purpose. May be copy Badger design and take of from there.

Isn't developing/producing the lighter Brahmos ALCM version which allows Su30 to carry 3 at a time an effective way to go. We already will have around 300 of them.
We should get more tanker aircraft instead of Badgers or Su34
Su30 flying out of South India, Andaman backed with tankers and awacs can easily outbomb anything that PLAN manages to get into IOR. 90 Brahmos launched from outside the SAM picket can sink any fleet the PLAN can send in IOR for next decade or more.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 30 Sep 2014 04:41

Yup! Birds,birdies and the bees! A flight of Super Sukhois with 3 BMos-Ms would beat the sh*t out of any intruding PLAN surface group.The worry is the falling sub capability.Apart from the strat. defe. SSBNs,We need both SSGNs for all-ocean blue water ops and conventional AIP subs for the littorals.There is a Business Std. report in the news td. Secondly,China's anti-carrier BMs require some defence against. More LRMP aircraft armed with BMos-M and ASW munitions would come in very handy.Cost-effective acquisitions need to be fast tracked.The PLAN Song class sub that accompanied XI Gins to Colombo wasn't on a "transit" visit.It was to show the flag in India's backyard.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28722 » 30 Sep 2014 07:43

Subs yes ... SSN even better. More importantly we need to practise ASW operations with US or Brit navies. They have years of experience of tracking Russian subs
We don't think we need to worry about the anti - carrier BMs as they hardly have the range to hit BoB or IOR from Chinese land and our carriers are not going to go beyond Mallacca.
Any future war doctrine would be on 3 prongs
minimum days
minimum loss
max damage to enemy

From an aviation pov our naval assets are quite good. We need to bring it all together.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28580 » 01 Oct 2014 11:13

On the sortie rate model used (the Rand model)

Please also look at the following link
http://www.informationdissemination.net ... tions.html

Is there any pointer for Indian AC carriers sortie rates?

How many sorties per day per aircraft are possible from Viraat and Vikramaditya will be of interest.

any pointers

Thanks

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby merlin » 01 Oct 2014 13:50

deejay wrote:^^^ I guess the sceptics want the moon! ha. It's a start. :D


And a good one too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 13:54

Philip wrote:Yup! Birds,birdies and the bees! A flight of Super Sukhois with 3 BMos-Ms would beat the sh*t out of any intruding PLAN surface group.The worry is the falling sub capability.Apart from the strat. defe. SSBNs,We need both SSGNs for all-ocean blue water ops and conventional AIP subs for the littorals.There is a Business Std. report in the news td. Secondly,China's anti-carrier BMs require some defence against. More LRMP aircraft armed with BMos-M and ASW munitions would come in very handy.Cost-effective acquisitions need to be fast tracked.The PLAN Song class sub that accompanied XI Gins to Colombo wasn't on a "transit" visit.It was to show the flag in India's backyard.


more like shove the flag up India's backyard after the stand down at the border with the Indian Army.

We should the rename the china sea as the Indo china sea to gently kick them in the nuts

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 01 Oct 2014 16:23

HTT-40 wind tunnel tests by year end

HAL has revealed that it plans to undertake comprehensive wind tunnel tests to study spin and recovery characteristics for compliance to FAR-23 (aerobatic category) standards on its HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft by the end of this year or early 2015. HAL has announced its requirement for a test agency to design and manufacture the required scale model/s to achieve all test objectives, which include rotary and static tests towards development of mathematical model for analyzing the spin and recovery characteristics of HTT-40.

The scope of work includes model design, manufacture, testing, analysis of results and associated mathematical model generation for compliance. HAL has revealed that the HTT-40 weighs about 3000 kg. The winning vendor will also be required to provide a simulation (mathematical) model of the HTT-40 aircraft to aid HAL in understanding predicted aircraft spin response and recovery controls based on wind tunnel/ other data. Already fighting an up-hill battle on the basic trainer front, HAL wants to ensure there are no slippages in the programme. And given the problems it has had with the HJT-36 in terms of spin and stall characteristics, in addition to "very low" engine flying hours before overhaul.


Don't know if HAL did any of this for the IJT program..had they done it, the spin/stall characteristics of the aircraft would've been better understood and they wouldn't have encountered so many problems in actual flight trials..I always suspected that HAL didn't have the competency to do these types of analysis and that NAL would've been contracted for the IJT, but now I'm not so sure of that either.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2014 16:43

Karan M wrote:It's Rout...he has to sprinkle some masala and doom and gloom. Be thankful he didn't go overboard. On the plus side, looks like IAF is validating its inventory.


There is already a very long running program of mandatory validations every year for all Armed forces the world over.

The IA, IN and the IAF already have such mandatory yearly programs called proof firings. These programs have been running like forever.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 03 Oct 2014 12:31


srai
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 04 Oct 2014 07:20

Kartik wrote:HTT-40 wind tunnel tests by year end

HAL has revealed that it plans to undertake comprehensive wind tunnel tests to study spin and recovery characteristics for compliance to FAR-23 (aerobatic category) standards on its HTT-40 basic trainer aircraft by the end of this year or early 2015. HAL has announced its requirement for a test agency to design and manufacture the required scale model/s to achieve all test objectives, which include rotary and static tests towards development of mathematical model for analyzing the spin and recovery characteristics of HTT-40.

The scope of work includes model design, manufacture, testing, analysis of results and associated mathematical model generation for compliance. HAL has revealed that the HTT-40 weighs about 3000 kg. The winning vendor will also be required to provide a simulation (mathematical) model of the HTT-40 aircraft to aid HAL in understanding predicted aircraft spin response and recovery controls based on wind tunnel/ other data. Already fighting an up-hill battle on the basic trainer front, HAL wants to ensure there are no slippages in the programme. And given the problems it has had with the HJT-36 in terms of spin and stall characteristics, in addition to "very low" engine flying hours before overhaul.


Don't know if HAL did any of this for the IJT program..had they done it, the spin/stall characteristics of the aircraft would've been better understood and they wouldn't have encountered so many problems in actual flight trials..I always suspected that HAL didn't have the competency to do these types of analysis and that NAL would've been contracted for the IJT, but now I'm not so sure of that either.


It sounds like HAL did not. After the 2011 crash when spin was being flight tested, one would think HAL would have put the IJT through comprehensive wind tunnel tests to study spin and recovery characteristics before attempting again. Shouldn't HAL have been sharing notes with ADA and NAL about this right at IJT inception a decade ago, especially during the time when it was waiting for new engine? One has to wonder about the level of collaboration going on between various Indian aerospace R&D labs and how HAL came up with the IJT design without conducting this type of modelling?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby SanjayC » 04 Oct 2014 07:55

Pvt cos to make UAVs for defence

It's raining UAVs in India. After years of delay, the government is set to issue at least half-a-dozen licences for manufacturing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) to private players, although civilian use still remains a closed area.

Sources in the government told TOI that the department of telecommunications, which was the main stumbling block, has agreed to allow the UAV manufacturers to use the spectrum band allocated to defence forces, paving the way for issuing licences.

During the UPA regime, it was the defence ministry which was holding up proposals as it did not want the private sector to enter the defence production arena, even if no foreign investment was permitted. But, a change of guard at the Centre and the BJP government's push to cut the import bill by allowing private participation in the defence sector seems to have paved the way for a consensus between the ministries, at least on the issue of UAVs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby VinodTK » 04 Oct 2014 19:20

Chinese incursion during Xi Jinping’s visit a mystery, Air chief Arup Raha says
NEW DELHI: The Chinese incursion into Ladakh and the way the episode had coincided with the visit of Chinese President Xi Jinping to India was a "mystery", IAF chief Arup Raha said on Saturday even as he stressed that Indian forces were not yielding any ground at the border.

"It's been always a mystery the way incursions take place and the way they get timed with various visits ... It's nothing new, it remains a mystery for all of us.

"You all know that in diplomacy a lot of signalling is done, especially so with our northern neighbour. It could be part of some signalling to my mind. But I am not going to guess what it really means," he told reporters at an interaction ahead of Indian Air Force's 82nd anniversary celebrations on October 8.

However, making it clear that India was "not giving ground to anyone", Raha blamed the frequent face-offs between Indian and Chinese troops along the line of actual control (LAC) on differences of perception between the two countries over the actual position.

An Indian Army officer keeping vigil near the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh. (TOI file photo)
"There are differences in perception as to where the LAC is ... This is leading to face-offs. However, our security forces are following policies ... We are not giving ground to anyone," he said.

Meanwhile, referring to the measures being taken to build military infrastructure along the border with China, Raha said that a fighter aircraft base is coming up at Nyoma in Ladakh, but added that the project would take about five years to be completed.

Another base would come up in Kargil, he said, adding that the funds will be released soon for it.

"These bases are strategically important for us and will improve our capabilities," he said.

Upgrade of six airfields in the northeast is also being carried out and the work will be completed by the end of 2015.

That would allow air force to operate fixed wing aircraft from there for swifter force mobilization, Raha said.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shrinivasan » 07 Oct 2014 12:15

This is probably the most logical place to post it...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Choppergate-effect-Upgraded-Mi-17-V5s-to-ferry-President-PM/articleshow/44552856.cms?
IAF is going to deploy upgraded Mi-17V5s to ferry VVIPs, now the three AW101s will become hangar queens just like the multitude of their predecessors which were procured by Mr Gandhi decades ago and left to rust away in Juhu Aerodrome... Great job Congress...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 07 Oct 2014 13:09

IAF Mirage-2000 upgrade updates

October 06, 2014: By December, HAL will receive two newly upgraded and certified IAF Mirage 2000 jets, the first of nearly fifty aircraft to be souped up as part of a $2.2 billion deal. Starting next year, HAL's licensed upgrade technology will be in place from Dassault Aviation and Thales Systems to begin upgrading the remaining Mirages to the Dash-5 standard for the eager IAF.
...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 07 Oct 2014 13:24

hope they manage to put some people in jailtime for wasting nearly half a billion $$ of precious public money on these unused hulks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 07 Oct 2014 14:02

The norm would be a promotion + a nice raise.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 07 Oct 2014 15:58

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 1007000096
India develops P1 drone to monitor Chinese border movements
Staff Reporter 2014-10-07
To monitor Chinese maneuvers in its border regions, India has recently designed its first low-altitude long-endurance drone, writes Ankit Panda, associate editor of the Tokyo-based Diplomat in a piece published on Oct. 2.

Panda said the drone, known as the P1, is expected to have a flight time of over 10 hours at a maximum altitude of 5,000 feet with an operating radius of 150 kilometers. It has been designed to help the Indian military monitor its borders against potential Pakistani and Chinese incursions. In addition to its military applications, the drone can be used for applications such as pollution monitoring and crowd control.

India has become a crucial partner of the United States in its Asia Pivot policy. In his article titled "The Pivot to India" written for Foreign Policy, Senator John McCain said the India-US strategic partnership is critical to encourage China to rise peacefully rather than try to change the status quo unilaterally and with coercion.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Oct 2014 16:26

Philip wrote:http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20141007000096
India develops P1 drone to monitor Chinese border movements
Staff Reporter 2014-10-07
To monitor Chinese maneuvers in its border regions, India has recently designed its first low-altitude long-endurance drone, writes Ankit Panda, associate editor of the Tokyo-based Diplomat in a piece published on Oct. 2.

Panda said the drone, known as the P1, is expected to have a flight time of over 10 hours at a maximum altitude of 5,000 feet with an operating radius of 150 kilometers. It has been designed to help the Indian military monitor its borders against potential Pakistani and Chinese incursions. In addition to its military applications, the drone can be used for applications such as pollution monitoring and crowd control.

India has become a crucial partner of the United States in its Asia Pivot policy. In his article titled "The Pivot to India" written for Foreign Policy, Senator John McCain said the India-US strategic partnership is critical to encourage China to rise peacefully rather than try to change the status quo unilaterally and with coercion.


P1 = Pawan = Panchi ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby merlin » 07 Oct 2014 18:15

Thakur_B wrote:
P1 = Pawan = Panchi ?


That doesn't have a 10 hour endurance nor a max altitude of only 5000 feet. Nishant has about 3 to 4 hours of endurance and merely an undercarriage won't double it I think.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28797 » 07 Oct 2014 18:44

Philip wrote:http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=11&id=20141007000096
India develops P1 drone to monitor Chinese border movements
Staff Reporter 2014-10-07
[/quote]

Never heard of P1 before, is this news genuine or planted?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ravip » 07 Oct 2014 18:51


ravip
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ravip » 08 Oct 2014 11:17

Just 15min back saw a low flying white aircraft heading towards hal airport, which also had light bule colour engines & was very similar to embraer or gulf stream. If it is the first one than it may be delivery of last awec from Brazil or if is the second one than it may be of raw or it may be pvt also, but it had no gizmos attached below or over it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shrinivasan » 08 Oct 2014 12:17

MOD AR 2013-14 talks about the signing of the contract for another 6 C130J-30s. This is the first time I am seeing an official confirmation on this, Does anyone have any information on when these 6 would be delivered? Also are we replacing the C130J which crashed?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby merlin » 08 Oct 2014 14:05

6 new of the 2nd batch were ordered. 1 more was ordered separately to replace the once that crashed.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 08 Oct 2014 18:20

A squadron number focused IAF should re consider the concept?

Indian Air Force in the age of Unmanned, Hypersonic, Intelligent, Stealthy, and CPGS world

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28580 » 08 Oct 2014 19:48

Indian Air Force

Indian Air Force in the age of Unmanned, Hypersonic, Intelligent, Stealthy, and CPGS world
Recent trends indicates that the warfare in the air and space – aerospace – if one may, is seeing following five characteristic trends

1. Conventional Prompt Global Strike (CPGS) augmenting the nuclear armed Ballistic missiles as a “useable” option as compared to “just threat” but non usable option of nukes
2. Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles emerging as a step-change from the conventional piloted aircraft
3. Hypersonic (speed of 5 times and above of speed of sound) Vehicles, Missiles and Munitions
4. Intelligent munitions, systems and machines
5. Stealthy systems and platforms

Key Messages
Indian Air Force in its 82 years of existence has not faced such technological and strategic challenges that it is going to face in next two decades and beyond.

We have characterized these as 5 dimensional. The air war that we envisage will be more unmanned, more hypersonic, more intelligent, more stealthy and demanding prompt conventional global strike.

A force structure based on only increasing the number of fighter squadrons to meet the above disruptive or revolutionary challenges is a recipe bound to fail. We propose an integrated roadmap on these five dimensions will be of essence for the IAF.

http://frontierindia.net/indian-air-for ... cpgs-world

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28580 » 08 Oct 2014 19:51

chackojoseph wrote:A squadron number focused IAF should re consider the concept?

Indian Air Force in the age of Unmanned, Hypersonic, Intelligent, Stealthy, and CPGS world


Just saw Joseph has already posted!

Nevertheless - look forward to comments


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