Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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arshyam
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby arshyam » 02 Jun 2015 18:50

Former IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshall (retd) PK Barbora said, “One of the options to meet the shortfall is through a tie-up with another country to produce next lot of light-combat aircraft, Tejas, and not wait for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or the Defence Research and Development Organisation to manufacture these.”

There is one silver lining: no comments like Tejas is x-legged cheetah/cheetal, etc., instead there is a comment on Tejas's delivery rate. That's a good thing. I take this to mean the IAF wants the Tejas to play a role in meeting their shortfall, and their major complaint is the production rate now. No comments on the foreign partner part.

To address the above, I think HAL a) needs more orders, but at the same time, needs b) a fire in the seat to get things going.

To address a), place a firm order of 100 Tejas Mk-1/1.5 with HAL, with options for more, and b) announce a private production vendor competition to get the Tatas, Mahindras, Taneja, etc. involved in making another 100 plus options. This plan b) can start ramping up by the time Mk-2 is ready. The options clause will be a carrot for further orders that could go to either HAL or the pvt vendor depending on who meets the timelines and satisfactory reports from IAF. Another carrot is the upgrade orders for Mk1 planes to 1.5 standard a few years later (I understand Mk-1 cannot be upgraded to Mk2). Yet another is the NLCA, that may be around 50(?) fighters.

The above will ensure we have 2 full-fledged homegrown manufacturers by the 2022-25 timeframe, ready for making the AMCA when it arrives.

At the same time, we need to get GE to tie up with a local vendor and make the engines here. We are looking at a minimum order book of 250, maybe 300 LCAs in one version or another. GE won't transfer the engine tech, but let's at least get the manufacturing process going without wasting further time on a mythical ToT.

Time to really start #MakeInIndia.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 02 Jun 2015 21:01

arshyam wrote:
Former IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshall (retd) PK Barbora said, “One of the options to meet the shortfall is through a tie-up with another country to produce next lot of light-combat aircraft, Tejas, and not wait for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or the Defence Research and Development Organisation to manufacture these.”

While I respect Barbora as a fighter jock - if he made this comment it sounds utterly dumb - like an ignoramus who thinks that some phoren nation will simply look at the "plans" and make Tejas fastly fastly cheaply cheaply. This indicates complete and utter ignorance of manufacturing. On the other hand some news media madarchod may be misquoting him - with every man and his uncle trying to make some money out of Indian defence.

Cadets from NDA or IAF induction level need to be taught about the strategic necessity and difficulties in design and manufacture in India. I think IAF pilots are the best in the world - but they don't seem to have any knowledge of manufacture.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 03 Jun 2015 03:41

shiv wrote:{quote="arshyam"}
Former IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshall (retd) PK Barbora said, “One of the options to meet the shortfall is through a tie-up with another country to produce next lot of light-combat aircraft, Tejas, and not wait for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or the Defence Research and Development Organisation to manufacture these.”
{/quote}
While I respect Barbora as a fighter jock - if he made this comment it sounds utterly dumb - like an ignoramus who thinks that some phoren nation will simply look at the "plans" and make Tejas fastly fastly cheaply cheaply. This indicates complete and utter ignorance of manufacturing. On the other hand some news media madarchod may be misquoting him - with every man and his uncle trying to make some money out of Indian defence.

Cadets from NDA or IAF induction level need to be taught about the strategic necessity and difficulties in design and manufacture in India. I think IAF pilots are the best in the world - but they don't seem to have any knowledge of manufacture.


Same goes with the IA. They are not a builder's army or airforce yet, and it seems like a lot of them don't have an idea on how R&D and manufacturing works.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 03 Jun 2015 07:03

BRF should have a thread to discuss fighting a war with imported weapon systems subject to embargoes, sanctions etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2015 07:12

sweden has far more exp in OEM production, thats why we should invite them to setup a line for Tejas in India in parallel with HAL to scale up numbers. they can provide the managers and production line tech as done for the Gripen, but we build Tejas off that line. we can call it GriTej if the MSM wants.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 03 Jun 2015 08:06

GD you can't be serious! HAL has quite a bit of experience with manufacture as well. This discussion is pointless.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 03 Jun 2015 08:16

Singha wrote:sweden has far more exp in OEM production, thats why we should invite them to setup a line for Tejas in India in parallel with HAL to scale up numbers. they can provide the managers and production line tech as done for the Gripen, but we build Tejas off that line. we can call it GriTej if the MSM wants.


I prefer the name TejPen

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 03 Jun 2015 09:55

shiv wrote:While I respect Barbora as a fighter jock - if he made this comment it sounds utterly dumb - like an ignoramus who thinks that some phoren nation will simply look at the "plans" and make Tejas fastly fastly cheaply cheaply. This indicates complete and utter ignorance of manufacturing. On the other hand some news media madarchod may be misquoting him - with every man and his uncle trying to make some money out of Indian defence.

Cadets from NDA or IAF induction level need to be taught about the strategic necessity and difficulties in design and manufacture in India. I think IAF pilots are the best in the world - but they don't seem to have any knowledge of manufacture.


+1.

Sometimes I wonder how he shoots off such remarks!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 03 Jun 2015 09:57

Vivek K wrote:GD you can't be serious! HAL has quite a bit of experience with manufacture as well. This discussion is pointless.


The problem appears to be that HAL has experience in manufacturing, but not in setting up an entire assembly line on their own. Most of their products have been licence built, with the OEM assisting them or telling them how to put together the assembly line the way it was done for the original product in the parent country.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 03 Jun 2015 10:01

Kartik wrote:
Vivek K wrote:GD you can't be serious! HAL has quite a bit of experience with manufacture as well. This discussion is pointless.


The problem appears to be that HAL has experience in manufacturing, but not in setting up an entire assembly line on their own. Most of their products have been licence built, with the OEM assisting them or telling them how to put together the assembly line the way it was done for the original product in the parent country.

Kartik I think one of the issues is that India tried to copy the Soviet model while allowing people to emulate the Western model.

In the Soviet model everything from pins to planes were made by the state. When the MiG 21 needed a front wheel it was made by the state tractor firm, not by MRF or Mahindra.

In the Western model - pins, nuts, bolts etc were made by private suppliers who supplied those thins.

HAL either had to make every Soviet/Brit designed pin and clip and set up a new manufacturing line for the same - or else import the part. There were no pvt firms making high tech parts - eg titanium pins or high strength alloy things or specialized synthetic rubber and oils.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 03 Jun 2015 10:50

But Shiv sir, that situation has changed somewhat with the Tejas AFAIK..there are a lot more private firms, both small and medium who are involved in supplying parts for it..but still scalability seems to be a big issue for HAL and its suppliers. Gone are the days when we were offering reasons like the size of the order that the IAF had placed as the primary reason for just building 8 per year..now the Govt. and the IAF are both looking for increased production rates, and HAL has made sound bytes in this regard, but at least from open sources, we don't know if there is any real movement on that front.

And even for the existing line, adherence to timelines seems to be non-existent..by June they were supposed to supply the IAF with 3 Series Production Tejas Mk1s, but so far all we know is that SP2 had flown..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 03 Jun 2015 10:56

The problem is not scalability, theproblem is the uncertain order book from the IAF. If the IAF commits to a 100+ Mk1 and demands that the HAL diliver by 2020. You can rest assured that it will bedone. As the HAL clhairman is on the record stating that he will need to spend nearly 1600 Crs in order to increase production to 16 aircrafts PA. But in the absence of clearly defined orders, it will be hard for him to justify making this investment, to make only 40 aircrafts.

You cannot have a tiny order book and expect the maker to set up the plant to make a huge number. Capicity will follow, the order book.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2015 11:13

yes assembly line building expertise (production machinery) and suppliers are lacking in india. most of such machinery even for civilian industry is imported. the OECD nations are strong in that. Soko has used its expertise in that to develop a soothing loading system for the K5 SP gun instead of the german 'arm cutter' pzh2000 charge loading system.

>> There were no pvt firms making high tech parts - eg titanium pins or high strength alloy things or specialized synthetic rubber and oils.
that is no longer true. maini aerospace, wipro and few more are building such items for the global aerospace ecosystem. give them the money, they will find the people and technology from wherever needed to build it.

but building a ecosystem needs upfront high investment with little immediate return.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2015 11:21

Singha wrote:sweden has far more exp in OEM production, thats why we should invite them to setup a line for Tejas in India in parallel with HAL to scale up numbers. they can provide the managers and production line tech as done for the Gripen, but we build Tejas off that line. we can call it GriTej if the MSM wants.


And they can sabotage the program, blame it all on HAL, make sure its delayed enough that we end up importing anyhow, who would invite a competitor to set own stuff up?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2015 11:22

Singha wrote:yes assembly line building expertise (production machinery) and suppliers are lacking in india. most of such machinery even for civilian industry is imported. the OECD nations are strong in that. Soko has used its expertise in that to develop a soothing loading system for the K5 SP gun instead of the german 'arm cutter' pzh2000 charge loading system.


Not such a big deal. Even Dassault uses ABB robotics, Sukhoi uses German CNC machines en masse.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2015 11:30

I wuz only joking wrt to the saab.

but denial of production machinery to the aerospace tolerances needed could still be a pressure point...some link could be found to dual use nukular weapons machining

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 03 Jun 2015 11:34

Is it beyond the capabilities of the Domestic Industry to design the machinery and have it dilivered to the Indian Aerospace sector.

I mean how hard would it be, to design and build such machines.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Pratyush » 03 Jun 2015 11:36

Singha wrote:I wuz only joking wrt to the saab.

but denial of production machinery to the aerospace tolerances needed could still be a pressure point...some link could be found to dual use nukular weapons machining



Post the 123 agreement, I don't expect that any of the western nations will be that stupid to sabotage Indian aerospace industry.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2015 12:35

I agree the chances of sanctions are remote.
take a typical machine tools co like chiron of germany.
how many pure play domestic cos can develop their portfolio to match chiron?
http://www.chiron.de/us/home/machining- ... eries.html

even the trailing edge of the western cabal - italy, sweden, spain and even some of the former warsaw pact have such cos as the enabler for precision manufacturing cos.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/2573 ... worldwide/

cheen is making HUGE efforts to enter and carve out portions of this huge sector. you would see Zoomlion gantry cranes all over indian construction sites. thats a cheen co. there is also another dozer/digger co that competes with the likes of caterpillar, komatsu and volvo here. ..infact there are 20 cheen cos in that segment...who all likely made a start using foreign designs for domestic market.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2015 12:45

Singha wrote:I wuz only joking wrt to the saab.

but denial of production machinery to the aerospace tolerances needed could still be a pressure point...some link could be found to dual use nukular weapons machining


Over long term yes, we need a HMT style org but properly run, funded. In related news we shut down a few of those factories.
But in short term, given moolah, firms in Europe should provide us what we need.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 03 Jun 2015 15:37

Hawk crashed in West Bengal. Both pilots ejected safely.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2015 16:05


shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 04 Jun 2015 05:11

pandyan wrote:There were an article (need to locate it) about tolerance required for aircraft needs. Example cited was aircraft component needed 5micron tolerance from specification whereas leading auto-fuel component supplier was controlling the process at 25micron level. So, PSU units started making the parts with required tolerance. But then we also hear that parts from one aircraft does not fit another another aircraft. so, is quality and control not uniform across the board? If PSU is very good at process control, then they should uniformly demonstrate across the board and help industry in improving their process control.

auto component suppliers optimize their process for their target market, cost structure. If they are required to build high margin, low volume products with tighter controls, they would require adjustments to their manufacturing techniques and it is certainly doable. For them to invest the money and resources, there has to be certain guarantee on possible revenue stream. There were also reports about making SME companies to do the work during proof of concept stage and open up bidding for actual manufacturing. This lack of continuity and nurturing and hand holding was cited as an issue that was discouraging SMEs. This might be a limitation due to way in which PSU (bidding for everything....not much weightage on expertise other than cost) are required to operate.


The fighter jocks of the IAF need to understand that these details were sorted out in Western nations starting from the 1930s because they got into a desperate war where they were eliminating each other and had no one to import from. So with the military pilot at the apex doing the flying there was a massive chain of industry that were churning out woodwork, metalwork, fabric, leather, nuts, bolts, rivets, pistons, cylinders, piston rings, pumps, wheels, ball bearings (did you mention tolerances - what about ball bearings). Industry in India has to be given a chance to do that and the government need to give big, confirmed order to private industry and actually pay them after that. Private industrialists always rail at the coruption that runs deep when it comes to dealing with government.

In this connection I am reminded of two recent news reports:
1. Private contractor working for the government of Karnataka committed suicide because of continuous lack of payment from a profoundly corrupt BBMP
2. Uttarkhand government officials looted crores worth of relief funds meant for flood and landslide victims.

So engaging private players is one thing - but the government consists of at least 50% of people who are looters. Unfortunately honesty can't be bought. When it comes, it comes free.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ramana » 04 Jun 2015 21:28

India and Russia move towards co-production of military equipment

Article is about MEA Swaraj talking about Indo-Russian ties and has this info:


Negotiations are on to explore the possibility of jointly building multi-role fighter jets, (possibly the Su 35 MKI) needed by the Indian Air Force (IAF), in India. India recently bought 36 Rafale fighter aircraft from France, out of an original list of 126.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 05 Jun 2015 22:50

HAL-BEL sign MoU for sharing expertise in avionics


Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) has signed a MoU here to share their expertise in design, development, engineering and manufacturing to develop and produce advanced airborne communication equipment to meet the requirement of the defence services



In 2015?

:shock:

I wonder if they see a threat from outside the country.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby brar_w » 06 Jun 2015 08:14

India Requests ISTAR Aircraft From US

NEW DELHI — India has offered to buy two intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance (ISTAR) aircraft from Raytheon on a government-to-government basis.

The request was made to visiting US Defense Secretary Ash Carter Wednesday, said a Defence Ministry source. Another project which India and the US are discussing, on India's request, is joint development of the GE-414 jet engine for use by India's homemade Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the source added.

The Defence Ministry's official release did not mention India's offer, but the MoD source said the proposal has been kept low key.

The Air Force has already been briefed by Raytheon about the ISTAR aircraft and has evinced interest in wanting to procure planes that will use an active electronically scanned array radar and be able to scan more than 30,000 kilometers in a minute and analyze that data in 10 to 15 minutes to identify the targets.

No official of Raytheon was available for comment.

On the engine project, the Defence Ministry's release said: "Building on the areas of agreement during President Obama's visit to India in January 2015, Raksha Mantri (Indian Defense Minister) and Secretary Carter agreed to expedite discussions to take forward cooperation on jet engines, aircraft carrier design and construction, and other areas. The two also agreed to pursue co-development and co-production projects that will offer tangible opportunities for American defense industries to build defense partnerships with the Indian industries including in manufacturing under 'Make in India'."

The two countries are also working toward sharing technology for aircraft carriers, which includes helping build a nuclear carrier and sharing the next-generation electromagnetic aircraft launch system technology, used on carriers, which will enable the carrier to fly a variety of aircraft ranging from small to medium-sized combat aircraft, the source added.

During Carter's visit, India and the US extended their 10-year defense framework agreement, first signed in 2005.

According to the official release, the new framework "builds upon the previous framework and successes to guide the bilateral defense and strategic partnership for the next ten years. The new framework agreement provides avenues for high level strategic discussions, continued exchanges between armed forces of both countries, and strengthening of defense capabilities."

India and the US also have finalized two project agreements for joint development of mobile electric hybrid power sources and next generation protective ensembles, the release added.


Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby eklavya » 07 Jun 2015 12:32

Apache-Chinook choppers deal to be signed soon

Apache-Chinook choppers deal to be signed soon

NEW DELHI: Government is likely to soon clear a contract worth over US $ 2.5 billion for 22 Apache attack helicopters and 15 Chinook heavy-lift choppers with US aviation giant Boeing.

Defence sources said the file relating to the offset conditions for the contract was cleared by the Defence Ministry last week and now the deal will come up for discussion in the Cabinet Committee on Security.

The extended validity period of the price quoted by Boeing is ending this month.

Offset policy was first introduced as part of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), 2005, under which a foreign company has to invest back a portion of the deal into India.

Usually 30 per cent of the value of a defence contract is earmarked under the offset clause in India.

Many in the defence sector had expected the deal to be signed during last week's visit of US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter.

"The Apache and Chinook deal was separate from the broader agenda of Carter's visit. It (deal) should be completed soon," the sources said.

Boeing, along with the US government, had extended the validity of the price quoted by them for another three months in April hoping to wrap up the deal soon.

Indian Defence Ministry had in March sought extension of the validity period on its expiry on March 31.

The US firm had in February this year warned of a price hike if India does not finalise the contract soon.

Boeing has extended the price validity for the deal at least thrice since cost negotiations concluded in 2013.

Incidentally, the present Defence Procurement Policy does not allow room for increase in price once a bid has been shortlisted. In the event of the original manufacturer seeking a higher price than the one agreed upon, the tender can be terminated and a fresh one issued, defence officials said.

The deal for the Apache is a "a hybrid one", with one contract to be signed with Boeing for the helicopter and the other with the US government for its weapons, radars and electronic warfare suites.

The US has been pushing for this contract as it will further bolster American presence in the burgeoning defence market of India.

American companies have over the last decade bagged defence contracts from India worth around USD 10 billion, including for aircraft like P-8I, C-130J 'Super Hercules' and C-17 Globemaster-III.


http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-p ... 633655.jpg

http://www.airinternational.com/central ... s/1211.jpg


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2015 14:58

its the raytheon astor thing the UK has and is planning to mothball soon after a extended period of use in MEA due to their budget constraints.

2 will hardly make any impression. instead they should sponsor LRDE to make a similar system onboard the EMB145.

however if they have belatedly realized this is a vital force multiplier , cancel the apache deal and go with more of this.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 07 Jun 2015 15:05

what is the IOC and FOC status of the LCH ? I have not see it fly in blr for last few months.

is the Rudra past the FOC and in production against orders ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby pragnya » 07 Jun 2015 16:39

Singha wrote:what is the IOC and FOC status of the LCH ? I have not see it fly in blr for last few months.


IOC planned for sept 15 (3 months ahead of the plan).

http://www.oneindia.com/india/rotorplus ... 59566.html

or by the end of the year - http://www.thehindu.com/business/Indust ... epage=true

is the Rudra past the FOC and in production against orders ?


IOC done in feb 2013. 2 were delivered at the IOC. 20 were to be delivered by end 2013. there may not be a 'formal' FOC as it is based on proven, certified Dhruv. the FOC may be informal as part of induction i guess, reading between the lines -

“We are going to build 54 Rudra helicopters for the army and air force. We will go straight from development into full-scale production,” says P Soundara Rajan, the head of HAL’s Helicopter Complex, which is increasingly driving innovation in that company


http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 275_1.html

not sure how many are delivered though.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 07 Jun 2015 17:49

Singha wrote:what is the IOC and FOC status of the LCH ? I have not see it fly in blr for last few months.

is the Rudra past the FOC and in production against orders ?


LCH and Rudra are flying almost daily. Last Monday (01st June) there was a mini airshow at HAL airport for some visiting dignitary and in the couple of days of flying practice before that and on Monday itself saw the entire livery of locally developed aircraft being flown.

Pretty good aeros from the LCA, some inverted flying over the runway followed by a low pass by the IJT , a low pass by Darin 3 upgrade Jaguars and a formation flight of 04 helicopters led which included 01 Rudra and two LCH's (most probably TD1 & TD3) which was followed by some low level maneuvers by the Rudra and LCH (TD 1).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 07 Jun 2015 18:55

deejay wrote:
Singha wrote:what is the IOC and FOC status of the LCH ? I have not see it fly in blr for last few months.

is the Rudra past the FOC and in production against orders ?


LCH and Rudra are flying almost daily. Last Monday (01st June) there was a mini airshow at HAL airport for some visiting dignitary and in the couple of days of flying practice before that and on Monday itself saw the entire livery of locally developed aircraft being flown.

Pretty good aeros from the LCA, some inverted flying over the runway followed by a low pass by the IJT , a low pass by Darin 3 upgrade Jaguars and a formation flight of 04 helicopters led which included 01 Rudra and two LCH's (most probably TD1 & TD3) which was followed by some low level maneuvers by the Rudra and LCH (TD 1).

Aapke mooh mein ghee shakkar. That explains the fighter like noises and helo noises I heard over my home uselessly because I can't see anything for the trees and surrounding buildings.

I have made a "best of LCA" video from airshows from 2007 and some of the performances are scintillating. Will upload soon

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 07 Jun 2015 19:13

^^^ Doc sa'ab my balconies do not have any tree obstructing the view. 8)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_24684 » 07 Jun 2015 21:11

Singha wrote:what is the IOC and FOC status of the LCH ? I have not see it fly in blr for last few months.

is the Rudra past the FOC and in production against orders ?



Gopal Sutar,
Chief of Media Communications,
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited,
Bengaluru

The Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is in an advanced stage of development and undergoing testing at HAL; there are three prototypes that are flying. Approximately 500 flights, of more than 350 flight hours, have been completed on these prototypes towards certification of the platform. The basic platform is proven. The Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) is being targeted by the end of this year, with limited series production being planned in 2016-17 after this.


written reply to Hindu Hindu

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kartik » 18 Jun 2015 08:48

HAL selects Honeywell engine for HTT-40 trainer


Source:

19 hours ago


Hindustan Aeronautics' (HAL) HTT-40 trainer prototype will be powered by the Honeywell TPE331-12B turboprop engine, it has been announced in Paris.

The Indian defence ministry intends to by 68 of the locally-developed trainer to satisfy a portion of its 180-aircraft requirement to replace the outdated HAL HPT-32 Deepak. The remainder of the need will be satisfied with the Swiss Pilatus PC-7 Mk II.
..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vipins » 21 Jun 2015 10:08

Saw multiple Kiran trainers flying in formation over HiTech city in Hyd yesterday!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby deejay » 21 Jun 2015 13:26

vipins wrote:Saw multiple Kiran trainers flying in formation over HiTech city in Hyd yesterday!!


POP at AFA Dundigal - There was a Sarang demonstration too.

vipins
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vipins » 21 Jun 2015 22:48

Got one pic ,just in time.
Image

Philip
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 23 Jun 2015 02:13

Why are we proliferating platforms for specialist tasks,where numbers of aircraft are fewer? We already have the EMBs for the AEW role and ideally should've developed our own ISTAR bird based upon the same platform.


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