Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 13 Mar 2014 15:39

The ACM has to look at the big picture. when looking at the suitability of a woman as a fighter pilot. perhaps we can look at forming an experimental unit with female ssc pilots. Mixing male and female and do a long term study. may be 5 years or more. Regardi g the suitability of women in combat jets.

Once the results of the study are known and discussed. onlt then the desision regarding the suitability of woman as combat pilots be made.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2014 19:12

Sid wrote:High Gs in other countries have different effect on their women then women in India? And they don't get pregnant there? And in India if women pilots conceive, who fly transport plane or chopper in their absence? Why allow them to fly at all if that is the case?

What Madrasa logic is this?

And since you are such an expert on recruitment pool in US and India, why don't you educate us on the difference. Looks like our pool is super specialized then all the countries listed below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_pi ... ter_Pilots

Seriously what are you trying to pull here by defending a stupid statement by ACM?


Dude, first check yourself out of your madrasa and then come and pontificate on BRF. If it comes to the ACM and your asinine behaviour, it becomes easy to determine who was being stupid (i.e. you) and who was not (the ACM).

The US spends far more than India on its military. It can field far more pilots and even spare many more if a bunch call in sick than India does. It even has the ANG to call upon which in turn feeds off the massive US civilian pilot pool.

Other nations have a far smaller recruitment pool than Indias, they have operational constraints and relax the criteria as well.

In high G, bleeding is a no no. Think about what that means. How many days off that pilot will have to do, especially when a pilot in the IAF typically pulls at least 180 hours per year to remain current and most IAF aircraft dont have simulators. They have to fly every week. Senior pilots pull far more than that. 180 hours translates to 360 sorties per year at the typical half hour sortie level for most of our MiGs, as versus the longer ranged Su's.

Transport pilots dont face those issues of being in situations where vascular issues can cause significant problems, which is why the IAF is ok with those.

In combat, IAF pilots had to be pulled off from ops because minor vascular problems escalated into big ones in the high stress combat situation. Blood loss is not a small matter.

It would be ok to spoonfeed even arrogant folks like you. But you begin with a claim attacking the ACM for being stupid with arrogant presumptions.

Next, you'll be telling us that because many other countries have conscription, India should do so too. Context matters, as does common sense.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sid » 13 Mar 2014 20:31

Karan M wrote:
Sid wrote:High Gs in other countries have different effect on their women then women in India? And they don't get pregnant there? And in India if women pilots conceive, who fly transport plane or chopper in their absence? Why allow them to fly at all if that is the case?

What Madrasa logic is this?

And since you are such an expert on recruitment pool in US and India, why don't you educate us on the difference. Looks like our pool is super specialized then all the countries listed below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_pi ... ter_Pilots

Seriously what are you trying to pull here by defending a stupid statement by ACM?


Dude, first check yourself out of your madrasa and then come and pontificate on BRF. If it comes to the ACM and your asinine behaviour, it becomes easy to determine who was being stupid (i.e. you) and who was not (the ACM).

The US spends far more than India on its military. It can field far more pilots and even spare many more if a bunch call in sick than India does. It even has the ANG to call upon which in turn feeds off the massive US civilian pilot pool.

Other nations have a far smaller recruitment pool than Indias, they have operational constraints and relax the criteria as well.

In high G, bleeding is a no no. Think about what that means. How many days off that pilot will have to do, especially when a pilot in the IAF typically pulls at least 180 hours per year to remain current and most IAF aircraft dont have simulators. They have to fly every week. Senior pilots pull far more than that. 180 hours translates to 360 sorties per year at the typical half hour sortie level for most of our MiGs, as versus the longer ranged Su's.

Transport pilots dont face those issues of being in situations where vascular issues can cause significant problems, which is why the IAF is ok with those.

In combat, IAF pilots had to be pulled off from ops because minor vascular problems escalated into big ones in the high stress combat situation. Blood loss is not a small matter.

It would be ok to spoonfeed even arrogant folks like you. But you begin with a claim attacking the ACM for being stupid with arrogant presumptions.

Next, you'll be telling us that because many other countries have conscription, India should do so too. Context matters, as does common sense.


So because I said chief is wrong on his presumptions my statements are asinine and my behavior is arrogant? What that makes you then?

His remarks are offending, plain and simple. You can't prove that wrong by jumping on me and personally attacking me.

If IAF does not have the resources or money to have women fighter pilots then say so. Don't say that because they bleed or get pregnant every fall they can't fly a fighter.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby saps » 13 Mar 2014 22:04

So because I said chief is wrong on his presumptions my statements are asinine and my behavior is arrogant? What that makes you then?

His remarks are offending, plain and simple. You can't prove that wrong by jumping on me and personally attacking me.

If IAF does not have the resources or money to have women fighter pilots then say so. Don't say that because they bleed or get pregnant every fall they can't fly a fighter.


From the little knowledge i have post few interactions:

Women are better suited inherently for G forces. Due to design benefit.

However;

Do you want them in front line squadrons If YES

Whats the employ-ability Or its just for Photo Op scenario like for some of our friendly neighbours ?

How many do they have, do they have regular current flying practice ?

How important continuity would be due to unavoidable breaks !!

How long would the fitness come back post such breaks !! Or would it be reasonable to assume that during their active flying duty, they would sacrifice certain maternal privileges voluntarily !!

Most importantly is our society ready to accept; proud, clear headed, aggressive and assertive women who are ALSO Fighter Pilots !!

Guess; by the time we have answers to these questions; adequate maturity would have been cultivated in our society !! Alongwith most important aspect of INFRASTRUCTURE !!

I am sure we would get there; SLOWLY.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ramana » 13 Mar 2014 22:40

Its good way to limit the resource pool which is small as it is. Fits in with AKA's master plan to cut resources with out appearing to do so.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 15 Mar 2014 09:17

Sid wrote:So because I said chief is wrong on his presumptions my statements are asinine and my behavior is arrogant? What that makes you then?

His remarks are offending, plain and simple. You can't prove that wrong by jumping on me and personally attacking me.


Are you even aware of a concept called logic? The IAF Chief based on a variety of factors that he took into account, said what he did. So you called him stupid and insensitive. My response, was by your standards, from the "madrasa".

So you resorted to abuse from the outset, without even considering the issue, and when you are shown the error of your statements, you complain. To demand civility and respect, do show it to begin with.

And because he spoke the facts, you are "offended". The IAF does not revolve around our "feelings", or what our emotions think are right or wrong. They deal with practical issues.

If IAF does not have the resources or money to have women fighter pilots then say so. Don't say that because they bleed or get pregnant every fall they can't fly a fighter.


Earth to saturn, every AF has a finite set of resources to optimally deploy to get a pool of highly trained operational pilots who have to be available at the GOI/IAF's mercy!!

Women bleeding and becoming pregnant, taking them off the flightline for extended durations, makes them unsuitable for the IAF's operational requirements.

If you can't handle context, you shouldn't be debating anything in the first place. If merely being able to fly fighters is a criteria, then even a journalist can fly a fighter, a 70+ president can fly in a fighter (two have BTW). That does not mean they can be fighter pilots!!!

A fighter pilot, has to be in optimal health, be available throughout the year (as and when the IAF wants him) and has to be trained to extremely demanding standards and serve for a long time (to recoup the huge investments the IAF makes in them).

If women pilots are not available at multiple points of the year thanks to personal health issues, have challenges with work-life balance (which have been noted time & again in the IA for instance), how is it logical for the IAF to commit scarce resources to make a special attempt to get suboptimal results?

Guess what, men don't have it any easier in the IAF either. Flt Lt Nachiketa, thanks to the injuries he suffered in Pak, and after ejection, now flies transports.

BTW, this also brings up yet another issue in our regional context, that of prisoner abuse. But lets leave that out for now.

You are ignoring the facts dear sir, just to assuage your own feelings. Calling the IAF head or me epithets won't change the facts.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby kit » 19 Mar 2014 18:05

Just a question to gurus here. A report on the missing Flight says that Boeing was reportedly able to ascertain the aircraft flight based on communication of its engines via satellites ..something they say was a health monitoring mechanism ..Now does all aircraft have this kind of embedded chips ? If so wont all military deployment be quite visible for a foreign power ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Mar 2014 18:44

kit - they are talking about ACARS - nothing confidential about it. it is a civiliian system used by airlines

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby kit » 19 Mar 2014 18:56

ah.. thank you :) !

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 21 Mar 2014 01:21

Media reports today say that the MOD has approved the IAF acquiring extra 100+ Pilatus trainers,while also allowing HAL to continue development of its own BT.The Extra Pilatus PC-7s may be built at the IAF's own facilities. This is a good decision,taken perhaps a bit late.nevertheless,"better late than never". It also puts HAL on the mat as it has to now deliver on its promises to develop and manufacture a cheaper better trainer than the PC-7.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cybaru » 21 Mar 2014 08:55

Why does IAF need 200 trainers ?????

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rohitvats » 21 Mar 2014 09:24

^^^That decision for additional PC-7 and also allowing HAL to go ahead with BTT-40 is typical of non-confrontational attitude of AK where he has repeatedly shied away from taking tough decisions. With IAF filled to brim with basic trainer once the additional PC-7 come online, who will buy the BTT-40? Is that another exercise in indulging in a science project at the expense of tax-payer's money? AK/MOD should have taken a decision either ways ans stuck with it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 21 Mar 2014 09:28

HAL claim that they can successfully export their bird! What does Scamthony care about? he is retiring from the fray in a matter of days."Apres mois le deluge" is what he thinks,but what the Indian people think is something different....."apres mois le delight!"

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 21 Mar 2014 09:41

I think it would be interesting if the IAF took up manufacture of the Pilatus at one of its BRDs (it could do that) or if the tooling etc were given to a private operator.

I had originally opposed this but now I think that it will only help to expand the aerospace skills signature in India

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 21 Mar 2014 10:02

that Mi17 with the big fuel tanks and rocket pods looks very tfta like a indicised HH60 socom pave hawk :)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cybaru » 21 Mar 2014 19:43

Thanks rohitvats, but seriously. what are we going to do we 200 trainers ? How many students per batch do we get ? Are we going some trainers out with each squadron so they can get their hours? What is the intended purpose ?

Signha, that Mi17 V is the best purchase we may have ever made. The older ones should be upgraded and another 139 added.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby anand_sankar » 21 Mar 2014 20:55

Why almost 200 trainers?

1. We need to train a lot more pilots. Intake can be increased.

2. Trainers get used heavily. More aircraft means flying hours per aircraft gets distributed, thus fleet will last a while. And more numbers cater to maintenance schedules. Batches of trainees need to be trained in a fixed time, they can't wait for aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cybaru » 21 Mar 2014 22:00

anand_sankar wrote:Why almost 200 trainers?

1. We need to train a lot more pilots. Intake can be increased.

2. Trainers get used heavily. More aircraft means flying hours per aircraft gets distributed, thus fleet will last a while. And more numbers cater to maintenance schedules. Batches of trainees need to be trained in a fixed time, they can't wait for aircraft.


Don't trainers have higher airframe hours than regular fighers ? For some reason, the figure of 18000/21000 hours as airframe life is what I remember. You can flog these puppies quite a bit and that is why its strange that we need so many.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_20317 » 21 Mar 2014 22:59

Sylvania Laxman - Ek nahi Cheh. Pure ghar ke badal dalunga.

The Kirans need replacement. PC-7. Hawks just in. Mig 23UB still flying. Mogols too perhaps. And then they have two seaters for Jaguars and Mirages and Harriers and NLCA and MKIs and 29KUBs.

I feel for the poor weapons systems officer. He gets peanuts. Maverick takes the girl. Bahut nainsafi hai bhai.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 22 Mar 2014 08:40

rohitvats wrote:^^^That decision for additional PC-7 and also allowing HAL to go ahead with BTT-40 is typical of non-confrontational attitude of AK where he has repeatedly shied away from taking tough decisions. With IAF filled to brim with basic trainer once the additional PC-7 come online, who will buy the BTT-40? Is that another exercise in indulging in a science project at the expense of tax-payer's money? AK/MOD should have taken a decision either ways ans stuck with it.


Actually its the best possible step for the nation. Firstly, IAF also trains IN, IA, ICG & BSF pilots at BFTS Allahabad/Bamrauli. These forces have expanded massively. For example, IN has grown from 27 Sea Harriers to 45 MiG29 and with Tejas on the way. We need a large pilot pool and any increase of training infrastructure is a wise investment.

Also, as Shiv said, anything that increases aviation, shipbuilding, manufacturing footprint needs encouragement. Nations with leading Aviation Industry allowed export of their second grade aircraft to build expertise in the industry, with the State subsidizing it. Eg RAF did not induct Gnat but allowed export.

I would be happy if HAL or any private sector firm set up a second Dhruv line only for export. There is significant Do228 export scope, that we aggressively did not pursue, and the Swiss firm Ruag has now stepped in to fill the gap.

Certainly money better spent than Right to Food et al schemes

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 22 Mar 2014 09:03

While I support HAL, they have fxxxxx up the HTT. After so many years, they are unable even to select the engine. It leads me to suspect that the only interest of HAL management was to negotiate and give out lucrative engine and other components contract and no interest in HTT per se. As PT-6 is the only viable engine, their negotiations for cuts may not be gaining traction.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 22 Mar 2014 09:30

HTT-40s engine has been selected (about 5 months back).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 22 Mar 2014 09:32

Even then it is a delay of many years. HTT was to fly before first Imported BTT arrived. Anyway, which engine?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 23 Mar 2014 05:53

So we keep bickering amongst ourselves pointing fingers at each other while our biggest threat marches ahead. Is that wise or should we all sit down at one table (like the DDMB) and talk like "Indians" for a change and show the world that we can come to a conclusion and use products like the Arjun, the LCA, the HTT-40. Blame where blame is required but also have the courage to give credit where due.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 23 Mar 2014 08:45

One BTT can train around 10 pilots a year. With 75 BTT, IAF can train 750 pilots a year. So we can and should wait for HTT-40. But simultaneously HAL management should be held accountable and asked why it took them four years to decide which engine to use. I support indigenisation but one cannot be blind to corruption and incompetence of HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 23 Mar 2014 11:03

DRDO should perhaps auction of mature technologies to private players.But how long will the armed forces remain in denial about the corruption in their procurement wings? To avoid inordinate delays, the armed forces need to take an ownership of the designs. It seems that in order to justify selling the National interest (and importing weapon systems) fancy and in some cases unachievable GSQRS are developed for DRDO.

And if a weapon system somehow comes close to delivering the impossible, it is tested till Kingdom come.

This is a sure plan to fail. DRDO must improve but so must the user armed forces. This constant finger pointing only helps the enemy (and the procurement Mafia).

Stop and think, people.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 23 Mar 2014 17:07

Yesterday I saw one Jaguar (Yellow painted) coming to land around Marathahalli. One question, isn't the Jagaur production closed?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 24 Mar 2014 08:55

darin-3 upgrade

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_27862 » 24 Mar 2014 10:20

symontk wrote:Yesterday I saw one Jaguar (Yellow painted) coming to land around Marathahalli. One question, isn't the Jagaur production closed?


Jaguar is going to be around for another 10 years.

It is still the best (aerodynamically) low level penetration platform that IAF has and is very relevant to deep penetration strikes in the Pak scenario. Darin 3 mod gets it up to speed with a reliable and accurate navigation and attack system.

Against ITAR targets, I personally have my doubts on its capability due to mediocre performance at high levels and lack of a serious self defence capability against enemy fighters. Maybe possible as part of an escorted strike package with the Sukhoi/ Rafale/MiG29, boys in a dominated corridor.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 24 Mar 2014 17:27

But will upgrade aircrafts fly in yellow colour, is the entire body being changed? looks like it is

The latest upgrade program DARIN III has also been approved. In addition to new avionics and equipment installed as part of DARIN II upgrade, DARIN III would feature modified avionics architecture, new cockpit with dual SMD, Solid State Flight Data Recorder and Solid State Video Recording System, auto pilot system, integration of new multi-mode radar on Jaguar IS(currently only Jaguar IM are fitted with radars). Major structural modification would be carried out on the air frame to accommodate the radar. Initial Jaguars delivered to IAF were powered by two Adour 804E however further deliveries were powered by Adour Mk811. All the current Jaguars of IAF are powered by Adour Mk811. DARIN III upgrade will cause additional weight problems due to addition of new avionics and radar, resulting in it becoming underpowered.


http://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/12/indian-air-force-darin-upgrades-for-sepecat-jaguar.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 25 Mar 2014 02:33

A friend sent me a depressing pic of a particular burning issue,cobwebbed thinking in officialdom.Ultimately,the buck stops with the MOD,DM and regime of the day.We are now on the brink of a major event change in Indian history,the extermination of much of the Congress and the arrival most likely of a new figure on the stage to lea the nation.It is therefore incumbent upon the former senior officers of the armed forces,thinktanks,defence analysts,concerned members of the establishment,executive and administration,to jointly enlighten the new incoming executive of the crisis at hand and the top priorities ,and pressurise it to take swift decisions for the short,med.,long term timeframes to maintain the capability of the armed forces with a balance of imports,JVs and local systems,establishing a sound foundation for greater local dependence in the design,development and manufacture of weapon systems and defence eqpt. across the board.

The aerospace industry could easily be the sunshine industry for Indian entities.The huge application of UAVs/drones for both civil and military use is just one opportunity where both the pvt. and public sector can collaborate together successfully.One may have to raise FDI too to 51% o allow the huge sums required to boost pvt. industry ,so that they can also match the infrastructure that DPSUs enjoy,built up at huge govt. expense.It is heartening to see Indian manufacturers display wares in the arty/MICV domain,where they've collaborated with foreign manufacturers in evolving designs tailor made for our conditions and requirements.A boost to greater indigenous shipbuilding is also possible with the huge investments in capability made by Pipapav and L&T for example.The will to do so has to be there,otherwise,a few decades from now some of us may still be alive and repeating the same.BRF is now 15+ years on and old timers have been flogging the dead horse all these years without much success!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2014 04:43

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2014 10:07

I have always been with Ajai Shukla and HAL on this one. I was waiting for HAL to release more information about the development through him.

Air force resists Antony’s order for indigenous trainer aircraft

The Indian Air Force (IAF) continues its quest to hand Pilatus Aircraft Ltd of Switzerland a Rs 6,000 contract for 106 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft (BTA), over and above the 75 Pilatus trainers already bought for Rs 3,850 crore (Swiss Franc 557 million). Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is currently developing these 106 trainers in India, a project the IAF is sparing no effort to scuttle.

A new IAF "Request for Information" (RFI) - a pre-tender enquiry - floated on the ministry of defence (MoD) website invites Indian companies to submit preliminary bids to supply the IAF with 106 PC-7 Mk II trainers, in partnership with Pilatus. This envisages the import of an unspecified number of BTAs ready built, with the remainder being assembled in India. In MoD's procurement rule book, this is termed a "Buy & Make (Indian)" acquisition.

In floating this RFI, the IAF has openly defied the MoD. In 2009, while giving nod to the acquisition of 181 trainers, Defence Minister A K Antony ruled that 106 trainers would be built in HAL under the "Make" category, while 75 would be imported. Since then, the IAF has repeatedly sought to subvert this decision. The MoD has confirmed to Business Standard that the 2009 decision to build 106 trainers in HAL, which was taken by the apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), remains valid.

"This RFI is a preliminary inquiry that the IAF has sent out, presumably to enlighten itself. This doesn't mean that an RfP (Request for Proposal, as a defence tender is called) will be issued," said the MoD spokesperson.

The IAF has consistently resisted HAL's indigenous trainer - the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40). As Business Standard reported (July 29, 2013, "Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer") former IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, wrote personally to Antony, claiming that the HTT-40 would be costlier than the PC-7 Mk II. A cost analysis by this newspaper, however, suggested the HAL trainer would be much cheaper over its service life. The MoD did not accept the air chief's request.

The IAF next asked HAL to scuttle its own BTA project and instead build the PC-7 Mk II trainer in Bangalore with Pilatus technology (October 14, 2013, "IAF to HAL: Build Swiss trainer aircraft, don't develop your own"). HAL, which has worked steadily on the HTT-40, flatly rejected this proposition.

Bizarrely, Air Chief Marshal Browne next suggested that the PC-7 Mk II be built in an IAF base repair depots (BRDs). Admitting that BRDs were meant only to maintain and overhaul aircraft and engines, he claimed last October that they could also assemble aircraft. The MoD simply ignored this suggestion, which was hastily rebutted by the IAF's maintenance chief, Air Marshal P Kanakaraj.

Now, with Air Chief Marshal Browne having retired and been cleared by the government to be an ambassador, reportedly to Finland, his successor, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, has proposed that Indian private companies build the PC-7 Mk II with Pilatus technology.

Industry experts say there is little in this proposal for private Indian companies. With each BTA priced at about Rs 35 crore, the 10 per cent profit margin from building 106 aircraft would be barely Rs 370 crore. This is a small compensation for the costs and risks of a company's first foray into aerospace manufacture.

Meanwhile, HAL continues work on the HTT-40. With MoD funding blocked by the IAF, HAL has already committed Rs 137 crore of its own money; and stands ready to allocate another Rs 200 crore. On a recent visit to HAL, Business Standard was briefed that the design of structural components is done; assembly drawings will be done by April. A first flight is targeted for early 2015.

"We had planned to build one flying prototype of the HTT-40 and one ground test specimen. Now, to speed up design and flight testing, HAL will build three flying prototypes and two ground test models," says Prashantsingh Bhadoria, one of HAL's talented young designers who is deputy head of the HTT-40 project.

HAL designers are confident that, given their major role in developing the Tejas fighter; and the Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT) that is nearly complete, there is little doubt that the company will build a successful basic trainer.

IAF planners know that the procurement cost of an aircraft is just one-fifth to one-tenth of the cost of operating it through its service life. For that reason, an indigenous aircraft is significantly cheaper in the long term than an overseas purchase, where the IAF remains dependent for spares, overhauls and upgrades on foreign vendors who invariably jack up prices after the initial sale. HAL designers say they are ensuring a high degree of commonality in parts and sub-systems between the HTT-40 and the IJT. This will reduce production costs and also ease inventory problems in training establishments.

IAF pilots need three types of trainer aircraft. In Stage-1 training, rookie pilots learn basic flying on aircraft like the PC-7 Mk I, and the HTT-40. Stage-2 training involves more complex flying on aircraft like the Kiran Mark 1, or the Sitara IJT. Stage-3 training, which prepares pilots for occupying the cockpits of frontline IAF fighters, is done on Hawk advanced jet trainers, which are built in HAL.


If HAL can stick to the schedule of first flight in early 2015 (let's say before July 2015) there is no reason to do the screwdriver-giri that IAF is peddling.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 26 Mar 2014 11:05

indranilroy wrote:I have always been with Ajai Shukla and HAL on this one. I was waiting for HAL to release more information about the development through him.

Air force resists Antony’s order for indigenous trainer aircraft

...........

If HAL can stick to the schedule of first flight in early 2015 (let's say before July 2015), then there is no reason to do the screwdriver-giri that IAF is peddling.


Pilatus is slated to deliver the 75 aircrafts by mid 2015 or thereabouts which coincides with HTT 40 first flight and delivery from 2017 post testing and validation. having built in the past the BTs and with valuable knowledge gained via LCA and Sitara, it is but natural HAL seems very confident about completing the project in time as per agreed schedule. without giving a fair chance to HAL - which in no way affects its 75 trainer acquisition, the IAF is being unfair and is not looking at the bigger picture of maturing the indian MIC and in the process, helping itself to be 'fairly' independant of overdependance on foreign OEMs.

holding HAL for everything that has happened in the past is no way to judge the future. things are always fluid and change with time if only perseverence and patience are heeded to.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 26 Mar 2014 13:39

indranilroy wrote:
If HAL can stick to the schedule of first flight in early 2015 (let's say before July 2015), then there is no reason to do the screwdriver-giri that IAF is peddling.

I think IAF can do that in one of its BRDs

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 26 Mar 2014 13:47

I am sure HAL will get the HTT-40 flying relatively quickly...but between 1st flight and IOC is the certification program and there as we have seen in the IJT case lies many problems caused by lack of sustained experience.

and this is not Tejas2 or IJT2 with a existing team to build from and use knowledge bank. this is again a new field a super tucano type plane which looks deceptively easy but might not be.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 26 Mar 2014 14:26

The engine will be the biggest reason forthe the delay. If we go by the past experience.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 26 Mar 2014 16:04

first they will choose a underpowered engine, then discover there is no right sized engine for the weight and performance and be forced to fund a new engine somewhere.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 26 Mar 2014 16:19



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