Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Thakur_B » 18 Mar 2015 19:43

Karan M wrote:Thakur_B, Nikhil_P, Maitya, Prasanna Simha, Kartik - gents are you interested in contributing to the R&D details on the BR Main site? Do let me or rahul m know.


I can help in keeping wiki updated.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22733 » 18 Mar 2015 19:50

Thakur_B wrote:
LokeshC wrote:shiv saar,

Such installations can be taken down quickly with something like Brahmos no? High accuracy destruction of key targets in rapid succession, fits in with cold start too.

Most of Bakistan's air assets are not that "deep" for a Brahmos to run out of range.

Usual disclaimer (noobie wandering into something i know nothing about).


The farthest point in Pakistan from Indian border is about 800 km, Brahmos range is 600 km. 90% of Pakistan is covered by Brahmos.


Armchair jernail in me says that when cold-start activates, there should be a barrage of land based and sea based Brahmos with slower Nirbhays finishing off the fuel storage, radar, air logistics and critical road/railway infrastructure in one go before the army even marches a step. The rest of the air dominance job can be finished easily wth what we have.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28657 » 18 Mar 2015 19:58

Thakur_B wrote:
LokeshC wrote:shiv saar,

Such installations can be taken down quickly with something like Brahmos no? High accuracy destruction of key targets in rapid succession, fits in with cold start too.

Most of Bakistan's air assets are not that "deep" for a Brahmos to run out of range.

Usual disclaimer (noobie wandering into something i know nothing about).


The farthest point in Pakistan from Indian border is about 800 km, Brahmos range is 600 km. 90% of Pakistan is covered by Brahmos.


Have they increased the range of the land attack version of Brahmos from 290 KM to 600 KM? If so, that is awesome news!
Last edited by member_28657 on 18 Mar 2015 20:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Thakur_B » 18 Mar 2015 20:04

ddkhare wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:The farthest point in Pakistan from Indian border is about 800 km, Brahmos range is 600 km. 90% of Pakistan is covered by Brahmos.


Have then increased the range of the land attack version of Brahmos from 290 KM to 600 KM? If so, that is awesome news!


It was always 600 km, justified in MTCR by adding lots of low level moneuvers and S-curves. For full range it has to be flown at 18 km instead of regular 15 km.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2015 20:55

Brahmos Corp cant increase the range to 600 km without coming under MTCR sanctions from West most likely Cat 1 sanction under MTCR.

But indeed the Saraswat Video did state test to be done on Brahmos to increase range to 600 km by flying it at altitude of 18 km.

They should do this quitely without publishing it and claim it at 290 km else there would be consequences for Brahmos Corp

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 18 Mar 2015 21:02

Lokesh, one attack with one Brahmos is hardly enough. Air bases are huge and damage can be repaired and new aircraft flown in from elsewhere. Jagan's book about the 1965 air war is informative in this regard. For air dominance targets have to be attacked relentlessly and repeatedly, with recce missions and intel to tell if they are really knocked out or not and more repeat attacks if they are repaired.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby svinayak » 18 Mar 2015 21:52

Austin wrote:Brahmos Corp cant increase the range to 600 km without coming under MTCR sanctions from West most likely Cat 1 sanction under MTCR.

But indeed the Saraswat Video did state test to be done on Brahmos to increase range to 600 km by flying it at altitude of 18 km.

They should do this quitely without publishing it and claim it at 290 km else there would be consequences for Brahmos Corp

Wars are not fought under the MTCR rules. All the global treaties and agreements are not followed during the times of War. Adversaries will obtain war material from countries which are forbidden to give.

India will have the right to fight with whatever weapons India has in hand. It includes ranges of weapon systems which make war short.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_23370 » 19 Mar 2015 00:30

No need to publicize Brahmos range. The fact that they claim Brahmos-M with 6 m length and 0.5 m dia can achieve the same range (290km) should be clue enough. Same is true of the Agni/K series.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby John » 19 Mar 2015 00:46

Thakur_B wrote:It was always 600 km, justified in MTCR by adding lots of low level moneuvers and S-curves. For full range it has to be flown at 18 km instead of regular 15 km.


Brahmos range in hi-lo profile is 280-290 km and 120 km in lo-lo profile. Increased range greatly increases chance of it getting shot down. Almost any Ashm range can be doubled that applies to harpoon (some claim the true range is in excess of 400 km), moskit, exocet, styx etc (Saddam for example manage to convert old Silkworm missiles to 200 km+ land attack missiles).

You can do that by modifying the flight path and reducing the terminal phase where the missile spends most of its fuel for various maneuvers to avoid being shot down. Newer missiles are coded to prevent that and enforce MTCR. Lets leave the range at 300 km and stop this end less discussion.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby VinodTK » 19 Mar 2015 03:16

Indian Air Force Mirage scrambled in Delhi scare
The Indian Air Force (IAF) had to scramble a Mirage-2000 fighter aircraft to intercept a domestic Delhi-bound commercial flight after its contact with air traffic control was lost due to malfunctioning of the plane’s communication system, triggering a scare for aviation and military authorities on Tuesday evening.

The incident, which happened on Tuesday evening, led to tense moments at the Joint Control and Analysis Centre (JCAC) —- that comprises both civilian and military officers in New Delhi. An Alliance Air aircraft’s communication system apparently malfunctioned while the aircraft was flying from Allahabad to New Delhi. Alliance Air is a subsidiary of national carrier Air India.

Sources said communication between the aircraft and the ATC was snapped for a few minutes. “In such a situation, it was decided to scramble a fighter aircraft from Gwalior as the aircraft was heading towards New Delhi especially since communication links had snapped for some time,” defence sources said. The IAF was informed about the snapping of the communication links at about 4.30 pm on Tuesday.

ATC sources said complete communication links between the aircraft and ATC were re-established within 14 minutes. In that time, the ATC was also able to establish emergency contact with the plane for some time. The Mirage-2000 fighter also managed to locate the aircraft and tailed it as per procedure till it landed safely in New Delhi on Tuesday evening.

Following the 9/11 attack in the US in 2001, the Indian government in 2005 had come out with a new anti-hijack policy that allowed a hijacked plane to be shot down in case the plane was being used as a “missile”.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Mar 2015 06:41

John wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:It was always 600 km, justified in MTCR by adding lots of low level moneuvers and S-curves. For full range it has to be flown at 18 km instead of regular 15 km.


Brahmos range in hi-lo profile is 280-290 km and 120 km in lo-lo profile. Increased range greatly increases chance of it getting shot down. Almost any Ashm range can be doubled that applies to harpoon (some claim the true range is in excess of 400 km), moskit, exocet, styx etc (Saddam for example manage to convert old Silkworm missiles to 200 km+ land attack missiles).

You can do that by modifying the flight path and reducing the terminal phase where the missile spends most of its fuel for various maneuvers to avoid being shot down. Newer missiles are coded to prevent that and enforce MTCR. Lets leave the range at 300 km and stop this end less discussion.



Apparently Dr. Saraswat doesn't agree with your reasoning. The 600 km range, and 'an exercise shall be soon conducted in this regard' was suggested by none other than him.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 19 Mar 2015 08:50

Regarding IAF in 1971 - It was the Pakis who were hell bent on air combat air combat air combat. The IAF went for the jugular with deadly and repeated attacks under heavy opposition.
http://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/01/17/ ... 14208.html
While Pakistani pilots were obsessed with aerial combat, IAF tactics were highly sophisticated in nature, involving bomber escorts, tactical recce, ground attack and dummy runs to divert Pakistani interceptors from the main targets. Plus, the IAF had to reckon with the dozens of brand new aircraft being supplied to Pakistan by Muslim countries like Jordan, Turkey and the UAE.

Most missions flown by Indian pilots were conducted by day and at low level, with the pilots making repeated attacks on well defended targets. Indian aircraft flew into Pakistani skies thick with flak, virtually non-stop during the 14-day war. Many Bengali guerrillas later told the victorious Indian Army that it was the epic sight of battles fought over their skies by Indian air aces and the sight of Indian aircraft diving in on Pakistani positions that inspired them to fight.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby abhik » 19 Mar 2015 09:19

Re China (or the China + paki scenario) we are not paying enough attention to the asymmetric dimension IMO. Cyber warfare, ASAT weapons etc. I think investments on these will payoff much better than uber expensive fighters like the Rafale.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 19 Mar 2015 09:44

Does anyone know exactly how a war will be fought in future? When India armed itself after 1971 did we expect terrorism? Did the US expect to be slapped by its own aircraft collapsing its own icons starting a war that has changed the US more than its adversaries?

Wars are most likely to be fought where an adversary's strengths are neutralized or at their weakest. On BRf was always concentrate on what we see as India's weaknesses. Nothing wrong in that - but any war we fight with China or anyone else must concentrate on exploiting their weaknesses . When we talk about Chinese strengths, we are talking about strengths and not weaknesses, which is what we need to hit. Funny innit?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 19 Mar 2015 10:05

Why do we have combat aircraft?

We have combat aircraft for the primary role of attacking an enemy's assets and hastening his defeat and the secondary role of defending our airspace. Even with surface to surface missiles and artillery - the only way multiple, repeated heavy attacks can be conducted on different varieties of enemy targets is by aircraft.

Interceptor aircraft and CAPs only form an extra layer of insurance over and above other means of defence against air attack. The latter include fortifications, camouflage, redundancy of systems, decoys, quick repairs, and anti-aircraft defences. Here again attacking enemy airfields and radar forms an important part of defence against air attack

We need aircraft that can attack deep inside enemy territory - hitting targets with smart weapons that avoid the need for aircraft to fly into the most heavily defended zones if possible. Modern combat aircraft are designed for high serviceability, easy repair by replacing Line-Replaceable Units (LRUs) and survivability by great avionics and standoff attack capability. So long as we talk cost cost cost cost cost cost cost cost cost we are not talking about what we do not know - ie serviceability, reliability, survivability and standoff weapon capability.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby John » 20 Mar 2015 00:17

Thakur_B wrote:
Apparently Dr. Saraswat doesn't agree with your reasoning. The 600 km range, and 'an exercise shall be soon conducted in this regard' was suggested by none other than him.


I didn't say the range cannot be more than 300 km, even Moskit has supposed range of 500 km for hitting land targets.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sid » 20 Mar 2015 01:01

John wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
Apparently Dr. Saraswat doesn't agree with your reasoning. The 600 km range, and 'an exercise shall be soon conducted in this regard' was suggested by none other than him.


I didn't say the range cannot be more than 300 km, even Moskit has supposed range of 500 km for hitting land targets.


Didn't someone from BR (probably Kartik) confirmed during previous AI that Brahmos range is limited by software, i.e. it will be liquidated beyond 290KM range. In future MTCR may even force to apply geo-fencing features, to destroy it if it heads towards the "good" guys.

MTCR does not apply to bro-nations.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 20 Mar 2015 01:10

Let's us just say Brahmos has a 300 km radius, and let it be. 8)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2015 01:19

I dont understand why we even need to have this conversation publicly.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2015 03:58

shiv wrote:
titash wrote:Shiv-ji, it appears the upcoming conflict will be a 2 front war with the IAF outnumbered in 4+ generation fighters by at least 3:1...there won't be too many attack sorties unlike 1965/1971.

I disagree with this analysis. What you are saying is that more than half the Indian Air force and pilots trained and honed for attack missions will sit idle like 1962. There is no way this will happen. I am in such intense and profound disagreement with your view that I know I cannot convey all that i would like to say by typing - it is more easily done in a face to face conversation. No insult intended. I am going to drop the subject here and now.


http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 410100.htm

`We are a totally offensive force'

Interview with Air Chief Marshal S. Krishnaswamy.


Is not the IAF's operational ethos more defence-oriented?

That's not true. The IAF is more strike-oriented. Look at our inventory: MiG-23s, MiG-27s, Jaguars, all strike aircraft. Mirage 2000 is a multi-role aircraft. So is the Su-30MKI, which can carry 8 tonnes of weapons load. MiG-21 (Bison) is again multi-role; it can drop PGM (precision-guided munition) and has precision attack capabilities. MiG-21(Bis), although we are using it for air defence, is a short-role, multi-role aircraft. Even during the Kargil operations we performed a role that was more strike than air defence. The IAF has pure air defence aircraft like MiG-29s, pure strike aircraft and ones with multi-role.

But is the orientation towards air defence and close air support and not offensive warfare?

Besides our inventory, our posture should make it obvious that our orientation is definitely to strike. We believe that defence does not win the war. We are a totally offensive air force. If the IAF is built around defence, it is a total waste of tax-payers' money.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Gyan » 20 Mar 2015 09:59

My guess about Brahmos Range in hi hi hi coast glide profile would be 1000km.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 20 Mar 2015 10:24

Sid wrote:
Didn't someone from BR (probably Kartik) confirmed during previous AI that Brahmos range is limited by software, i.e. it will be liquidated beyond 290KM range. In future MTCR may even force to apply geo-fencing features, to destroy it if it heads towards the "good" guys.

MTCR does not apply to bro-nations.


Na, I didn't say anything of that sort..I think it was Dr Sivanthanu Pillai who hinted at that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 20 Mar 2015 11:17

The MIG-29UGs are being upgraded with significant strike capability enhancement,able to carry most of the KH series of air-launched missiles.A 2013 DID report.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ted-01879/
The planes will be fitted with upgraded weapons and a new avionics suite, including the Phazatron Zhuk-ME radar. The Zhuk-M/ME is a derivative of the baseline Zhuk radar, but its acquisition range has increased 1.5 times, with a wide scan and tracking area of + / – 85 deg. in azimuth and + / – 60 deg. in elevation. It also adds terrain following mode, and ground target acquisition including high-resolution SAR. To ensure readiness, a maintenance and repair center will be established in India.

Normally, these moves would accompany weapons upgrades. India’s MiG-29s are already believed to be capable of firing the R-77/AA-12 “AMRAAMski” medium range air-air missile, but photos consistently show the R-27/ AA-10. The new systems will offer certain R-77 compatibility, along with the ability to mount precision air-to-ground weapons. Upgraded electronic warfare systems round out the package, to improve survivability against modern threats.

short MiG-29 UPG, 1st flight
MiG-29UPG
(click to view full)

In terms of aerodynamic performance, India’s MiG-29s will be upgraded with extra fuel tanks in a thickened center spine, but even upgraded MiG-29s have Soviet short-legs syndrome. Adding mid-air refueling capability completes the upgrade, offering dramatic changes to the fighters’ deployment range. Unspecified engine modifications may also correct some of the problems experienced with the R-33 engine, such as the visible smoke trails that have already been addressed in the MiG-29M2. Local R-33 engine production will offer much improved maintenance turnaround time.

India will be left with an MiG-29UPG aircraft that’s comparable to the F-16C as a strike fighter, with air-to-air performance that’s arguably superior to all but the F-16E/F Block 60s with their ultra-advanced AESA radar.


Wiki:
IAF has also awarded the MiG Corporation another US$900 million contract to upgrade all of its 69 operational MiG-29s. These upgrades will include a new avionics kit, with the N-109 radar being The upgrade will also include a new weapon control system, cockpit ergonomics, air-to-air missiles, high-accuracy air-to-ground missiles and "smart" aerial bombs.replaced by a Phazatron Zhuk-M radar. The aircraft is also being equipped to enhance beyond-visual-range combat ability and for air-to-air refuelling to increase endurance.[47] In 2007, Russia also gave India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) a licence to manufacture 120 RD-33 series 3 turbofan engines for the upgrade.[48] The first six MiG-29s will be upgraded in Russia while the remaining 63 MiGs will be upgraded at the HAL facility in India. India also awarded a multi-million dollar contract to Israel Aircraft Industries to provide avionics and subsystems for the upgrade.[49]

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby mody » 20 Mar 2015 16:50

When most people talk of a 2-front war, they only talk about number of aircrafts. What about the air defense network.

Its not just a planes vs planes scenario. We have to upgrade a lot of our air defense network. On the radars front, a lot of the work has already started and our medium power radars and all going to be new in a few years time.
I would like to see the following happen over the next 5-7 years and this will take care of fighter plane quantity imbalance in a 2-front war.

1). Add another 8 squadrons of Akash (hopefully MK-II), to the current order of 8 squadrons of Akash MK-I SAMs.
2). Add 8-12 squadrons of MRSAM (barak-NG) to the AD network.
3). Develop the VL-Astra as a short range QRSAM. Add 16 squadrons of VL-Astra, with indigenous seeker as the last line of defense, around all airbases and major military installations. This will be needed to ward of the swarm of Cruise missiles that we can expect from both sides of the border.
4). complete the development of the 2-tier BMD and deploy as necessary.
5). Order 2 additional Phalcon AWACS.
6). Complete development of AEW C&C aircraft and order an additional 8 Embraer's (6 for the IAF and 2 for the Navy), to plug all the holes. Full scale indigenous AWACS can follow after this. Balloon based and other assets can be added as required.
7). Complete the overhaul/upgradation/replacement of the entire spectrum of radar coverage around India. A lot has already happened on this front, but a lot more still needs to be done.
8). A dedicated AD satellite for the IAF, that will give it a complete picture of the entire airspace.
9). Add refueling aircrafts, as required, atleast another 14.

The above will give India, one of the best AD networks in the world and will go a long way in freeing up our air assets for the strike role. Also, AWACS, re-fueller etc are all called force multipliers for a reason.
Also, for China, most of their airbases on Tibet and Xinxiang are not very close to the border with India and from most of them, their aircrafts will be fighting very close to the max operational range and will not be able to penetrate very deep inside Indian territory to strike. Mostly they will rely on missiles (both cruise and short-medium range ballistic) for strikes deep inside our territory.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby titash » 20 Mar 2015 20:36

Karan M wrote:
shiv wrote:I disagree with this analysis. What you are saying is that more than half the Indian Air force and pilots trained and honed for attack missions will sit idle like 1962. There is no way this will happen. I am in such intense and profound disagreement with your view that I know I cannot convey all that i would like to say by typing - it is more easily done in a face to face conversation. No insult intended. I am going to drop the subject here and now.


http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 410100.htm

`We are a totally offensive force'

Interview with Air Chief Marshal S. Krishnaswamy.


Is not the IAF's operational ethos more defence-oriented?

That's not true. The IAF is more strike-oriented. Look at our inventory: MiG-23s, MiG-27s, Jaguars, all strike aircraft. Mirage 2000 is a multi-role aircraft. So is the Su-30MKI, which can carry 8 tonnes of weapons load. MiG-21 (Bison) is again multi-role; it can drop PGM (precision-guided munition) and has precision attack capabilities. MiG-21(Bis), although we are using it for air defence, is a short-role, multi-role aircraft. Even during the Kargil operations we performed a role that was more strike than air defence. The IAF has pure air defence aircraft like MiG-29s, pure strike aircraft and ones with multi-role.

But is the orientation towards air defence and close air support and not offensive warfare?

Besides our inventory, our posture should make it obvious that our orientation is definitely to strike. We believe that defence does not win the war. We are a totally offensive air force. If the IAF is built around defence, it is a total waste of tax-payers' money.


Karan-ji, that article is over a decade old. A lot has changed since then; the PAF's modern fighters are now BVR capable and numerically stronger than ever, and the PLAAF's capabilities have grown (or are poised to grow) exponentially.
Last edited by titash on 20 Mar 2015 21:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby titash » 20 Mar 2015 21:24

shiv wrote:
titash wrote:Shiv-ji, it appears the upcoming conflict will be a 2 front war with the IAF outnumbered in 4+ generation fighters by at least 3:1...there won't be too many attack sorties unlike 1965/1971.

I disagree with this analysis. What you are saying is that more than half the Indian Air force and pilots trained and honed for attack missions will sit idle like 1962. There is no way this will happen. I am in such intense and profound disagreement with your view that I know I cannot convey all that i would like to say by typing - it is more easily done in a face to face conversation. No insult intended. I am going to drop the subject here and now.


No offence taken either Shiv-ji :) I intended to drop it also, but can't resist stirring the pot a bit (yes, I am on vacation).

(1) 1962 was a political decision, not an operational problem.

(2) We are moving away from the heydays of having a dedicated strike force...at some point, we had 120+ Jaguars and 140+ MiG-27s (accounting for roughly more than a third of the IAF's fighter strength). We are moving away from that model to one where the fighter mix will be biased towards air-superiority + multirole aircraft. The MiG-27s will be gone within 5 years, and the Jaguars within 10-15. Every IAF pilot going forward will have to be proficient in air superiority missions.

(3) I'm not saying that existing strike assets will not be used at all. But the MiG-27/Jaguars will probably take heavy losses (in a 2 front war the PAF/PLAAF will have interceptors to spare, and the PLAAF has a very dense SAM environment) and their effectiveness will degrade very quickly unlike 1965/1971.

(4) Taking out airfields is a two way street. If we use cruise/ballistic missiles to do the needful, rest assured the other side will too.

The point I'm trying to make is that 100+ ASRAAM armed Hawks will be very welcome (as will any additional BVR equipped Tejas Mk1)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2015 00:02

titash wrote:Karan-ji, that article is over a decade old. A lot has changed since then; the PAF's modern fighters are now BVR capable and numerically stronger than ever, and the PLAAF's capabilities have grown (or are poised to grow) exponentially.


Titash saar, it doesn't matter the article is a decade old. See the "mindset" that drives operational capability acquisition in the IAF & what the IAF's thinking process is.

That's the context.

Its like saying "1971 was four decades back, no relevance for today". Of course it has relevance today.

The IAF is an offensive AF. It plans for & intends to fight an offensive war.

Next, what is this about "PLAAFs modern fighters are BVR capable" - the number of Bisons India has are in all likelihood more than the number of BVR armed PAF fighters given reports that even early blocks of JF-17s were not BVR capable, PR claims apart. Factor in serviceability rates, their aircraft on average being far older than ours & with less local infra to back them up as well.

Coming to China - please understand. The IAF speaks of the Su-30 MKI as an Air Dominance Fighter yet it has Kh-59s, Kh-29s, LGBs, Brahmos all earmarked for it. Why? Because air dominance can be achieved by either glorious battles in the air or the less glamorous but vital strikes on enemy nodes and infrastructure such as AFB - referred to as counter-air ops.

The point is that even in your defensive sceneario, to defend, the IAF will have to take the offensive aspect. And they do train for it as its critical to their core doctrine.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 21 Mar 2015 00:08

titash wrote:(2) We are moving away from the heydays of having a dedicated strike force...at some point, we had 120+ Jaguars and 140+ MiG-27s (accounting for roughly more than a third of the IAF's fighter strength). We are moving away from that model to one where the fighter mix will be biased towards air-superiority + multirole aircraft. The MiG-27s will be gone within 5 years, and the Jaguars within 10-15. Every IAF pilot going forward will have to be proficient in air superiority missions.


The newer aircraft coming in, have far more combat capability baked into their multirole genes than the "dedicated strike aircraft". A single Su-30 can carry several times the payload of its predecessors and with far more sensor capability to guide it to boot.
While AF pilots may train for dual roles, some tasking as the primary tasking will remain a priority.

(3) I'm not saying that existing strike assets will not be used at all. But the MiG-27/Jaguars will probably take heavy losses (in a 2 front war the PAF/PLAAF will have interceptors to spare, and the PLAAF has a very dense SAM environment) and their effectiveness will degrade very quickly unlike 1965/1971.


This is true of any earlier gen aircraft in a dense AD environment and which is why the MiG-27s were upgraded and the Jaguars are being upgraded to DARIN-3 with internal SPJ.

(4) Taking out airfields is a two way street. If we use cruise/ballistic missiles to do the needful, rest assured the other side will too.


Both sides will use AD and multiple basing to mitigate this.

The point I'm trying to make is that 100+ ASRAAM armed Hawks will be very welcome (as will any additional BVR equipped Tejas Mk1)


Invariably the case.. any and every combat boost is a plus. The Hawk though has severe limitations in that it can't engage and disengage at will (unlike the faster aircraft which can choose to disengage if the fight isn't going their way) and its limited situational awareness (it will need at least a datalink to be at least aware of what;s going on- even the DARIN3 Jags are getting the EL/M-2032). Its payload is limited, its sensor/EW capability too and at best, it can be compared to a downgraded Bison! A limited boost.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2015 06:55

titash wrote: can't resist stirring the pot a bit (yes, I am on vacation).

Thank you for saying this because the statement below has no basis in fact other than your need to stir the pot while on vacation.

titash wrote:(2) We are moving away from the heydays of having a dedicated strike force.


To be very honest with you - BRFites live in a lucky era of benevolent admins. I used to have a very short fuse when people came up with statements like "We are moving away from blah blah blah" - where the "we" pretends to represent IAF policy while voicing a personal opinion. The lesser the bullshitting, the greater the amount of factual information, but also fewer active members and less trolling.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 21 Mar 2015 07:53

100+ mig27 will retire in 5 yrs and all people can yell is tejas bad tejas bad.

This is worse than namo bad namo bad

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 21 Mar 2015 09:42

Mig-27 fleet it not more than 60 aircraft atm ....though yes LCA Mk1 is the right replacement for the 27 and 21 for this decade.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 21 Mar 2015 10:26

All in all I see a need for more then 250 LCA Mk 1s for the IAF. The 21 & 27 can be replaced on a 1 to 1 basis and the force will get a major capability boost. The Mk 2 should be good enough for the Jaguar, 29 & M2K, replacements. In case the AMCA is delayed beyond 2030.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 21 Mar 2015 15:42

The problem as I see is not the Tejas that IAF needs but how much it can get per year from its production agency , I am not here to bash HAL but if we go by the sole agency production of MKI which is the biggest thing it did in past 15 years , even very late they couldn't make more than 12-14 aircraft.

So if that is the upper limit HAL can make in its 15 years of journey with helping had from OEM then getting 250 LCA Mk1 even if HAL was to make the same number today would take 15-17 years !

Tejas numbers is as much of suspect of IAF intent as much as it is suspect about the ability of production agency to deliver the number in time IAF wants which is to co-incide with the number plating of its squadron it plans to do in next 10 years

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rakall » 21 Mar 2015 16:02

Austin wrote:The problem as I see is not the Tejas that IAF needs but how much it can get per year from its production agency , I am not here to bash HAL but if we go by the sole agency production of MKI which is the biggest thing it did in past 15 years , even very late they couldn't make more than 12-14 aircraft.

So if that is the upper limit HAL can make in its 15 years of journey with helping had from OEM then getting 250 LCA Mk1 even if HAL was to make the same number today would take 15-17 years !

Tejas numbers is as much of suspect of IAF intent as much as it is suspect about the ability of production agency to deliver the number in time IAF wants which is to co-incide with the number plating of its squadron it plans to do in next 10 years


IAF & MoD want HAL to increase production rate to 16 Tejas per year..
HAL is ready to do that if more orders for Mk1 are placed..
HAL will do it for Mk2 as large orders are assured (enough leadtime is there for Mk2 production line)

IAF thinking whether it can/wants to order more Mk1..

"Chicken-Egg" !!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 21 Mar 2015 16:38

Well they wanted MKI production to rise to 14-16 like a decade back when I read one interview but they partially achieved that figure recently.

I am sure they want to do it but intent has to be matched by capability.

How many Jags does HAL produce per year after 3 decades of production ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby putnanja » 21 Mar 2015 20:13

Austin wrote:Well they wanted MKI production to rise to 14-16 like a decade back when I read one interview but they partially achieved that figure recently.

I am sure they want to do it but intent has to be matched by capability.

How many Jags does HAL produce per year after 3 decades of production ?


How many Jags have been ordered at one go? The Jaguars have been ordered in small batches over the last decades. No one will create assembly line to manufacture just one year worth of orders. They can, but the cost will be very high!

Added later: One also now needs to look at Hawk as the benchmark for setting up assembly line. LCA is modelled after Hawk assembly line as per HAL. Also, manufacturing techniques have improved a lot over the years, and HAL too now has modernized its factory floor. One of my close relatives in HAL in 80s and 90s used to tell me that a door from one jaguar wouldn't fit another one as each part was hand machined! But now, there are CNC machines which do lots of these work.

Earlier, majority of the parts used to be made in HAL from scratch. HAL has now outsourced lots of parts now, and is becoming more of an integrator. So increasing production is not just HAL investing, but also ensuring that all its suppliers can ramp up production at the same rate. And that won't happen if your orders are enough for just one year's production.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 22 Mar 2015 00:03

This post has been edited and updated on 22.03.2015

Whether people accept this or not, the reality is that '250 LCA in IAF inventory' ship has long sailed. And will not return.

Tejas was supposed to replace the Mig-21 in IAF service but guess which a/c has actually replaced the older Mig-21? Su-30 MKI!

There are 8.5 Squadrons (1 x Mig-21 Bis, 4.5 x Mig-21 M/MF, 3 x Mig-27ML) which will require replacement over next 5-7 years; 4.5 squadron worth will come from balance Su-30 MKI while 2 x Tejas Squadrons have already been planned. The balance two squadrons, I think IAF hopes to fill with MMRCA (Su-30 MKI or Rafale or take your pick). But the replacement is not happening on one-to-one basis. So, while 8.5 squadrons will draw-down, 7.5 fresh replacements will happen. Additional one squadron is that of Tejas Mk1 already under raising. But it will even out in the end. Though, there will still be number-plated squadrons in IAF service.

That leaves us with 6 x Mig-21 Bison + 2 x Mig-27 UPG squadrons in phase 2 of re-equipment. Here, 4 x MMRCA + 4 x Tejas Mk2 are expected to fill the boots.

In this entire calculation, ONLY Su-30 MKI and Rafale are certainty. Tejas Mk1 will go through teething problems of production and maintenance while Tejas Mk2 is a pipe-dream. Phase 02 of the re-equipment will involve taking away your front-line assets and you would want a credible solution for it; this, in my opinion, is what makes IAF desperate for MMRCA and Rafale at that.

The above exercise will take the squadron strength to 38.5 squadrons by 2025. There is scope for more 2 x Tejas Mk1 squadrons here.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_23360 » 22 Mar 2015 06:19

rohitvats wrote:
Tejas Mk1 will go through teething problems of production and maintenance while Tejas Mk2 is a pipe-dream.


WOW, what a statement.

Tejas learning curve has already reached it's maturing point, MK2 is CERTAINTY not just some pipe dream, only threat to that is IAF's changes in requirement.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 22 Mar 2015 09:23

akshat.kashyap wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Tejas Mk1 will go through teething problems of production and maintenance while Tejas Mk2 is a pipe-dream.


WOW, what a statement.

Tejas learning curve has already reached it's maturing point, MK2 is CERTAINTY not just some pipe dream, only threat to that is IAF's changes in requirement.


My apologies, pipe dream is a wrong word to use. My comment was with respect to timeline for FOC. Which is given TODAY as 2022.

Only threat to MK2 is what has been promised as development path and whether associated timeline will match the same. But it seems IAF and DRDO are on same page so it should pan out as expected.

But from IAF's perspectives, it still has to ensure that it has resources to cater to any delays + the initial time period required for the platform to stabilize. And that is where MMRCA is a must.

A better bet is the recent news about Mk1.5...two additional squadrons of this type between 2020-22 should give buffer to Mk2 and also allow IAF to expand beyond 41 squadrons a bit earlier.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 22 Mar 2015 10:43

^Even if a Rafale assembly line is set up by HAL, but the time they are producing in numbers, we will have the Mk2 production line ready for numbers as well. Coupled with a cut-throat prices charged by the French (which all Rafale fanboys conveniently forget), it will make sure that we only have a handful of the gold-plated Sub-5th-gen toys and that it will NEVER be available in the numbers required (2-front war) and that firing each missile is a financial hit in itself (crazy expensive weapons, which will happen even if the original/cheaper deal is somehow accomplished).

Besides nothing is sure about MMRCA. Currently there is no sign of the deal being signed (particularly in the budget). So, this wet-dream of a Rafale powered 45 squadron IAF will remain just that.


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