Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 16 Nov 2014 05:54

Please post in the new thread.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 16 Nov 2014 08:58

pilot seems to have a poor fwd view in the apache
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBZaV81BmJ4

be interesting to know if its any better in the LCH
http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/ ... ds/LCH.jpg
above pic makes me think the apache has a small glass box and single pillar in the center....but pilot view will be similar.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 16 Nov 2014 09:05

Pilot in the Apache sits in the rear IIRC.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby brar_w » 16 Nov 2014 09:19

NRao wrote:Pilot in the Apache sits in the rear IIRC.


Yup, the front is for the gunner..


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 17 Nov 2014 20:31

Meanwhile,

HAL is making 3 flying, 1 static and 1 fatigue-test prototypes of the HTT-40.
First flight in 2015.
Production from 2016-2017 at the rate of 20-25 aircraft per year.
Expects 106 orders.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 17 Nov 2014 22:28

What's wrong with having 880 planes or 44 squadrons of

LCA MKI and II - 500 with DESI 'AESA+ASTRA BVR+SPECTRA clone' - 12 billion
SU-30 MKI - 280 with DESI AESA upgrades
F35 - 100 (China specific, no PAKFA as too much Russian reliance) - 10 billion

TOTAL EXPENSE - 22 BILLION SAME AS 100 RAFALES ???

Don't know why we are like to juggle things around so much. My two cents - US is the only nation working on taking on China today, so if we must then ride on that wave. PAKFA investment seems like moving ahead with one foot held in past.

Save the 40 billion on RAFALE and spend it on Desi UAV, DRDO AWACS and Air-to-Air re-fuelers. Invest in AMCA as follow on. Not seeing the point in this back and forth vacillation.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby adarshp » 17 Nov 2014 22:51

nik wrote:What's wrong with having 880 planes or 44 squadrons of

LCA MKI and II - 500 with DESI 'AESA+ASTRA BVR+SPECTRA clone' - 12 billion
SU-30 MKI - 280 with DESI AESA upgrades
F35 - 100 (China specific, no PAKFA as too much Russian reliance) - 10 billion

TOTAL EXPENSE - 22 BILLION SAME AS 100 RAFALES ???

Don't know why we are like to juggle things around so much. My two cents - US is the only nation working on taking on China today, so if we must then ride on that wave. PAKFA investment seems like moving ahead with one foot held in past.

Save the 40 billion on RAFALE and spend it on Desi UAV, DRDO AWACS and Air-to-Air re-fuelers. Invest in AMCA as follow on. Not seeing the point in this back and forth vacillation.


Who is selling 100 F-35 for 10 billion?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 17 Nov 2014 22:58

100 planes at 100 million each - outright purchase, no TOT or otherwise saga. That just is a waste going by prior experience. No shortcuts to hard work and sweat.

We can offer Lockheed to build service and training facilities in India. A cost effective alternative for serving other users, just like MIG-29 and SU-30.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28840 » 17 Nov 2014 23:40

even if the flyaway cost is a 100mn each, the final cost will include cost of spares over the lifetime, armaments , ground handling equipment, training services (both pilots and ground engineers) and much more.

the final cost will be at least the same as the Rafael deal or probably much more for just 100 F-35s

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vishvak » 17 Nov 2014 23:43

LOL F-35 in this thread too, not just supporters but also detractors from China.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 17 Nov 2014 23:48

@ Marten - absolutely Sir. Send me your account details - All white money please :)

Jokes apart - I am basing on wiki data for F-35A - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_M ... ghtning_II

100 m -> 85 M + 15 M for Training.

As far as Life time costs go - it will be much much better than RAFALE joker. Think about it - US $ versus EURO rate and 2~300 Rafales worldwide versus 2~3000 F-35 versions.

But this makes sense only if we get 500 LCA MK-I and II as backbone of IAF

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 17 Nov 2014 23:57

nik wrote:100 planes at 100 million each - outright purchase, no TOT or otherwise saga.

For 100 units... probably closer to $12bn if ordered off-the-shelf but only post-2018. Not including weapons of course.

xave wrote:even if the flyaway cost is a 100mn each, the final cost will include cost of spares over the lifetime, armaments , ground handling equipment, training services (both pilots and ground engineers) and much more.

Flyaway is $70-75 mil each. Another $40 mil or so for support. At current day prices i.e disregarding (normal) currency inflation.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28840 » 18 Nov 2014 00:13

Viv S wrote:
xave wrote:even if the flyaway cost is a 100mn each, the final cost will include cost of spares over the lifetime, armaments , ground handling equipment, training services (both pilots and ground engineers) and much more.

Flyaway is $70-75 mil each. Another $40 mil or so for support. At current day prices i.e disregarding (normal) currency inflation.


i mistakenly assumed the quoted 100mn price was the flyaway cost, i didn't realize it was lower.

@nik & @viv
I agree the Rafael is grossly overpriced , but will we even get the F-35 even if we asked khan for it?
If they do agree, will we get the full technology F-35 ? I really dont want to see all that hard earned money given away for a downgraded monkey export model.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby brar_w » 18 Nov 2014 00:16

The short answer is NO. Beginning the MRCA process again to incorporate the F-35 into the negotiations would affectively kill the IAF's overwhelming reason for this acquisition. You cannot do something that you as a bureaucracy as inept of doing quickly. Its like asking the Pentagon to generate competent Project Managers (speaking from experience of having worked with someone who came form the DOD PM world into health analytics).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 18 Nov 2014 00:29

If we ask for it then Khan will be more than willing to give us F-35 - same build as other export customers. I mean look at the customer list on wiki. This will be like the best case scenario for US - finally weaning us away from Russians and locking us in to their sphere.

Once more - This will work only only if we use F-35 against China. For Pakis, expect remote control turn off. Not that we will need them to blast antique paki stuff. Cost of any imported ordinance (source irrelevant) will be more 2~5x times of target cost - so need cheap and plentiful DESI stuff for Pakis.

The real question is will IAF throw the wrench by asking for customizations - which by the way Lockheed Martin is silently praying for. Restrain our wish-list and keep cost to standard flyaway prices - learning from our transport aircraft acquisition here. That money is better spent on Desi AMCA and all.

@ brar_w -> Believe we are seeing a big reset from past practices thanks to new administration. The scenario is absolutely right case with UPA, not with Modi led government. If we need 20 billion because files don't move fast enough then might as well spend the 20 billion for putting hot wheels on the elephant!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 18 Nov 2014 00:46

F-35 will not mean incorporating the F-35 into the MMRCA negotiations. MMRCA will have no meaning IF the F-35 is selected.

It will mean that the IAF has to make huge changes, that is for sure.

But, the way the Rafale is priced, so will the Indian economy have to make huge changes to accommodate the Rafale - and - it will only get worse. The unit price for the Rafale will *never* reduce.

From a price, good-good IAF feeling, no-need-to-incorporate feeling, get more MKIs and be done with it.


I just cannot see the value for the rafale. China is not going to attack just because the IAF does not have enough numbers. Not going to happen. There is more than enough time to re-think this Rafale boondoggle. @ a billion a year for 20+ years it is a royal w-ape.

And, the IAF can afford to rethink its philosophy of 20+ years.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vishvak » 18 Nov 2014 01:02

Rafale can be very versatile to begin with - no denying that. If we are not buying Rafale, better to invest in FGFA, AMCA, LCA (of course) and other such programs and may be invest in next gen engines, Gen 6/7 fighter jets, RADARs, and so on and so forth. As Philip said, purchase more Su-30MKI, refuelers, AWACS to take care of immediate threat level.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 18 Nov 2014 01:05

Does the IAF have a post "MMRCA" thinking? If so, does anyone know what it is? Hard to believe that the IAF is still thinking only about the MMRCA nad have no further plans.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby brar_w » 18 Nov 2014 02:34

F-35 will not mean incorporating the F-35 into the MMRCA negotiations. MMRCA will have no meaning IF the F-35 is selected.


You cannot do that. MRCA has/had GOALS, which were written by the IAF. The F-35 would need to be tested. You also would not want to end up with a sole vendor situation so you have to have another competition. See how messy this is going to get? Simplicity should always win. A decade has been spent (probably more) to get to where the IAF is, better to find a middle ground and get the fighter the IAF selected for its needs as quickly as possible.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 18 Nov 2014 02:36

xave wrote:I agree the Rafael is grossly overpriced , but will we even get the F-35 even if we asked khan for it?
If they do agree, will we get the full technology F-35 ? I really dont want to see all that hard earned money given away for a downgraded monkey export model.


We got the P-8I. If requested this shouldn't be an issue. With regard to technology, they've invested close to half a billion IIRC to make the F-35 'hack-proof', so as to enable it to compete for exports. Given the level of software integration involved in the fighter, a theoretical downgraded 'monkey' model will be far far more expensive than the normal version.

nik wrote:Once more - This will work only only if we use F-35 against China. For Pakis, expect remote control turn off. Not that we will need them to blast antique paki stuff. Cost of any imported ordinance (source irrelevant) will be more 2~5x times of target cost - so need cheap and plentiful DESI stuff for Pakis.

Actually, given that a conventional Indo-Pak military conflict is bound to end in India's favour, they have absolutely no incentive to interrupt military supplies. Even if they wanted to sway the result of the war (which they don't), they know that it can't be done. So they have no reason to make a futile attempt which will only incur India's ire and hurt their credibility in the arms market.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 18 Nov 2014 02:36

vishvak wrote:Rafale can be very versatile to begin with - no denying that. If we are not buying Rafale, better to invest in FGFA, AMCA, LCA (of course) and other such programs and may be invest in next gen engines, Gen 6/7 fighter jets, RADARs, and so on and so forth. As Philip said, purchase more Su-30MKI, refuelers, AWACS to take care of immediate threat level.


The Tejas and Su-30MKI are adequate for most run-of-the-mill tasks. At the higher end, there's a still a vacuum. The Rafale doesn't have the VLO capabilities needed to 'take the fight to the enemy'. The PAK FA has a degree of LO but its ESM systems (and LPI radar) are open to question - critical for SEAD/DEAD and ELINT missions. Will also employ an external LDP, making stealth even harder to achieve in strike missions. And finally, it remains to be seen if it can match western standards of reliability and maintenance, especially with respect to the new engine under development.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 18 Nov 2014 02:47

brar_w wrote:You cannot do that. MRCA has/had GOALS, which were written by the IAF.

And sold to the govt with a (higher-end) budget estimate of $12 billion.

The F-35 would need to be tested. You also would not want to end up with a sole vendor situation so you have to have another competition.

The Rafale's financial bids expired in Mar 2013 IIRC. We are, for all intents and purposes, already in a sole vendor situation.

See how messy this is going to get? Simplicity should always win. A decade has been spent (probably more) to get to where the IAF is, better to find a middle ground and get the fighter the IAF selected for its needs as quickly as possible.

We cannot divorce ourselves from economics when contemplating a potential clash against the China. Every rupee spent on 'simplicity' (path of least resistance?), is a rupee less available for other equipment. An efficient bureaucracy can still make a monumental blunder when gambling at this scale.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby brar_w » 18 Nov 2014 02:55

We cannot divorce ourselves from economics when contemplating a potential clash against the China. Every rupee spent on 'simplicity' (path of least resistance?), is a rupee less available for other equipment. An efficient bureaucracy can still make a monumental blunder when gambling at this scale


So how would this F-35 deal be structured? End discussions with Dassault and France and enter into a single vendor deal with Lockheed? Don't think it will or can be so simple even with the new regime in charge. Any decision to do something like , end the MRCA and do something "else" will likely take as long. And that would then pretty much gut completely any reason for acquiring the MRCA in the first place.

Just my 2 cents..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 18 Nov 2014 03:20

brar_w wrote:So how would this F-35 deal be structured? End discussions with Dassault and France and enter into a single vendor deal with Lockheed? Don't think it will or can be so simple even with the new regime in charge. Any decision to do something like , end the MRCA and do something "else" will likely take as long. And that would then pretty much gut completely any reason for acquiring the MRCA in the first place.


Trouble is the Rafale doesn't provide any immediate relief for the IAF's numbers crisis. One squadron is all we'll have operational by the end of the decade (delivered 2018-19).

So if it doesn't provide any short term fillip in strength and doesn't deliver a substantial qualitative advantage over our primary adversary, the only remaining reason for going through with the purchase is the prospect of ToT. That was one thing at $12bn, another thing at $15bn, but at $20bn+, its quite simply an awful deal. It'll be a lot cheaper (and probably more useful) to pay Dassault directly for consultancy on the AMCA program.

As for the alternative, boost Tejas Mk1 production, increase the budgeting for the Mk2, and finalize the Super Sukhoi upgrade. Then invite Sukhoi and LM for presentations on their respective offerings delivered off-the-shelf and request prospective pricing. If the PAK FA can offer full multirole capabilities in the same timeline, opt for the more cost effective package of the two. If not, sign an FMS deal for a limited number of aircraft. Follow up depending on how the FGFA pans out (this provide some leverage if nothing else).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 Nov 2014 04:16

^^^:"So how would this F-35 deal be structured? End discussions with Dassault and France and enter into a single vendor deal with Lockheed? Don't think it will or can be so simple even with the new regime in charge. Any decision to do something like , end the MRCA and do something "else" will likely take as long. And that would then pretty much gut completely any reason for acquiring the MRCA in the first place. "

Nothing is simple with Indian defense. We will do a 'gap filler' as we have always done and which is what the MMRCA increasingly becomes as each day passes.

All the IAF ever wanted initially was more M2Ks, dating back to 2000 to replace the MiG 21s. Since GoI did not want a single vendor deal, it was opened up to others and then it morphed into the MMRCA to include 2 engined a/c. etc. etc. The MMRCA RFPs (including some 653 specifics??) were drawn up for political reasons as much or more than for operational reasons.

The F-35 deal will(if it happens) will be puffed up as 'top end capability, interoperable with US, Japan, SOKO (?) et al. upgraded with Israeli stuff (with ToT of course) that regular 'export' versions don't have such as cyber attack capability. The US will throw in some stuff for political reasons such as engine 'assembly' in India along with servicing capability. Roll that up with a FMS and you've got the picture.

We will then gloat at how clever we've been to delay since we get cutting edge much like: "hey we avoided the expense of building landlines and leapfrogged to mobiles etc.

All will be well until the next gap filler event.

Shows you the amazing possibilities when you don't have a strategy.

Like they say" "when you don't know where you want to go, any road will get you there."

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Cosmo_R » 18 Nov 2014 04:25

Viv S wrote:
We cannot divorce ourselves from economics when contemplating a potential clash against the China. Every rupee spent on 'simplicity' (path of least resistance?), is a rupee less available for other equipment. An efficient bureaucracy can still make a monumental blunder when gambling at this scale.


+1

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby VijayN » 18 Nov 2014 04:33

FWIW - An article on the costs of the F35

https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost

F-35A: $98 million
F-35B: $104 million
F-35C: $116 million

An F-35A purchased in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will be $85 million, which is the equivalent of $75 million in today’s dollars.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 18 Nov 2014 04:40



You cannot do that. MRCA has/had GOALS, which were written by the IAF. The F-35 would need to be tested. You also would not want to end up with a sole vendor situation so you have to have another competition. See how messy this is going to get? Simplicity should always win. A decade has been spent (probably more) to get to where the IAF is, better to find a middle ground and get the fighter the IAF selected for its needs as quickly as possible.


Short answer: MMRCA is up for a MLU.

In addition to all that has been said, we just cannot live so far in the past. It was what, 2000 or so when the IAF wanted the M2K? So, IF teh M2K was purchased the lead air crafts would have been ready for the famous acronym "MLU".

The MMRCA GOALS are up for a MLU.

Plenty of things have changed since then.

They decided to dump the M2K - the IAF was perfectly happy with the M2K - and make these rules. And the IAF went along with the new rules.

The GoI can change the rules. And, the IAf can go along. What has changed not to make + follow this rule?


We seem to be more concerned about rules, France, Dassault, the IAF, etc. India should matter too. Not too late to correct the situation. China is not going to attack. Don't worry.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 18 Nov 2014 08:52

Indian Phase of Aviaindra-2014 Russia-India Air Forces Drills Kicks Off

The Indian stage of the Aviaindra-2014 Russia-India joint drills of air forces have started at the Halwara air base, Russian Defense Ministry announces.

MOSCOW, November 17 (Sputnik) — The Aviaindra-2014 Russian and Indian joint drills have started at the Halwara air base in northwest India, Russian Defense Ministry spokesperson Col. Igor Klimov told the reporters on Monday.

"The drills' scenario comprises joint day and night flying with the engagement of ground targets by Russian-Indian crews on Sukhoi Su-30MKI (Flanker-H) fighters, and Mil Mi-35 (Hind-E) and Mil Mi-17 (Hip) helicopters," the official said.

Pilots from the Indian and Russian Air Forces' army aviation will carry out high altitude flights, while Mil-35 combined crews will attack hypothetical air targets. It is planned that the combined crews will carry out over 30 flights.

The Russian phase of the Aviaindra-2014 air force drills was held near the central Russian city of Lipetsk in September. Russian air defense personnel are currently examining Indian systems, preparing for the active stage of the drills, which is to be held on November 24-28.

Russia and India also held the Indra-2014 tactical drills from September 23 to October 2. The two countries' militaries practised the joint defense of strategic government facilities and combating illegal armed groups.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby mody » 18 Nov 2014 17:50

Not sure if this is the right thread or not, but since all the discussion about F35 and MMRCA is taking place everywhere, here goes...my two naiya paisa:

If we are to spend US$ 20 Billion, this is what I would prefer to see:
1). Buy 126 F35A for the IAF, through FMS route. Maybe an option for 24 F35B for the navy may be kept open.
2). Get USA and in turn GE to agree to complete transfer of technology for F414 engine, including assistance in setting up the complete manufacturing facility in India. India would be free to use the tech gained, to design newer or larger versions.
The contracted 99 F414 engines would be supplied by GE as a direct purchase and further they would give us the complete tech and help us set up the manufacturing plant, including tech related to the latest EP version with 115 KN thrust. F414 is the not the latest engine tech as far as the US is concerned and for the returns that we offer, as given below and for the sake of the new strategic partnership with NaMo and all, we might be able to pull this off.

What USA gets in return:
1). US$ 20 Billion, for the outright purchase of F35A, + training+ overhaul and service facility+weapons.
If required, we can add an additional 1-2 billion for GE, for their tech and troubles. The 99 engines that we are buying are for the LCA program and have already been accounted for.
2). We cancel the MMRCA deal, thus effectively curtailing French aerospace industry. Without further orders for Rafael, the french will be hard pressed to go for further research and develop their own 5th gen fighters etc. Sooner or later, the French themselves may end up buying a few F35s. The French apart from the Russians, have been the biggest competitors for US figher aircrafts in the past. Hence ending this competition for the US, is a plus for them.
3). We cancel the FGFA program. We have spent a couple of hundred million for this program perhaps, but we are not really going to gain a whole lot of tech. Already our work share has been reduced to 13%, which basically only the Indian customization part. Pretty much like Su-30 MKI. Dump this program. This will deny the russians 5.5 to 6 bilion in funding for this program, plus reduces the number of PAKFA planes to be made by about 40%. This will drive up the cost of the program significantly for the Russians.
This is something that Khan is desperately trying to do.

We can do the above and invest all our R&D efforts into the LCA-MKII and maybe MKIII and AMCA. We would gain the critical engine tech, which we can then work to reduce the IR signature and also maybe design a bigger 130-140 KN power plant. Even just having the tech for a good 115 KN engine, would jump start our AMCA program.

We already have most of the other aircraft manufacturing tech, within reach. Engine still seems to be some way off. Everything else, we can manage within the next 5-8 years, with sustained effort.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby abhik » 18 Nov 2014 19:15

MRCA had no 'meaning' or 'goal'. It is just another and hoc purchase, just like every other fighter bought before it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby brar_w » 18 Nov 2014 19:58

Get USA and in turn GE to agree to complete transfer of technology for F414 engine, including assistance in setting up the complete manufacturing facility in India. India would be free to use the tech gained, to design newer or larger versions.
The contracted 99 F414 engines would be supplied by GE as a direct purchase and further they would give us the complete tech and help us set up the manufacturing plant, including tech related to the latest EP version with 115 KN thrust. F414 is the not the latest engine tech as far as the US is concerned and for the returns that we offer, as given below and for the sake of the new strategic partnership with NaMo and all, we might be able to pull this off.


That would be problematic, since GE has no "skin in the game" when it comes to the F-35 deal. They aren't making any money through a sale of 126 F-35's including sustainment contracts etc. GE has a large "corporate" component in the continuous development of the F414 family. The proper way to do this would be to express interest through a large sustained contract for production and sustainment, and let your private OEM's take advantage of the new policy and go out and work deals with GE to get this engine to India. I'd do the same of the C-130 if possible. Let the corporates work out the best way to set this up, and you pay them fixed price contracts for the same. Use the size of the order (number and years) to negotiate transfer of tech so that you can get it onto your products for the future.

We cancel the MMRCA deal, thus effectively curtailing French aerospace industry.


It would suffer a setback, but they'll get over it. Sooner or later the french would realize that their global power and ambitions have to be severely scaled back given their size and their economy and that of the power shifting towards Asia. At that stage I expect them to open up the doors to China and that would only be limited/balanced by what affect the US pressure has on them. They will soon realize that China would be on a very rapid trajectory in Aerospace and Defense modernization and therefore their "edge" in this field, that is largely based on investments in the last 4-5 decades will eventually come to an end. At that point I expect them to open the floodgates and try to sell what they can to China . Most smaller countries with high tech would look to do this. In the long run you'll have a much better integrated EU (with individual capability of nations reduced), US, Russia, China and India. I expect individual EU nations to transfer a lot of tech to the developing nations and milk whatever edge they have for they know the gap will be narrowed in the next 3-4 decades if not earlier.
Last edited by brar_w on 18 Nov 2014 20:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Liu » 18 Nov 2014 20:26

brar_w wrote:
Get USA and in turn GE to agree to complete transfer of technology for F414 engine, including assistance in setting up the complete manufacturing facility in India. India would be free to use the tech gained, to design newer or larger versions.
The contracted 99 F414 engines would be supplied by GE as a direct purchase and further they would give us the complete tech and help us set up the manufacturing plant, including tech related to the latest EP version with 115 KN thrust. F414 is the not the latest engine tech as far as the US is concerned and for the returns that we offer, as given below and for the sake of the new strategic partnership with NaMo and all, we might be able to pull this off.


That would be problematic, since GE has no "skin in the game" when it comes to the F-35 deal. They aren't making any money through a sale of 126 F-35's including sustainment contracts etc. GE has a large "corporate" component in the continuous development of the F414 family. The proper way to do this would be to express interest through a large sustained contract for production and sustainment, and let your private OEM's take advantage of the new policy and go out and work deals with GE to get this engine to India. I'd do the same of the C-130 if possible. Let the corporates work out the best way to set this up, and you pay them fixed price contracts for the same.

We cancel the MMRCA deal, thus effectively curtailing French aerospace industry.


It would suffer a setback, but they'll get over it. Sooner or later the french would realize that their global power and ambitions have to be severely scaled back given their size and their economy and that of the power shifting towards Asia. At that stage I expect them to open up the doors to China and that would only be limited/balanced by what affect the US pressure has on them. They will soon realize that China would be on a very rapid trajectory in Aerospace and Defense modernization and therefore their "edge" in this field, that is largely based on investments in the last 4-5 decades will eventually come to an end. At that point I expect them to open the floodgates and try to sell what they can to China . Most smaller countries with high tech would look to do this. In the long run you'll have a much better integrated EU (with individual capability of nations reduced), US, Russia, China and India. I expect individual EU nations to transfer a lot of tech to the developing nations and milk whatever edge they have for they know the gap will be narrowed in the next 3-4 decades if not earlier.

anyone of E.U. states can neither afford huge R&D fund of the next G weapons such as bird and main warships,nor have enough demestic demand to provide enough orders to maintain a complete defense industy chains...................so,if E.U. were not to integrate itself further, its defence industry will decline sooon.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby darshhan » 18 Nov 2014 20:55

From another thread.

Singha wrote:
while ADA is busy with scale models of the AMCA for aeroindia, Cheen is busy gathering reams of actual data vs various radar and EO spectrum from a flying proto. we are not remotely close to rolling out the TD of the AMCA. they have taken a lead of atleast 10 years in this vital area. truth is harsh but needs to be acknowledged


AMCA will most likely be obsolete by the time it enters service (ie about 2030). It would make more sense to focus completely on UCAVs instead including "AURA". As it is the quantity of skilled aviation technology manpower available to us is limited, which in turn makes the execution of multiple parallel programs exceedingly difficult if not improbable.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 18 Nov 2014 21:15

There is a lot of unintended confusion - "5th Gen" being the greatest among them.

However, in 2030:

* US should be fielding the FX (to replace the F-22 + F-15 for the USAF) and FA-XX, both "6th Gen"
* Russia should be about 1/3 the way into their PAK-FA "5th Gen"
* China should be in about on the same page with their "5th Gen" planes
* India on the other hand, the AMCA should be a "5.5 Gen"

Unmanned vehicles are crucial, but I am not sure if they are at the expense of manned vehicles. I am not sure if they would have matured to the extent needed to perform in the envs of the 2030s. And, which nation has the resources to do that?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby mody » 19 Nov 2014 13:41

Well the way I see it, we have the following options:

Option A
1). finalize the Rafael deal and get hooked for $30 billion over the next 20 years.
2). Develop the LCA MKII as we are doing.
3). Continue with the FGFA program and spend an additional $5.5. billion on the development and further $ 100 million per plane for the 120 to 140 odd that we plan to buy.
The above will basically mean no more money for the AMCA development and also as we will remain busy with LCA MKII development till 2020 and there after with getting the FGFA manufacturing started. Not to mention, the screw driver work for Rafael. The AMCA will most likely be closed. The effort will then be directed towards AURA, RUSTOM etc. The Indian aerospace industry does not progress beyond LCA MKII.

Option B
1). Cancel MMRCA program.
2). Develop LCA MKII as fast as possible and increase the build nos. for LCA MKI and LCA MKII, to make up for the numbers shortfall.
3). Continue with the FGFA program and spend an additional $5.5. billion on the development and further $ 100 million per plane for the 120 to 140 odd that we plan to buy.
4). Start with the AMCA program and try to leverage any tech gained from the FGFA program for AMCA. This will not be easy as we will not be getting much tech transfer and whatever we get, will be rather late in the day for the AMCA.
AMCA might get ready by 2030, if we are lucky. Yet a state of the art engine tech, suitable for 5th gen aircraft, would be difficult master. The same struggles and time delays that have dogged the LCA program, will most likely affect the AMCA program as well.

Option C
1). Cancel MMRCA program.
2). cancel FGFA program.
3). Buy 126 F-35A through FMS. Get engine tech as reward for having cancelled MMRCA and FGFA and buying F35. The deliveries for F-35A to start from 2018 onwards. Spend $ 20-22 Billion on the acquisition, including tech for the engine, with the manufacturing tech. Engine tech transfer to begin immediately, i.e. say 2016 onwards. Also, should be free to make modifications to design. Might be forced to share the design changes made, back with GE. No export allowed for 5 years after local manufacture starts. Thereafter free to export, as part of aircraft, but not as a stand alone engine.
4). Develop the LCA MKII. Increase the number of LCA MKII, as after the first 99 engines, the rest would be indigenous (through the tech transfer). Also develop LCA MKIII, to test out the technologies being developed for AMCA, before the platform gets ready to fly.
5). Start development of AMCA. With engine tech procured, this would be a huge plus for the program.
6). Develop aerospace related infrastructure like engine test facility, wind tunnels etc., if we have extra money and can afford it.
The first flight of AMCA MK1, by 2025.

Personally I would prefer option C from the above as I feel that is what is in India's best interest. I do not care what is in Russia's or USA's or France's best interest, not do I care about preserving competition in global military fighter plane market. Heck, if we go with Option C, along USA, Russia and China, India will emerge as the next aerospace power beyond 2020.

The way I see it, for India to emerge as a serious player, the biggest deficiency right now is good engine tech. The rest we can manage, with enough effort, over the next 7-8 years. This is something we have to get, if we are ready to spend $20 Billion.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 19 Nov 2014 18:35

What the US did in the past was very well known (and publicized). What about Japan and Australia? They too looked at India as a country dog. Australia used to look at India as a threat to the IoR - especially the build up of the IN. And, today the same nation is cheering India on the same topic - building the IN!!!!

And, what did the Chinese Prez say *on Indian soil*, just a few weeks ago? He too tied a leash around the Indian neck.

I still think that the Putin visit will provide some insight. Having said that the data points do not paint a nice picture. That relationship has seen a dramatic change too - unlike other it is not adversarial, but the bolts are coming loose. As china rises we should see a very slow disengagement in some areas.

That is how these things work. Unfortunate, but that is the reality. The present Indian gov is doing the best job possible under the circumstances.

The FGFA is the next stop. It is equally as needed as a MMRCA. Just that there some slack to be cut on terms of time (not really). ?????




BTW, to some extent, we seem to be 'neglecting' the AMCA Puttering around the internet found these two articles from nearly 2 years ago:

India’s stealth fighter dream takes shape in Bangalore | AMCA configuration in final stages

Military sources confirm to Express that the configuration of AMCA has reached the final stages


India's AMCA will be studded with new-age technologies | Silent R&D work going on in DRDO, CSIR, IIT & private labs

Sources confirm to Express that silent R&D work has been going on in multiple centers of Defence Research and Development Organisation, Indian Institute of Technology, the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research and select private industries.


Some have been asking how much progress has been made. I have no clue. But, what I do know is the about (silent) R&D and that work has been in progress for some years now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 20 Nov 2014 15:49

Does anyone know the status of Jaguar re-engining program? There's been no new info since AI-13.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby krishnan » 20 Nov 2014 15:53

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... galore.htm

Bangalore. State-run defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has test flown the upgraded version of Jaguar fighter with latest avionics for re-induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF) after final certification and clearance, an official said.

"The upgrade will enable the 'Darin III' Jaguar to fly in all-weather with air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea capabilities, using latest avionics and multi-mode radar," HAL chairman R.K. Tyagi said in a statement here.

The new version boasts of mission computer, engine and flight instrument system, solid state digital recording system and data recorder, autopilot, radar, global positioning system and radar warning receiver.

"The upgraded aircraft has also modern navigation, electronic warfare and weapon delivery system with latest man-machine interface near the glass cockpit and two multi-function displays and head-up display," Tyagi said.

The company's mission and combat system research centre re-designed the ground attack aircraft spanning its software, hardware and sub-systems while its overhaul division carried the trial modification.

"The maiden test flight was carried under the leadership of Air Vice Marshal Raghunath Nambiar by our flight test centre jointly with the air force's Aircraft System Testing Establishment (ASTE) and the IAF's software development institute here."
IAF is modernising its fleet of 120 Jaguars with higher power engines and autopilots at an estimated cost of Rs.3,013 crore after three decades of service. US Honeywell has already been given the RfP for engine upgrade.

The nuclear capable Anglo-French Jaguars have been stationed at their home base in Ambala in northern India since their induction about 30 years ago.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 20 Nov 2014 16:02

That's from Nov 2012. Essentially, no news on the re-engine front.


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