Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 13 Sep 2015 21:28

Jagan wrote:
deejay wrote:Unfortunately in today's scenario pilots are getting trifurcated before they commence flying. This does not test a pilots capability to grasp quickly and move in to fighters. Ideally IAF would want the best among trainees to be fighter pilots. Today, that is not happening.


I heard that they were being trifuricated after the Basic Flying Stage. The way I interpret the above is that they allocate who goes to Fighters/Helis/Transports BEFORE they start the Basic Flying Training? How are they doing that?


These policies are in flux. Both of these have happened but I am told it is before Basic Stage now. I am not sure but my guess is NDA merit and first term merit for CDS types.

Edit: I could be wrong on the time of trifurcation. I am on "hearsay" from a current instructor but I could have got it wrong. So this needs checking.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2015 05:04

Viv S wrote:
shiv wrote:The IAF is never without an aerobatic team. The public may not see it but it is always there.

All IAF pilots are trained in and practice formation flying. Its a basic part of the curriculum. Expecting to sharpen it through exposure to a highly specialized display team (how would that work?) is a dubious notion.


"Dubious notion"? :lol: Rhetoric cannot take the place of fact. Nothing dubious or notional here. The larger the team the higher the skill level and practice required and the greater the number of pilots who are honed, apart from the fact that public displays of 6 or 9 aircraft serve as a great inspiration for the public.


Viv S wrote:On the contrary, I'm saying the display team has a limited direct impact on recruiting efforts in this age of Youtube and HDTV, unlike the 80s & 90s when the general public had minimal exposure to the air force. Its a good-to-have option but definitely not a urgent must-have.

There is no comparison between a live display and one on YouTube. Only someone who has never experienced a live display will imagine that there is little difference between a screen and a live display.

Viv S wrote:As for why the aircraft should be a domestic type, I believe the average citizen would (or at least should) take greater pride in an Indian pilot flying a true Indian aircraft (not one just locally assembled), serving as a symbol of industrial achievement not just piloting achievement. And on overseas trips the SKAT may actually help our exports by showcasing an aircraft.
There is truth in this argument but it is the skill and excitement of piloting that is being highlighted by a display team. You are saying that this should be done away with if there is no indigenous aircraft. I have rarely heard a better example of "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater" (We could agree to disagree rather than making endless, pointless rhetorical arguments)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 14 Sep 2015 12:26

shiv wrote:"Dubious notion"? :lol: Rhetoric cannot take the place of fact. Nothing dubious or notional here. The larger the team the higher the skill level and practice required and the greater the number of pilots who are honed, apart from the fact that public displays of 6 or 9 aircraft serve as a great inspiration for the public.

The IAF has hundreds of pilots organised into many dozens of squadrons. How many of them have ever or will ever be posted to the SKAT? We could wait on confirmation, but I think you'd agree the answer is - relatively few. Does that mean that the remainder are sub-par when it comes to formation flying insofar as their combat role is concerned? Keep in mind, they all regularly train in formation flying and in conditions that are often just as dicey. An apt example being the training sortie resulting in the tragic C-130J crash (formation flight in an ungainly 30 ton transport at 300ft AGL over uneven terrain).

There is no comparison between a live display and one on YouTube. Only someone who has never experienced a live display will imagine that there is little difference between a screen and a live display.

And I can tell you the vast majority of people who appear for the AFCAT or NDA exam have never seen the Surya Kirans perform in person. [In fact, everyone I've met that has seen the SKAT perform has done so either at Bangalore (Aero India) or New Delhi (Republic Day) and none of them were youngsters.] But a good number have watched (and been inspired by) IAF videos on TV and the internet.

There is truth in this argument but it is the skill and excitement of piloting that is being highlighted by a display team. You are saying that this should be done away with if there is no indigenous aircraft. I have rarely heard a better example of "Throwing the baby out with the bathwater"

At no point did I say that the SKAT should be permanently disbanded. What I did say was that an aerobatics team wasn't an urgent requirement, unlike JTs for regular training. And deferring its renewal until the IJT or Tejas trainer was available would have preferrable to looking like an imitation of the Red Arrows.

(I will however admit I'm perhaps not looking at it as dispassionately as I should. But when you see the Korean display team fly the T-50, the Brazilian the Super Tucano, the Spanish the C-101, while the Indians don't just fly a British jet, we're happy to fly a British jet, it sticks in the craw.)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2015 14:07

Viv S wrote:The IAF has hundreds of pilots organised into many dozens of squadrons. How many of them have ever or will ever be posted to the SKAT?


Seeing that you did not respond to a video based question I asked you let me describe the video to you. It shows a Canberra, a MiG 25, MiG 21, MiG 23, MiG 27, Hunter, Gnat and Mirage 2000 in formation. Another video shows two Mirage 2000s in formation with a HPT 32. What makes you imagine that formation flying is the sole prerogative of the Surya Kirans? Now that is what i call a dubious notion. Everyone does it. A dedicated team just does bigger formations in more complex manoeuvres for public displays. Check the images below.

Viv S wrote:And I can tell you the vast majority of people who appear for the AFCAT or NDA exam have never seen the Surya Kirans perform in person. [In fact, everyone I've met that has seen the SKAT perform has done so either at Bangalore (Aero India) or New Delhi (Republic Day) and none of them were youngsters.] But a good number have watched (and been inspired by) IAF videos on TV and the internet.


Your personal experiences, awesome and impressive as they sound, are restricted and anecdotal nevertheless. It still does not mean that live demonstrations are not better than screens. Neither does it mean that such shows can be replaced by YouTube. You will not even be able to make a list of the occasions on which minor airshows with a formation flypast with aerobatics are held in military academies, passing out parades, air force day events and air base events in various parts of the country where children of air force base personnel and their friends are able to see them. These events are common, occurring several times a year, and practice sessions are viewed by the public outside the air bases just as people view the practice sessions outside Yelahanka or over Delhi. You claim to know what others know from TV and the net but you have yourself missed it both live and on the internet. I am astounded at your confident claims of knowing where other people get their information from.

Clearly you have not met any people who were at the following events and you do not seem to recall them either. All taken by BRFites and hi res versions are in the BR image galleries.

Air Force day 2006 Hindon
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Air Force day 2006 Hindon
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Chennai Airshow
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Chennai Airshow
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Chennai Airshow
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Chennai Airshow
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Hyderabad Airshow
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Hyderabad Airshow
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Hyderabad Airshow
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Hyderabad airshow
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Mumbai Airshow
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 14 Sep 2015 15:18

shiv wrote:Seeing that you did not respond to a video based question I asked you let me describe the video to you. It shows a Canberra, a MiG 25, MiG 21, MiG 23, MiG 27, Hunter, Gnat and Mirage 2000 in formation. Another video shows two Mirage 2000s in formation with a HPT 32. What makes you imagine that formation flying is the sole prerogative of the Surya Kirans? Now that is what i call a dubious notion. Everyone does it. A dedicated team just does bigger formations in more complex manoeuvres for public displays.

My point exactly. What those videos definitely disprove is that a squadron for aerobatics is essential to retain competency with regard to formation flying. Those capabilities will continue to be taught well and practiced well, even in the absence of the Surya Kiran team.

Your personal experiences, awesome and impressive as they sound, are restricted and anecdotal nevertheless. It still does not mean that live demonstrations are not better than screens. Neither does it mean that such shows can be replaced by YouTube. You will not even be able to make a list of the occasions on which minor airshows with a formation flypast with aerobatics are held in military academies, passing out parades, air force day events and air base events in various parts of the country where children of air force base personnel and their friends are able to see them.

With all due respect, the air force's current recruiting pool belongs to my generation not yours.

Of my childhood growing up in cantonments, three years was spent on an air force base. Walking/riding to and back from school on a road parallel to the runway (50m open separation) meant watching jets (usually MiG-21s) take off and land at close quarters practically every single day. Flypast were a routine affair but not a patch on the spectacle of night flying. (And in retrospect, yes it was all pretty awesome).

But neither I nor any of the classful schoolful of AF children that I spent my days with, ever saw a Surya Kiran display team. And no, it didn't diminish the experience in the least.

Also, flypasts at military academies and passing out parades have little to do with fostering fresh recruitment. They serve an entirely different purpose.

These events are common, occurring several times a year, and practice sessions are viewed by the public outside the air bases just as people view the practice sessions outside Yelahanka or over Delhi. You claim to know what others know from TV and the net but you have yourself missed it both live and on the internet.

The public viewing SKAT events is a tiny proportion of the country's population, even those living in proximity of an IAF base.
Last edited by Viv S on 14 Sep 2015 15:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 14 Sep 2015 15:20

Jagan wrote:
Whether having them for training would change the dynamics for IJT is another question. As far as I can tell sitting on thevpavement 10000 miles away, the IAF isnt dynamic enough to drop the IJT stage entirely for now. An IJT will be added to replace the 16s, whether a Hawk-lite or a HAL product is anybody's guess.


I will not be surprised if the IJT stage is dropped entirely. If and when the IJT is ready to be inducted, it will serve in an AJT role in a parallel stream. i.e the IAF will have a two stage trainign, with the PC-7 being both your basic as well as your Intermediate trainer..


Very interesting. TBH. the IJT stage seemed overcomplex when looked at.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2015 16:00

Viv S wrote:My point exactly. What those videos definitely disprove is that a squadron for aerobatics is essential to retain competency with regard to formation flying. Those capabilities will continue to be taught well and practiced well, even in the absence of the Surya Kiran team.

Yes but even those YouTube videos that you claim your generation are inspired by will not appear unless a dedicated aerobatic team flies. 9 aircraft teams are quite a rarity in any air force and can be formed only by selecting the best of those who have flown well on other aircraft. It requires special teamwork and skills that need to be passed on within the group. Your argument is that in the absence of an Indian made aircraft the IAF should simply allow the large formation aerobatic flying skills to be forgotten and let the people of your generation join those of my generation (ie grow old) saying that "If it ain't Indian we ain't gonna fly it". I do not accept that. The skills for large formation aerobatic flying is not dependent on the country of origin of the plane but the training and skill of pilots who are specially picked from a larger pool of already skilled pilots. Those skills should not be frittered away on the lamest of lame excuses. Of course the Air Force will not make the error that you think they should make but I enjoy pooping on the thread with these pointless arguments just as much as you do. However I will stop with this post. I do not want to convince you as long as I am convinced. You will of course not convince me with repeating the same rhetoric

Viv S wrote:With all due respect, the air force's current recruiting pool belongs to my generation not yours.

Not for long. It shall pass.


Viv S wrote:The public viewing SKAT events is a tiny proportion of the country's population, even those living in proximity of an IAF base.


The percentage of people getting put off by watching (live or on YouTube) aerobatics by non Indian aircraft is small enough to be negligible. That is not a reason to disband aerobatic teams, which is where we started

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 14 Sep 2015 18:01

shiv wrote:You might have seen this video - which country do you believe was being advertised in this - starting from the point linked below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... xN_18#t=34


Wow is that MiG-25 big or what?!?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 14 Sep 2015 20:30

shiv wrote:Yes but even those YouTube videos that you claim your generation are inspired by will not appear unless a dedicated aerobatic team flies. 9 aircraft teams are quite a rarity in any air force and can be formed only by selecting the best of those who have flown well on other aircraft. It requires special teamwork and skills that need to be passed on within the group.

There is no shortage of IAF videos available on the net that feature a regular squadron instead of a dedicated aerobatic team. Heck, that includes most of the videos that you posted. Nine aircraft teams are indeed rare, but that doesn't make them essential. Going a few more years without one isn't going to impair the IAF's combat potential. The pilots can continue to hone their capabilities on Sukhois, Mirages & MiGs, like rest of their brethren.

Your argument is that in the absence of an Indian made aircraft the IAF should simply allow the large formation aerobatic flying skills to be forgotten and let the people of your generation join those of my generation (ie grow old) saying that "If it ain't Indian we ain't gonna fly it". I do not accept that. The skills for large formation aerobatic flying is not dependent on the country of origin of the plane but the training and skill of pilots who are specially picked from a larger pool of already skilled pilots. Those skills should not be frittered away on the lamest of lame excuses.

The crux of your argument is that large scale formation flying by an aerobatic team is essential to IAF training, in the absence of such a squadron, its fighting potential will suffer. An assertion that is false for two simple reasons - 1. Most IAF pilots do not rotate through the SKAT, the way that they do.. say TACDE. SKAT is not a training establishment. 2. Like I said before, formation flying is already part of the curriculum at IAF squadrons. They may not practice nine-aircraft formations, and may fly 'only' six aircraft formations, but that's more than good enough for their actual wartime role (which varies greatly from air shows). Also, my post wasn't about 'if it ain't Indian, we ain't gonna fly it'. It was more on the lines of - 'if its for an air show, rather than air war, waiting another 3-4 years won't bring the sky down'. But I do agree on the last point - we aren't going to find common ground, so we may as well drop it, before it gets pointlessly acrimonious.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya G » 14 Sep 2015 23:15

. Like I said before, formation flying is already part of the curriculum at IAF squadrons. They may not practice nine-aircraft formations, and may fly 'only' six aircraft formations, but that's more than good enough for their actual wartime role


Who developed the protocols for six (or other number) aircraft formations to these squadrons hainji? Each squadron on its own?

Aerobatic units have following major roles:

1. Ceremonial
2. Publicity; including viz recruitment.
3. Develop aerobatic protocols, routines and techniques (for own use and dissemination across air force)
4. Hone skill, confidence and techniques of pilots - a continuous process, helped by rotation of these SKATs in and out to other units.

Additionally the aircraft may be used for operational roles, just like the Sagar Pawan and SKAT aircraft which have been requisitioned for training duty.

Any air force of worth has and should have a worthy aerobatic team.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 00:03

Aditya G wrote:Who developed the protocols for six (or other number) aircraft formations to these squadrons hainji? Each squadron on its own?

Most squadrons flying a single type have a similar or same training syllabus, and they likely collaborate on revisions to that. 'Protocols' for the Su-30MKI were likely devised by No. 20 & No. 24 squadrons, knowledge that was disseminated transfers on subsequent raisings.

And just FYI, if they judged it to provide training value, nothing at all stopped/stops them from flying 10 aircraft Flanker formations.

Aerobatic units have following major roles:

1. Ceremonial
2. Publicity; including viz recruitment.
3. Develop aerobatic protocols, routines and techniques (for own use and dissemination across air force)
4. Hone skill, confidence and techniques of pilots - a continuous process, helped by rotation of these SKATs in and out to other units.

No one's disputing its ceremonial role. The influence of recruitment on the other hand, is hugely overstated.

As for 3 & 4, fact remains, pilot do not rotate through SKAT. It is not a training establishment. Pilots posted to No. 52 squadron serve a regular three year tenure. The FCL course at TACDE, in contrast, has a duration of six months.

Additionally the aircraft may be used for operational roles, just like the Sagar Pawan and SKAT aircraft which have been requisitioned for training duty.

Any air force of worth has and should have a worthy aerobatic team.

Let me take the baton and run with that - any country of worth has and should have a worthy aerobatic team that flies its own 'national' aircraft.

And if switching to a useful operational role in crunch time is of even minimal concern, the smartest decision would be to opt for a Tejas PV6 based trainer.

P.S. - What does the Navy/Naval Aviation's lack of a worthy aerobatic team say about its 'worth'?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2015 03:43

Viv S wrote:The crux of your argument is that large scale formation flying by an aerobatic team is essential to IAF training, in the absence of such a squadron, its fighting potential will suffer.

When you cook up something that I did not say anything you say might be true.

I believe that you have forgotten (or simply unaware) of what separates the army from the air force when you speak of "fighting skills". For the air force "fighting skills" demands "flying skills" first and foremost. Aerobatics is the pinnacle of that skill and an aerobatic team represents the highest evolution of teamwork, discipline and individual flying skills among pilots of an air force. It is about pilots not the plane.

However you say that its all about the country of manufacture of the plane and not the pilots, and flying skills and teamwork are not necessary because they are not required for fighting. Air forces do flying 100% of the time. The fighting is for less than 1%. They need to be able to fly well to fight. The IAF have to fly non Indian aircraft most of the time and your argument that the IAF should not encourage distillation of its pilots' flying skills to a fine art unless they have an Indian aircraft remains as ludicrous as it was when you first said it. Let me not fail to remind you of that fact, lest it be covered over with meaningless rhetoric and a mass of words.

Viv S wrote:What does the Navy/Naval Aviation's lack of a worthy aerobatic team say about its 'worth'?

:D So you don't know about this:
Indian Navy Aerobatic Team
Image
Last edited by shiv on 15 Sep 2015 06:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 15 Sep 2015 03:54

Viv,

In this case, I find your criticism unfair. They had placed firms orders, and HAL could not deliver. SKAT gave a long chance to IJT, to the point that they had to stop flying.

As an aside, I think the new Suryakirans look good.
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 15 Sep 2015 08:35

Well, in the same vein, IAF should also stop fly-past on R-Day till all the a/c in our inventory are of domestic make! And the IA needs to stop parading those western tanks and IFV and guns and what not...after all, even that is 'showcasing' foreign weapons. What self respecting nation does that?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 15 Sep 2015 09:38

^Though Viv's position might be extreme, I would love to see the LCA in those colors (which are magnificent). All that I would ask is that the IAF give LCA the same affection, respect and love it gives to the many imports (I am not criticizing, just stating a ardent wish of mine).

But will we ever, even if LCA comes in fully functional?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 15 Sep 2015 09:41

Found an IJT too in that color.

I too agree an Indian plane would have been more impactful and meaningful.

Return these Hawks when they come on line.

And, yes, where possible, when it makes sense, parade Indian products over imports too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 10:07

shiv wrote:When you cook up something that I did not say anything you say might be true.

I believe that you have forgotten (or simply unaware) of what separates the army from the air force when you speak of "fighting skills". For the air force "fighting skills" demands "flying skills" first and foremost. Aerobatics is the pinnacle of that skill and an aerobatic team represents the highest evolution of teamwork, discipline and individual flying skills among pilots of an air force. It is about pilots not the plane.

Oh I'm all with you on the need for 'flying skills'. Difference is, I believe a Su-30MKI is a perfectly acceptable platform to sharpen them on. And that a pilot who has been a part of an aerobatic team (true for the vast majority of the IAF's pilots) isn't necessarily superior to one who spent that same time training on a high TWR high alpha fighter jet.

However you say that its all about the country of manufacture of the plane and not the pilots, and flying skills and teamwork are not necessary because they are not required for fighting.

I said no such thing. Ever.

:D So you don't know about this:
Indian Navy Aerobatic Team

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that the Sagar Pawan team was disbanded in 2011. Apparently the Navy can afford to wait. Question is, why can't the IAF?
Last edited by Viv S on 15 Sep 2015 11:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 10:55

indranilroy wrote:Viv,

In this case, I find your criticism unfair. They had placed firms orders, and HAL could not deliver. SKAT gave a long chance to IJT, to the point that they had to stop flying.

As an aside, I think the new Suryakirans look good.


Truth is, I wasn't really that happy about the IJTs replacing the Surya Kirans (or even regular Kirans for that matter). Anything that runs on a single Russian engine worries me. Even the Russians appear to share that apprehension - they chose to put two AI-222s (a clean sheet design) in the Yak-130 AJT (instead of using a single non-afterburning RD-33 - same weight & thrust).

But there's no reason why the Tejas couldn't have made the cut. No need for a new radome or IFR or gun testing or most of the other stuff that the IAF insists on making a prerequisite to induction. The ROKAF Black Eagles employ the T-50, an aircraft in the same weight & performance class and powered by the same engine. And everywhere they go, people see not just superb airmanship but also world-class Korean engineering. We may have needed to wait a little longer and invest in larger production capacity but that should have been a small price to pay.
Last edited by Viv S on 15 Sep 2015 11:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 11:01

rohitvats wrote:Well, in the same vein, IAF should also stop fly-past on R-Day till all the a/c in our inventory are of domestic make! And the IA needs to stop parading those western tanks and IFV and guns and what not...after all, even that is 'showcasing' foreign weapons. What self respecting nation does that?


My post that you're referring to, was in itself a 'same vein' response to Aditya's comment about how an air force cannot be worthy without a aerobatic display team.

We've now gone four Republic Days without the Surya Kirans making an appearance, and I think most BRFites would happily go another four years without, if at the end we'd get to see the Tejas (or IJT) in SKAT colours instead.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Gyan » 15 Sep 2015 11:35

I also feel we can do without display team till LCA, IJT or HTT are mature enough to take up that responsibility.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 15 Sep 2015 12:55

Viv S wrote:<SNIP>We've now gone four Republic Days without the Surya Kirans making an appearance, and I think most BRFites would happily go another four years without, if at the end we'd get to see the Tejas (or IJT) in SKAT colours instead.


I'm glad we live in a world where what most BRFites thinks matters zilch when it comes to armed forces. Were these opinions to be penned down on a piece of paper, they would not be worth the paper itself.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 13:04

rohitvats wrote:I'm glad we live in a world where what most BRFites thinks matters zilch when it comes to armed forces. Were these opinions to be penned down on a piece of paper, they would not be worth the paper itself.


Lets shut down the forum then, it may be a waste of bandwidth. The public awareness aspect can be served by other sections of the BR website. What's the point really. The armed forces will do what they will. As will the govt.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Surya » 15 Sep 2015 14:35

Again IJT would have not made it to SKAT for a loooong time

they will not take a new aircraft with a new engine

With all the things money is needed for - SKAT could have waited

Having said that the new colors look good

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 15 Sep 2015 14:48

Viv S wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I'm glad we live in a world where what most BRFites thinks matters zilch when it comes to armed forces. Were these opinions to be penned down on a piece of paper, they would not be worth the paper itself.


Lets shut down the forum then, it may be a waste of bandwidth. The public awareness aspect can be served by other sections of the BR website. What's the point really. The armed forces will do what they will. As will the govt.


Why are you conflating the need for forum and quality of posts on the forum? My comment was about the latter and not the forum. The forum exists as a platform to exchange news and opinion - it is a different matter that most of these opinions are nothing but hot air and bereft of any logic or reasoning. As for wasting the bandwidth and all that, it is a voluntary activity to come here and post and read. You can rest that part of the argument.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 15:14

rohitvats wrote:Why are you conflating the need for forum and quality of posts on the forum? My comment was about the latter and not the forum. The forum exists as a platform to exchange news and opinion - it is a different matter that most of these opinions are nothing but hot air and bereft of any logic or reasoning.

The armed forces don't take note of high quality posts here either AFAIK.

As to the other part, it isn't illogical to assert that an aerobatics team costing $500 mil, needn't be an immediate priority for the country. Nor is it unreasonable to expect a national aerial display unit that routinely flies abroad, to perform in a nationally designed and built jet (as most of its peers do).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 15 Sep 2015 18:32

Isn't a display team also about winning young hearts and future pilots? Would the general public wowing at the display and children going home dreaming being a pilot, be really worried about where the plane was made (which is India, btw) or whether the tyre was made in India? They'll just be exclaiming at the skills of the desi pilot.

I'd, anyday, be happy to see an aerobatics display than not. Who cares if it is Hawk or IJT or whatever?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 15 Sep 2015 18:45

^It matters. We need the kids watching this not just to aspire to become pilots (apparently, they need not be nationalistic enough to prefer indigenous platforms), but we also need them to aspire to become aeronautical engineers.

The fact that such a thought is alien to many on this forum is itself a testament to our pathetic industrial culture.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2015 18:54

Viv S wrote:Oh I'm all with you on the need for 'flying skills'. Difference is, I believe a Su-30MKI is a perfectly acceptable platform to sharpen them on. And that a pilot who has been a part of an aerobatic team (true for the vast majority of the IAF's pilots) isn't necessarily superior to one who spent that same time training on a high TWR high alpha fighter jet.


The question is how to prevent the Su 30 pilots from feeling shame and embarrassment because they are flying an imported aircraft? How to protect them against bitter criticism from patriots whose blood boils at the use of foreign aircraft for aerobatic practice. The idea that the teams can simply be disbanded in the absence of an Indian aircraft is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard and would normally dismiss the idea as a waste of time. But I continue to discuss this nonsense only to prove that I too can mindlessly enjoy indulging in endless rhetoric, semantic hair splitting, clever wording of sentences and bait-and-switch debating tactics that are needed to convert a simple personal opinion into some kind of recommendation of great wisdom coming from the heart of a bigger-than-anyone else patriot whose heart is torn asunder by the sight of pilots flying non Indian planes. I will carry this discussion on forever and not agree with your viewpoint even for a millisecond - seeing that you seem to revel in this sort or argument as much as I do. It may not be the right thing for this forum and thread - but we will see where it goes. You have an opinion. I have mine. But if you want us to continue to poop on this thread over the issue I am game. Are we now into the third page "debating" this crap? Someone count and tell me - I need to reserve my energy for being clever and argumentative.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 15 Sep 2015 19:13

Viv S brings out the need for India to use Indian products. There was a time for imports - now it is time for Indian products - Arihant, Sitara, Tejas, Arjun, Vikrant, Trishul, Akash, Astra, Nirbhaya, INSAS, Excalibur and so on. Putting up an aerobatic time using an Indian aircraft may be one way of underscoring India's priorities. The pendulum has swung so far on imports that it is time for extreme measures to restore our stature and also restore economic sanity. Why pay development costs for a weapon system that could also be sold to China and Pakistan? Why not spend the same money and develop the same product in house?

Or we can remain enslaved to foreign vendors and every time there is a need to project power, we can go around with a begging bowl to ask supplier nations for permission to respond/proactively strike.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 15 Sep 2015 19:14

I left out the Shivaliks (over the Talwar class), the Kolkatas and so on.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 15 Sep 2015 19:18

Yes AM, we want them to be Engineers too. I've seen how my children's reaction has evolved having taken them to airshows every year. Believe me they want to be pilots first. Perhaps in a few years that might change. Similarly, I always wanted to be a fighter pilot wowing at the Republic Day flypast, but ended up an engineer. Still I did some flying, eventually. Always the first dream!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 19:23

shiv wrote:The idea that the teams can simply be disbanded in the absence of an Indian aircraft is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard and would normally dismiss the idea as a waste of time.

Your conviction almost makes it sound as if the Thunderbolts weren't disbanded leaving the IAF without a display team for 7 years. Or that Surya Kirans haven't been missing for the last 5 years. Or that the Sagar Pawan isn't still disbanded. Training activities have still continued, and recuitment has actually risen (albeit from different factors).

If you think its 'ridiculous' to wait for an Indian aircraft before restarting a previously disbanded unit performing a ceremonial/PR function, that's fine. Your opinion.

Are we now into the third page "debating" this crap? Someone count and tell me - I need to reserve my energy for being clever and argumentative.

Just a reminder; our conversation started with you replying to my post, not the other way round.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2015 19:30

If an Indian product is not available for a certain purpose the argument is that the purpose that the non Indian substitute product serves should simply be cancelled and set aside while we wait for an Indian product to arrive. Since we are speaking of personal opinions here - I am certain we can cancel all air force, army and navy training and parades that involve the use of non Indian equipment. That is a ridiculous over reaction but I argue that it follows naturally from the hurt and disappointment I feel in my heart at seeing the Indian armed forces using imported stuff Surely no one can object, My heart is in the right place no?.

While we all have a right to wear our patriotism on our foreheads let us not forget that the original argument was that any display team that has non Indian aircraft should be disbanded. That is fine as an opinion, and my opinion is that I disagree. Gradually switching away from the original argument of "disbanding and cancelling" displays on the basis of country of design to the emotional appeal that we all should unite and shed a tear for the nation and encourage the use of indigenous products is a specious deviation from what was originally said.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2015 19:33

Viv S wrote:
Are we now into the third page "debating" this crap? Someone count and tell me - I need to reserve my energy for being clever and argumentative.

Just a reminder; our conversation started with you replying to my post, not the other way round.

Yes it did. It was your post that I disagree with that I responded to. But you seemed to want to debate that and I have helped you out.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 19:41

JTull wrote:Isn't a display team also about winning young hearts and future pilots? Would the general public wowing at the display and children going home dreaming being a pilot, be really worried about where the plane was made (which is India, btw) or whether the tyre was made in India? They'll just be exclaiming at the skills of the desi pilot.

Wouldn't kids feel the same on seeing Sukhois, Mirages, MiGs etc too? Aircraft that are based all over the country. On the other hand only the fortunate folks living in Bangalore really get the chance to see the SKAT in action.

I'd, anyday, be happy to see an aerobatics display than not. Who cares if it is Hawk or IJT or whatever?

That's true. All the same, the team represents India overseas. When, for example, they travel to Farnborough or Paris I'd like them to stand out in the Tejas, rather than rely on the paint pattern to distinguish themselves from their British peers.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 19:54

shiv wrote:If an Indian product is not available for a certain purpose the argument is that the purpose that the non Indian substitute product serves should simply be cancelled and set aside while we wait for an Indian product to arrive.

If the purpose is non-essential and the Indian alternative close to fruition, then yes the import should be cancelled.

Since we are speaking of personal opinions here - I am certain we can cancel all air force, army and navy training and parades that involve the use of non Indian equipment. That is a ridiculous over reaction but I argue that it follows naturally from the hurt and disappointment I feel in my heart at seeing the Indian armed forces using imported stuff Surely no one can object, My heart is in the right place no?.

Parade equipment is generally borrowed from the active inventory and merely polished up prior to use. If it required shelling out $500 million on brand new imported tanks & guns specifically for the parade, then yes it wouldn't be ridiculous to question it.

If this had been about requisitioning a few Hawks from a training squadron for a parade, there'd be no dispute.

While we all have a right to wear our patriotism on our foreheads let us not forget that the original argument was that any display team that has non Indian aircraft should be disbanded.

The 'original argument' was about how we could have afforded to wait for another 3 years for an Indian aircraft before restarting the SKAT squadron.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 15 Sep 2015 19:58

Viv S wrote:
JTull wrote:Isn't a display team also about winning young hearts and future pilots? Would the general public wowing at the display and children going home dreaming being a pilot, be really worried about where the plane was made (which is India, btw) or whether the tyre was made in India? They'll just be exclaiming at the skills of the desi pilot.

Wouldn't kids feel the same on seeing Sukhois, Mirages, MiGs etc too? Aircraft that are based all over the country. On the other hand only the fortunate folks living in Bangalore really get the chance to see the SKAT in action.

Not just in Bangalore. Remember that Kiran crash in Hyderabad few years ago? SKAT has been in action in many places including Hyderabad, Singapore, Malaysia. Wiki is quoted that SKAT did upto 30 shows a year.

I'd, anyday, be happy to see an aerobatics display than not. Who cares if it is Hawk or IJT or whatever?

That's true. All the same, the team represents India overseas. When, for example, they travel to Farnborough or Paris I'd like them to stand out in the Tejas, rather than rely on the paint pattern to distinguish themselves from their British peers.


I thought you just said that SKAT only perform in Bangalore?

Are you typing faster than you can think?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 15 Sep 2015 20:18

Viv S wrote:The 'original argument' was about how we could have afforded to wait for another 3 years for an Indian aircraft before restarting the SKAT squadron.


Aaah :idea: I see now. That was the original argument. I must have misunderstood because your first post, which I responded to was as follows. I could only see hyperbole and emotion filled rhetoric with a needless pompous swipe at anyone who may have felt happy that they might have a chance to see IAF pilots doing some beautiful flying displays.

viewtopic.php?p=1900216#p1900216
Viv S wrote:I never thought I'd say this about something related to the IAF, but I'm well and truly disgusted today. Seeing the national display team fly & advertise a foreign jet, is simply shameful.

Its one thing for countries that don't have a national aerospace industry, but to transition from a domestic type to a foreign one! Worst part is that people are actually happy about this new development.

May as well put a BAE logo on the IAF flight suits and get the company to pay for advertising.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 20:22

JTull wrote:Not just in Bangalore. Remember that Kiran crash in Hyderabad few years ago? SKAT has been in action in many places including Hyderabad, Singapore, Malaysia. Wiki is quoted that SKAT did upto 30 shows a year.

I thought you just said that SKAT only perform in Bangalore?

You're mixing up two different things - PR events & ceremonial/representative roles.

- You were talking about how seeing the SKAT in action inspires little kids. Unless you live in Bangalore and have an Aero India pass, or live in proximity to an military academy or some other similar establishment (on Army Day/AF Day), you are unlikely to get the opportunity to see them.

- When the team travels overseas - Singapore, Malaysia, France.. or wherever, its not doing so to inspire the younger generation (not our younger generation anyway). Its representing the country, not unlike a warship making a port call in a foreign land.

(Q. Where did you take your kids to see the air shows? Unless you reside in the West, I'd bet it was in a metro - most likely Bangalore. ???)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 15 Sep 2015 20:29

shiv wrote:Aaah :idea: I see now. That was the original argument. I must have misunderstood because your first post, which I responded to was as follows. I could only see hyperbole and emotion filled rhetoric with a needless pompous swipe at anyone who may have felt happy that they might have a chance to see IAF pilots doing some beautiful flying displays.

I guess it was emotional and do apologize to those who's happy emotions were affected by my angry emotions. My argument vis a vis the debate - 'should have waited for and ordered an Indian aircraft instead', however remains unchanged.


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