Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 23 Mar 2014 17:07

Yesterday I saw one Jaguar (Yellow painted) coming to land around Marathahalli. One question, isn't the Jagaur production closed?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 24 Mar 2014 08:55

darin-3 upgrade

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_27862 » 24 Mar 2014 10:20

symontk wrote:Yesterday I saw one Jaguar (Yellow painted) coming to land around Marathahalli. One question, isn't the Jagaur production closed?


Jaguar is going to be around for another 10 years.

It is still the best (aerodynamically) low level penetration platform that IAF has and is very relevant to deep penetration strikes in the Pak scenario. Darin 3 mod gets it up to speed with a reliable and accurate navigation and attack system.

Against ITAR targets, I personally have my doubts on its capability due to mediocre performance at high levels and lack of a serious self defence capability against enemy fighters. Maybe possible as part of an escorted strike package with the Sukhoi/ Rafale/MiG29, boys in a dominated corridor.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 24 Mar 2014 17:27

But will upgrade aircrafts fly in yellow colour, is the entire body being changed? looks like it is

The latest upgrade program DARIN III has also been approved. In addition to new avionics and equipment installed as part of DARIN II upgrade, DARIN III would feature modified avionics architecture, new cockpit with dual SMD, Solid State Flight Data Recorder and Solid State Video Recording System, auto pilot system, integration of new multi-mode radar on Jaguar IS(currently only Jaguar IM are fitted with radars). Major structural modification would be carried out on the air frame to accommodate the radar. Initial Jaguars delivered to IAF were powered by two Adour 804E however further deliveries were powered by Adour Mk811. All the current Jaguars of IAF are powered by Adour Mk811. DARIN III upgrade will cause additional weight problems due to addition of new avionics and radar, resulting in it becoming underpowered.


http://www.defenceaviation.com/2011/12/indian-air-force-darin-upgrades-for-sepecat-jaguar.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 25 Mar 2014 02:33

A friend sent me a depressing pic of a particular burning issue,cobwebbed thinking in officialdom.Ultimately,the buck stops with the MOD,DM and regime of the day.We are now on the brink of a major event change in Indian history,the extermination of much of the Congress and the arrival most likely of a new figure on the stage to lea the nation.It is therefore incumbent upon the former senior officers of the armed forces,thinktanks,defence analysts,concerned members of the establishment,executive and administration,to jointly enlighten the new incoming executive of the crisis at hand and the top priorities ,and pressurise it to take swift decisions for the short,med.,long term timeframes to maintain the capability of the armed forces with a balance of imports,JVs and local systems,establishing a sound foundation for greater local dependence in the design,development and manufacture of weapon systems and defence eqpt. across the board.

The aerospace industry could easily be the sunshine industry for Indian entities.The huge application of UAVs/drones for both civil and military use is just one opportunity where both the pvt. and public sector can collaborate together successfully.One may have to raise FDI too to 51% o allow the huge sums required to boost pvt. industry ,so that they can also match the infrastructure that DPSUs enjoy,built up at huge govt. expense.It is heartening to see Indian manufacturers display wares in the arty/MICV domain,where they've collaborated with foreign manufacturers in evolving designs tailor made for our conditions and requirements.A boost to greater indigenous shipbuilding is also possible with the huge investments in capability made by Pipapav and L&T for example.The will to do so has to be there,otherwise,a few decades from now some of us may still be alive and repeating the same.BRF is now 15+ years on and old timers have been flogging the dead horse all these years without much success!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2014 04:43

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2014 10:07

I have always been with Ajai Shukla and HAL on this one. I was waiting for HAL to release more information about the development through him.

Air force resists Antony’s order for indigenous trainer aircraft

The Indian Air Force (IAF) continues its quest to hand Pilatus Aircraft Ltd of Switzerland a Rs 6,000 contract for 106 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft (BTA), over and above the 75 Pilatus trainers already bought for Rs 3,850 crore (Swiss Franc 557 million). Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is currently developing these 106 trainers in India, a project the IAF is sparing no effort to scuttle.

A new IAF "Request for Information" (RFI) - a pre-tender enquiry - floated on the ministry of defence (MoD) website invites Indian companies to submit preliminary bids to supply the IAF with 106 PC-7 Mk II trainers, in partnership with Pilatus. This envisages the import of an unspecified number of BTAs ready built, with the remainder being assembled in India. In MoD's procurement rule book, this is termed a "Buy & Make (Indian)" acquisition.

In floating this RFI, the IAF has openly defied the MoD. In 2009, while giving nod to the acquisition of 181 trainers, Defence Minister A K Antony ruled that 106 trainers would be built in HAL under the "Make" category, while 75 would be imported. Since then, the IAF has repeatedly sought to subvert this decision. The MoD has confirmed to Business Standard that the 2009 decision to build 106 trainers in HAL, which was taken by the apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), remains valid.

"This RFI is a preliminary inquiry that the IAF has sent out, presumably to enlighten itself. This doesn't mean that an RfP (Request for Proposal, as a defence tender is called) will be issued," said the MoD spokesperson.

The IAF has consistently resisted HAL's indigenous trainer - the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40). As Business Standard reported (July 29, 2013, "Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer") former IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, wrote personally to Antony, claiming that the HTT-40 would be costlier than the PC-7 Mk II. A cost analysis by this newspaper, however, suggested the HAL trainer would be much cheaper over its service life. The MoD did not accept the air chief's request.

The IAF next asked HAL to scuttle its own BTA project and instead build the PC-7 Mk II trainer in Bangalore with Pilatus technology (October 14, 2013, "IAF to HAL: Build Swiss trainer aircraft, don't develop your own"). HAL, which has worked steadily on the HTT-40, flatly rejected this proposition.

Bizarrely, Air Chief Marshal Browne next suggested that the PC-7 Mk II be built in an IAF base repair depots (BRDs). Admitting that BRDs were meant only to maintain and overhaul aircraft and engines, he claimed last October that they could also assemble aircraft. The MoD simply ignored this suggestion, which was hastily rebutted by the IAF's maintenance chief, Air Marshal P Kanakaraj.

Now, with Air Chief Marshal Browne having retired and been cleared by the government to be an ambassador, reportedly to Finland, his successor, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, has proposed that Indian private companies build the PC-7 Mk II with Pilatus technology.

Industry experts say there is little in this proposal for private Indian companies. With each BTA priced at about Rs 35 crore, the 10 per cent profit margin from building 106 aircraft would be barely Rs 370 crore. This is a small compensation for the costs and risks of a company's first foray into aerospace manufacture.

Meanwhile, HAL continues work on the HTT-40. With MoD funding blocked by the IAF, HAL has already committed Rs 137 crore of its own money; and stands ready to allocate another Rs 200 crore. On a recent visit to HAL, Business Standard was briefed that the design of structural components is done; assembly drawings will be done by April. A first flight is targeted for early 2015.

"We had planned to build one flying prototype of the HTT-40 and one ground test specimen. Now, to speed up design and flight testing, HAL will build three flying prototypes and two ground test models," says Prashantsingh Bhadoria, one of HAL's talented young designers who is deputy head of the HTT-40 project.

HAL designers are confident that, given their major role in developing the Tejas fighter; and the Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT) that is nearly complete, there is little doubt that the company will build a successful basic trainer.

IAF planners know that the procurement cost of an aircraft is just one-fifth to one-tenth of the cost of operating it through its service life. For that reason, an indigenous aircraft is significantly cheaper in the long term than an overseas purchase, where the IAF remains dependent for spares, overhauls and upgrades on foreign vendors who invariably jack up prices after the initial sale. HAL designers say they are ensuring a high degree of commonality in parts and sub-systems between the HTT-40 and the IJT. This will reduce production costs and also ease inventory problems in training establishments.

IAF pilots need three types of trainer aircraft. In Stage-1 training, rookie pilots learn basic flying on aircraft like the PC-7 Mk I, and the HTT-40. Stage-2 training involves more complex flying on aircraft like the Kiran Mark 1, or the Sitara IJT. Stage-3 training, which prepares pilots for occupying the cockpits of frontline IAF fighters, is done on Hawk advanced jet trainers, which are built in HAL.


If HAL can stick to the schedule of first flight in early 2015 (let's say before July 2015) there is no reason to do the screwdriver-giri that IAF is peddling.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 26 Mar 2014 11:05

indranilroy wrote:I have always been with Ajai Shukla and HAL on this one. I was waiting for HAL to release more information about the development through him.

Air force resists Antony’s order for indigenous trainer aircraft

...........

If HAL can stick to the schedule of first flight in early 2015 (let's say before July 2015), then there is no reason to do the screwdriver-giri that IAF is peddling.


Pilatus is slated to deliver the 75 aircrafts by mid 2015 or thereabouts which coincides with HTT 40 first flight and delivery from 2017 post testing and validation. having built in the past the BTs and with valuable knowledge gained via LCA and Sitara, it is but natural HAL seems very confident about completing the project in time as per agreed schedule. without giving a fair chance to HAL - which in no way affects its 75 trainer acquisition, the IAF is being unfair and is not looking at the bigger picture of maturing the indian MIC and in the process, helping itself to be 'fairly' independant of overdependance on foreign OEMs.

holding HAL for everything that has happened in the past is no way to judge the future. things are always fluid and change with time if only perseverence and patience are heeded to.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 26 Mar 2014 13:39

indranilroy wrote:
If HAL can stick to the schedule of first flight in early 2015 (let's say before July 2015), then there is no reason to do the screwdriver-giri that IAF is peddling.

I think IAF can do that in one of its BRDs

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 26 Mar 2014 13:47

I am sure HAL will get the HTT-40 flying relatively quickly...but between 1st flight and IOC is the certification program and there as we have seen in the IJT case lies many problems caused by lack of sustained experience.

and this is not Tejas2 or IJT2 with a existing team to build from and use knowledge bank. this is again a new field a super tucano type plane which looks deceptively easy but might not be.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 26 Mar 2014 14:26

The engine will be the biggest reason forthe the delay. If we go by the past experience.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 26 Mar 2014 16:04

first they will choose a underpowered engine, then discover there is no right sized engine for the weight and performance and be forced to fund a new engine somewhere.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 26 Mar 2014 16:19


krishnan
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby krishnan » 26 Mar 2014 16:37

Singha wrote:first they will choose a underpowered engine, then discover there is no right sized engine for the weight and performance and be forced to fund a new engine somewhere.


no they will buy a whole new A/C by doing a 5 year tender comedy

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby A Sharma » 26 Mar 2014 18:22

HAL can use the same Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-25C engine used in PC-7 Mk II. That way they can reduce costs too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 26 Mar 2014 19:10


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 26 Mar 2014 19:56

A Sharma wrote:HAL can use the same Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-25C engine used in PC-7 Mk II. That way they can reduce costs too.


My thoughts exactly. The LCH, Dhruv & LUH share an engine type. It would be sensible to build an aircraft around the P&W engine and retain commonality. But given the functioning of the MoD, one can only hope that it emerges as the cheapest option after the dust settles.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2014 21:05



That is very old news. The engine has already been selected. The tender was floated in early 2013 and extended multiple times in 2013. The engine is now believed to be chosen. I think in AI-11 they had said that they wanted a PT-6. However I don't know what engine they have finally chosen.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 27 Mar 2014 09:34

Viv S wrote:
A Sharma wrote:HAL can use the same Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-25C engine used in PC-7 Mk II. That way they can reduce costs too.


My thoughts exactly. The LCH, Dhruv & LUH share an engine type. It would be sensible to build an aircraft around the P&W engine and retain commonality. But given the functioning of the MoD, one can only hope that it emerges as the cheapest option after the dust settles.


not only does it have to be cheapest. ppl will raise technical objections it is 20kg heavier, overpowered and a customized version is necessary for a billion$ budget. HAL engine divisions would love to tinker around and assemble this "india specific variant" rather than just directly import the damn things (we wont need more than 400 sets)....there will be silky talk of indian being granted "re export rights" to this engine etc etc...you KNOW THE DRILL.

perfection is always enemy of good enough.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srin » 27 Mar 2014 11:51

That is not the biggest problem.

An "agent" will approach some MoD babu offering some money and we will blacklist the engine and ground the types of aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 27 Mar 2014 14:40

They are two main turboprop engines in the world, one PT6 is being used in Saras and another Garrett in Dornier. PT6 is more used and it is almost sure that PT6 will be selected. Now taking 4 years for this decision is criminal and smells of Conspircay theory that time was being wasted for some other reasons like negotiating cuts, delaying HTT etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sri Harsha » 28 Mar 2014 14:09

Air Force's new C-130 J aircraft crashes near Gwalior, five killed

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/air-f ... 1395997554

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 838303.cms

Sad News.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Mar 2014 15:53

Feel sad for the 5 IAF lives lost.

But the C-130J and C-17 at the price they were bought are questionable deals, like the M-4 deals.

I think the best purchase by us from USA was the P-8I's.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rkhanna » 28 Mar 2014 17:05

Apparently there was SF team on board as well :(

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 28 Mar 2014 17:42

Awful news.Heavy loss of life,one's heart goes out to the families and loved ones.This is a brand new aircraft and type in service,bought at huge cost, and the aircraft was lost not on a Himalayan run but in the plains.A thorough investigation should be done.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Mort Walker » 28 Mar 2014 22:13

^^^It is terrible and justifiable to be pi$$ed about the lives lost, but the C-130J is operated by many AFs around the world with little issue. It doesn't mean that nothing could have gone bad in the avionics or engines, but aside from the IAF, the USAF and LM will want to know the details of the crash as well for the safety of their crews and for sales of the C-130J.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28502 » 29 Mar 2014 10:45

first learn to make some good trainers instead of buying that too from Swiss who never saw action....


here is one to copy

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chetak » 29 Mar 2014 11:52

Aditya_V wrote:Feel sad for the 5 IAF lives lost.

But the C-130J and C-17 at the price they were bought are questionable deals, like the M-4 deals.

I think the best purchase by us from USA was the P-8I's.


MMS's payback to the US for the fraudulent nuke deal.

GOTUS will make money off us Indians in any which way they can and congi criminals will aid and abet them. No better than BJP criminals who will also very willingly do the same when their turn comes.

The paki terrorists who are targeting Modi are doing so at the behest of the ISI who in turn are being tasked by the CIA. This is a strong feeling that I have developed of late.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Rony » 29 Mar 2014 16:53


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Paul » 29 Mar 2014 17:02

Wow...Until this theory is disproven conclusively, all US purchases of mil equipment should be put on hold. That includes the Apaches as well.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Arunkumar » 29 Mar 2014 19:10

In a post UPA rule , I felt the C-130J and C-17 would be the only product worth ordering. Apache\p-8i\m-777\chinook\javelin all seemed like ordered only as quid pro quo for oscar for slumdog millionaire in 2009.
With this crash even this wont be ordered any further.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 29 Mar 2014 19:23

Oh why not, while we all are at it:

K. C. Singh ‏@ambkcsingh Mar 28

C-130J crash. Last yr Canada reported that some counterfeit Chinese chips in cockpit display units could cause the display malfunctioning


May be the same chip is afflicting the MKI, which is why the Russians could not solve the problem for a whole year.

I think it is china that is behind all this and it will get worse - Indian telecom has plenty of chinese stuff. #MMS

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby TSJones » 29 Mar 2014 19:58

delete
Last edited by TSJones on 29 Mar 2014 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby TSJones » 29 Mar 2014 20:05

NRao wrote:Oh why not, while we all are at it:

K. C. Singh ‏@ambkcsingh Mar 28

C-130J crash. Last yr Canada reported that some counterfeit Chinese chips in cockpit display units could cause the display malfunctioning


May be the same chip is afflicting the MKI, which is why the Russians could not solve the problem for a whole year.

I think it is china that is behind all this and it will get worse - Indian telecom has plenty of chinese stuff. #MMS


A number of years back there was a problem with nuts and bolts that were supposed certified to a certain strength turns out they were chinese counterfeits. Since then the DoD has a monitoring and test program for all of its equipment that it orders especially electronics. The product must meet these standards. that is one of the reasons why everything is so expensive that it contracts for.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 29 Mar 2014 20:19

The F-35 program recently got permission to use chinese "stuff".

But tweeter has its own universe. Ppl say wha dey wnt, evn if it makes no sense. #irresponsible

(BTW, I used http://tiny.tw/index.php to come up with that crap)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 29 Mar 2014 22:30

Loosing a four engined turboprop is not a normal accident.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2014 03:33

We've had 2 decades of accident free operations of the mighty IL-76s.The Hercules has also been one of the truly great aircraft built,with few accidents due to mechanical failure.The most infamous was the one that carried the crate of mangoes,but actually crashed because of poison gas incapacitating the crew.The circumstances of this accident must be very thoroughly investigated.The spate of major accidents involving the services evokes some suspicion.Perhaps not all are due to human error or mech. failure,but human intent.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 30 Mar 2014 07:37

Probe hit defence deals worth 1.2 lakh crore stir up controversy New indian express

The report alleges that Scamthony has raised "red flags" yet again on the A-330 MRTT tankers (Airbus under CBI scanner in another deal,file sent to the Law Min.),offset proposals for the Rafale (discrepancies in 50% offset proposal),and LUH helo (Fennec lowest bidder,but entire deal under shadow of the AW scam,alleged payoff demanded by a Brigadier,etc.,which Saw Gen.BK Singh order a CBI probe into the LUH deal).The MMRCA deal was "almost ready" but couldn't be signed due to the financial crunch.But Scamthony himself raised Qs about the offsets and whenever it happens will raise Qs from whoever is in the Opposition.

The report alleges that Scamthony is making decisions on these deals difficult for whoever replaces him. If true,he will surely go down in Indian history as its worst ever DM,probably worst ever cabinet minister since Independence!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 30 Mar 2014 08:12

Saras was to fly again in January, any reports about what happened?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 30 Mar 2014 08:29

40 Pages of good info:

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