Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Jan 2015 06:49

Victor wrote:Brar ji, if you look lower down on that page you will see this:
Like the GSP, the GISP is also in effect for almost all of the C-17’s international operators. India, a GSP customer, is the lone exception.

Yes it is a custom government partnership and like I explained each customer is free to craft its own contract based on what it wants but the scope of services offered are covered in both programs with the customer eventually deciding what it wants and what it doesn't (wants to do in house). Any customer that does not wish to sustain the C-17 more like a commercial airliner can choose to go "traditional" and order spares through the legacy channels, and develop an organic depot and sustainment capability. In the end it comes down to cost and most if not all customers see some value in going in for these commercial processes.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 14 Jan 2015 11:12

nik wrote:^ Simple answer - We cannot start a war with anyone period. We can only defend ourselves until our FOREX goes to empty.

With Pakis -American/European supply chain is suspect
With China - Russian supply chain is suspect
And rest assured - All of our foreign suppliers will screw us up on 'emergency' supply pricing.

All this offensive talk, cold start and all using imported Rafale, FGFA, M777, Apache and other maal is 100% BS (except for republic day parade strutting). Reality is that we can barely defend period given our import addiction for 2~3 months until availability nose dives, and then back to running for help to US or Russia.

Only China/US/Russia can muster and sustain a war because they 'really' want to fight a war and are dead serious about it.

One can simply stock enough spares to fight the war as long as required. It's only a matter of money. All the rona dhona about strategic independence is nonsense. Assume India has absolute strategic independence over weapons. What about oil ? What about the economy and the INR ? China might be in a better position but is hardly in the same league as the US and Russia. They're dependent for a majority of their energy while Russia isn't. It would be far more productive to talk about what our scenarios for fighting wars are and then talk about requirements and independence required to fight those. If we don't plan to fight for more than a month, the most we need is a month of spares/oil/political clout to be as independent as we want to be.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Jan 2015 01:20

so with the swiss Franc caps lifted whats going to happen to the next batch of pilatus orders

Shukla must be readying his next article in glee

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Jan 2015 04:45

Surya wrote:so with the swiss Franc caps lifted whats going to happen to the next batch of pilatus orders

Wouldn't we have hedged Swiss Franc when we signed the deal? Pilatus will also be hurting from the possible loss of future orders from others as will all Swiss exporters, so it remains to be seen what they will do. It's a given that IAF will blame HAL for unnecessarily causing a delay in the order if there is any meaningful price increase.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Jan 2015 06:36

somehow I doubt we would have hedged

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 16 Jan 2015 08:29

PM Modi to inaugurate Aero India 2015

PM in air show
Prime Minister Narendra Modi will inaugurate Aero India 2015, the biennial air show hosted by the Defence Ministry in the country’s aviation hub Bangalore.
The Prime Minister’s presence has already electrified the organisers as it has boosted the response from the leading aviation companies of the world.
The highlight of the air show, to be held next month, will be the “Make in India” summit in which bigwigs of the global aviation industry are likely to participate.
This is the first time the event will be inaugurated by the Prime Minister.
For the aviation enthusiasts, the show will have number of aerobatic teams from abroad. The show till now was inaugurated by the Defence Minister but the bar has been raised now.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jan 2015 17:53

RIP sir. Will make a rare exception and post this inlink image, for Gp Captain Kapil Bhargava. An officer and a gentleman.

By AVM Rajeev Hora
Commandant ASTE

Evening of 18 December, while trying to reach his son Kishore, I rang up Gp Capt Kapil Bhargava’s mobile number by mistake and I heard an all too familiar voice telling me that the subscriber was out of reach! Well, he sure was this time and probably reaching for the stars on a second WW biplane! We had just come back home after performing the last rites for Retd Gp Capt Kapil Bhargava VM who left for his heavenly abode on the 17th of December 2014.

But somehow, as we traced our feet back to our homes a few utterings overheard during the funeral still hung in the air- We have lost an icon! End of an era! The Grand old man of Flight Testing! We probably don’t realize what we have lost today! So loving, so humble! And all of it was so very true as every Tester (as Test pilots and Flight Test Engineers are fondly known as), in town wanted to be there at that moment which actually never felt like mourning but a final celebration of an extraordinary life!

The same day obituary in the Times of India read ‘A brief period of illness ended a remarkable life, lived to the fullest, centred on others and the Indian Air Force’! What a way to capture the lifetime of probably the greatest aviation enthusiast and Tester the country has ever produced! A flyer-writer who was our link to the past, a man who regaled us with the adventures of yore and had always an amazing story to tell! The Devons, the Liberators, the Spitfires and so many other ac of that vintage used to suddenly come to life in his presence!

Although 1994 was the first time I came across Gp Capt Bhargava, I learnt from the old timers that he was a permanent feature as a Guest Lecturer in the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment, the flight test establishment of the IAF, despite his retirement from the Air Force in 1976. No training course was considered really complete without his talk on flight-testing which had all the elements of a Chuck Yeager autobiography! Well he sure was our very own Chuck Yeager! I still remember going back home rather despondent after attending his talk as to why I was subjecting myself to the horrors of the ‘stability and control’ précis whereas this old man could so easily ‘guestimate’ the same by having one distant look at the inadequate size of the fin of the Ajeet trainer prototype taxiing out!

Well, he was indeed good at guessing! We all were aware of his frail health this season as he refused many a social invitation. But this time when he gave me a call from the hospital, he made a specific mention that he had passed my phone number to his family members, just in case they required any sort of help. His premonition or guess was spot-on and the he really did not recover from the high-risk surgery that the doctors had advised!

Gp Capt Bhargava’s father was an ICS officer in the British Raj days and he spent his childhood in Bulandshahar and Gorakhpur. The aviation bug bit him rather early in life and he was commissioned in Oct 1950 in the 53rd Pilots Course. He flew Spitfires and Vampires before attending the Empire Test Pilots School in UK to graduate as one of India’s pioneer test pilots.

In his test flying career with the IAF, besides production test flying, he flew the first flights of the HAL Pushpak, the HS-748 ‘Avro’ and the Messerschmitt HA 300 Fighter designed by Egypt. The first flight of the HS-748 earned him one of the first Vayusena Medals awarded to the IAF – in 1962. He was also the first commandant of ASTE (then A&ATU) and served as the Station Commander of Jodhpur. After his career in the Air Force, he was with the Flight Safety Directorate of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in Bangalore before retirement.

Gp Capt Bhargava’s long spell in Egypt were full of interesting challenges as he worked with the Egyptian Air Force to build and test fly their own aircraft. His family still remembers how he would fly aerobatics over the Nile river. But the most exciting was the day when he got airborne in the Messerschmitt prototype for the first time. His colleagues took over the ATC and Cairo television broadcast the flight live. It was an intensely emotional for the Egyptians who thanked him repeatedly and in tears!

Apart from that, the greatest number of his entertaining and spellbinding stories were about the No 7 Squadron. Those were probably the years he enjoyed the most, though it’s difficult to choose. His family, friends and acquaintances always thought of him as being synonymous with the Air force. Every waking moment centered on the Air force, long after he left it formally. In truth, he never did leave! His articles kept gracing the pages of publications like Air Forces Monthly, Air Enthusiast, Flypast, Air International and Indian Aviation for many years. His talks in various seminars were pure gold and were so eagerly awaited. His wonderful wife Mohini would often jokingly accuse him of bigamy as aviation was indeed his first love! He also led his daughters Mala and Meena to become so intensely involved in the whole thrilling world of flying at a young age that they would often listen in to flying exercises being executed through a VHF radio!

A keen blogger, he kept himself abreast with the latest technologies till his very last and would often invite youngsters to help him with his IT stuff. Some people also don’t probably know that he was a wonderful statistician and could conduct a two hours extempore class on statistics any time. But more than any other attribute, his will to help out people in need really stood out. One of my last conversations with him was from his hospital bed just three days before his final goodbye when he was desperately struggling with his own deteriorating health wherein he requested me to help sort out the pension papers for the kin of a long departed colleague!

The Indian aviation world is indeed a lesser place in his absence. We at ASTE are so happy that we were able to confer the first ‘Life Time Achievement in Flight Testing’ award to him just a few months before his demise. No one deserved it more to be the first recipient! ! He was indeed a very happy man, a learned man, a very kind man and a truly great man!

They don’t make aviators and gentlemen like him anymore! It is said that a man stops feeling immortal when he loses his parents!
Suddenly the world of flight-testing seems mortal and we know why!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jan 2015 23:08

5th-gen jet, mini missile on agenda as Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoygu heads to Delhi

A few observations:
* No mention of MTA?
* FGFA is still under a cloud?
* The Kamov offer still under discussion

* India feels a full fledged R&D is not required? News for sure. I would think it to be the opposite. ??????

NEW DELHI: Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoygu will arrive here tomorrow on a three-day visit to hold talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar and review the ongoing cooperation and future prospects in the crucial sector.

During the talks, the Russian side is expected to raise the issue of the much-delayed joint production of a Fifth- Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and BrahMos mini-missile.

It is also expected to discuss Russian President Vladimir Putin's offer last month to produce the 'Kamov' military helicopters in India, among other things.

The question of a possible lease of a second nuclear submarine from Russia could also come up in the meeting that is being held just days ahead of US President Barack Obama's visit to the country.

Currently, India operates an 8,140-tonne Akula Class submarine -- renamed the INS Chakra -- which was leased in 2011 from Russia for a period of 10 years.

The issues would feature as part of discussions as the two counterparts chair the 13th meeting of the Russian-Indian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC).

"The two ministers will review the progress made so far and the future scope," defence sources said.

One of the most important deals in the works between India and Russia at present is the FGFA. A Russian team was in the national capital last month to discuss the deal and iron out any differences.

India has said that the basic prototype of the plane is already flying and the Indian version had just a few variations, hence a full-fledged R&D contract would be a waste of time and resources, official sources said. {???????????}

The preliminary design agreement on the FGFA had been signed in 2010 between HAL and the Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau to build the jet for use by both countries.

But the final R&D contract, which was to be signed by 2012, is still to be finalised. The contract would pave the way for prototype development and flight testing.

Russia is also expected to push for a key deal for the joint development of a BrahMos 'mini missile'. However, sources said that a tripartite agreement in this regard is unlikely to be signed between DRDO, NPOM lab of Russia and BrahMos Aerospace.

The Russian Minister will also be visiting the BrahMos aerospace centre in the national capital.

The mini missile will have a speed of Mach 3.5 and can carry a payload of 300-kg up to a range of 290-km. In terms of size, it will be about half that of the present missile, which is around 10-metres long.

..........................................................

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Jan 2015 23:52

NRao wrote:
During the talks, the Russian side is expected to raise the issue of the much-delayed joint production of a Fifth- Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

India has said that the basic prototype of the plane is already flying and the Indian version had just a few variations, hence a full-fledged R&D contract would be a waste of time and resources,

Joint development has already become joint-production so indeed paying 10s of billions for joint tech development would indeed be waste of resource.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Jan 2015 09:01

Cross-posting the discussion from the LCA thread:

Shreeman wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:I think the whole requirement for the in-flight refueling requirement for the LCA stems from the argument that the IAF wants to have the option for it, should the need arise. Does not mean, however, that they will be using it a lot.

Especially given a pathetically small tanker fleet, there is never going to be the luxury of refueling every fighter over the front-line. But if required, the LCA should have that option, no?

In-flight refueling is not just for ferrying flights at long ranges. It is possible that the aircraft engaged in combat and evasive maneuvers might be low on fuel even a couple hundred kilometers from the airbase. In flight refueling gives the pilot and air-force some options in that scenario.

But I do agree that it should be lower down the priority list. Certainly not enough to justify delaying the induction of the aircraft.

-Vivek
vivek,

My nitpick is the reverse.

The aircraft are plumbed for refueling and getting refueled. Heavy forward deployed tankers are needed for expeditionary campaigns. Otherwise, for your scenario a few Su30 with refueling pods will serve the role fine.

This shortage of il78 type tankers does not envision where they will be used and when. There is not a lot beyond 500km west. Certainly very little beyond 750km. So except for ferrying to far-off exercises, the role for the light aircraft just doesnt warrant X,000 km range. But that is a separate discussion.

My nitpick is, if needed, there are 300 tankers with refueling pods.

My two cents on the buddy-tanker concept is that it is NOT a viable replacement for a dedicated tanker. For every Su-30 that is tasked as a tanker, it is one less shooter available to the air-force. Not only that, the amount of fuel it can transfer is only sufficient for one, perhaps two refuelings. It can also not refuel larger aircraft. And so you need a three Su-30 tankers supporting a strike Su-30 for the same effect as one dedicated tanker plus one Su-30.

Buddy tanking may have been a viable strategy (albeit a necessary one rather than a preferred one) for carrier operations. But land-based air-forces should not use that as excuse NOT to have a decent tanker fleet.

My two cents onlee.

-Vivek

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Jan 2015 14:13

Vivek,

The additional flight of 6 that may some day be purchased by India takes numbers to your back of the envelop calculations.

But I am intrepreting two things to reach my conclusions, that are different from yours.
1. There is no will or plan for expeditionary warfare in India. It is not a strategic goal for any of the three forces and there is no political will for it.
2. Combat ranges are assumed to be in the 1,000ish or less range. Anything farther is in the ballistic category.

Given this, the number of su30s, 29ks and 29s available AS A CONTINGENCY, heck the C130s might even have drogues, they sure have probes, and the flight of 6, the number of tankers is not a constraint.

There is no big din for tankers because having tried out the facility, and the long legs of the 30s, decent legs in 29s and 2000s, and roles assigned to 21/27s there is no real urgency to tankers.

They will come as squads of LCAs join. Perhaps.

Would it be bad to have more tankers in the mix? No. It would be good.

But as things stand, and the 270+100ish(30s + 29/29ks) buddy capable aircraft around, testing refueling strategies for LCAs is not hostage to new tankers. They need not task an IL78, a 30 will demonstrate it with the LCA just the same.

My nitpick is not against acquiring additional tankers. It is against those who bring up the number 6 to claim as if it was holding back devrlopment of operational paradigms or LCA testing.

The LCA will have gotten its plumbing complete by AI. I suppose they will want to show it off attached. It was to arrive in January, wasnt it? Thrn like the LCH TD2 there will be a fancy first flight and this will all be behind us.

In the bigger scheme of things, A&N is as far as the birds fly. As long as they go back and forth fine, the tankers can come when they are budgeted. The buddy is an effective jugaad. The 21s cant use it, but the LCA will not be similarly shortchanged in a contingency.

As you noted, the total number of heavy tankers is less than 20. You forecast another 10 or so as reasonable. This could certainly be taken care of by a squad of 30s instead. They take 8t+internal fuel. Should be good enough for 3 or more LCAs per 30. Thats not too shabby. Not TFTA, but not shabby jugaad either.

There are pressing needs re. numbers. So I am not shouting for more tankers over more squads of LCAs. If its one or the other.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jan 2015 19:00

To maintain awacs and jstars planes airborne for extended periods alone demands large tankers

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Jan 2015 19:24

We need about 20 mid size fuelers and about 10 large fuelers that can fuel il-76/C17/Embrarer type fully. It might be easy to fuel the large awacs type on ground though. It will take a long time in air to fully tank up.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 20 Jan 2015 19:31

Shreeman, as long as you are within the geographical boundaries, and do not need to re-arm you can run a pretty smooth operation by doing a combination of mid-air refueling and Hot pit refueling and distributing the latter capability to air-bases that needn't support other functions for the fighter types. A pretty effective way of reducing the wait times when you have aircraft lining up for gas. Although I may not recall the exact figures but the US Marines average about 40 minutes turn around time with some types (USAF) going as quickly as 10-15 minutes for a hot refuel vs about 80-100+ minutes for the alternatives. If you are within the geographical boundaries with a limited divert, you may actually save time as opposed to flying off to a tanker, waiting in line and receiving the gas in certain situations. From touch down to take off, you could probably turnaround an LCA (6000-7000 pounds of fuel) in under 30 minutes if you have a well trained crew and a hot pit refuel may make more sense in situations where you do not need to have reserve fuel to fly to a tanker and wait for a turn.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Jan 2015 23:40

I was reading quite a few papers on aircraft modifications during testing and chanced upon a paper describing the modifications required from Hawk to Goshawk called: HAwk to Goshaek. Navalizing a Land-based Trainer Aircraft

The navalization (landing gear, airbrakes, tail hook, ventral strake, engines) lead to weight gain, which lead to the same problems as is being reported on the IJT. The wing-drop became much faster than what can be accepted on a trainer and the elevator stalled when the flaps were all the way down. After a lot of testing the result that they came up with:
1. The original Hawk itself has a problem with the rate of onset of stall and rate of wing drop. Therefore the land-based trainer uses a wing fence and breaker strip which gives acceptable mitigation. With the weight gain in the navalized version, these were not sufficient. So the designers deleted those modifications, and added a full length slat which (had to be accompanied with modified wingtips). Vortex generators were added to the outboard part of the wing (if the stall stall starts at the wingtip, the lever arm is longer and the wing drop is much faster).
2. Adding of a fixed strake (called SMURF) just ahead and below the horizontal stab. This acts like a canard when the horizontal elevator is deflected downwards. They had to do this because on the Hawk, the elevator is all-moving. The span of the elevator was also increased slightly.

For the IJT:
1. Weight gain is a terrible thing for spin recovery (Interested guys can read about 'The Tiger Moth Story'). So the weight reduction program will go a great way in providing better spin recovery.
2. I wonder if it is still worthwhile to go for a full length slat. The wing of the IJT is more amenable to a full length slat. The vortex generators can be added to the outboard section. Alternatively, the wingspan can be slightly increased without changing the taper ratio and adding a few more degrees to the twist.
2. IJT doesn't have a all-moving tail like Hawk, so a possible solution for IJT is the addition of a sharp LERX (called spin-strakes) to the horizontal stabilizer. This again takes us back to the Tiger Moth example. Only the heavier Tiger moths which were modified to carry bombs needed (and greatly benefited) from this.

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 21 Jan 2015 06:31

If I remember it correctly, pressure filling system was implemented in one of the later LSPs.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 375777.cms

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jan 2015 07:05

The number of refuelers we might need should be calculated on the basis of wars we are likely to have to fight, the ranges and flying times of aircraft in such a conflict. All numbers become guesswork without such background information.

For example how many refuelers would we need if we decided to capture Australia? Or if we decided that China should be hit from the east. Compare that with local wars within 500 km of the Indian borders.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Jan 2015 07:28

+1
Shiv pretty spot on.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 21 Jan 2015 11:53

shiv,

It is difficult to envision expeditionary warfare. East of china is a can of worms if you dont base in vietnam. And given that selling vietnam a boat is considered out of question, there is really no point in the fantasy of a war on china from the east. Recognize Taiwan as a country first.

Overall, India doesnt have far off enemies, or has forgiven misdeeds in far off lands. The north east development plan is a far better plan than any other look east approach. And in the west, all problems reside in punjab alone. If ever the 500 mile battle is won, and there arent any nukes within 500miles/west then one can broaden the horizons.

For this generation of men and machines 500 miles out is already herculean. If they can get to 4 LHD, and 2 IAC, and 45 squads, it would be major miracle. The numerical parity with china in air and naval assets is the only way to make china see sense. The credible deterrence bullshit never carried any weight outside TOIlet types.

6x200+M $$ == squads of LCA at 25M$.

My 2p.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Jan 2015 12:57

^ It seems GISP is run by USAF, not Boeing which is still a significant part of it, and India is the only Globemaster customer (the biggest outside US) that didn't take it.

Errr.. I thought we are under the GISP frame work

Boeing is supporting the IAF aircraft through the Globemaster III Integrated Sustainment Program (GISP) Performance-Based Logistics contract. The GISP “virtual fleet” arrangement ensures mission readiness by providing all C-17 customers access to an extensive support network for worldwide parts availability and economies of scale.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2013-07-22- ... master-III

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 23 Jan 2015 22:19

What gifts will Obama bring to India (Rediff)

Terrible headline, because it sounds like our gift to Obama. More gold-plated stuff in our wishlist. Are we just going to hand over 80% of our capital budget to them? All this while we squabble over whether HAL should pony up the $250M for LCA production facilities or the IAF should.

*Global Hawk ($100M each)
*Triton ($100M each)
*Chinooks ($66M each)
*Apache ($63M each)
*RQ-11 Raven UAV
+ More C-17s, P-8Is

/rant off

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 27 Jan 2015 05:15

Info on HF-24 Marut and other oldies of IAF in Team-BHP.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jan 2015 05:47

Nikhil T wrote:What gifts will Obama bring to India (Rediff)

Terrible headline, because it sounds like our gift to Obama. More gold-plated stuff in our wishlist. Are we just going to hand over 80% of our capital budget to them? All this while we squabble over whether HAL should pony up the $250M for LCA production facilities or the IAF should.

*Global Hawk ($100M each)
*Triton ($100M each)
*Chinooks ($66M each)
*Apache ($63M each)
*RQ-11 Raven UAV
+ More C-17s, P-8Is

/rant off

Outright purchases:
Cat I:

- P-8I (4 more, funded?), C-17 (14 more, but no funds), C-130J (7 more, funded)

Cat II:

- From previous GoI:
- Chinooks, Apaches (proposed to increase the numbers)

- Recent rumblings:
- Global Hawk (IA), Triton (IN)

DTTI framework, co-dev, co-prod, exportable:

Proposed:
- Javelin, Raven UAV, the C-130 roll-on/off project, EMALS, a naval gun, etc

- Perhaps some collab on IN carrier, military engine

Indians were expected to propose 5 technologies of interest (across the services + labs). Looks like 2 of those 5 are the last bullet.

Very recent reports had stated that the AMCA was tested at a US based wind tunnel. Not sure if it is considered to be part of the DTTI effort, but the US has offered sharing "stealth" tech/info/whatever.

Lit (multiple) states all this without strings attached.

Yes, true, pricy. This gov is expecting to pay for anything (Def or social or structural) via bettering the economy. FinMin recently, at Davos, stated he expects eco to chug along at 9+%.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Jan 2015 06:19

I really think we should prioritize our spendings. It is good for both the US and India. we can't buy them all, so get what we can truly pay for.

Get the:
1. C-17s because we won't be able to buy them later,
2. P-8Is
3. C-130Js,
4. Chinooks, and
5. Global Hawks.

Don't get the:
1. Ravens. There is no urgent need and equivalents are in development by student groups, private and public industry.
2. Javelins. Instead pay top dollar for whatever is the missing part of man-portable Nag.
3. Apaches. They cost twice as much as an LCH, and 2 LCHs can carry as much as an Apache.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2015 07:53

I would drop the chinooks as well unless the small number of Mi26T are imminent EOL and there are essential loads (not M777) the Mi17v cannot handle .
use the chinook cash for the SH60 which is a clear and urgent need to replace the aeging sea kings.
Cheen has setup a plant for Mi17v with more powerful engines than the model we use, we can explore getting this engine onto older Mi17v and new orders.

instead of global hawks which will anyways not come with the best sensors and Rustom HALE is under work, get the Triton for the IN to supplement the poseidons.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 27 Jan 2015 08:04

instead of global hawks which will anyways not come with the best sensors and Rustom HALE is under work, get the Triton for the IN to supplement the poseidons

The Triton has equally capable, if not superior sensors and capability to the Global Hawk. The AN/ZPY-3 is a 360 degree AESA that can operate both over the ocean, littorals and land. The MRTIP-sensor is an AESA as well, and shares its heritage with the E-10 Research and Development effort that was cancelled a few years ago. Both are of similar generation designed around a different mission. Depending upon what the IAF or IN may wish to use this in, there is no guarantee that the IAF or IN would pick these sensors as they could well pick a different sensor mix. The Block 40, has been cleared and is being marketed for export. If the Europeans decide to re-visit the Eurohawk (which some media reports are suggesting) then you can combine sensors from both projects, but there is nothing stopping the export of either of the two variants or a hybrid variant that takes a different sensor mix to what the USAF or the USN may find appropriate for the type of mission it has planned for the system.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2015 08:53

what I meant was we already have certain level of sensors and radars on the P8I, so can be assured of atleast that level with the Triton. and these two would form a very good tag team , relieving the poseidon airframes of much of the deep ocean surveillance mission and letting them focus on interesting areas and ASW.

with the Ghawk, firstly khan has been loading it up with classified kit like 'hyperspectral imagers' that can see into jihadi houses, IED detecters using SAR map comparators to detect dug up earth patches and surely SIGINT and imaging payloads far above the export threshold. there is real guarantee they will supply us JSTARS level gmti sensors or any great imaging sensor......its a very costly product so better to spend hard earned drachmas on triton methinks and rush the Rustom into service asap........

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 27 Jan 2015 15:02

Latest News - IAF MIG27crashes near Barmer. Pilot bailed out in time.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 Jan 2015 17:41

Thank god the pilot bailed out. Good news for Tejas as anyways after about 5 years the MIG27 would have self-deinducted and the Rafale negotiations will be ongoing then too.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jan 2015 22:11

Not military related, hwoever .......................

Lives (and loves) of India’s wealthiest

Private jets proliferate

The ultimate status symbol, private jets are a must-have accessory for India’s high flyers. Indian consumers constitute 12% of the global private jet market, according to consulting firm Frost & Sullivan. According to statistics provided by Ravinder Kaur, manager of corporate communications for Frost & Sullivan's South Asia region, wealthy Indians own a total of 142 private jets — ranging from $4.5m light jets to $310m heavy jets. Owners include top business barons such as brothers Mukesh and Anil Ambani, Vijay Mallya, Lakshmi Mittal, Ratan Tata, and Gautam Singhania.

Canadian business jet maker Bombardier expects to deliver 1,215 jets to India between 2014 and 2033. “The current generation of Indian billionaires fully realises the benefits of using a private jet,” said Atiesh Mishra, general manager, flight operations at Taj Air, a Mumbai-based air charter company. “For India’s ultra-high-net-worth individuals, time is of great importance. A private aircraft also affords them privacy and the flexibility of making their own schedules.” (Gautam Singhania/SajjadHussain/Getty Images)

A rather large market, one that Indians themselves should get into. That works out to be about 63 jets (from Bombardier alone) per year!!!!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Jan 2015 14:36

^^^ N Rao ji, replied in the Civil Aviation thread in the Technology & Economic forum.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 28 Jan 2015 18:48

Modified HJT-36 Sitara to fly in 15 days.
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/560438179845513216

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Jan 2015 19:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vqi9jdBCUc

IAF view on Red Flag with direct quotes as versus that twit Fornof

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 28 Jan 2015 20:56

HAL’s in-house pet [is IAF listening ] BTA HTT-40 will fly mid-2015. Metal-cutting done. http://bit.ly/1uAXmhg

4:37 PM - 28 Jan 2015

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2015 22:18

I think 2 more Ecuadorian helicopters have crashed in the last 2 weeks. Wonder what is going wrong there. HAL should invest time into this before the image is tarnished forever. Also, India will do well for its reputation to replace those 4 helis lost by Ecuador even if it is ascribed to pilot error. A few Dhruvs are not worth the reputation when we are trying to launch ourselves into the export market.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 29 Jan 2015 00:01

4 out of 7 Ecuadorian Dhruvs have been lost in 5 years. Replacing them is not going to be enough even if Ecuador accepts them:

India’s ‘Dhruv’ Helicopter falls under the Scanner as Ecuador Expresses Dissatisfaction

India’s flagship defence export, the ‘Dhruv’ Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), has come under the scanner once again as Ecuador has claimed that these choppers are becoming a cause for concern due to poor after sales service, expensive spares and even over-invoicing. The critical shortcomings are directed at state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) by Ecuador which is the biggest overseas customer of ‘Dhruv’ ALH.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Jan 2015 00:12

No need to subsidies Dhruv export. Hal has 350 nos on order/delivered to Indian defence forces with more orders to follow.

Better privatize HAL and let it compete in International market.

Given the work culture in a PSU you just cant compete.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2015 03:01

Victor wrote:4 out of 7 Ecuadorian Dhruvs have been lost in 5 years. Replacing them is not going to be enough even if Ecuador accepts them:

India’s ‘Dhruv’ Helicopter falls under the Scanner as Ecuador Expresses Dissatisfaction
India’s flagship defence export, the ‘Dhruv’ Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), has come under the scanner once again as Ecuador has claimed that these choppers are becoming a cause for concern due to poor after sales service, expensive spares and even over-invoicing. The critical shortcomings are directed at state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) by Ecuador which is the biggest overseas customer of ‘Dhruv’ ALH.

That news article actually sources its quotes from Dawn.

But something is going wrong in Ecuador. Environmental conditions? Training? Parts? The govt. and HAL should investigate this thoroughly and take every step to mitigate the problems. It should not be that difficult. ALHs elsewhere are functioning beautifully.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2015 07:06

^^
Probably incompetent pilots.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Jan 2015 10:03

Is there a worldwide helicopter crash database? I couldn't find anything. Would be interesting to see how many helicopters Ecuador has owned in last 50 years and what their average lifespan is before crashing.