Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2014 14:04

On the general issue of success of ISRO versus failure of HAL, the fact is that rockets and missiles can be allowed to fail as part of a test an no one loses his life. Aircraft failures cause deaths, which is why so much more testing is required before aircraft are certified airworthy.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2014 14:10

I may be wrong but I vaguely recall that part of the Rafale deal may be to set up a vertical wind tunnel in India. Don't take my word for this as confirmed - it's a vague memory.

Regarding news reports - not all are trustworthy. A couple of weeks ago - browsing through IDRW I found one nes iem that said that the Rafale deal was not going through and a later one saying it's on track.

My left testimonial is up for grabs on this. The deal is on.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sumeet » 05 Apr 2014 14:46

shiv wrote:On the general issue of success of ISRO versus failure of HAL, the fact is that rockets and missiles can be allowed to fail as part of a test an no one loses his life. Aircraft failures cause deaths, which is why so much more testing is required before aircraft are certified airworthy.


In that case it will be very interesting to see when ISRO attempts to make a Spacecraft that can carry humans (Astronauts) to space. Lets see if India becomes Spacecraft superpower before military aircraft superpower.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2014 16:41

Sumeet wrote:
shiv wrote:On the general issue of success of ISRO versus failure of HAL, the fact is that rockets and missiles can be allowed to fail as part of a test an no one loses his life. Aircraft failures cause deaths, which is why so much more testing is required before aircraft are certified airworthy.


In that case it will be very interesting to see when ISRO attempts to make a Spacecraft that can carry humans (Astronauts) to space. Lets see if India becomes Spacecraft superpower before military aircraft superpower.


The comparison may not be particularly fair. India has designed and produced hundreds of safe, flying aircraft already - so it's the new designs and higher performance that are one issue. The other issue is reliable power plant - which is currently OK for ISRO. ISRO will not be required to design and fly tens or hundreds of identical crew modules for takeoff, flight and landing - so their issues are very different.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_23694 » 05 Apr 2014 17:50

shiv wrote:ISRO will not be required to design and fly tens or hundreds of identical crew modules for takeoff, flight and landing - so their issues are very different.


Sir with due respect I have a slight different opinion for this, since this is related to assembly line and manufacturing quality and not sure if anything to do with design. HAL for most part of its existence seems to happy with license manufacturing. Probably if aviation R&D was given importance throughout then we could have been in a different league. Design and Develop is a continuous process spanning decades. For ex. if ISRO had continued on semi-cryo in 70s then our launch capability by now would have been much much better. Its all about leadership and his vision rest will all follow accordingly

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 05 Apr 2014 18:20

Some roles of IJT can be taken over by HTT-40

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Manish_Sharma » 05 Apr 2014 18:44

shiv wrote:I may be wrong but I vaguely recall that part of the Rafale deal may be to set up a vertical wind tunnel in India. Don't take my word for this as confirmed - it's a vague memory.


There was one about C 17 deal having a condition that boeing will set up a wind tunnel facility for us, but never about Rafale:

Boeing and India sign the deal for 10 C-17s, to be delivered during 2013-2014. India will also join the Globemaster Sustainment Partnership. On Boeing’s part, it will invest 30% of the $4.1 billion contract in Indian civilian and military industries. The Letter of Offer and Acceptance is reported to specifically include the build-out of a high-altitude engine test facility and trisonic wind tunnel facility at India’s DRDO. Rumors place those projects’ cost at $500 million, but the long-term value to Indian research may be higher.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/c-17s-for-india-05924/

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2014 12:08



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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 15 Apr 2014 10:22

these facilities were supposed to come up in the integrated defence complex in Chitradurga KT shared by AEC, BARC, DRDO and HAL. however with barely a fraction of buildings and civil work done, a coalition of herders, "concerned citizens" and "civil society activists" have obtained a stay order and stalled the work alleging good grazing lands are being occupied without other recourse.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2014 17:53

India Wants Domestic Production of Pilatus Trainers

NEW DELHI — After contracting 75 basic trainer aircraft from Pilatus in 2012, the Indian Ministry of Defence wants to buy an additional 106 that would be license-built by a domestic company.

But domestic defense firms find the proposal uneconomical, and state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is pushing its own homegrown basic trainer, though the Indian Air Force has already rejected it.

The request for information, described by the defense industry as the first of its kind, asks selected domestic companies if they would participate in the proposed $1.2 billion program to build 106 Pilatus PC-7 Mark-II trainers under license from the Swiss company in the “Buy and Make (Indian)” category, which restricts contracts to domestic defense companies and requires that at least half of the components and subsystems come from domestic sources.

Domestic companies, in turn, find the “Buy and Make (Indian )” program for Pilatus uneconomical because of the limited order. A chosen domestic company and the Swiss original equipment manufacturer would produce the trainer. However, no domestic partner has so far confirmed talking to Pilatus on the program.

An executive of Tata Group, which received the request for information, said that under the tender’s terms all interested Indian companies will have to first talk to Pilatus and then calculate their cost. Pilatus would be the main beneficiary under the Indian program, leaving little profit for the domestic firms, the official said.

HAL is also developing a homegrown trainer and is trying to block the proposed Pilatus program, a Defence Ministry source said.

A HAL official said the basic trainer it is developing, the HTT-40, would be more advanced than the PC-7 as it will have weapon-firing capabilities and other advancements. The HTT-40 is expected to fly by 2015, he added.

The Pilatus Buy and Make proposal may never take off because of domestic companies’ lack of interest and HAL’s push for its own program, the MoD source said.

Last year, the Air Force proposed that HAL license-produce the Pilatus aircraft but HAL rejected the proposal, saying it was working on its own project, a senior Air Force official said.

The Air Force informed the MoD last year that it did not favor HAL’s homegrown trainer and asked MoD to buy additional trainers quickly.

HAL and the Air Force came to a dispute when the former Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, asked Defence Minister A.K. Antony to drop HAL’s plans to produce its own basic trainer and instead purchase additional Pilatus trainers.

Browne wrote to Antony, saying HAL should focus on its delayed aircraft projects, especially the Intermediate Jet Trainer, and forget about building a basic trainer.

The Swiss-made trainer would be cheaper than the HTT-40, and HAL has poor reliability in terms of delivery shedules, Browne said.

The Air Force has a requirement for 181 basic trainer aircraft. The request for information says the trainers must include requisite tools, testers, ground-based training systems, full-motion simulators, and avionics and spare parts. ■

tushar_m

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tushar_m » 24 Apr 2014 19:22

AURA , The Future of Indian Airforce


AURA or Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft is an Indian initiative at building an Unmanned Combat Air vehicle (UCAV) with special preference given to the stealth features. The examples of these UCAV’s are X47 of US , Dassault nEUROn (France) & BAE Taranis , all of which are on the initial stage of development & testing. The X47b program of US Navy being front runner as it has recently started taking off from the US Aircraft carriers.

The purpose of the DRDO is to provide the Indian Air force with an option to deliver the payloads to enemy location without endangering the life of the pilot . This will act along side with the PAK-FA & AMCA , the 5th Generations of fighter aircrafts that will start showing up on the IAF inventory towards the end of this decade or start of the next. The AURA program is also meant to compete with the other programs to provide the IAF with the best technically advanced UCAV which will form the backbone of the airforce in the next decade .

The important point to note is that DRDO has already made progress in the field of UCAV with the introduction of RUSTOM -2 UCAV which if going through the trails & is expected to enter service in few years. With two or more prototypes being built till now ,DRDO is fast tracking its UAV/UCAV programs to meet the requirements of the IAF.It also expected that most of the basic technological requirements for developing the UAV/UCAV will be tested on RUSTOM programs first before being implemented on to the AURA project.

One of the basic difference between the AURA & RUSTOM program is that the former is a stealth UCAV powered by a jet engine (possibly non after burning version of kaveri ) while the latter is a prop based engine . Both of this programs fulfill different purposes with Indian Armed forces ,one will serve as a surveillance UAV with long term endurance while the other will lead the attack on the enemy forces .

With the progress of DRDO programs in the coming days AURA is expected to make its first flight in 2015 .There is very less information about the program in the public domain because of it being a Black project, but the DRDO has shown its capabilities in the past years & Indian military establishment is also confident on the project.

One of the hurdle in the AURA project is the engine which is expected to be Kaveri non afterburning version , DRDO has not made progress in the indigenous jet engine project & the Indian military continues to depend on the foreign engine manufacturers for their requirements. With AL-41 & RD33 from Russia , F414 from US & Adour from Rolls-Royce the country depends on many manufacturers to keep its equipment’s at par. The HAL manufactures some of these engines at India but one of the most important aspect of the engine manufacturing ,the blades of the engine comes from abroad & HAL just do the assembly work.

If the engine problem is solved by the DRDO bases Labs India will join the elite club of U.S,France,U.K. &Russia with jet engine manufacturing technology. China is also making strives of progress in this field but is still struggling with ws10 engine for its fighter aircraft's .

We only hope that DRDO make progress with the engine technology & the stealth technology so that project AURA could become reality for the IAF .With AMCA & FGFA projects the DRDO labs are already working on the stealth aspect of the project.

By : Defenceradar.com



Can't post direct link , sorry for inconvenience

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 24 Apr 2014 21:41

The budget for developing turbofan engine for AURA is only Rs. 500 crore and has still not been sanctioned. Compare it with Rs. 4000 crore paid for designs of AL-55 engine which is overweight and has poor SFC & MTBF, not to mention it will never be manufactured in India for all practical purposes.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tushar_m » 24 Apr 2014 22:46

Did n't know that a separate engine development for AURA was on the table , it would be good to see that happening

but how will it be different form the conventional engines that are used on our fighters.???

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 02 May 2014 05:57

HAL delivers aircraft to DRDO

HAL on Thursday delivered an aircraft to Bangalore-based Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) which will be used the DRDO unit as a flying test bed for evaluation of performance of various radars being developed by LRDE.

The aircraft, which is a Dornier (DO-228) aircraft named 'Nabhratna' was handed over to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). According to sources, the aircraft was developed at its Kanpur division.

"This aircraft is equipped with indigenous synthetic aperture radar and, avionics and communication system," said Avinash Chander, Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri.

"We needed this aircraft much more than anything else for testing of radar in air as we had to depend on others to loan the aircraft. Use of flying test bed (FTB) aircraft will reduce the cycle time for development for airborne system," he added. "Money invested for the aircraft will give us returns many times more as the aircraft will prove its worth in the months to come," he added.

A contract for supply of one aircraft along with spares, tools and publications was signed by HAL with LRDE on May 30, 2013.

On the occasion, K Tamil Mani, DRDO Director General (Aero), said partnership between HAL and DRDO on various platforms would continue. "Our confidence stands vindicated when we see the targets at HAL are met with complete dedication," he felt.

Till now, whenever the LRDE needed to test any radar under development, they would approach the Indian Navy or Indian Coast Guard for loan allotment of DO-228 aircraft for a limited period. It was difficult to spare the aircraft because of operational needs, often resulting in delay in the development of radars, HAL said in a release. In view of this, the LRDE decided to procure one DO-228 aircraft on their own for testing of radar in air.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 05 May 2014 16:58

MiG service center responsible for maintenance of MiG-29 fighters to open in India next year

A service center for maintenance of MiG-29 aircraft will be opened in India next year, ITAR-TASS reports with reference to CEO of Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RAC MiG), Sergey Korotkov.

"This year we must deliver equipment to the service center constructed under an agreement. It will open next year in accordance with the contract obligations of both parties. RAC MiG is implementing this contract in cooperation with Indian enterprises", - Sergey Korotkov noted.

It was reported earlier that RAC MiG signed two additional contracts with Basant Aerosrace Privet Limite (India) in the network of a general offset contract with Indian air forces at MAKS-2013. The contracts are valued at $55 million.

The first contract ($43 million) assumes establishing of a service center in India responsible for repair and maintenance of onboard radar Zhuk-ME manufactured by Phasotron-NIIR. The second one ($12 million) assumes establishing another service center in India responsible for repair of equipment of the upgraded MiG-29UPG aircraft.

The centers will be repairing the onboard radars and equipment of MiG-29UPG and MiG-29K/KUB aircraft and will also offer consultations to maintenance personnel of Indian air forces.

According to a representative of RAC MiG, the next step is setting up a consignment stock of spare parts for MiG aircraft in India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby chackojoseph » 08 May 2014 18:44

Indian Air force PC-7 MkII fleet crosses 12000 flying hours, 24000 landings since Feb 2013

Indian Air Force is already planning to advance their plans to enhance the number of student pilots by 150% from the next course,... Furthermore, the PC-7 MkII has enabled the Indian Air Force to increase the basic training syllabus in terms of flight hours by 220% compared to the old syllabus and increase the solo content from only 1 to 14 sorties

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 16 May 2014 14:29

Today at 12.30PM I saw a seemingly newly built grey painted Jaguar, looks like they have completed the DARIN3 test flights

I had seen the green ones in earlier months

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Lilo » 23 May 2014 13:07

Image

R&AW's new recon plane for its ARC division pictured here in Israel where its being fitted.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tushar_m » 24 May 2014 19:31

Modi Wave :D


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Bala Vignesh » 27 May 2014 10:19

I dont reckon modi was involved with this. This is more of Babu's work than a neta.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 27 May 2014 10:40

I wonder if the BAE Hawk itself with sw limitations imposed on its engine performance and FCS can function as a gentler handling IJT machine?

no other major AF seems to have a separate IJT and AJT ?

I think RAF trainees do just tucano and hawk, with nothing in between.

with the Mig21/Mig23/Mig27 being retired, the danger of students going from trainerjet to very unforgiving a/c will soon be gone. the M2K, Jag, Mig29, Tejas, Su30 all have 2 seater versions.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Yogi_G » 27 May 2014 11:04

mig-21 crash in j&k

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby putnanja » 27 May 2014 11:13

Sad news, Mig-21 crash in J&K. Pilot killed, copilot injured, as per rediff.com

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 27 May 2014 12:59

The Hindu reported that it was a MiG-29, but all other news outlets are reporting it as a MiG-21..no idea which variant.

RIP Sqdn Ldr Raghuvanshi. :(

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 27 May 2014 13:08



Alenia Aermacchi won't offer the M-346 Master..they'll offer the M-345 which they describe as a 'basic-advanced' (God knows what they mean by using both terms instead of calling it intermediate) jet trainer.

BTW, Alenia is a Finmeccanica company.

Yak-130 for the IJT's role or the T-50 is indeed absurd. Surely no one takes such an RFI seriously. Its basically a threat by the IAF to discard the IJT and find another platform if HAL doesn't stick to its timelines. Really horrible project management by HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby rrao » 27 May 2014 19:13

Kartik wrote:


Alenia Aermacchi won't offer the M-346 Master..they'll offer the M-345 which they describe as a 'basic-advanced' (God knows what they mean by using both terms instead of calling it intermediate) jet trainer.

BTW, Alenia is a Finmeccanica company.

Yak-130 for the IJT's role or the T-50 is indeed absurd. Surely no one takes such an RFI seriously. Its basically a threat by the IAF to discard the IJT and find another platform if HAL doesn't stick to its timelines. Really horrible project management by HAL.


what is ailing with IJT?

1. wrong decsion to replace LARZAC with AL-55I
2. Russians ditching HAL to deliver a proven and reliable AL-55I in time ?
3 . flaws in the Aerodynamics design ,which is apparently causing an unwanted roll during stall tests?
4. Flight control systems are too lazy to respond?
5 .HAL has roped in BAe to help cllear IJT...how useful is it?
6. Retirement of project heads who conceived it?
7.new vigilance procedures have made the lives of designers miserable. Procurement is a nightmare with single tender issues,re-tendering and re-tendering causing an endless cycle..
8.of-course project management!!!

IJT design is it based on Alpha jet or a polish trainer? The air intakes are too small which may make the engine starved of the critical oxygen during high "g: Maneuvers?The wing length and dimension appeared to be too small !!! The location of air intakes should it be above or below the wings for an optimal flight performance. IJT was hurriedly conceived in 36 months because of which it is suffering from congenital maladies...Gurus please comment on the soundness of the IJT design..
what are the corrective actions which our learned gurus can indicate .TIA!!!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby John » 27 May 2014 21:32


IAF should have done this 5 years ago IMO it is best to simply walk away from IJT and cut the loses focus on inducting more Hawk. As for future launch a plan for advanced jet trainer that is built locally with private joint venture. I really don't see a need for intermediate trainer as do most AFs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 27 May 2014 22:16

HTT-40 can take over the role of IJT if required.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby John » 27 May 2014 22:46

No matter how much of a safe bet HAL claims HTT-40 is, IAF should not contribute a single dime to it till HAL comes and clearly addresses what went wrong IJT and what it will do differently with HTT-40.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 27 May 2014 23:23

The gloom in many quarters that the venerable "Amby" will be built no more illustrates what has happened to India in the last few decades.New reliable cars of better design and build quality,built in India no less,have taken over the lion's share of the market.Maruti alone,a JV,has a 50% share.Decades ago when I bought my first Maruti,the original Japanese one,a family friend,auto expert,owner of umpteen vintage beauties asked me why I did not buy an Amby instead.I said reliability.Our firm did buy an Amby later on,which spent 9 months in the garage being rewelded.On one of its first trips the headlamp fell off after a short drizzle and one of the Directors had to have major back surgery thanks to too much long-distance travel in it eschewing the fleet of firang cars available to him. I then understood the boast of HM that "any village mechanic could repair it",because it needed regular repair at villages whenever it broke down!

Now HAL and some of its desi designs remind one of the Aamby.Its best forgotten basic trainer which crashed at regular intervals,killing many pilots.Sadly in the air there are no village mechanics to repair a bird! Locally MIG-21s were often very shoddy in quality,as many IAF officers have commented and written about over the years.The IJT is a disaster as of now.The HTT-40 a paper plane. Thankfully,the IAF/MOD chose to import the excellent Pilatus,the most popular basic trainer worldwide.The PC-21,an upgrade of the PC-7, mimics the performance of more advanced jets and can do away with the need for an IJT. The IAF now want more PC-7s to be built in India at their BRDs.It may indeed be possible to operate only two types,PC-7 and Hawk,if the need for an IJT is scrapped,but if required,could see some interesting competition from east and west.More advanced trg. will be done as normal,with dedicated two-seaters of the major types imported.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby P Chitkara » 28 May 2014 12:55

I all sums up to this >> Accountability.

HAL is a PSU where at least a big majority is working contently in their sarkari jobs with little or no accountability. For the rest, there is no or very little incentive to perform, innovate and raise the bar higher. Those who do, do it out of their own conviction but then, their efforts get stymied by inefficient project management and general PSU culture.

I personally know some very bright people who have left DRDO out of sheer frustration. I assume the story at HAL will not be too different.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 28 May 2014 22:47

May be Accountability should be replaced by Competition. Everyone works harder when a fear factor of losing their paycheck is brought in.

Allow Reliance to enter the fray for making LCA and check how much efficient HAL will become.

Same with L&T for sub making to drill sense in to Mazgoan dock.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby uddu » 29 May 2014 07:25

What's this obsession with reliance. Have they build a single plane? Even Mahindra Aerospace has comeup with something that flies good. The need of the hour is to ensure that HAL is able to mass produce Tejas. There can be outsourcing of parts which can be produced by private players with proper quality. Again its the proper management and timely delivery that matters. Here the MOD must step in and ensure that HAL does the job properly by providing the resources required and still if the targets are not met, those responsible be fired.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 29 May 2014 09:34

Reliance is the only Indian player with balance sheet strength and interest in getting into building fighter jets.

Rest of the capable bunch - Tatas and Mahindra prefer small steps, not big leap of faith jumps.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 29 May 2014 09:42

This beautiful picture is from a guy called Arnav Pai. We have seen Jaguar IM with the Harpoons before. He has a few more in his FB album of birds flying in and out of HAL airport.
Image

But, more interestingly, is it the LSTAR antenna on the roof top of the pink building in the background? I had read about the this test set up, never seen a picture of it though.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Bala Vignesh » 29 May 2014 09:52

Well slightly off topic, but if I wouldn't let Reliance any where near our military industry complex. They have no heavy engineering experience like the tatas, Mahindras and L&T. And well end up in being in a hotter soup than we already are in.
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