The car analogy is very relevant because it lays open the mindset of the user. That is any user would want the optimum, if not the best, for his purpose.
Karan M wrote:The car analogy is fairly irrelevant because spares for cars won't get cut off day 2 in the conflict.
Its completely irrelevant because its comparing a standard COTS item to one that has significant ramifications when used in conflict, and also the cost impact of each of these items.
What you are saying is that the Indian Armed Forces behave like a typical indian middle class family buying cars & completely ignore the strategic ramifications of their import dependence. Which is irrelevant to the middle class family (but relevant to the GOI thanks to what it does to the Indian economy if these were pure imports and policy decisions would be taken) but completely a different issue when it comes to the armed forces and the levers foreign states get on India.
But ironically, since you brought up the issue of spares, then historically, for indigenous products, spares has been an acute problem
affecting a user's mindset because designers & producers do not help the user in setting up an adequate spares supply line. https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/10/ ... er-hoogly/
The aircraft sat on te ground for a long time after this incident for the lack of a propeller.( Prompt resupply of spares had never been a strong point of HAL!).
By those same standards, the IN's MiG-29 Ks, the IAFs MiG-29s, the IAFs Mirage 2000s, Su-30 MKIs have all sat on ground for huge periods of time for want of spares.
Clearly, "prompt resupply of spares" was never a strong point of MiG either. Otherwise why would the BRD have to make them?
I won't even belabour the point by putting up links. They are all over the forum.
Heres a relevant quote about the Su-30A more crippling problem is shortage of spares. Forget the old MiG-21s and MiG-27s which are no longer made anywhere in the world, even the Sukhois often face spares crunch. So much so that three or four Su-30MKIs have been turned into 'Christmas Trees' from which the engineers pluck spares. “These [new] aircraft are being cannibalised to meet the requirement of spares for the other aircraft in the Su-30 squadrons,” said an official at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which builds the aircraft under Russian licence. “But I won't blame the IAF. They are facing problems in getting spares from Russia.”
Never mind the operational state of various Indian services "subsystems" and "platforms" purchased at extortionate costs from abroad and whose spares or tech support never arrived.
The only reason I have stayed off of from posting the sad state of affairs there is because of the negative attention it would drive towards the Armed Forces in the muck raking media. But when it comes to portraying a skewed version of how the real state of affairs is viz our imports, we amongst ourselves on this forum need to understand the reality.
Maruts too stayed grounded for long periods that affected a user's career progression because of lack of operational flight hours.
In the 1980s' I recall several instances wherein Jaguars were grounded, MiGs were grounded (especially the MiG-29s). In 2001 (that long after induction), the IA was still shopping around for spares to get many airframes in its MiG fleet serviceable.
In India's case, the Maruts were the first aircraft it made. Subsystems would mostly be imported.
What was MiGs excuse and the reason for the IAFs continued loyalty? Yes yes, cheap Russian era imports etc, Su breakdown. But issues continue today.
Su-30 serviceability was down to 50% and new built HAL Su-30s were being stripped for spares by the IAF. What was Sukhois excuse?
Our 7 AN/TPQ-37s are unserviceable per reports. Was HAL involved?
These same issues apply EVERYWHERE.
The Indian manufacturers are not any worse off than what we depend on from abroad & that's the sad truth. (Sad for all those who thought at least the imports would perform error free and with logistics a given - even I used to be amongst that camp!!).
Spares for GE F-404 of Tejas or MTU engine of Arjun or Israeli sight, HMDS & Litening pod can be cut off day 2 in conflict.
Missed the point. I clearly noted that spares for Indian made systems with lesser items imported, can be stocked and hence are better than systems which are fully imported.
In the case of the above, there are a handful of systems that are imported. They can be either indigenized (if we think its worth it) or we can stockpile the high volume spares. Typically mission avionics and electronics items (apart from high voltage/amp systems) tend to last a while.
Our Moog actuators for instance ran for ages. Point being 50% import dependence (and progressive indigenization) is eons better than 100% import dependence and limited TOT (which we continue to be dependent on for key items abroad).
We are indigenizing our Indian systems in many cases to the displeasure of our suppliers. Can go into line and verse there but its not really of interest to anyone apart from those who follow these issues with such detail.
In the case of the fancy Rafales pretty much everything is at the mercy of Dassault.
TOT doesn't give us any rights to indigenize beyond a point either.
India owns the LCA. If the political class shows the ability to commit funds & the user supports it, we can replace sanctionable items from those from other vendors. Nobody can deny us that right. With an imported weapon we lack the ability to even open up black boxes lest we void the warranty.
The corruption is a digression from the point I'm making, viz, an user's mindset.
Its hardly a digression and one which cuts to the heart of how the user's mindset is shaped and then molded into it what it is by selective leaks & constant disparagement of local efforts. The point that you raise is influenced by corruption.
The corrupt folks spread across various orgs/procurement arms hide the real results of trials (eg Arjun versus T-90), make sure the rank and file continues to think the local item is flawed, unserviceable & unsuitable while spreading the belief that the local item can never replace the imported equivalent.
Hence many in the user apart from the trials teams are completely unaware of the real issues and stick to what they are being told, that their interests are served by imports and its hence the "babus", the "worthless scientists", the "good for nothing politicians" who are conspiring to deny them their rightful items.
The perception war continues and the import wagon rolls on.
srai wrote:Are not services folks genetically similar to common Indians who buy screwdrivered Japanese, Korean or German cars instead of Indian? So what's wrong when IAF says screwdriver the Rafale.
What's wrong is that if sanctions bite, the Indian folks can make do with Marutis and even ambassadors. On the other hand, if something like a Project Qari leak occurs at time of conflict, India would have a bunch of white elephants called the Rafale which do nothing and for which we mortgaged the family silver.
Besides, two wrongs don't necessarily make a right. Whether it be (many) Indians mindlessly buying dumped Chinese goods because they are "cheap and available" or procurement snafus in defence, the same systemic problems occur at multiple levels.