Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 29 Jan 2015 10:29

The Mig-27 mentioned above crashed on a bike. The rider was distributing his wedding invitation cards and escaped with a fractured hand and minor burns.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jan 2015 18:22

Any exporter of mil eqpt. will take the Ecuadorean crashes v. seriously as it will completely destroy the reputation of the ALH/Dhruv. It's easy to say orders for the Indian armed forces are good enough,after all the attitude is "who cares a sh*t if Indian pilots are killed"! HAL did bugg*r all when its fables basic trainer killed over 2 doz pilots of the IAF and is still touting its paper plane ,ok metal model now,as opposed to the Pilatus which is in service world over with an outstanding record. Even iof the HTT_40 flies next year,how long will it take for it to be fully tested and commissioned and then produced at what rate/yr?

The IJT also has a lot of testing to be done and if it does not fit the bill,then we'll have to import an alternative.Shoving down the IAF's throat an inferior product will be resisted forcefully ,as it has done in the past.Pilots' lives are at stake,not the heads of HAL.

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Jan 2015 18:33

@cybaru .. flightglobal has a database of all military aircraft accidents

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Jan 2015 18:34

i would have a second look at the simulator training for Dhruv !! .. any details on the certification process for Dhruv

srin · Post by **srin** » 29 Jan 2015 18:52

shiv wrote:^^
Probably incompetent pilots.

For the sake of Dhruv's reputation, I sure hope so, but we can't jump to that conclusion. This would be similar to Russia brushing off Sukhoi accidents as "incompetent pilots" instead of looking at design issues with ejection seats etc.

If there is a design issue, it will affect our own pilots of IAF and IA who fly it. So, I'm hoping we take this really really seriously and investigate what went wrong with an open mind.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 29 Jan 2015 19:14

The Dhruv Mk1 had gearbox issues that led to category 1 accidents, that the Airforce wasn't very happy about, not because the problem remained unidentified, but because HAL wasn't fixing it fast enough.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Jan 2015 19:26

indranilroy wrote:Also, India will do well for its reputation to replace those 4 helis lost by Ecuador even if it is ascribed to pilot error.

Absolutely not, why shall HAL put it's money to fix Ecuadorian incompetence ??? If they can't train their pilots properly then is it HAL's fault ??? Dhruv's are flying in India which presents one of the toughest climatic conditions to any military gear without falling from the sky. Dhruv has proved itself in Indian climate, that is enough for good marketing. Let's wait and see what does the crash investigation brings out.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 29 Jan 2015 19:55

Summary of Ecuadorian Dhruv Helos that crashed

The 1st lost on 28 October 2009,FAE-604: Pilot Error, no fatalities
The 2nd on 22 February 2014,FAE-601 : 3 Fatalities , 1 injured
The 3rd on 13 January 2015,FAE- 603 : Training Mission , no fatalities
The 4th on 27 January 2015, FAE- 605: Training Mission , no fatalities

from this link http://www.telegrafo.com.ec/noticias/in ... -tena.html

About Latest two crashes
14 JAN 2015
Military survived Dhruv helicopter crash in Chongón

A Accident Investigation Board was formed to establish the causes of the fall of a Dhruv helicopter belonging to the Ecuadorian Air Force (FAE), which occurred at about 16:45 yesterday Chongón dam at km. 26 of the road to the coast.

The ECU-911 Samborondón confirmed via his Twitter account that the accident was not injured.

The FAE issued a statement in which he said that the accident occurred while the aircraft "serving a training mission."

Fishermen at that time worked at the site witnessed the accident and came to the aid of the two occupants of the aircraft, whose identities were not disclosed.

Luis Cedeño, one of the fishermen, said that "we were arriving at the dam and we put the meshes when we saw it (the helicopter) fell. There I was fast in the canoe. We rescued two people. "

The statement says that once FAE reported the accident, "immediately System Search and Rescue aircraft and its occupants, who have no medical problems was activated. However, they are under observation to rule out any problems. "

Up to press time the entry was not allowed to Park Lake and access to the scene remained restricted.

Meanwhile, the Ministry of Water in a bulletin reported that after the helicopter crash "gave every facility for rescue teams arrive at the scene ... activate the protocol that provides ongoing analysis of samples of raw water quality "in order to detect if there was any contamination.

Similarly, the agency noted that "the withdrawal of the helicopter with the relevant authorities will coordinate".

27/01/2015 Report
Dhruv helicopter crashed in Tena

A helicopter DHRUV 605 of the Ecuadorian Air Force (FAE ) crashed in the city of Tena, Napo province . The fall of the aircraft would have occurred in Sector Operations Center (SOC ) No. 2, near 11:45 .

Through a statement, the FAE said the accident occurred while the helicopter took off from the helipad of COS to move to Guayaquil.

The crew consisted of 2 pilots and 2 technicians who are stable and medical care.

The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA ) indentificó- to your account Twitter- crew as two captains and two sergeants , who were taken to the local hospital .

The FAE said has formed an Accident Investigation Board to determine the cause of the accident .

Total 8 supplied till date with FAE-604 replacement.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jan 2015 20:11

srin wrote:
shiv wrote:^^
Probably incompetent pilots.
For the sake of Dhruv's reputation, I sure hope so, but we can't jump to that conclusion. This would be similar to Russia brushing off Sukhoi accidents as "incompetent pilots" instead of looking at design issues with ejection seats etc.

If there is a design issue, it will affect our own pilots of IAF and IA who fly it. So, I'm hoping we take this really really seriously and investigate what went wrong with an open mind.

It's flying fine in India no? No point dismissing pilot error. Other than the fact that we are habituated to doing it, why imagine the worst just because its an Indian product?

Rhetorical question: When MiGs crash in India it is poor Indian maintenance and pilot error. When ALHs crash in Ecuador why can it not be poor maintenance and pilot error, given that dozens are flying in India?

HKumar · Post by **HKumar** » 29 Jan 2015 20:47

India’s flagship defence export, the ‘Dhruv’ Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), has come under the scanner once again as Ecuador has claimed that these choppers are becoming a cause for concern due to poor after sales service, expensive spares and even over-invoicing. The critical shortcomings are directed at state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) by Ecuador which is the biggest overseas customer of ‘Dhruv’ ALH.

Looks like a lot of Paki propaganda on Dhruv - This is a letter from the company that imports for Ecuadorians and he quotes EAF Commanders on Dhruv. Both the articles are from 2011.

http://www.elcomercio.com/actualidad/se ... dhruv.html

From G. Translate -

The Ecuadorian, FAE, Air Force disagree with the version that the Pakistan Press Agency gave about Dhruv helicopters bought the Ecuador India. According to this version, the FAE would have sent a message saying that the Indian government was thinking not buy more helicopters for its high price and poor performance. One of the Dhruv and had an accident. In a letter to this environment, the general commander of the FAE, Leonardo Barreiro Muñoz, said that these helicopters are very good and that as a result there have been major rescue operations. According Barreiro, good quality Dhruv demonstrated in "these aircraft have flown more than 2,700 hours and several of its pilots are operating them almost permanently, some are credited flight instructors and 1000 flight hours, only in this team. "The Pakistani agency said that India was charging more for the repair of a system with these devices that charged by the manufacturer in the United States. "It is important to note that it has been saving lives for civil and military personnel on board these helicopters. With these facts refute the statements made by the APP (Pakistan Press Agency) regarding a 'disappointment' of the said aircraft" Barreiro said. The commander of the FAE said in his letter that "tell us is laudable as responsible for the operation of Dhruv helicopters and therefore official source of information, thanks to the provision of six helicopters have been able to meet comprehensive manner: Missions rescue, air transport, aeromedical evacuations in support of the community and support of our soldiers who are deployed on the northern border. "Reply: At the request of John T. Cortez, president of Sumil CA, represent in Ecuador in Hindustan Aeronautics Let me direct you this communication to express my dissatisfaction and discomfort for the tip appeared in comercio.com referring to DHRUV helicopters, manufactured in India, which are being used with complete satisfaction by the sr. President of the Republic and by the Air Force of Ecuador. The article mentions be based on information agency news from Pakistan, a situation that in no way merited and some consider him a credible base. Conversely contains a number of false claims that only seeks to discredit a company of international prestige and the Ecuadorian authorities. I am surprised that a periodic trajectory daily El Comercio be reproduced without verification of any kind, unsubstantiated information, unsigned responsibility and who knows what purposes. I am convinced that behind this there is a purpose driven shady people interested solely in damage and discredit the good name of the company and its product HAL, the DHRUV helicopter, and institutions of the Ecuadorian state. Very strongly request you make room in your paper to this paper claim, and also requested to supply you initiate investigations to clarify aspects of the case. With the compliments, President Dr. Juan Cortez T. Sumil CA

[/quote]

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jan 2015 20:49

equador being high alt, I have a feeling they are not training their pilots properly for the delicate takeoff , hover and landing phases of high alt ops like our siachen type pilots train specifically for.

I believe the performance margins shrink in thin air.

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 Jan 2015 21:12

^It would be true if the accident rate is similar for other helicopters in service.

However, it might be that only Dhruv's are used in these environments and training should be improved specifically for these birds.

maz · Post by **maz** » 29 Jan 2015 22:36

How many Dhruvs have been delivered to the Indian Army to date and how many have crashed?

I believe the Army Avn Sqns operating Dhruvs are 201-206 AAS(UH) with Mk 1/2/3 and 301 AAS (Spl Ops) with the Rudra (Mk 4).
At least 60 Rudra's (have been contracted for by the Army.

205 AAS at Leh uses Mk 3. 206 AAS is most likely equipped with Mk 3's.

159 Mk 3 and Mk 4 were contracted for by the Army and Air Force in 2009 with deliveries to be completed by 2015. The order comprised 83 Mk 3 and 76 Mk 4 according to Ajai Shukla writing in Sep 2010.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Jan 2015 22:55

Well I can only hazard a guess based on records of news paper and internet reports I have kept for several years and projected production rates.

January 2015

Total no of deliveries approx. 192nos with 11 crashes.

IA- Approx 100 nos with 3 crashes

IAF- Approx 50 nos with 2 crashes

IN- 8 nos

CG-4 nos

BSF-7 nos with 2 crashes

Ecuadorian Air force- 8 nos with 4 crashes

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Jan 2015 23:07

By FY 2009 90nos Dhruv in mk1/mk2 configuration were delivered of which 74nos went to indian defence forces and 16 to others.

IA got 40nos+IAF got 22nos +IN got 8nos + CG got 4 nos=74nos

Production was halted to begin production of mk3 version of 159nos order of which 105nos was for army(of which 60nos mk4 were rudra version and 45nos mk3 version). IAF was to get rest 54 nos(of which 16nos mk4 were rudra version and 38nos mk3 version)

The production for FY10 onwards was 4+14+18+24+24+18=102nos. Last 2 numbers are projection for FY14 and FY15 upto Jan 2015 on the basis of production rate @24/year.

maz · Post by **maz** » 29 Jan 2015 23:18

Thanks Sankum.

The other exports are Nepal - 2 Mk1 or Mk 2 and 1 Mk 3; Maldives (2 or 3 including one from the Indian CG and recently one meant for the IN), Mauritius (1 or 2) and Suriname (3 contracted for but probably not yet delivered)

Ajai Shukla wrote in 2011 that "This year’s production rate of 25 Dhruvs will be accelerated from 2012 to 36 helicopters annually."

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Jan 2015 23:42

At present rate of 24/year it will take upto 2018 to fulfill the 159nos order.

It was a CAG report which criticized the low production rate of Dhruv @ 24/year which was last reported for FY13. and there was a news report that 30nos can be produced/ year only when 40/year capacity is built and HAL built 60 aircraft in FY14. My guess 24 Dhruv, 5 Dornier,15 Su30,16Hawk=60

Further DAC cleared 40 Dhruv for IA +1 Dhruv for IN=41nos in Dec 2012 and 45 nos Dhruv for IA in Dec 2013.

I think this is for mk3 version as the the mk3 version of 159nos order were being used rapidly and new orders were needed and mk4 production was in low rate.

In june 2014 DAC cleared 16 Dhruv for IN and 16 Dhruv for CG for a total 32 nos.

Total orders are

IA=40+105+40+45=230

IAF=22+54=76

IN=8+16=24

CG=3+16=19

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Jan 2015 00:08

It can be very well that 201-204 AAS(UH) are equipped with 40nos mk1/mk2 @ 10nos/unit and 205 AAS(UH) onward mk3 equipped and there should be at least 4 units and may be a couple of unit from 301 AAS (Spl Ops) onward with the Rudra (Mk 4).

IAF 2sq with 22nos mk1/2 @11nos/sq. and 2sq more with mk3.

MOD never releases exact figures.

srin · Post by **srin** » 30 Jan 2015 00:24

shiv wrote:
srin wrote: For the sake of Dhruv's reputation, I sure hope so, but we can't jump to that conclusion. This would be similar to Russia brushing off Sukhoi accidents as "incompetent pilots" instead of looking at design issues with ejection seats etc.

If there is a design issue, it will affect our own pilots of IAF and IA who fly it. So, I'm hoping we take this really really seriously and investigate what went wrong with an open mind.
It's flying fine in India no? No point dismissing pilot error. Other than the fact that we are habituated to doing it, why imagine the worst just because its an Indian product?

Rhetorical question: When MiGs crash in India it is poor Indian maintenance and pilot error. When ALHs crash in Ecuador why can it not be poor maintenance and pilot error, given that dozens are flying in India?

I don't imagine the worst. OTOH, you are ... about someone disagreeing with you. All I stated is: just don't jump to conclusions without basing on facts.

Could it be the maintenance practices or spares ? Could there be something in the flight manual that shouldn't be there - that the IAF has learnt not to follow ?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Jan 2015 15:03

Of 31/32 nos delivered to other than Indian def forces

BSF-7nos

Ecuadorian air force-8nos

Nepal-3nos

Maldives-3nos

Mauritius-1/2nos

Jharkhand- 2nos

ONGC- 6nos

Geological survey of India-1nos

The production for IA @16/year and IAF @8/year. IN @4/year and CG@4/year for a total of @32/year should be aimed by HAL to complete pending orders and there is no hint so far that they are increasing it.

Even @24/year present production rate they have 7year order book and I don't think it will be economical to raise the Dhruv production rate.

May be more clarity emerges when HAL rolls out the 200th Dhruv in a ceremony from there production line in next few months.

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 31 Jan 2015 19:46

Bad news Friends.
IAF Mig 21 crashed near Jamnagar this evening. Fortunately, the pilot ejected safely.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 31 Jan 2015 21:47

Replace it with an LCA!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Feb 2015 22:08

maz wrote:How many Dhruvs have been delivered to the Indian Army to date and how many have crashed?

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... l-chairman

~ Oct 2013:

"One lakh hours flown by the machine is an awesome feat to achieve. It is a dream machine for any pilot", said Lt Col Kapil Agarwal who completed the landmark flying hours. ALH is being operated by Indian Air Force, Indian Army, Indian Navy, Coast Guard, BSF and state governments since 2002, said an HAL statement.

Currently, more than 132 Dhruv helicopters are serving the Indian Defence Forces. HAL has also built 12 civil variant Dhruv helicopters and they are being used by its customers. The Ecuador Air Force operates six Dhruv helicopters with their President choosing to fly in them.

Per article Dhruv is in service with state governments also.

Added later:

GOVT. OF JHARKHAND,CIVIL

1

VT-HAP

DHRUV (ALH)

9

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2005

GOVERNMENT
Passenger

HINDUSTAN AERONAUTICS LTD.

2

VT-HAQ

DHRUV (ALH)

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2005

PRIVATE
Private

3

VT-HAM

DHRUV (ALH)

9

multi Turbo engine Experimental

2004

Private

OIL AND NATURAL GAS CORP. LTD.

4

VT-HAN

DHRUV (ALH)

9

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2002

PRIVATE
Private

5

VT-HAR

DHRUV (ALH)

10

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2005

GOVERNMENT
Private

ROTARY WING ACADEMY

6

VT-HAO

DHRUV (ALH)

8

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

1998

NON-SCHEDULED
Passenger

Operator/
Registration No. Type of Aircraft Seating
Capacity Description Year of Manf. Services
BORDER SECURITY FORCE (AIR WING)

1

VT-BSH

ALH PTC2

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2009

GOVERNMENT
Passenger

2

VT-BSK

ALH PTC2

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2009

GOVERNMENT
Passenger

3

VT-BSS

ALH PTC2

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2009

GOVERNMENT
Passenger

4

VT-BSM

ALH PTC2

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2010

PRIVATE
Passenger

5

VT-BSN

ALH PTC2

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2010

PRIVATE
Passenger

DY. DIRECTOR GENERAL GEOLOGICAL SURVEY OF INDIA

6

VT-HAU

ALH PTC2

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2009

GOVERNMENT
Aerial
8

VT-BSP

ALH PTC2

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2010

PRIVATE
Passenger

10

VT-BSJ

ALH PTC2

14

multi Turbo engine Helicopter

2009

GOVERNMENT
Passenger

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 02 Feb 2015 22:20

Cant make out from the above format about which service has how many Dhruv in service

Can you kindly condense it in the format I have used.

Thanks

Any corrections are welcome.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 03 Feb 2015 06:44

Aditya G wrote:
maz wrote:How many Dhruvs have been delivered to the Indian Army to date and how many have crashed?
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... l-chairman

~ Oct 2013:

"One lakh hours flown by the machine is an awesome feat to achieve. It is a dream machine for any pilot", said Lt Col Kapil Agarwal who completed the landmark flying hours. ALH is being operated by Indian Air Force, Indian Army, Indian Navy, Coast Guard, BSF and state governments since 2002, said an HAL statement.

Currently, more than 132 Dhruv helicopters are serving the Indian Defence Forces. HAL has also built 12 civil variant Dhruv helicopters and they are being used by its customers. The Ecuador Air Force operates six Dhruv helicopters with their President choosing to fly in them.

Per article Dhruv is in service with state governments also.

Operator, Registration No., Type of Aircraft, Seating Capacity, Description, Year of Manf., Services,

BORDER SECURITY FORCE (AIR WING)
1,VT-BSH,ALH PTC2,14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2009,GOVERNMENT,Passenger
2,VT-BSK,ALH PTC2,14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2009,GOVERNMENT,Passenger
3,VT-BSS,ALH PTC2,14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2009,GOVERNMENT,Passenger
4,VT-BSM,ALH PTC2,14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2010,PRIVATE,Passenger
5,VT-BSN,ALH PTC2,14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2010,PRIVATE,Passenger

DY. DIRECTOR GENERAL GEOLOGICAL SURVEY OF INDIA
6,VT-HAU,ALH PTC2,14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2009,GOVERNMENT,Aerial

GOVT. OF JHARKHAND,CIVIL
7,VT-HAP,DHRUV (ALH),9,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2005,GOVERNMENT,Passenger

HINDUSTAN AERONAUTICS LTD.
8,VT-BSP,ALH PTC2,14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2010,PRIVATE,Passenger
9,VT-HAQ,DHRUV (ALH),14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2005,PRIVATE,Private
10,VT-BSJ,ALH PTC2,14,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2009,GOVERNMENT,Passenger
11,VT-HAM,DHRUV (ALH),9,multi Turbo engine Experimental,2004,GOVERNMENT,Private

OIL AND NATURAL GAS CORP. LTD.
12,VT-HAN,DHRUV (ALH),9,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2002,PRIVATE,Private
13,VT-HAR,DHRUV (ALH),10,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,2005,GOVERNMENT,Private

ROTARY WING ACADEMY
14,VT-HAO,DHRUV (ALH),8,multi Turbo engine Helicopter,1998,NON-SCHEDULED,Passenger

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 03 Feb 2015 15:38

Updated info on 16 Dhruv supplied to Indian civil sector.

BSF- 7 nos of which 2 crashes

ONGC- 2 nos

Jharkhand- 1 nos

HAL- 4 nos

Geological survey of India- 1 nos

ROTARY WING ACADEMY - 1 nos

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 03 Feb 2015 15:45

Updated info on confirmed 13 nos Dhruv exported.

Ecuadorian air force- 7 nos of which 4 crashes

Nepal- 3 nos

Maldives- 2 nos

Mauritius- 1 nos

More Dhruv may have been exported.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 03 Feb 2015 21:50

sankum wrote:Updated info on confirmed 13 nos Dhruv exported.

Ecuadorian air force- 7 nos of which 4 crashes

Nepal- 3 nos

Maldives- 2 nos

Mauritius- 1 nos

More Dhruv may have been exported.

Ecuadorian Air force - 8 nos of which 4 crashed

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 03 Feb 2015 22:01

Any confirmation link that replacement Dhruv was delivered to Ecuadorian air force to take the number to eight as several news reports are claiming that only 3 Dhruv are remaining

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2015 22:51

Parrikar defends Dhruv helo after Ecuador crash

Key Points

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar has defended the HAL Dhruv helicopter after the fourth of seven sold to Ecuador crashed
Parrikar said the helicopter was a 'good platform' and that HAL was working to deal with a spares shortage

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar on 30 January defended the operational competence of the indigenously developed Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), three days after Ecuador placed its ALH fleet on restricted operations following another accident.

The Ecuador Air Force (EAF) acquired seven ALHs built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore in 2008-09 for USD45 million, in what was India's first ever export of a locally designed military platform.

But one of the 5.5 tonne, twin-engine platforms crashed soon after while making a low pass at a military parade in Quito. A second accident occurred in February 2014, in which three of four crew members died.

Meanwhile, on 13 and 27 January, two more ALHs suffered accidents, with one catching fire in the Amazon rainforest after taking off from the Tena military base, local media reported.

"Three [remaining] aircraft have had their operations restricted because they are undergoing a complete check," Ecuador security minister Cesar Navas told the El Universo newspaper on 27 January.

Speaking on the sidelines of a military function in New Delhi, Parrikar defended the aircraft. "Dhruv is a good platform," he told reporters. "If there is any issue about its maintenance, I have asked HAL to create a depot wherever it is required, so that spares are available."

Parrikar admitted that HAL faced problems of providing ALH spares, but asserted that these would be resolved in 3-6 months. He said HAL, which has been series building the ALH since 2000, had recently allocated INR4 billion (USD66.66 million) to build up its inventory of ALH spares to supply overseas customers like the EAF.

In August 2013 India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) censured HAL for underpricing the ALH by INR520 million in order to secure the EAF tender.

HAL had quoted INR2.04 billion for the seven ALHs, an offer that was 32% cheaper than the second-lowest bid by Israel's Elbit, the CAG declared. It also revealed that HAL was penalised INR60 million by the EAF for late delivery of two helicopters, further adding to its losses on the deal.

COMMENT

Industry officials said the multiple ALH mishaps in Ecuador would damage HAL's campaign to pitch the platform for export at the biennial Aero India show in Bangalore in February.

On 28 January outgoing HAL chairman R K Tyagi declared that his company considered the ALH a competitively priced, saleable product that merited favourable consideration by overseas customers.

However, in addition to its poor export prospects, the ALH has had a troublesome track record domestically, with four crashing since 2011.

The most recent ALH accident occurred in July 2014 near Lucknow, 470 km southeast of Delhi, in which seven Indian Air Force (IAF) personnel died.

Since 2002 the Indian Army has inducted over 140 ALHs and the IAF about another 40, but repeated technical snags have afflicted their operations. They have also been found unsuitable for multirole deployment, particularly in Kashmir's mountainous terrain, due to their excess weight and limited engine capacity.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 05 Feb 2015 16:18

Courtesy: Tarmak007

HAL Bags Rs 1090 Crore contract for supplying 14 Do-228 Aircraft to IAF

(Unedited press release)

Bengaluru, February 5, 2015: HAL has bagged a major Defence contract for supplying 14 Do-228 aircraft produced by HAL to the Indian Air Force. “Apart from these aircraft, the contract valued at around Rs. 1090 crores includes six reserve engines, one flight simulator and associated equipment”, says Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, Chairman, HAL. “This also reflects the trust of the Defence customers on HAL and we remain committed to supporting Indian Defence Services for all their needs”, he adds.

HAL Do-228 aircraft will be manufactured by the Transport Aircraft Division at Kanpur. The Division has expertise in manufacturing of transport and trainer category of aircraft and has till date manufactured 125 HAL Do-228 aircraft for various defence and other customers. This aircraft has been exported to Seychelles and Mauritius. Last year, one Dornier was also supplied to Bangalore based Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) to be used as flying test bed (FTB) for evaluation of performance of various radars being developed by them.

HAL Do-228 is a highly reliable, multi-purpose, fuel efficient, rugged, light weight twin turboprop aircraft with a retractable tricycle landing gear. The cockpit is designed to accommodate two crew members and is fitted with duplicate controls. The cabin can accommodate 19 passengers in commuter configuration. The general features are maximum take-off weight-6400 kg, maximum payload - 1903 Kg, fuel capacity- 2850 litre (2250Kg), maximum cruise speed- 428 mm/hr, service ceiling-4299 M, engines - 2 garrett TPE 331-5-252D engines each driving a four bladed reversible pitch, fully feathering propeller.

The versatility of HAL-DO-228s are due to several in-built features such as highest fuel carrying capacity in its class (2850 litres) due to integral fuel tanks in wings, low structural weight ensured through use of advanced composite materials, high wing design for unobstructed view and radar coverage, wide wheel base for better stability, short take-off and landing capability- the aircraft can take off from around 700 m and land within 575 m- essentially required for operations from short and semi-prepared airfields, sturdy landing gears, rectangular cabin offering more head space for passengers and mounting space for equipment in case of special mission configuration as opposed to circular cabin, low floor level and wide door for easy loading/unloading of cargo, flight openable roller door, four wing hard points for mounting of external loads up to 1030 kg, optimum performance at normal cruising altitude for short haul applications enabled by the revolutionary design of wing aerofoil.

HAL has fitted several role specific equipment on this aircraft to meet the specialized requirement of its customers. To keep the aircraft contemporary with latest technology developments HAL continuously strives through its strong research and design base, to develop and integrate new modifications.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2015 16:32

Instead of hankering for Rafales and similar overpriced gear, I wish the IAF set up its own EW squadron like the IN with low cost Do-228s packing locally available ESM gear so that ESM/ELINT support is available freely across squadrons for targeting purposes. Three Phalcons & the 2 AEW&C are not going to be enough. This while the IAF refuses to place large orders for any other platforms hoping the Rafale will magically materialize. Once we purchase it, we will realize the all singing and dancing Spectra is also nothing but a limited fighter self defence suit and more is required.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Feb 2015 16:39

^^^ IAF has been using Do-228s in this role for quite some time though more numbers are desirable. There is a sqn /flt set up in existence.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2015 16:58

Deejay, is that confirmed? IIRC IAF has had a couple of Boeing 737s with DLRL/BEL gear ordered in the 90s & its the IN which has a dedicated IW flight with Do-228s.
The dedicated EW squadron was based on MiG-21s and Canberras equipped with some imported jammers and gear + local ESM.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2015 17:02

I also remember a discussion where French fanboys were going rah rah over Rafale etc and its magical Spectra. One serving French maintenance guy jumped in & let slip that the Spectra at the end of the day was limited & Rafale had to carry specialized ESM/EW pods for anything substantial but still fighter class. Everyone shut up after that. I think IAF has over committed itself to Rafale capex and needs to focus on the other stuff till the Rafale (if) comes. Till now we should have had at least one follow on indent for the relatively cost effective Embraer AEW&C. Only 2 on order, with 1 as a DRDO Test Bed. Hardly sufficient for IAF needs.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Feb 2015 17:54

Karan M wrote:Deejay, is that confirmed? IIRC IAF has had a couple of Boeing 737s with DLRL/BEL gear ordered in the 90s & its the IN which has a dedicated IW flight with Do-228s.
The dedicated EW squadron was based on MiG-21s and Canberras equipped with some imported jammers and gear + local ESM.

That the IAF is in 'jugaad' mode is a given. I find it amazing that we do not take it in calculations.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2015 17:58

I think jugaad was order of day over last decade for IAF etc. Which is why in capex constrained environment, their decision to push for gold plated Rafales while cheaper LCAs, Su-30s etc are available becomes even more telling & bizarre.

On the positive side, while the Canberras and MiG-21s may have been retired, its likely the IAF has replaced at least the latter with stand off jammers on the Su-30 and Jaguar fleets. Jaguar details (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... rt-Jammers)

The Canberra role has probably been taken up by the 3 Phalcons (and 2AEWs to come) all of which have a powerful ESM suite. But still not sufficient for a large AF.

More than airframes, they should invest in these sensors as well.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 Feb 2015 17:59

Karan M wrote:I also remember a discussion where French fanboys were going rah rah over Rafale etc and its magical Spectra. One serving French maintenance guy jumped in & let slip that the Spectra at the end of the day was limited & Rafale had to carry specialized ESM/EW pods for anything substantial but still fighter class. Everyone shut up after that. I think IAF has over committed itself to Rafale capex and needs to focus on the other stuff till the Rafale (if) comes. Till now we should have had at least one follow on indent for the relatively cost effective Embraer AEW&C. Only 2 on order, with 1 as a DRDO Test Bed. Hardly sufficient for IAF needs.

Electronic warfare is my area of interest, and you are absolutely right. People have extremely high expectations from systems such as Spectra or Falcon Edge. EA and EW are very complex things that have to be tackled at multiple levels. The The environment in which future wars would be fought would also be a lot different thanks to the proliferation of AESA radars, lowered cost of systems and the fact that the electronics and computing industry has proliferated worldwide with everyone having access to some very high capability products off the shelf. Moreover, even now the current level of sophisticated decoys have an emitting signature and profile that is a challenge to discriminate (ground based radar/IAD decoys). How much EA/EW activity goes into a fighter depends upon your threat, how much power it has, how much computing it has, how much sensor fusion it has, cooling, RCS etc etc. I have a ton of data that I wanted to include into my first blog post but that has been indefinitely delayed (the blog)

. Ultimately a lot of capability to tackle the RF spectrum comes from being able to discriminate the threat while most "spectra, Growler and FE" fanboys overemphasize the jamming aspect.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 05 Feb 2015 18:45

.

@brar_w

I sure Jamming and Stealth is going to dominate future Battle's. Where Air superiority can be Achieved by superior and Long range SAM batteries

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 Feb 2015 19:36

SajeevJino wrote:.

@brar_w

I sure Jamming and Stealth is going to dominate future Battle's. Where Air superiority can be Achieved by superior and Long range SAM batteries

Yes, although searching for a proper perspective on capability and counter capability (for the above mentioned systems) on the media is rather futile. This is one area where the defense and aerospace media does a pathetic job of reporting or providing opinion. Here one has to research the academia and often times the factual history of research and development that itself is intertwined in straight forward open projects and complex classified or semi-classified programs of record.