Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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srin
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srin » 05 Jul 2015 08:23

tsarkar wrote:So how many of the BR members expounding services buy only indigenous stuff based on nationalistic fervor themselves buy a truly indigenous Indian Tata or Mahindra car?

If they own a Japanese, Korean or German car, then how do they reconcile what they preach with what they practice?


Personally, it has nothing to do with ideology and as such I don't see an analogous situation with a car.
The reason to have indigenous stuff is to ensure sanctions etc don't affect the ability to fight, and our national policy is based on self-interest. It is frequently seen that if you import arms, you also import the foreign policy of the supplier. And lastly, you can also export them to countries in furtherence of this national interest (like we're exporting OPVs or ALHs).

None of the above apply to cars and hence, there is no dichotomy (atleast to me) in choosing a Japanese made car while rooting for Indian produced arms.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Eric Leiderman » 05 Jul 2015 09:53

Taskars analogy is not that far off, it would depend on the country your in

eg Japan they mainly trust japanese goods, the country has been trying to get the local populance to buy exported goods, it being an uphill task.

When the Japanese bikes were decimating all other country brands, Harley fans set up a culture where by if you did not buy american you were looked down apon.

Also the services are part of our general populance and if that culture is not fostered on you at a younger age, it gets lost in the translation.

So yes I agree with Taskar, and at the expense of sounding repetitive, our services are basically a sub culture of our main culture, so you cannot expect them to be radically different.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Jul 2015 10:27

Why does the IAF recruitment ad have an F-18?
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2015 11:53

Srin

The most frequent user complaints about some indigenous products is not meeting performance specs, lack of quality, reliability (INSAS stoppages), ergonomics, timeliness, spares. So while something may work, it might not work reliably all the time.

The same user feedback apply to Tata & Mahindra cars -

1. Build quality not refined as Japanese, Korean or German cars
2. Noise, vibration & harshness (NVH) levels higher than Japanese, Korean or German cars
3. Lower MTBF than Japanese, Korean or German cars
4. More frequent maintenance than Japanese, Korean or German cars
5. Service engineer not well trained, or shows apathy to customer complaints
6. Design not as refined as than Japanese, Korean or German cars
7. Older technology used like ladder chassis instead of monocoque chassis

BR Members expect services to live & fight with these deficiencies, but themselves want the best value available in the market.

BR Members want services to ignore deficiencies for the sake of indigenization, they themselves wont promote indigenization in all areas of national growth.

@Sreeman - I bought an Indica in 1999 because it was Indian and personally drove it until 2011. Including from Bombay to Madras, Bombay to Agra, with family. I did forget to mention the disdain of my fellow Indian civilian colleagues, neighbours and extended family members for driving an Indica. Thankfully blessed with a family who understood why.

@NRao - out of production

@Shiv -
The Japanese, Korean or German BMW are screwdrivered like T-90 or T-72, not indigenously designed or developed like Arjun.

Can we call the T-90 or T-72 or Toyota or BMW Indian?

Does the profit from the rupee spent on these cars stay in India or go to Japan or Germany like money spent on Dassault goes to France?
Last edited by tsarkar on 05 Jul 2015 12:17, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2015 12:09

Regarding F-18,

The L1 ad agency hired the L1 graphic designed who has no interest or clue in military matters and cut & paste from the Internet whatever he fancies.

The IAF officer overseeing this initiative is probably "passed over" and does not give a shit.

Or the L1 agency wanted more money to print correct posters for which IAF needs fresh approval.

Happens all the time.

FWIW, Pakistan Navy Aman Exercises posters featured INS Delhi for the same reason.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_23694 » 05 Jul 2015 13:16

Can we call the T-90 or T-72 or Toyota or BMW Indian?


Since so much ex. of automobiles, where would the below ex. fit .
Renault Kwid [performance figures not known yet but looks good ,quality seems fine and seems custom made to Indian requirement]
Developed by a French company for Indian market, Designed by a team with lots of Indians in India though headed by Gerard Detourbet who brings with him years of design experience. Working along with Indian vendors the Car starts with 98% localization and aims to compete with Alto & Eon. Even Suzuki and Hyundai are going big in design and development in India.Most of there sourcing are local.
So it seems not about Indian & foreign but more to do with overall understanding of the right process to develop quality vehicles

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 05 Jul 2015 15:10

Speaking about automobile example, what would happen if no Indians bought the Mahindras or Tatas and instead only bought foreign cars from Japan, Korea, Germany only? Unlike the automobiles, defense products like Arjun MBT has only one customer, the IA. If your sole customer is not buying what happens to indigenous technology and capability? Besides T-72/90s are not exactly quality products to begin with ;)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 05 Jul 2015 15:17

The real issue here is what is the "bang for the buck"? Consider naval warfare today.The latest RMA weapon systems are the rail gun and lasers. They are literally creating "waves" in naval circles. Platforms with advanced supersonic missiles like BMos/Klub are giving major navies nightmares.Similarly,no matter what aircraft one uses,it is the weaponry carried that matters. What is the use of a stealth fighter if all it carries are dumb bombs and SRAAMs? A $35M 4th-gen fighter like the upgraded MIG-29s,carrying the future BMos_M with a 300+KM missile range and BVRs would be far more useful than a $100M+ 5th-gen one whose internal weapons bay cannot accommodate the same!

Consider Pak,The PAF's backbone in the future is going to be the modest JF-17,built in large numbers,capable of dropping a variety of ordnance including PGMs.All at low cost. Our LCA is yet to be inducted into combat service,will take at least 2 years from now,but we are so ambitious,wanting to start right away with the AMCA project,when we cannot even perfect the IJT let alone build a BTT (with an imported engine)! Various firang entities from BAe to SAAB are being roped in to cure our ailments in the various programmes,like the galaxy of mendicants in the film,"The madness of King George",smelling and examining each morning his p*ss and sh*t and beaming at the results!

Sadly the most obvious interim solution ,keeping both numbers and capability happy,of buying "more of the same",more MIG-29s to UG/29K std. or even with TVC and some 35 features,at an acquisition cost of around just $35M a pop has been ignored.There is little cost-effective thought in the IAF. The LCA delay seems endemic,like a failed monsoon! One does not sense the urgency of action expected to bring to fruition this programme that will give Indian aerospace industry its signal achievement. There is some talk of armed Hawks,a good idea,but even here these are of limited capability,some capability for close support duties but almost useless in deep penetration ops. over enemy territory.

The wisest decision made during the last two decades (apart from the MKI upgrade of the SU-30) was the decision to upgrade the MIG-21s into the Bisons,done by the IAF when it realised long ago that the LCA and its timeframe was too ambitious,the tech and industry base didn't exist in India for the advanced features wanted,and that the DPSUs/HAL would not be able to deliver the goods.In the first Indo-US exercises,the Bison proved its worth,surprising the Yanquis enormously. Unfortunately,we've turned the LCA from being a MIG-21 replacement with the industry std. 15% better performance,into a mini M-2000,stuiffing in as much eqpt.as we can into its small frame and expecting full-blown multi-role capability,almost as much as an MMRCA. But like the proverbial "hole in the bucket" song,the "engine is underpowered,dear ADA,dear ADA...",something we've forgotten since the heady days of the HF-24,when we were the leaders in Asia for designing/building aircraft.So we wait and hope,like "Waiting for Godot" for the coming "messiah" the LCA MK-2 and after that the AMCA! A new set of dates for the "Messiah's" arrival has been formulated,but as the Good Book says,only the Lord and Master of time knows when he will arrive!

PS:At least in the auto industry have we completed more modest wares from Tatas and Mahindras.perhaps these worthies should also take over aircraft design,dev. and production from the DPSUs/HAL/ADA. These pvt. cos. have to perform or perish.If their goods are sub-std.,then no one will buy them.The fundamental point to be remembered is that these autos (Safaris,Cheetahs,Boleros,Indicas,Nanos,etc.) are rolling off the production lines, unlike the BTT,IJT,LCA,whatever!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 05 Jul 2015 16:02

The car analogy is fairly irrelevant because spares for cars won't get cut off day 2 in the conflict.

BRF wants Indian arms not because they are Indian but because of the strategic benefits that accrue and the issues that arise when the supply chain is entirely abroad as versus a limited amount, which means everything from immediate support to long term upgrades are affected. In Indian programs we can even attempt to indigenize over the long term even if the immediate product is by DPP only 30% local. In foreign items we can't even do that thanks to licensing restrictions. The Milan-2s we imported remained some 10-20% imported since the agreement specified that.

The services don't know what they want and how to achieve it. Their most voluble sections lack the exposure necessary to even understand the issues or introspect. We have had some Air Marshals talk about how China is reverse engineering and India is not. In the same breath at a FICCI conference the gents proclaimed, that IAF would never accept nothing but the very best! Clearly, what China did and what PLAAF compromised with, were minor details.

Then there is the infinite fund syndrome. India is a developing nation with huge immediate needs. Our Jarnails while correlating GDP to expenditure forget the details and at the same time, talk about adding more numbers to our services which are anyways struggling with capex to RE on personnel.

Never mind the economic impact of draining huge amounts of hard earned forex by a few imports, even while national endeavours in health, technology etc all suffer because overpriced imports are the panacea now and forever. And after all this, we are told since the platforms were so expensive, waging a conflict with them for over a few weeks is tough.

High farce of the highest order.

As the Arjun case shows, claims that Indian weapons are always somehow behind the foreign imports are also not true. There is clearly a "buy the best toys" issue here which acts against a dispassionate evaluation of local programs. India has committed to purchase over 1600 T-90s which don't work. Quality, MTBF indeed.

If one were to make a list of the number of crooked deals Indian services have had to put up with, and the number of fancy gizmos they imported and which are lying useless, it would shock most people & lead to a lot of media investigation.

Most of us folk self censor these details to avoid washing dirty linen in public but the highway robbery that has occurred and the rubbish that we have purchased that neither meets quality, MTBF, lack of spares or myriad other criterion.

And its created a nice little cosy corrupt ecosystem. Many people are feeding, snouts in the trough, of selling overpriced junk and spares to the IN,IA,IAF.

Funnily enough, no audit has gone into that, of the actual details of the prices paid, the vendors these items are sourced from & how the same spare is available only when some ex bigwig fronts a company offering spares services from Soviet Union or whatever. All these issues are known at time of trials, yet the item is procured.

It has become an issue of huge proportions and all this "we spend too less on defence" is absolute rubbish. Its not that we spend less on defence, its that the termites within and without are eating away and have been doing so for a long time, selling us crap and then the public thinks just because its imported its all good.

If one were to do a dispassionate analysis of the amount of crooked stuff foreign vendors have pulled and the MOD always acquiesces (with relevant service going, but but we will lose the war if you don't), it would make a book by itself.

Noones case that we don't need to reform our own way of doing things. But we know exactly where we lack within. What we import, that huge mess has been hidden from the public eye for ages.

Speak to honest services procurement officials (and there are so many, frustrated with the way our system is) and they will acknowledge these issues. Unfortunately the rank and file only knows they don't have x and the usual story spun is babus didn't sign off, some PSU delayed. Real story is usually a bewildering mix of not just red tape but vested interests gaming our system, everything from rifles to aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 05 Jul 2015 16:34

^^^
+1

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby eklavya » 05 Jul 2015 17:20

Karan M wrote:The services don't know what they want and how to achieve it. Their most voluble sections lack the exposure necessary to even understand the issues or introspect.


It's time you introspected instead of constantly ranting and maligning India's armed forces. Have you ever done a day's work in any capacity in a DPSU or the armed forces? What are your qualifications to judge the armed forces?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 05 Jul 2015 17:28

eklavya wrote:
Karan M wrote:The services don't know what they want and how to achieve it. Their most voluble sections lack the exposure necessary to even understand the issues or introspect.


It's time you introspected instead of constantly ranting and maligning India's armed forces. Have you ever done a day's work in any capacity in a DPSU or the armed forces?


LOL, only an imbecile would consider what I wrote as a rant or maligning India's armed forces. Or somebody who has benefited personally from the corrupt ecosystem that exists.

Anyone with half a brain cell would realize things are already so bad that countless folk (services and otherwise_ are upset with the status quo and voice their dissatisfaction privately and even openly, irrespective of how fanboys like you might try to stifle the debate.

What are your qualifications to judge the armed forces?


The same as every Indian taxpayer and citizen of India and qualifications wise, far more than the like you will ever possess at any rate.
Last edited by Karan M on 05 Jul 2015 17:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2015 17:32


In August 2008, right about the time the Indian Air Force had decided to officially kickstart procedures to get the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) off the realm of theory, then Chief of Air Staff Fali Major happened to bump into DRDO chief M Natarajan and then HAL chairman Ashok Baweja at an industry suppliers function in Bangalore. The Chief was mildly irritated that both Baweja and Natarajan had provided media sound-bytes and interviews suggesting that the MCA would have "fifth generation technologies". He impressed upon both gentlemen, over tea, that if the MCA went the LCA way, it would be not just unacceptable to the air force, but an act of criminal disregard for the country's security. "Give the air force a bloody first-rate fourth generation aeroplane. That is the job before you," he said.]


Shiv Sir, this a 2008 conversation. The 4th Gen aircraft is here - Tejas. How many more 4th Gen aircraft do we make and how many 5th Gen aircraft will we import? I mean 274 imported Su 30 MKI, 144 FGFAs, 36 4++ Gen Rafales (at least). We must get to the point where we start walking with the latest and in some domains start setting the bench marks.

When I heard of the moon shot first - I thought - why? When I heard of the Mars Mission - I had the same sinking feeling. But our folks did it. We must back ourselves and move on to the more challenging domain.

If Tejas Mk 1 is not that first rate bloody 4th Gen aircraft then Tejas Mk 2 is. It is time we move to acquiring 5th Gen technologies


Both, CAS Major and the DRDO/HAL heads were behaving very predictably.

Any user (Major) wants a product that works and thus thinks sequentially.

While the heads of providers/vendors ALWAYS think in parallel - they have to. (It is the responsibility of the various teams below that have to deliver on both these fronts.)

So, there is nothing unusual in the behavior of any of these gents. In fact, I for one, am very glad that in 2008 the heads of such orgs were talking of the future - THAT is equally "the job before you".

Else India would be still trying to make paint to paint the LCA - or some silly things like that.

I wish India was further along, but nothing to be ashamed of.

Furthermore, *today*, IMHO, India is at that cusp/zone, where she can make it over the hump - OR slide backwards and give up. This is the time to invest very heavily - although the feeling of risk will be the highest. The rewards to overcome the risks will also be very high. Time to endure the pain and move forward - there will be PLENTY to ensure India gives up.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby eklavya » 05 Jul 2015 17:36

^^^^
Karan, If you really had any professional knowledge about aviation, you wouldn't have to resort to such language. You are good at trying to shut down anyone who questions you by resorting to personal attacks. Reality is you don't have the professional experience or professional knowledge to judge the armed forces.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2015 17:43

Karan M wrote:The car analogy is fairly irrelevant because spares for cars won't get cut off day 2 in the conflict.


The car analogy is very relevant because it lays open the mindset of the user. That is any user would want the optimum, if not the best, for his purpose.

But ironically, since you brought up the issue of spares, then historically, for indigenous products, spares has been an acute problem affecting a user's mindset because designers & producers do not help the user in setting up an adequate spares supply line.

https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/10/ ... er-hoogly/
The aircraft sat on te ground for a long time after this incident for the lack of a propeller.( Prompt resupply of spares had never been a strong point of HAL!).


Maruts too stayed grounded for long periods that affected a user's career progression because of lack of operational flight hours.

Spares for GE F-404 of Tejas or MTU engine of Arjun or Israeli sight, HMDS & Litening pod can be cut off day 2 in conflict.

The corruption is a digression from the point I'm making, viz, an user's mindset. But when a mind is set, very difficult to change it even it quality products like Arjun mature. And Army has itself invested in significant infrastructure for the T-series in EME Workshops that source or manufacture spares.

So, what car do you drive, Karan? What was your decision making criteria when buying that car?

srai wrote:Speaking about automobile example, what would happen if no Indians bought the Mahindras or Tatas and instead only bought foreign cars from Japan, Korea, Germany only? Unlike the automobiles, defense products like Arjun MBT has only one customer, the IA. If your sole customer is not buying what happens to indigenous technology and capability?

Thank you for making this point of how not just services, but common Indians are not supporting indigenous industry.

Indian designed & built cars have only one customer, the Indians.

If Indians are not buying Indian cars, what happens to indigenous technology and capability?

Are not services folks genetically similar to common Indians who buy screwdrivered Japanese, Korean or German cars instead of Indian? So what's wrong when IAF says screwdriver the Rafale.

So, what car do you drive, SRai? What was your decision making criteria when buying that car?
Last edited by tsarkar on 05 Jul 2015 17:52, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 05 Jul 2015 17:46

eklavya wrote:^^^^
Karan, If you really had any professional knowledge about aviation, you wouldn't have to resort to such language.


What language? I am just responding to your pompous screed in the vein it deserves.

You are good at trying to shut down anyone who questions you by resorting to personal attacks.


Actually you began with the shameless and brazen personal attacks by personalizing the debate ("you, you, you") and clearly, my points struck home.

Reality is you don't have the professional experience or professional knowledge to judge the armed forces.


LOL, compared to you eklavya most people on this board are far more professionally qualified, so don't continue to make a fool of yourself.

Besides, I have interacted with enough armed forces personnel and industry folks for them to admit openly the issues that exist, the widespread corruption in the system, and the myriad other issues besides.

I doubt you have the professional experience or professional knowledge to understand any of those issues if I were to detail them in any vein.

No wonder you resort to personal attacks when you can't address any of the points I raised.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby eklavya » 05 Jul 2015 17:55

^^^^
Karan, you called me an imbecile and said that I personally benefitted from a corrupt ecosystem. All because your ignorant ranting against the armed forces was called out for what it is.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 05 Jul 2015 17:56

Sarkar Sahab the question is of developing a domestic MIC. A domestic auto industry exists and is thriving. The India had been in continuous production and with Tata's purchasing JLR (akin to say HAL purchasing BAE) should benefit from the knowhow gained which will lead to better future products.

If the Maruts were grounded then that was because of the infancy of the MIC that was not allowed to mature.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 05 Jul 2015 18:05

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:The car analogy is fairly irrelevant because spares for cars won't get cut off day 2 in the conflict.


The car analogy is very relevant because it lays open the mindset of the user. That is any user would want the optimum, if not the best, for his purpose.


Its completely irrelevant because its comparing a standard COTS item to one that has significant ramifications when used in conflict, and also the cost impact of each of these items.

What you are saying is that the Indian Armed Forces behave like a typical indian middle class family buying cars & completely ignore the strategic ramifications of their import dependence. Which is irrelevant to the middle class family (but relevant to the GOI thanks to what it does to the Indian economy if these were pure imports and policy decisions would be taken) but completely a different issue when it comes to the armed forces and the levers foreign states get on India.

But ironically, since you brought up the issue of spares, then historically, for indigenous products, spares has been an acute problem affecting a user's mindset because designers & producers do not help the user in setting up an adequate spares supply line.

https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/10/ ... er-hoogly/
The aircraft sat on te ground for a long time after this incident for the lack of a propeller.( Prompt resupply of spares had never been a strong point of HAL!).


By those same standards, the IN's MiG-29 Ks, the IAFs MiG-29s, the IAFs Mirage 2000s, Su-30 MKIs have all sat on ground for huge periods of time for want of spares.

Clearly, "prompt resupply of spares" was never a strong point of MiG either. Otherwise why would the BRD have to make them?

I won't even belabour the point by putting up links. They are all over the forum.

Heres a relevant quote about the Su-30

A more crippling problem is shortage of spares. Forget the old MiG-21s and MiG-27s which are no longer made anywhere in the world, even the Sukhois often face spares crunch. So much so that three or four Su-30MKIs have been turned into 'Christmas Trees' from which the engineers pluck spares. “These [new] aircraft are being cannibalised to meet the requirement of spares for the other aircraft in the Su-30 squadrons,” said an official at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which builds the aircraft under Russian licence. “But I won't blame the IAF. They are facing problems in getting spares from Russia.”

Never mind the operational state of various Indian services "subsystems" and "platforms" purchased at extortionate costs from abroad and whose spares or tech support never arrived.

The only reason I have stayed off of from posting the sad state of affairs there is because of the negative attention it would drive towards the Armed Forces in the muck raking media. But when it comes to portraying a skewed version of how the real state of affairs is viz our imports, we amongst ourselves on this forum need to understand the reality.

Maruts too stayed grounded for long periods that affected a user's career progression because of lack of operational flight hours.


In the 1980s' I recall several instances wherein Jaguars were grounded, MiGs were grounded (especially the MiG-29s). In 2001 (that long after induction), the IA was still shopping around for spares to get many airframes in its MiG fleet serviceable.

In India's case, the Maruts were the first aircraft it made. Subsystems would mostly be imported.

What was MiGs excuse and the reason for the IAFs continued loyalty? Yes yes, cheap Russian era imports etc, Su breakdown. But issues continue today.

Su-30 serviceability was down to 50% and new built HAL Su-30s were being stripped for spares by the IAF. What was Sukhois excuse?

Our 7 AN/TPQ-37s are unserviceable per reports. Was HAL involved?

These same issues apply EVERYWHERE.

The Indian manufacturers are not any worse off than what we depend on from abroad & that's the sad truth. (Sad for all those who thought at least the imports would perform error free and with logistics a given - even I used to be amongst that camp!!).

Spares for GE F-404 of Tejas or MTU engine of Arjun or Israeli sight, HMDS & Litening pod can be cut off day 2 in conflict.


Missed the point. I clearly noted that spares for Indian made systems with lesser items imported, can be stocked and hence are better than systems which are fully imported.

In the case of the above, there are a handful of systems that are imported. They can be either indigenized (if we think its worth it) or we can stockpile the high volume spares. Typically mission avionics and electronics items (apart from high voltage/amp systems) tend to last a while.

Our Moog actuators for instance ran for ages. Point being 50% import dependence (and progressive indigenization) is eons better than 100% import dependence and limited TOT (which we continue to be dependent on for key items abroad).

We are indigenizing our Indian systems in many cases to the displeasure of our suppliers. Can go into line and verse there but its not really of interest to anyone apart from those who follow these issues with such detail.

In the case of the fancy Rafales pretty much everything is at the mercy of Dassault.

TOT doesn't give us any rights to indigenize beyond a point either.

India owns the LCA. If the political class shows the ability to commit funds & the user supports it, we can replace sanctionable items from those from other vendors. Nobody can deny us that right. With an imported weapon we lack the ability to even open up black boxes lest we void the warranty.

The corruption is a digression from the point I'm making, viz, an user's mindset.


Its hardly a digression and one which cuts to the heart of how the user's mindset is shaped and then molded into it what it is by selective leaks & constant disparagement of local efforts. The point that you raise is influenced by corruption.

The corrupt folks spread across various orgs/procurement arms hide the real results of trials (eg Arjun versus T-90), make sure the rank and file continues to think the local item is flawed, unserviceable & unsuitable while spreading the belief that the local item can never replace the imported equivalent.

Hence many in the user apart from the trials teams are completely unaware of the real issues and stick to what they are being told, that their interests are served by imports and its hence the "babus", the "worthless scientists", the "good for nothing politicians" who are conspiring to deny them their rightful items.

The perception war continues and the import wagon rolls on.

srai wrote:Are not services folks genetically similar to common Indians who buy screwdrivered Japanese, Korean or German cars instead of Indian? So what's wrong when IAF says screwdriver the Rafale.


What's wrong is that if sanctions bite, the Indian folks can make do with Marutis and even ambassadors. On the other hand, if something like a Project Qari leak occurs at time of conflict, India would have a bunch of white elephants called the Rafale which do nothing and for which we mortgaged the family silver.

Besides, two wrongs don't necessarily make a right. Whether it be (many) Indians mindlessly buying dumped Chinese goods because they are "cheap and available" or procurement snafus in defence, the same systemic problems occur at multiple levels.
Last edited by Karan M on 05 Jul 2015 18:31, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 05 Jul 2015 18:09

eklavya wrote:^^^^
Karan, you called me an imbecile and said that I personally benefitted from a corrupt ecosystem.


Anyone who describes pointed and honest remarks as
ignorant ranting against the armed forces
and personalizes the debate about an individual he knows nothing about
Reality is you don't have the professional experience or professional knowledge to judge the armed forces.
since he cant address the facts raised and hence needs to personalize the debate, clearly suffers from the issues you suffer from.

The irony of first engaging in ad hominems and then reacting like a scalded cat apart, clearly either you lack the discernment to understand serious critiques and respond to them with a modicum of intelligence, or you would prefer the current corrupt mess go on.

If you wish to be treated with the deference you think you deserve, then first demonstrate that you have a civil tongue in turn.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby eklavya » 05 Jul 2015 18:13

^^^^
Karan, please don't flatter yourself, your critique of the armed forces is not serious; it lacks serious professional knowledge of the issues. I made my point fully expecting your personal attack, so I'm not in the least bothered by it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 05 Jul 2015 18:24

eklavya wrote:^^^^
Karan, please don't flatter yourself, your critique of the armed forces is not serious; it lacks serious professional knowledge of the issues.


It has sufficient knowledge behind it backed up by more than enough evidence which is public domain, and most folks here can see through your desperate antics to stifle a debate on the issue. Won't work.

It also speaks volumes that you couldn't even attempt a serious rejoinder to any post in this vein. You clearly lack any knowledge, professional or otherwise to make any serious comment on the issues of discussion.

All you have to go on is to rant and engage in ad hominems & then react like a scalded cat when given a response in vein.

I made my point fully expecting your personal attack, so I'm not in the least bothered by it.


Glad to see you admit that you made a personal attack, hoping to divert the topic by eliciting similar responses.

Besides, if you weren't bothered, you wouldn't have your knickers in a bunch then, given that I exposed your debating method would you, with you making posts on it repeatedly but still unable to address any serious topic.

Pathetic.
Last edited by Karan M on 05 Jul 2015 18:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2015 18:33

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:The car analogy is fairly irrelevant because spares for cars won't get cut off day 2 in the conflict.


The car analogy is very relevant because it lays open the mindset of the user. That is any user would want the optimum, if not the best, for his purpose.


There could be some overlaps, but other than that it is very irrelevant. There is absolutely nothing strategic about a car that could impact India (or any other nation), so the "costs" associated with them belong to another category. While the MIC related are strategic - cannot do without (no matter what some think or fear).

Spares for GE F-404 of Tejas or MTU engine of Arjun or Israeli sight, HMDS & Litening pod can be cut off day 2 in conflict.


There is a HUGE diff between "can be cut off" and "will be cut off". I doubt that they will be, especially in another 5-10 years. About 10 years ago this was specifically brought up with the US. And, even if the US or other nations do act on it, India will have options to retaliate and it will not be pretty. Bottom line, this is not 1990s or even 2000s.

The corruption is a digression from the point I'm making, viz, an user's mindset. But when a mind is set, very difficult to change it even it quality products like Arjun mature. And Army has itself invested in significant infrastructure for the T-series in EME Workshops that source or manufacture spares.

So, what car do you drive, Karan? What was your decision making criteria when buying that car?

srai wrote:Speaking about automobile example, what would happen if no Indians bought the Mahindras or Tatas and instead only bought foreign cars from Japan, Korea, Germany only? Unlike the automobiles, defense products like Arjun MBT has only one customer, the IA. If your sole customer is not buying what happens to indigenous technology and capability?

Thank you for making this point of how not just services, but common Indians are not supporting indigenous industry.


Apples and oranges.

But, multiple answers: 1) While the Indian people are part of a "global economy", it would be a silly travesty for the Indian Services to consider themselves part of anything global (the GoI may on their behalf, but not themselves). 2) It would be in the (long term?) interest of the Indian Services to provide full and unconditional support for the Indian MIC, this will also help the other industries (and therefore the people of India who will have comparable products to select from) as the MICs mature. 3) Buy Mercedes/BMW/Audi. After all Land Rover and Jag are Indian.

Anyways, kidding aside, India needs to make a decision on what India wants the Indian MIC to be in another X years. For such a large standing force it would be a travesty if they were to keep looking outside. For their own sake.

Indian designed & built cars have only one customer, the Indians.

If Indians are not buying Indian cars, what happens to indigenous technology and capability?

Are not services folks genetically similar to common Indians who buy screwdrivered Japanese, Korean or German cars instead of Indian? So what's wrong when IAF says screwdriver the Rafale.


A) It is typically the other way around, it is the MICs that spur commercial quality
B) Bad comparison based on genetics. It is common sense for the Armed Forces to support anything local and work with them to make it better. Granted that other arms of the Gov need to pull in the same direction.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Jul 2015 19:29

tsarkar wrote:Regarding F-18,

The L1 ad agency hired the L1 graphic designed who has no interest or clue in military matters and cut & paste from the Internet whatever he fancies.

The IAF officer overseeing this initiative is probably "passed over" and does not give a shit.

Or the L1 agency wanted more money to print correct posters for which IAF needs fresh approval.

Happens all the time.

FWIW, Pakistan Navy Aman Exercises posters featured INS Delhi for the same reason.

I do understand that this is a likely sequence of events. It is still shameful shoddiness. It should not have happened.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2015 19:31

FYI:

Great developments on the Tejas front; duplicate them for FMBT

Leadership has often been the difference between a successful and failed indigenous armament or weapons development project to which national prestige is committed. After the departure of Dr Kurt Tank from the HF-24 supersonic fighter project and the sidelining of Dr Raj Mahindra when the Mk-II of this aircraft was killed by IAF in order to procure the Anglo-French Jaguar low level strike aircraft, which mission the Marut Mk-II would have done far better. It initiated the process of IAF going over lock and stock and barrel to importing combat aircraft to the detriment of the security of the country and the national interest, a direction a seemingly unconcerned Indian govt actively encouraged — with defence minister Jagjivan Ram in the post-Emergency Janata govt allegedly pocketing rich commissions as the Maneka Gandhi edited magazine’Surya’ then claimed.

For the first time now Tejas will have two tested and proven persons at the wheel, with the Indian govt finally doing the right thing for a change with respect to the LCA. It has appointed Commodore CD Balaji, fresh from his success spearheading the development of the naval variant of Tejas as chief of the Aeronautical Development Agency, Bangalore. It was Balaji who ensured, for instance, that the navalised Tejas is a far more advanced aircraft than its air force sibling. Levcons (leading edge vortex controllers) have been configured into its airframe, making it a far more maneuverable warplane able, for instance, to pull high angles of attack at low speeds. Balaji’s hands-on control, commitment, and ability to eliminate/remove systemic and procedural obstacles are by now the stuff of legend. Senior US Navy officers whom I met in Washington some years back, who were part of the consultancy team Pentagon approved to liaise with the Balaji project, were full of praise for the streamlined manner in which everything worked, something they confessed they did did not expect. The USN consultants were hired to advice on such things as the strengthening of the aircraft’s fuselage, the exact placement of the arrester hook, the choice of an appropriate jet engine with the needed power-rating, etc.

In parallel with Balaji taking over ADA, Commodore Mavlankar has assumed command of the National Flight Test Centre, also in Bangalore, replacing Air Commodore Muthanna, who was in place since 2011. NFTC with its team of test pilots is tasked with testing aircraft for their air worthiness and ability to do combat maneuvers they are designed for. Mavlankar, an MS in aerospace engineering from IISc, like Balaji at ADA, is the right fit — the proverbial round peg in a round hole (unlike the history of GOI usually appointing the wrong persons to lead critically significant high-technology projects and then wondering why they veer off into failure) So, the designer agency and testing unit will be in sync and Tejas can now expect to begin rolling fast to cross certification hurdles.

The important thing to note is that both Balaji and Mavlankar are senior naval officers, and typify the navy’s quite commendable levels of commitment and eagerness to validate and operate indigenous military hardware, in this case, combat aircraft. It indicates defmin Manohar Parrikar’s recognition about the importance of getting the Tejas inducted into operational squadrons in the navy and air force fast. It is perhaps the first tremendously right and potent set of appointments he has made. It is now for him to ensure Messrs Balaji and Mavlanker are not tripped by the usual villains lurking in the corners — mostly in IAF and not least in his own ministry of defence and its department of defence production. He needs in particular roughly to drag IAF by the ear, if necessary, so to say, to appreciating and prioritising the Tejas in their scheme of things — rather than have this service clamour ceaselessly for Rafale and similar foreign aircraft.

This should also signal to the army that it is wrong to so casually torpedo the Future Main Battle Tank design, as follow-on, to the Arjuna MBT that beat the Russian T-90 hollow in field trials in all respects. And Parrikar should squelch at the earliest any move by army to tilt towards the Russian Armata tank displayed at the recent Red Square parade in Moscow to mark the 70th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany. He should rescind army’s RFPs, and tell the COAS and his cohort that the army will have the DRDO-designed FMBT perhaps with its production shared half-and-half between DPSUs and a private sector combine in a competitive set up, both to judge the effectiveness/efficiency of public and private sector manufacturing skills and processes, and to get the best product out to the army, because it definitely will not have an imported tank. If Parrikar can summon that kind of conviction, MOD/DDP will fall in line, pronto.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2015 19:39

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:The car analogy is very relevant because it lays open the mindset of the user. That is any user would want the optimum, if not the best, for his purpose.
Its completely irrelevant because its comparing a standard COTS item to one that has significant ramifications when used in conflict, and also the cost impact of each of these items. What you are saying is that the Indian Armed Forces behave like a typical indian middle class family buying cars & completely ignore the strategic ramifications of their import dependence. Which is irrelevant to the middle class family but completely a different issue when it comes to the armed forces and the levers foreign states get on India.


I make out two relevant points in your post. Cost & Import Dependence.

Cost of indigenous cars is less than that of screwdrivered cars. Yet buyers pay a premium because of better Build Quality, lower NVH levels, high MTBF, less maintenance, well trained service engineer not showing apathy to customer complaints, refined design and newer technology. It is for these similar reasons that IAF wants to pay the premium for Rafale.

Import dependence - does not Arjun have imported engines & optics or Tejas have imported engine, Radar, EO, HMDS and as import dependent as others?

Karan M wrote:Clearly, "prompt resupply of spares" was never a strong point of MiG either. Otherwise why would the BRD have to make them?
That's a good point. For MiG-29K, IN asked for and ROE set up a proper spares company. Those who live in that part of India can see the company next to the highway.
Karan M wrote:What was MiGs excuse and the reason for the IAFs continued loyalty?
MiG-35 was rejected for MMRCA.

Karan M wrote:Su-30 serviceability was down to 50% and new built HAL Su-30s were being stripped for spares by the IAF. What was Sukhois excuse?
Yes, Sukhoi has lower MTBF, but India sources only the CKD kits from Russia. There was no spares contract, and HAL was supposed to indigenize them. India paid extra money to expedite production. Blame lies both sides, Russians not doing ToT and HAL not aggressively following up.

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Spares for GE F-404 of Tejas or MTU engine of Arjun or Israeli sight, HMDS & Litening pod can be cut off day 2 in conflict.
I clearly noted that spares for Indian made systems with lesser items imported, can be stocked and hence are better than systems which are fully imported. In the case of the above, there are a handful iof systems that are imported. They can be either indigenized (if we think its worth it) or we can stockpile the high volume spares.
Which is why IAF has stockpiled Mirage 2000 spares or IA has stockpiled T-72/90 spares

Karan M wrote:TOT doesn't give us any rights to indigenize beyond a point either. India owns the LCA. If the political class shows the ability to commit funds & the user supports it, we can replace sanctionable items from those from other vendors. Nobody can deny us that right. With an imported weapon we lack the ability to even open up black boxes lest we void the warranty.
So what does India do if US pulls the plug on GE F-404 or F-414? Wont sanctions bite the Tejas? Wont it need a major redesign to fit another engine?

Karan M wrote:These same issues apply EVERYWHERE.
Now this is a good point made by you, so I am bolding it.

Typically, in the services, when spares are required for an imported system, its a question of paying money to vendor or doing some jugaad in a BRD if technical documentation is available.

When spares are required from HAL or OFB, the user is faced with apathy. Money cant solve the apathy. Typically documentation is also unavailable for indigenous systems, so doing jugaad at BRD is also difficult. This shapes the user experience. In war, it affects performance and in peace, it affects careers because of lack of flight hours. And this apathy deters the user from touching a HAL or OFB product again.

Which is why IAF was insisting on documentation before inducting Tejas in squadron service.

Karan M wrote:Besides, two wrongs don't necessarily make a right.


Karan, this discussion started on the mindset of the user. I am not making a case for imports.

The reason I used the car ownership example is to highlight that lofty ideals like indigenization come crashing down when it comes down to the reality of performing the operational task. The user has to use his judgment & experience in deciding the tools required for the job, to ensure he performs the job.

When the user experience is bad, then the battle is lost for the user's mind.

Rather then putting a car together, the Japanese, Korean and German companies focus on User Experience, that domestic car companies don't do. Only lately they've realized it. But too late to impact public perception or sales.

Similarly, ADA or HAL or OFB never focused on User Experience, which is why users are not very confident about them.

In July 1972, the Brits bought the Harrier onboard INS Vikrant. The single aircraft flew 22 sorties in two days from the carrier in monsoons, that was a world record then.

http://on-target-aviation.com/harrier.html
In 1972 a two-seater went aboard the Indian Naval Ship Vikrant and flew 22 sorties in two days in the tropical monsoon season.

The pilots & engineers got a chance to see the prototype in action in the monsoons. That won the customer's mind and purchases were made in the 80s & 90s.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/book/naval-air-arm
In view of the design limitations of VIKRANT's catapult, a study had been carried out whether the British GNAT fighter aircraft, which was being indigenously produced by HAL for the Air Force, could be `navalised'. It was not found cost effective...In July 1972, British Aerospace, sent their demonstrator G-VTOL Harrier to India for landing trials on board the VIKRANT. The trials showed that VIKRANT would be able to operate VTOL type aircraft.


What ADA or CVRDE needs to do is to take Tejas to all major airbases across India and showcase its capabilities to all pilots and engineers. Take Arjun to all Armoured Regiments deployed in India and showcase capabilities. Once pilots, squadron commanders, base commanders are convinced, they'll influence opinion at HQ. Or when they become senior, they can take decisions themselves.

Let ADA & HAL chiefs & their team visit airbases across India and interact with pilots and engineers. That way, they'll build empathy with their users.
Last edited by tsarkar on 05 Jul 2015 23:12, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 05 Jul 2015 19:59

Karan, can you fix the quote you attributed to me? It was tsarkar who said that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2015 22:30

NRao,

A nation's responsibilities, are also responsibilities of its citizens.

Before MIC comes the overall national IC. MIC is a subset of the overall national IC.

So if citizens want to import or screwdriver, how will national IC develop?

It would be hypocritical if one believes that only Forces should have the responsibility of develop MIC and go through the associated pain, but citizens themselves use imported or screwdrivered products as per their convenience.

Wipro & HCL used to make laptops that they shut down because of lack of sales. How many BR members use Wipro & HCL laptops? And what are their answers for using foreign laptops instead of Wipro or HCL laptops? Your & my & other BR member's reasons for using a foreign laptop are the same of IAF for Rafale.

Forces come from the normal populace, they are not parachuted from the sky.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 05 Jul 2015 22:48

Vivek K wrote:Sarkar Sahab the question is of developing a domestic MIC.

Vivek K, I completely support the development of a domestic MIC. However, just flying a prototype plane is not enough. It needs to be properly productionized & supported. The user needs to be assured every step of the way. I also agree it should be a joint process between developer + producer + user + support infrastructure.

However, historically, the designer considered his job done when the prototype flew, instead of continuously improving it. The manufacturer considered his job done when the plane was delivered. Training & maintenance was the user's headache.

How would car users rate their experience of a car servicing at a company station service center vis-à-vis Hindustan Motor's Ambassador servicing or taking it to a neighborhood garage?

BR members themselves want the convenience of the former, while expecting services to live with the latter in the name of promoting indigenous MIC.

What is HAL's support infrastructure for Tejas? Does HAL have any Service Level Agreements? Does it commit "X" flight hours per month or year?

Two BSF Dhruv crashes have been attributed by DGCA to improper pilot training. Same for Ecuador crashes.

Does HAL recommend a training curriculum for Dhruv? Does HAL provide a simulator for Dhruv? It has a CAe built one in Bangalore, but does it recommend users to get a simulator of their own?

Will Ecuador buy more Dhruv's? Unlikely.

Unless the developer + manufacturer take interest in these factors, how will user perception change?

When Volvo started selling buses in India, driver training was included in the purchase cost. That is how user experience is improved.

When IAF purchases Mirage, pilots & engineers are given proper training in France.

What is the ADA+HAL+NFTC training curriculum & plan for Tejas? Please note that squadron pilots have different experience and training than specially trained test pilots. Does the training plan cater for that?

These small things make a big difference.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2015 23:08

Wipro & HCL used to make laptops that they shut down because of lack of sales. How many BR members use Wipro & HCL laptops? And what are their answers for using foreign laptops instead of Wipro or HCL laptops? Your & my & other BR member's reasons for using a foreign laptop are the same of IAF for Rafale.


I have heard of middle-men, politics, bribes, etc, but this one is new to me. Consumer behavior.

Just because Indians prefer to import a Dell laptop (over an Indian manufactured laptop) the services can use that consumer behavior to import Rafale. ?????










I have this strange feeling that both Balaji and Mavalankar would like to have a say in this matter.

Rightfully. And.

Thankfully.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vaibhav.n » 05 Jul 2015 23:42

Since i am bored to death...

Tsarkar sir,

Automobiles are still far way off.....

How many guys on BRF exclusively do vacation's within desh and not capitulate under SHQ's thunderous looks for trips to France...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby eklavya » 06 Jul 2015 01:13

NRao wrote:I have heard of middle-men, politics, bribes, etc, but this one is new to me. Consumer behavior.

Just because Indians prefer to import a Dell laptop (over an Indian manufactured laptop) the services can use that consumer behavior to import Rafale. ?????


Laptop users are almost never in life and death situations. Rafale/Tejas drivers often are. Tends to focus the users mind.

NRao wrote:I have this strange feeling that both Balaji and Mavalankar would like to have a say in this matter.

Rightfully. And.

Thankfully.


The Indian Navy has ordered 45 Mig-29K i.e. They are not relying on LCA Navy arriving anytime soon. Sadly. But. Prudently. INS Vikrant would look a bit sheepish without any aircraft to operate off it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Vivek K » 06 Jul 2015 03:55

^^^^^Typical troll. I would wager that the NLCA would come in to make good the requirements.

The laptop analogy is typical of the forces- finding any excuse to reject domestic products. Reminiscent of the torsion bar failure of the Arjun put Girard by IA and is lifafa journos to defeat the Arjun in favor of the Tin can.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 06 Jul 2015 08:18

IAF combats lowest fighter strength

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 02963.html
Continuous warnings over the past decade as regards the alleged tardy pace of induction of new fighter jets into the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the resultant loss of “combative edge” are now ringing true.
By the end of this year, the IAF would be at its lowest combat strength in more than a decade, a source said.
The government is aware of the gravity of the situation and the plans are afoot to tackle the situation. The country is now faced with the reality of projections on IAF fighter fleet made separately over the past 10 years by the Indian Air Force, strategic thinkers, successive reports of parliamentary committees on defence and the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG).
A senior official admitted “yes we will be down to 32 squadrons by the end of this year and are in the middle of the predicted shortage”. In simple words, the IAF with 576 fighter jets will be well short of the 750-strong fighter jet fleet mandated by a government sanction to wage a simultaneous two-front war with Pakistan and China.
Three squadrons of the vintage single-engine Soviet Union origin MiG-21 and MiG-27 are being phased out as planned this year.
Of the 32 squadrons, the vintage MiG-21 and MiG-27 will form 11 squadrons. The Sukhoi 30-MKI populates 10 squadrons, the 1970’s design British Jaguar forms six squadrons, followed by French Mirage 2000 and Soviet Union’s MiG 29 in two and three squadrons, respectively. The last three are being upgraded with better missiles and avionics.
It is the replacements that bother the IAF. The force is trying to raise a squadron of the twin-engine Russian-origin Sukhoi-30-MKI this year, but much depends on the speed of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) which is licensed to produce it in India. HAL, a Ministry of Defence (MoD)-owned public sector undertaking, was mandated by the Cabinet Committee on Security in March 2006 to produce 16 planes annually and deliver 180 by 2017, in phases. The project is three years behind schedule. Till 2011, HAL had the capacity to produce just eight Sukhoi-30 jets annually, said a report of the CAG in 2014.
“The present production (around 14 jets at HAL) has also to cater to shortages occurring due to long-term overhauls of older Sukhoi-30 planes, besides replacing the phased-out fleets of other jets,” a source said. The Sukhoi’s had been ordered in phases since 1997. The IAF wants 272 of these in its fleet by 2020 and HAL still has to deliver around 70 planes. Some delay was caused by Russia during the early period of the contract. The IAF has 10 squadron of the Sukhoi, besides trainers. It plans to have 13 of these.
The other choice for the IAF is to wait for the final operational clearance (FOC) for light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas, which was okayed with 20 permanent and 33 temporary waivers. “(It) limits the operational efficiency and survivability of the aircraft,” the CAG said in its report on May 8 this year. The temporary waivers have to be ironed out before giving the FOC, which is scheduled for December this year, but is unlikely.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby wig » 06 Jul 2015 08:21

HAL production under lens after Hawk trainer crash
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 952421.cms

Production quality of the country's only aircraft manufacturer, defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), is once again under the scanner after the crash of a Hawk advanced jet trainer (AJT) last month.

Sources said "quill-shaft failure" in the engine has emerged as the prime reason behind the crash of the twin-seat Hawk AJT, which went down in Odisha while on a training sortie from the Kalaikunda airbase in West Bengal on June 3. Fortunately, the two pilots managed to eject safely.

HAL is tasked with manufacturing 99 of the 123 Hawks ordered from BAE Systems, with transfer of technology, in the overall AJT project already worth well over Rs 16,000 crore till now. But the entire endeavor has been marred by politico-bureaucratic apathy, poor long-term planning, flawed multiple contracts and delayed delivery schedules.
As it is, the crash of an AJT, which is meant to be a robust fail-safe flying machine to train rookie pilots in the intricacies of combat flying, is startling. But what has further raised eyebrows is that the ill-fated Hawk, with a Rolls-Royce engine, had clocked just about 1,050 hours of flying.

"Holding that HAL's build quality is not up to the mark, Rolls-Royce has downgraded the TBO (time between engine overhauls) of the Hawk AJTs being made by the PSU to 1,200 hours from 2,000 hours," said a source.

But HAL dismissed such claims. "With the court of inquiry into the Hawk crash yet to be finalized, HAL cannot be blamed for quality issues at this stage. The reduction of TBO to 1,200 hours from 2,000 hours is not true," said a senior HAL official.

"The engine life roadmap for restoration to 2,000 hours has been provided by Rolls-Royce based on mid-level inspection, and components are getting certified for 2,000 hours," he added.

But the fact remains that HAL has faced flak over the years for its poor product quality and maintenance as well as huge time and cost overruns in projects ranging from the 16-year-delay in the now-defunct Sitara intermediate jet trainer to the light utility helicopters.

HAL, now faced with losing its monopoly in the domestic aviation sector, and its primary customer, the IAF, have not had the best of relations over the years. But neutral observers say the two urgently need to come together to resolve all outstanding issues dogging the country's air combat power.

The two, for instance, need to work closely with their Russian counterparts to resolve the quality, spares and maintenance issues enmeshing the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets. Only half of the 195 Sukhois inducted - HAL is manufacturing most of the 272 Sukhois contracted from Russia for over $12 billion - are operational at any given time since the fleet serviceability rate is down to just 55%.

Similarly, the Hawk issues also need to be sorted out on a war-footing. After decades of sounding the alarm over obsolete trainers for its cadets, the IAF had finally begun to induct the Hawk AJTs from November 2007 onwards. The AJTs provide the "requisite transitional training" for rookie pilots to graduate from sub-sonic aircraft to supersonic fighters, some of which like the single-engine MiG-21s are "highly-unforgiving" to pilot errors.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tsarkar » 06 Jul 2015 08:49

Lets spend some time on Medical Industrial Complex, that is as important as Military Industrial Complex. Many in India undergo angioplasty to heal their heart problems.

How many BR members, who've themselves undergone angioplasty or their family members have undergone angioplasty, decided to use an Indian made coronary stent instead of an imported coronary stent?

India needs to develop its healthcare manufacturing industry to be able to provide healthcare to its people.

Often during epidemics like Avian Flu, the prohibitive cost of medicines like Tamiflu is a huge drain on the exchequer.

For the noble purpose of indigenization & development of Indian Medical Industrial Complex, how many of us had Indian medicines instead of Tamiflu if suffering from SARS, or in case of angioplasty used an Indian made stent instead of imported stent?

I understand the scenario is life threatening, but it is so everytime a fighter pilot takes off. I'm sure someone would say that pilots would've done hundreds of sorties, but Indian stents too have been implanted on hundreds of citizens in Govt Hospitals. Yet each sortie and each implant carries its own risk.

What were your choices?

Also, are fighter pilots not the same as the rest of us? So should their mindset be different from ours?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 06 Jul 2015 08:54

Some update from Force magazine on Jags and Mirages upgrade , posting excerpts

http://www.forceindia.net/Interview_TSuvarnaRaju.aspx

What is the update on the Mirage 2000 upgrade programme for the Indian Air Force (IAF)?


Mirage 2000 upgrade was thought about as a result of the obsolescence of its avionics and radar system. As per the contract with IAF, two aircraft have been upgraded to Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) standard by Dassault Aviation in France and are now in India. Two aircraft are now undergoing their upgrade here in Bengaluru. The obtaining of Final Operational Clearance (FOC) for India specific requirements as laid down by the IAF, would be done by HAL.

As things stand presently, we are on track with regards to the schedules and dates prescribed for the Mirage 2000 upgrade and we will be completing this task without any delay. There are no critical issues and there are no major hiccups. Now, you will see the second mission computer installed on the Mirage 2000 upgrade is designed, developed and manufactured by our Mission and Combat System R&D Centre (MCSRDC) at Bengaluru. The computer is ready and while there were some concerns earlier on the adherence to project deadlines for the mission computer development, today the computer is ready and on the bench.

We have also undertaken tasks such as life-extension for the Mirage 2000 fleet and perform major overhauls for this multi-role combat platform and have built up substantial expertise on this aircraft.

What is the update on upgrades for the Jaguar strike fighter for the IAF?


We operate the largest Jaguar fleet in the world and the only one in operational service currently and the entire fleet is looked after by HAL. We have been supporting the product since the Eighties.

Today, the fleet consists of aircraft in two standards, DARIN I and DARIN II, where DARIN stands for Display Attack Ranging and Inertial Navigation. The DARIN I fleet is approaching obsolescence and we are proposing an upgrade to DARIN III for this fleet. DARIN III is an extended upgrade of DARIN II with upgraded open architecture mission computers. We expect the operational clearance for the upgraded DARIN III Jaguars by the end of this year. There was a delay in the development of the Open System Architecture Mission Computer (OSAMC).

Today, we are happy with the performance of upgraded Jaguars and the product is good. The engine flight instruments (EFIS) have also been successfully upgraded and integrated. Tests are progressing well and following this we will look at obtaining the serial compliance for the remaining 59 aircraft. DARIN II demonstrated the Indian capability of manufacturing the mission computer. Now, all our platforms will have Indian mission computers going forward and this is a great achievement. The Hawk has an imported mission computer and we are planning this to be replaced with an indigenously developed one in the future.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) HJT-36 Sitara, both feature Indian mission computers. For the ALH and LCH we are looking at all the computers being developed indigenously. We are trying to make a smart mission computer which is being done by MCSRDC at Bengaluru. HAL’s efforts are keeping the Jaguar flying and in many cases the parts for the aircraft are no longer being manufactured. HAL designers have helped keep the aircraft flying and we are looking to sustain the fleet for at least another decade. We are stockpiling the spares, replacing obsolete items with indigenous substitutes.

What are the future plans for HAL’s rotary wing programmes?

We are very focussed on the future of our helicopter programmes and are looking at the 10-12 tonne class in helicopters. To gain time we are looking at the co-development of a particular platform, with the main intention of shorter timelines. We are also reinforcing our helicopter complex with additional manpower and upgraded infrastructure at the facilities. We are looking at the upgrade for the Dhruv as we have Mk I, II and III. We are creating separate design groups for upgrade and modification of Dhruv. While our numbers for fixed wing platforms are not large, rotary wing has enormous potential and we are also looking at a two tonne rotary Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV).
Last edited by ramana on 06 Jul 2015 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added bold for key points. ramana

shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2015 09:01

tsarkar wrote:For the noble purpose of indigenization & development of Indian Medical Industrial Complex, how many of us had Indian medicines instead of Tamiflu if suffering from SARS, or in case of angioplasty used an Indian made stent instead of imported stent?

The Indian made drug is used regularly for Avian flu. I used it for a member of my family.

For cataracts, my colleagues offer Indian or imported lenses depending on what the patient is willing to pay. They say the results are the same.

Regarding stents, and artificial hips and knees the assumption is that doctors are always above suspicion and will use what is best. That does not happen when the doctor gets free all expenses paid vacations to Thailand or South Africa for using a particular brand. This is now getting more difficult.

For an intestinal anastomosis (rejoining a cut intestine) the cost of imported staplers in Rupees would work about 60,000 per operation. But the multinational (country of origin USA) sales people encourage doctors to (unethically) re use the single use stapling gun and charge only for the cartridge, reducing the overall cost to Rs 15,000 for the stapling accessories. Everyone will deny this.

In comparison a doctor who is "old fashioned" and sews up the intestine using his hands will use materials worth about Rs 2000 in total.

There is a mindset issue here. The person who says that imported cars always promise better service, reliability and parts continue to believe that and will not believe the kind of service one gets from Maruti nowadays. Problem is unless one is very very wealthy one will only experience a handful of cars in one's lifetime. Another question would be "How many cars have you bought and sold in your life and how long have you used them for in order to claim that you know which is best?". For the first 3 years all cars are fine. It's after year 4 that one really understands cars.

Shreeman
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shreeman » 06 Jul 2015 09:39

^^^^
ts,

Its so rare that I can actually contribute something that it feels strange.

1. In generics (forced upon most patients by health insurance, via lower co-payments or mandatory first preference) there is usually more than one indian made choice. Not just Amreeka, but world over there are more indian made drugs eaten than anyone else. Except for TEVA, there is really no one even close in volume for the ranbaxy and reddys etc.
2. The amount of "indian" in everything from stents and pacemakers (say via a medtronic ) or any other "high technology" in medicine is astounding. everything including the imagers, the imaging software, the oncologists and radiologists and ths robotics is "indian" made. Sometimes even in India.

India as a country is in gross denial of its contribution to the field, and the current state of affairs (which is why this is a bad example). Developers and designers -- from india. Programmers -- from india. The best surgeons from brainto heart to prostate? Universally Indian origin. Look up the likes of Patel or Menon (never heard of them, have you?)

Medicine, surgery, medications or even nursing arent your example of choice. It is a field where the rest of the world can learn a thing or two.

Even in India, for every "made in vilayat" stent, implant or pacemaker, many times more indian devices are used. Just as an example, for all the wonderful technology in furrin lands -- a run of the mill orthotic? Better from jaipur or calcutta than any US maker. God forbid if you are a polio suferer.

In medicine, the need is to broadcast how far india has come. Lets just leave it at that.

You can pick the civil aviation sector. How many would travel by air parasite or any domestic carrier if they had a singapore or lufthansa choice. That is a fitting comparison.

And there, I wouldnt. Go. Near. The. Terminal. No, wont set foot on the parasite planes if I can help it. Better a train than parasite if I have the time.

edit -- ps, to add to the good doctor's words, that intestinal stapling? Unless its close to a sphinctor its a shortcut. For the doctor. IMHO, the patient would probably benefit from the doctor suturing by hand. They will end up looking at the gut in question far more carefully than one clamp and done.
Last edited by Shreeman on 06 Jul 2015 10:02, edited 1 time in total.

member_22539
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_22539 » 06 Jul 2015 09:44

tsarkar wrote:Lets spend some time on Medical Industrial Complex, that is as important as Military Industrial Complex. Many in India undergo angioplasty to heal their heart problems.

How many BR members, who've themselves undergone angioplasty or their family members have undergone angioplasty, decided to use an Indian made coronary stent instead of an imported coronary stent?

India needs to develop its healthcare manufacturing industry to be able to provide healthcare to its people.

Often during epidemics like Avian Flu, the prohibitive cost of medicines like Tamiflu is a huge drain on the exchequer.

For the noble purpose of indigenization & development of Indian Medical Industrial Complex, how many of us had Indian medicines instead of Tamiflu if suffering from SARS, or in case of angioplasty used an Indian made stent instead of imported stent?

I understand the scenario is life threatening, but it is so everytime a fighter pilot takes off. I'm sure someone would say that pilots would've done hundreds of sorties, but Indian stents too have been implanted on hundreds of citizens in Govt Hospitals. Yet each sortie and each implant carries its own risk.

What were your choices?

Also, are fighter pilots not the same as the rest of us? So should their mindset be different from ours?



Are you saying that LCA is substandard and some foreign fighter is superb?

If you can't afford to buy fancy and expensive foreign implants, would you bankrupt your family and push them on to the streets to get them?

Also, do you import your meds as well? With your logic, all your meds must be from the original manufacturer in US/Europe/Japan, with no consumption of generic chi-chi SDRE Indian made drugs.


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