Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 19 May 2015 20:27

deejay wrote:Have they started the test flights of IJT again? I think I saw one just now - it did not look like the Hawk AJT (Not a close look so could be wrong). I saw another one flying about a week or so back.

I think flight tests are going on. I read a news item a few weeks ago saying that some xyz number of flight tests has been reached with IIRC three prototypes. I think the IAF has actually placed an order for a certain number of IJTs - and HAL seems to have clamped down on news. I have read no report that the order was cancelled.

In addition to this I think HAL keeps spies to watch out for me the road next to the airport and all test flying is suspended when I am on the golf course - knowing that I will report anything that I see.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 19 May 2015 21:53

^^^ I am going to be on that road right beside the airport shortly and I have an office nearby. My long range Digital Single Lens Reflector is ready to shoot - Ha ha ha.

On a serious note, in the present winds the take off direction is in opposite direction to the Golf Course and landing is from over the Golf Course but they go audio stealth, i.e. throttle to idle (almost).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 19 May 2015 22:23

They never stopped it. They just can't test some things.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 20 May 2015 05:54

deejay wrote:^^^ I am going to be on that road right beside the airport shortly and I have an office nearby. My long range Digital Single Lens Reflector is ready to shoot - Ha ha ha.

On a serious note, in the present winds the take off direction is in opposite direction to the Golf Course and landing is from over the Golf Course but they go audio stealth, i.e. throttle to idle (almost).

In any case IJT is very small and very quiet.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 20 May 2015 11:19

IAF to spend Rs 400 cr to upgrade repair depots

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 82922.html

excerpts
“It is a large project involving a budget of about Rs 400 crore,” Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Maintenance Command, Air Marshal Jagjeet Singh told The Tribune during his visit to No. 3 Base Repair Depot here today. “We issued requests for proposals in February. The received technical bids will be opened next month,” he said.
The technical evaluation committee is expected to take about four months thereafter to scrutinise all documents and forward the shortlisted proposals to the government for approval. The project will be executed in collaboration with the industry.
The IAF’s Nagpur-based Maintenance Command has 13 BRDs located across the country that provide engineering and maintenance support for its aircraft, weapon systems, radars and other equipment. Besides overhaul and repair, these are also responsible for undertaking suitable modifications and retrofitting aircraft and equipment to meet specific operational requirements. Air Marshal Jagjeet Singh said the IAF was debating whether to set up a new BRD to met future requirements.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 21 May 2015 09:10

Bhaskar_T wrote:Shiv ji - Thanks. Would you be able to identify the aircraft (very poor pictures though)?

Image Image



Mirage 2000

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby kmkraoind » 21 May 2015 09:21

Somehow I think Mirage landing on Indian roads is significant moment for me, so I am posting all the images and tweets of MoD spokesperson, so bear with me.

Sitanshu Kar @SpokespersonMoD
- Mirage 2000 lands on Yamuna Expressway.
- Sequence of Events leading to test landing of Mirage 2000 on Yamuna Expressway near Delhi. Set-1
- Sequence of Events leading to test landing of Mirage 2000 on Yamuna Expressway near Delhi. Set-2.
- Test landing of Mirage 2000 on Yamuna Expressway near Delhi. Set-3. http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease. ... lid=121896


Indian Air Force(IAF) Mirage -2000 Lands at Yamuna Expressway

The IAF has been considering the use of national highways for emergency landing by fighter aircraft.

This capability was demonstrated by IAF on May 21, 2015 by a Mirage-2000 aircraft which got airborne from one of the IAF bases in Central India. All facilities like make shift Air Traffic Control, safety services, rescue vehicles, bird clearance parties and other requirements were set up by IAF personnel from Air Force Station Agra. Thereafter, in coordination with the District Magistrate and SP of Agra and Mathura, necessary tie up was carried out for activation of the selected stretch. The aircraft made a practice approach on the highway, coming down to a height of 100 mtrs before landing off the next approach. The operations were conducted with active support from the government of Uttar Pradesh, Yamuna Expressway Authority, Toll authorities of JP Infratech and Civil Police.

The IAF has plans to activate more such stretches on highways in the future.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 21 May 2015 10:06

In the event of Nuke war where Air bases are under nuke attack. This gives the IAF the ability to continue emergency operations from the national highway system.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srin » 21 May 2015 11:08

The co-operation of civilian authorities (DMs etc as the report mentions) is very critical in such usage. Such drills are very important for DMs and police to understand their roles. We need more of these ...

Btw, are there no powerlines or street lights along the entire stretch or just this part ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 21 May 2015 11:20

In general, for the Agra expressway, the lights are concentrated around toll plazas. So if you are sufficiently distant from it you can conduct exercises of this nature.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 21 May 2015 12:46

the effort being spent on such road landing means the IAF expects PLAAF/TSPAF to potentially open a future war with a volley of tactical nuclear strikes or heavy cruise missile strikes on the key bases in the north, hence attaining air superiority for the duration of a 14 day war.

in the east there are some disused WW2 era bases, some of which are used as farmland or highway builders used the runway section, but look for 3-4 satellite bases to be activated around each main one.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 22 May 2015 01:43

A long awaited step. Good to see HAL finally take visible steps towards ESA certification.

HAL Completes Noise Measurement Flight Trials for ALH for European Certification

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 27 May 2015 04:27

Nice to see.

HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar

Among various LCA related topic:

A key technology being adopted now is 3D printing, which will cut design and production time by months. This is now being used for engines but it is being adopted for various aspects of aircraft design and production.


Should speed up a good deal of projects.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 27 May 2015 05:34

Update on the build of the HTT-40.

Indian Turboprop Trainer to Fly by Year End

The Hindustan Turborprop Trainer (HTT) 40 will mark its first flight by this year end with structural work of the front and rear fuselages almost completed, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) sources told Defenseworld.net correspondent.

The HTT 40 had almost been killed earlier in favor of the much more expensive Pilatus PC 7 which the Indian Air Force had purchased despite strong objection from HAL on grounds that their own aircraft was in an advanced stage of development.

However, the program got a shot in the arm when India's Defence Acquisition Council under defence minister Mahohar Parrikar decided to order 68 HTT 40 aircraft from HAL while curtailing a follow-on order from Pilatus.

HAL had first invested Rs 350 crores (US$58 million) out of its internal funds in the project. The scope included the building of three prototypes and two test specimens. This included detailed designing process, fabrications of the canopy and windscreen, besides the front fuselage.

The forging of the main landing gear axle and the barrel along with the nose landing gear barrel has been completed. Wind tunnel testing of the fabricated portion has been completed.

The HTT-40 is a tandem seat trainer aircraft being developed at HAL for the first stage training of rookie pilots. With advanced features like zero-zero ejection seats and multi function displays, it can also be adapted as a light attack aircraft.

Besides basic flying training, aerobatics, instrument flying, navigation, night flying and close formation flying are the tasks HTT-40 is designed to accomplish.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 27 May 2015 06:17

NRao wrote:Nice to see.

HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar

Among various LCA related topic:

A key technology being adopted now is 3D printing, which will cut design and production time by months. This is now being used for engines but it is being adopted for various aspects of aircraft design and production.


Should speed up a good deal of projects.


...
The current LCA-MkI version uses 210 kilos with ballast in the nose to stabilize the aircraft. This will be removed, and the AESA and EW suite weighing about 250 kilos will be added. The net weight gain will be of about 50 kilos.
...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 27 May 2015 09:19

The GOI should invest in setting up an unspecified number of emergency airstrips with the requisite min. infrastructure to be operated in any emergency.If a crisis develops into a nuclear one then all bets are off.Our very survival will depend upon our second strike capability and given the huge increase in Chinese and Paki N-arsenals,we will have to do likewise otherwise they will use the abacus and feel confident of launching a surprise N-first strike to defang us.

The glaring lack of a strategic bomber for the IA,with legs long enough to reach China and using stand-off N-tipped missiles,is a crying need to be redressed. The IN's Tu-142 Bears should be upgraded to make them N-capable,just as the Russians are currently using them testing NATO/UK defences.Additional P-8Is,IL-38s (if available),should be acquired to augment the LRMP neds,so that the Bears role can be multi-tasked for N-strike. If Backfires are available as well,and they are in large qty., they should also be considered.

Our principal air bases should also be protected by a series of SAMs,including ABM systems,as the Chinese will first fire massive missile attacks against us to cripple our air power. The new Chinese mil. doctrine just unveiled shows that it has decided to move from a defensive posture to a pro-active offensive one,even challenging the US to a war!

The GOI should review the emerging threat,growing more deadly by the day and act fast,taking emergency measures to upgrade and increase weaponry and infrastructure of the 3 services right now. A lot of eqpt. is and can be manufactured locally,which will spur industry both public and private. What cannot be produced internally should be obtained from abroad,either through JVs or G-to-G imports as with the Rafale,Chinooks,Apaches,etc. The IAF's 40+ sqds. requirement should also be accelerated, buying whatever cost-effective aircraft are available to make up numbers/ramping up LCA production.

The Sino-Paki-Saudi axis of evil is a very real military threat to India ,getting more and more emboldened by the day.The sad truth is that the US is doing very little about it and its allies and friends are getting alarmed.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 27 May 2015 10:55

Today around 11.15AM, I saw a strange aircraft taking off and landing later, near Marathahalli Bangalore, that was making sound more like a sports car and not as a jet engine

It was of silver gray, anyone knows about this new one?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 27 May 2015 11:49

^^^ Did it have long straight wings?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 27 May 2015 13:47

symontk wrote:Today around 11.15AM, I saw a strange aircraft taking off and landing later, near Marathahalli Bangalore, that was making sound more like a sports car and not as a jet engine

It was of silver gray, anyone knows about this new one?

In Bangalore, after the Saras test flights were stopped the only plane that makes the kind of noise you speak of is what I suspect is a privately owned Piaggio Avanti. Many a time I have run out hoping to see the Saras and have been disappointed to see this

Did it look like this?
Image

The other possibility is Rustom 1
Image

In general symontk, for recognition, note whether wings were straight or swept back and how many engines there were and where they were placed if visible

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 27 May 2015 13:55

NRao wrote:Nice to see.

HAL developing LCA-1P with AESA Radar

Among various LCA related topic:

A key technology being adopted now is 3D printing, which will cut design and production time by months. This is now being used for engines but it is being adopted for various aspects of aircraft design and production.


Should speed up a good deal of projects.


Nothing in this article other than a proposal for more screw driver work. There's just a proposal to potentially use ELTA's AESA radar and nothing substantive at all.
What is HAL using the 3D printing for? Which engines? Only couple of months ago first such bits were reported by GE and a development team in Australia. I seriously doubt if HAL has anything currently going on there. Again, HAL is peddling dreams that it doesn't have anything to back them with.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 27 May 2015 18:18

shiv wrote:In Bangalore, after the Saras test flights were stopped the only plane that makes the kind of noise you speak of is what I suspect is a privately owned Piaggio Avanti. Many a time I have run out hoping to see the Saras and have been disappointed to see this

Did it look like this?

The other possibility is Rustom 1

In general symontk, for recognition, note whether wings were straight or swept back and how many engines there were and where they were placed if visible


It was like a fighter jet, and that was intrigued me

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby udy » 27 May 2015 19:03

xposting my old post from AI 2015 in the pinned kaveri thread.

The core of the 25kn engine (being built by HAL) will have 3d printed blades /parts.

Ref: 2nd speaker from HAL at AI seminar 2015 on the last day (theme - Propulsion).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 27 May 2015 19:13

Only couple of months ago first such bits were reported by GE and a development team in Australia


GE has been at it for years now.

BTW, the space station uses printing techs to build parts to get work done in space.

There was an article on a complete car based on 3D printing.

Old stuff.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby abhik » 28 May 2015 00:21

symontk wrote:Today around 11.15AM, I saw a strange aircraft taking off and landing later, near Marathahalli Bangalore, that was making sound more like a sports car and not as a jet engine

It was of silver gray, anyone knows about this new one?

I think what you saw was the IJT. Got a pretty good look from my office.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 28 May 2015 08:58

abhik wrote:
symontk wrote:Today around 11.15AM, I saw a strange aircraft taking off and landing later, near Marathahalli Bangalore, that was making sound more like a sports car and not as a jet engine

It was of silver gray, anyone knows about this new one?

I think what you saw was the IJT. Got a pretty good look from my office.


Why that different sound? new engine perhaps?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby uddu » 28 May 2015 09:02

Thats the new IAF requirement that the engine must sound like a sports car.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 28 May 2015 10:08

uddu wrote:Thats the new IAF requirement that the engine must sound like a sports car.


Added later: oops missed the post :) The engine is smaller in the IJT and also probably it was heard at the throttled back settings.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 02 Jun 2015 10:20

36 Rafale not enough, IAF uneasy, Day after Parrikar said 126 jets ‘too many’, Air Force raises concern over depleting fleet
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar’s decision to buy only 36 Rafale fighter jets from France—instead of the initially proposed 126—has not found favour with the Indian Air Force, which feels the pared number would not be enough to meet its operational requirement.
The IAF brass has prepared a blueprint of its needs and plans to present it before the Defence Minister, who is expected to return to Delhi tomorrow.
Parrikar had, in an interview to a news agency yesterday, said buying 126 jets, as proposed by the previous UPA government, was “economically unviable”.
The IAF, said sources, would project its requirement before the minister and state that a “mere” 36 jets would not meet the shortfall occurring due to the phasing out of MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets by 2022.
The force had projected an immediate requirement of 126 Rafale-type medium multi-role combat aircraft, though it would need 400 jets over the next 10 years.
As of now, the IAF has 34 fighter jet squadrons (having 16-18 planes each) against its projected requirement of 42 squadrons to tackle any simultaneous war with China and Pakistan.
A mixed ancestry and level of technology marks the 640-odd fighter jet fleet, largely imported from Russia over the past 30 years. British and French companies have supplied about 150 planes.
The IAF is likely to raise two demands before Parrikar: Replacing the around 260 obsolete MiG-21s and MiG-27s (Soviet Union-era single-engine fighter jets) and adding 145-150 jets to have a fleet that is 42-squadron strong.
In October last year, IAF Chief Air Marshall Arup Raha had said, “We are left with quite a few with a majority of our fleet being in a phase-out mode. The drawdown has to be tackled by quick induction of medium multi-role and light combat aircraft.”
Speaking at the Aero-India Show in February, the Air Marshall had reiterated his demand saying: “We urgently need planes... may not necessarily be Rafales.”
Former IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshall (retd) PK Barbora said, “One of the options to meet the shortfall is through a tie-up with another country to produce next lot of light-combat aircraft, Tejas, and not wait for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or the Defence Research and Development Organisation to manufacture these.”


http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 88331.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 02 Jun 2015 10:39

sure, we can get Saab to license make the Tejas to speed up production rates.

under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should Gripen be allowed a back door into our den...I would rather live with used F-16s from the tspaf than gripen.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 02 Jun 2015 10:51

The fleet replacement for IAF is very large and there is no way Tejas would come online in the time scale these fleet would be retired. Even the DM puts the tejas procurement program at 200 and IAF replacement program far exceeds that figure.

IAF officially states it has 34 squadron thats including the almost 200 Mig-21 and it wants to be at 39 the difference with retiring of Mig-21 , Mig-27 and Jags would be huge we might just drop to 24-26 squadron thats more like 10 -12 squadron replacement next decade.

Most likely Gripen would come in as our next light fighter

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby prahaar » 02 Jun 2015 11:10

Singha wrote:sure, we can get Saab to license make the Tejas to speed up production rates.

under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should Gripen be allowed a back door into our den...I would rather live with used F-16s from the tspaf than gripen.


10001+.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Jun 2015 11:10

Austin, give the orders I am sure we can churn out even 48 aircraft a year, we have ordered 40 and set up limit for 8 aircraft per year.

If we backed LCA like the swedes backed the Gripen, we would have the aircraft in service. Problem is 75% in India seem to be against a local solution.

The Truth is major players in the world are against us have a local capability, those involved in the gravy train from arms ccommissions, babus, import agents and those in Foreign NGO pay. There seems to be fare section of India which wants to see India fail which is not there in Sweden, China or US.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 02 Jun 2015 11:40

Its not the case of give me orders and production numbers will Ramp up , It takes around 14 years for HAL to ramp up production of MKI to 12-14 aircraft , what was the production rate of Jags , AJT , ALH over the years ?

The first bench mark I would look at is when HAL ramps Tejas production rate to 8 aircraft per year sustained after that we can think about 12 or 16.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srin » 02 Jun 2015 11:45

Austin wrote:Most likely Gripen would come in as our next light fighter


That would be a monumental tragedy and blunder. It would destroy our industry like cancellation of Avro Arrow did to Canadians.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 02 Jun 2015 12:28

srin wrote:
Austin wrote:Most likely Gripen would come in as our next light fighter


That would be a monumental tragedy and blunder. It would destroy our industry like cancellation of Avro Arrow did to Canadians.


IT would be but DM has hinted at Tejas or some other light fighter and the final numbers do not match up unless IAF wishes to stay with a much smaller squadron next decade

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 02 Jun 2015 12:43

this is a golden opportunity for HAL to step up the Tejas production to 20-25 fighters per year..push for a case to buy another 40 Tejas Mk1+ with AESA and internal EW suite to be able to justify the investment into the assembly line.

the MoD really needs to commit some more funds to the Mk2 program to accelerate it.

But I have this sinking feeling that HAL will manage to screw this up as well. Even as we enter June there is no news of the second series production Tejas, SP2..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 02 Jun 2015 13:17

What I said a long time ago,HAL must start a second prod. line for the LCA. Dump the small yet-to-succeed irritating programmes like the BTT,IJT,etc. to pvt. industry/IAF depots and use the infrastructure for production of more important projects/aircraft. A good beginning has been the LTA handed over to Tatas-Airbus. IF I'm right,the best prod. rate of HAL built aircraft has been the SU-30MKI,with over 16 built a yr. This is the best programme ever for HAL absorbing TOT to the max,where now "70%" of the aircraft is manufactured from desi raw material.

If we can build 16 MKIs a yr,surely we can build at least 24 smaller LCAs at least by 2020 ramping prod. up from 8 at BLore.But the problem is that for the MKIs, Sukhoi have supplied us with the whole caboodle for production,whereas,it is HAL that has to provide the input for the LCA. What is however really annoying is the incredible snail's pace of the LCA MK-2 and Jaguar upgrades,which will deliver the developed ,trialled prototypes not earlier than 2020,when the skies will become more crowded with 5th-gen stealth birds. Can anyone predict the attitude of the IAF 5 years hence when it will in all likelihood demand an aircraft with superior performance?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 02 Jun 2015 13:28

This news "36 not enough" involves some media bullshitting. Imagine that the Rafale deal as envisaged originally had been signed say 6 months ago. When would we have got 36 Rafales? Maybe by 2017-18? But would everyone have been happy then knowing that 90 more are to come?

So this story is bullshit. Let the friggin 36 come first - then we can see. The media have no work other than to churn out some crap or other to keep tongues wagging and eyes on their portals.

Juts 10 years ago we did not have so much "defence news". That is why BR was started. 30 years ago ther would have hardly been any news to discuss day in an day out.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Jun 2015 13:48

Kartik wrote:this is a golden opportunity for HAL to step up the Tejas production to 20-25 fighters per year..push for a case to buy another 40 Tejas Mk1+ with AESA and internal EW suite to be able to justify the investment into the assembly line.

the MoD really needs to commit some more funds to the Mk2 program to accelerate it.

But I have this sinking feeling that HAL will manage to screw this up as well. Even as we enter June there is no news of the second series production Tejas, SP2..


What set up production line, hire staff, train staff etc for 20 airplane orders, 20 for FOC standard not yet finalised and then happyily fire staff. The IAF(incl. chosen personal by Polictians, MOD of the day for promotions), GOI, politicians including dynasties and prodegues, MOD babus are as much to blame.

Hell, easy wary to blame HAl, but this a national failure, I can hardly expect the Babu, Officer and Politician, Media nexus is equally to blame.

Boldly order aircraft in nos..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 02 Jun 2015 14:59

shiv wrote:This news "36 not enough" involves some media bullshitting. Imagine that the Rafale deal as envisaged originally had been signed say 6 months ago. When would we have got 36 Rafales? Maybe by 2017-18? But would everyone have been happy then knowing that 90 more are to come?


Nope. 2020-21. Only the first squadron was to be delivered off-the-shelf between 2018 & 2019. The subsequent squadron would be assembled by HAL and delivered starting 2020. Perhaps by 2019 if HAL moved swiftly.


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