Intelligence and National Security Discussion

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Austin
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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Jul 2014 14:50

In 2010, a US Court Allowed Agency to Spy on BJP: Report

Washington: America's top spy agency was authorised by a US court in 2010 to carry out surveillance on the BJP along with five other political organisations across the globe, including Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood and Pakistan Peoples Party, according to a classified document.

The BJP figures in the list of foreign political parties along with Lebanon's Amal, the Bolivarian Continental Coordinator of Venezuela, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian National Salvation Front and the Pakistan Peoples Party for whom the National Security Agency (NSA) had sought permission to carry out surveillance, says the document made public by The Washington Post yesterday.

The document lists the 193 foreign governments as well as foreign factions and other entities that were part of a 2010 certification approved by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. The list includes India.

"These are the entities on which the NSA may conduct surveillance, for the purpose of gathering foreign intelligence," the paper said, citing documents provided to it by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden.

It said each year a new certification must be approved by the court to permit such surveillance under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act.

"Virtually no foreign government is off-limits for the National Security Agency, which has been authorized to intercept information 'concerning' all but four countries, according to top-secret documents," The Post reported.

The four countries are Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

The certification of surveillance also includes other international organisations like World Bank, IMF, the European Union and the International Atomic Energy Agency.

"The NSA is not necessarily targeting all the countries or organizations identified in the certification, the affidavits and an accompanying exhibit; it has only been given authority to do so," The Post said.

Without specifically responding to questions related to surveillance on India and the BJP in particular, NSA spokesperson Vanee' Vines told PTI that the agency collects foreign intelligence based on specific intelligence requirements set by the President, the Director of National Intelligence, and departments and agencies through the National Intelligence Priorities Framework.

Mr Snowden leaked thousands of classified documents to media uncovering the existence of numerous global surveillance programmes, many of them run by the NSA, triggering an outrage worldwide.

RoyG
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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 02 Jul 2014 08:52

Spoke to someone in the know. IB and R&AW may be combined with arrest powers. Police will be given increased intelligence training. Two tier system for counter terror, counter intelligence, industrial espionage etc. NIA and CBI to be disbanded.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby member_28539 » 02 Jul 2014 09:58

Whoooa! disband CBI? NIA I understand...any gurus can shed some light on this?

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby sum » 02 Jul 2014 10:12

joygoswami wrote:Special Report - National Security Guard (NSG): Making of Black Cats


A phantom unit unveiled in this video which is made up of 1% of the NSG, "best of the best".

Seems to be some SF unit within NSG since mentions that these folks are taken elsewhere for training after NSG basic training.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 02 Jul 2014 14:07

Whoooa! disband CBI? NIA I understand...any gurus can shed some light on this?


Are we going to Combine IB/RAW like the Pakistanis do? and are they going to take over CBI responsibilities as well..? who can see a clusterf**k waiting to happen?

Also considering we already have such a horrendous record of information dissemination and sharing amongst intelligence agencies does de-centralizing intelligence to local police forces actually help?

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby SanjayC » 02 Jul 2014 14:59

Indian foreign policy: a wake up call
http://www.indiafacts.co.in/indian-fore ... TQonW.dpbs

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 02 Jul 2014 16:29

rkhanna wrote:
Whoooa! disband CBI? NIA I understand...any gurus can shed some light on this?


Are we going to Combine IB/RAW like the Pakistanis do? and are they going to take over CBI responsibilities as well..? who can see a clusterf**k waiting to happen?

Also considering we already have such a horrendous record of information dissemination and sharing amongst intelligence agencies does de-centralizing intelligence to local police forces actually help?


State police intelligence boost would be a good thing for India. They know the community and can probably cultivate a greater number of informants especially among muslims. They can link up with a national intelligence setup and better coordinate operations. Moreover, the line is becoming increasingly blurred between foreign and domestic intelligence operations in the neighborhood. Arrest powers would probably speed up nabbing suspects as well.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby member_25399 » 02 Jul 2014 17:03

and are they going to take over CBI responsibilities as well..? who can see a clusterf**k waiting to happen?

And i always thought there is huge difference between maintaining law and order and intelligence gathering :shock:

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 02 Jul 2014 21:29

State police intelligence boost would be a good thing for India. They know the community and can probably cultivate a greater number of informants especially among muslims. They can link up with a national intelligence setup and better coordinate operations. Moreover, the line is becoming increasingly blurred between foreign and domestic intelligence operations in the neighborhood. Arrest powers would probably speed up nabbing suspects as well.


IMO State police forces Intel Units should be limited in Scope and any real talent/Capability be transferred to Local IB offices. Our State and Central intel agencies (including police)already have a horrendous record of coordination. I doubt anything is going to improve.

Secondly. Infiltrating Muslim neighbourhoods is all hunky dooyi but if you think that that (Islamic terror) is THE major threat to national security you are mistaken. The Naxal (and co) practically run 28% of Indian territory with ample support from neighbouring countries. Here central forces have been far more effective than a horribly trained and equipped police force (keep in mind rural police)

And i always thought there is huge difference between maintaining law and order and intelligence gathering :shock:


This brings up an important point of "Police" in our country. Our police is essentially a Law & Order force. I.e they keep the peace, ferry VIPs, do crowd control. Incase of a crime they simply round up the usual suspects and beat a confession out of them. There is an almost non-existent ability to do any detective work today or forensic, etc. Any real talent in the IPS ends up with ATS like units and then IB/RAW. I know OT but there is a critical need to build up a credible detective force within Crime Branchs, the intelligence business already has enough of an alphabet soup without them tripping all over each other.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 02 Jul 2014 22:45

If you think that Naxalism is a bigger threat than Islamic radicalism especially with the demographic invasion of the NE, you are sadly mistaken. Naxals are just a bunch of looters. Their ideology is money. As development and tougher action from the state and center increase they they will be neutralized in due time. It is not a sustainable enterprise.

State police already do much of the heavy lifting. ATS attachments have already infiltrated many terror networks. IB usually deals with higher crimes usually coming from abroad. Naturally coordination will be increased especially with Doval at the helm of affairs. I have already said that intelligence gathering will be increased which includes forensics.

R&AW may be combined IB. Honestly, given the strong link between homegrown anti national activities and state sponsored ones, I feel it is a natural outcome.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 04 Jul 2014 14:48

If you think that Naxalism is a bigger threat than Islamic radicalism especially with the demographic invasion of the NE, you are sadly mistaken. Naxals are just a bunch of looters. Their ideology is money. As development and tougher action from the state and center increase they they will be neutralized in due time. It is not a sustainable enterprise.


I humbly disagree with you. Naxalites control nearly 28% of Indian territory and large swaths of population. This includes some very mineral rich areas of India and potential industrial belts. The cost to the Indian economy and to social development of these parts is actually mind boggling.

PS> another point ask your contact if he can shed light to privately on the actual going ons of the Uranium mines in Tribal areas. You will be surprised.

If you think their movement is NOT sustainable because they are doing it for money please look at any Drug Fuelled rebel movements in South America. It can go on for decades...

Radicalisation of a section of population also as much a function of lack of money as The Promise of money is for the Naxalites. The only difference is at all times terrorist action against Indian "Soft" Targets will continue be surface wounds but in the forefront of the minds of the middle class as our malls and bus stops get bombed. The naxalite movement is not in our face so we dont bother reading or researching it but it is doing way more harm to India than anything else.

Also the "Threat" you talk about is a future projection no matter the level of Probability. The Threat i talk off is already here and is growing stronger every day.



State police already do much of the heavy lifting. ATS attachments have already infiltrated many terror networks. IB usually deals with higher crimes usually coming from abroad. Naturally coordination will be increased especially with Doval at the helm of affairs. I have already said that intelligence gathering will be increased which includes forensics.

R&AW may be combined IB. Honestly, given the strong link between home-grown anti national activities and state sponsored ones, I feel it is a natural outcome.


Indian Police specially Mumbai ATS and Delhi CT units have done an outstanding job over the last 2 decades but sadly they are absolutely crap POLICE forces with the exception of riot control and ferrying VIPs around. Thats my only point. Its high time we reduce their burden from CT roles (Which is taking their best and brightest) and let them build their CRIME SOLVING capabilities.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 04 Jul 2014 17:17

India isn't Colombia and the Naxalites don't have a cash rich industry like drugs to lean on. They loot and take aid from abroad. NSA Doval, former IB guy, has also commented that Bangladeshi immigrants coupled with Islamic radicalism are the the BIGGEST security threats facing India today. You're off the mark on this one.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 04 Jul 2014 17:45

India isn't Colombia and the Naxalites don't have a cash rich industry like drugs to lean on. They loot and take aid from abroad. NSA Doval, former IB guy, has also commented that Bangladeshi immigrants coupled with Islamic radicalism are the the BIGGEST security threats facing India today. You're off the mark on this one.


Naxalites dont just loot. They also run enough illegal mining operations and a flourishing illegal arms trade along side their extortion racket.
- but that is not the point. THEY CONTROL 28% of Indian LANDMASS how is that NOT the biggest security threat to India as against a terrorist who is going kill a few hundred odd people every few years. The body count from the Naxalites on an annual basis is way more. (THe Islamic Terrorist has been more or less limited in his ability to damage us as a Country)

Lets just agree to disagree - interesting conversation nonetheless

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 04 Jul 2014 18:01

I include extracting mineral wealth into looting. Again, Islamic radicalism especially in the NE, UP, Bihar, Kashmir, and Kerala is slowly percolating into many other states in India. Again, NSA Doval, former IB operations guy, thinks Islamic fundamentalism coupled with Bangladeshi immigration is the biggest security threat to India. Islamists also have the richest funding within and outside the Union of India, man power, and pan-Indian presence. You are simply off the mark.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 04 Jul 2014 19:07

^^Sirji i read you loud and clear and i dont disagree with what you have said my disagreement is with the Quantum of threat. Anways like I said lets agree to disagree

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby Sachin » 07 Jul 2014 13:22

RoyG wrote:NIA and CBI to be disbanded.

Or are they going to be combined? NIA and CBI are more like police agencies focusing on specific cases. NIA currently focuses only on terrorism related cases. Ideally these cases too can be classified as high profile cases and a more fine tuned CBI can focus on such cases. CBI is highly politicised at the moment, and that has to get removed. CBI also has offices/establishments in pretty much every part of the country. An NIA-CBI amalgamation, with proper mandate and political intereference removed may work much better than NIA and CBI working as separate agencies.

gauravsh wrote:And i always thought there is huge difference between maintaining law and order and intelligence gathering

CBI also is not tasked with routine law and order. They work on high profile and complicated cases.

rkhanna wrote:This brings up an important point of "Police" in our country. Our police is essentially a Law & Order force. I.e they keep the peace, ferry VIPs, do crowd control. Incase of a crime they simply round up the usual suspects and beat a confession out of them.

State police forces being a state controlled force cannot be classified as one large unit (which does good or does bad). How much a state police will do good (or do bad) depends upon the state, its general social factors etc. This "simple rounding up of suspects and beating a confession" out of them may be prevalent in states where general law and order is pathetic, the people do NOT know their own rights and duties, and where the goonda-giri culture is prevalent. But in any place where people know their rights, where there is also a strong media presence, and a political will to improve the police force - things will change. Compare Mumbai Police with say Patna police; you will get to know the difference. Both pretty much works on the same rules & laws.

At present in majority of the states the same police force does L&O duty and Investigation work. A few states like Karnataka have already split the tasks up. They have dedicated personnel at every PS who focus on L&O or Investigation work. Other states like Kerala are also working on having such split ups.

IB itself has lots of their staff on deputation basis. These folks mainly come from the Special Branch CID of state police forces.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 08 Jul 2014 04:42

Confirmation of something a lot of BRFites speculated about. Very interesting that the IB was used for an external mission. Finally, the fact that IB (reports to HM), NSA (reports to PM) and the EAM worked in coordination also sets to rest any rumors of conflict between PM Modi and Sushma Swaraj. Kudos!

NSA Doval & IB Chief Ibrahim went on secret mission to Iraq & Saudi

India’s diplomatic outreach to bring home 46 nurses as well as help thousands of other Indians in Iraq leave the violence-torn country was steered by National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Intelligence Bureau Director Asif Ibrahim, who flew to Baghdad and Riyadh respectively last month, The Hindu has confirmed.

Their missions, which were kept secret at the time, were powered by phone calls from External Affairs Sushma Swaraj to her counterparts in the region.

At the end of June, the situation for both the 46 nurses in Tikrit as well as 39 men in Mosul seemed bleak, with no real intelligence on rebel groups that were in charge of them and why they were being forcibly held. The ISIS had taken control of several cities, including Tikrit, Mosul and the Baiji refinery.

At places, they were assisted by Ba’athist groups still loyal to the residual regime of Saddam Hussein, and rebel military commanders from the Iraqi army, who held areas in a loose tactical coalition as ISIS, which made it even more difficult to open clear lines of communication.

Faced with a grim situation, Prime Minister Narendra Modi asked Mr. Doval to convene a high-level meeting to discuss the latest intelligence on the fighting in Tikrit and Mosul, as well as the possibilities for a mass evacuation of “all Indians in Iraq, if necessary.” A day after the meeting, on June 25, Mr. Doval went on a top secret mission to Iraq to understand the position on the ground and make high-level contacts in the Iraqi government.

Since the conflict zone in Iraq is held mainly by Sunni insurgents and militant groups, Mr. Ibrahim was dispatched to Riyadh on June 25-26 to speak with senior officials about intelligence on these groups.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby sum » 08 Jul 2014 08:38

^^ Wonder what was RAW doing in all this? No role for it at all?

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby Paul » 08 Jul 2014 09:00

Doval sir really revels in this cloak and dagger ops. In his overenthusiasm hope he does not fall into the wrong hands. He is the NSA after all these days. But this will not go unnoticed by the ISI.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2014 03:58

LokeshC wrote:
harbans wrote:This 'ISIS account' surfaced somewhere:

{quote}This India had a change; there was a change in government. A fanatic and extremist man had been ordained. Rather than negotiating, they have sent two bloody big naval ships. Heavily armed us? Bloody, we could have been wiped out if not acted maturely. The Indians reached here and directly they communicated us with a list, a bloody list. It was us who were supposed to send them list of our demands, but bloody they sent us list. And do you bashers have really got any idea which shits that list enlisted? No demands, but bloody addresses of hubs and locations of our units. - {/quote}

http://www.confessionfiles.com/index.ph ... ed-of-time


Wow, if true that is rather stupendous power projection.



Namo Doval!!!

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby JayS » 09 Jul 2014 07:01

ramana wrote:
harbans wrote:This 'ISIS account' surfaced somewhere:

{quote}This India had a change; there was a change in government. A fanatic and extremist man had been ordained. Rather than negotiating, they have sent two bloody big naval ships. Heavily armed us? Bloody, we could have been wiped out if not acted maturely. The Indians reached here and directly they communicated us with a list, a bloody list. It was us who were supposed to send them list of our demands, but bloody they sent us list. And do you bashers have really got any idea which shits that list enlisted? No demands, but bloody addresses of hubs and locations of our units. - {/quote}

http://www.confessionfiles.com/index.ph ... ed-of-time


Namo Doval!!!


Does the site look like it contains anything serious stuff?? But its fun reading it. Jingo khush hua... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Jul 2014 20:00

To be taken v.v.seriously by the GOI.The total compromise of electronic communications,the Net,with the revelations of Snoopgate,Snowden and the numerous covert US programmes for monitoring every kind off communication around the world,has resulted in the comeback of the electric typewriter,to drastically reduce electronic espionage.RAW,the IB,NIA,etc. should immediately take steps to go "back to the future" with the humble elec. typewriter.Not perfect,but reduces the risk considerably.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -know.html
Can typewriters stop spies? Five things you didn't know
As Germany announces plans to use typewriters rather than computers to deter US spying, here are five facts about the contrasting technologies
Can typewriters stop spies? Five things you didn't know
Each typewriter is uniquely traceable Photo: Alamy

By Our Foreign Staff
2:40PM BST 15 Jul 2014

Even offline computers can be monitored
The NSA uses radio technology to monitor offline computers, smart phones and other devices.


According to a New York Times report, the agency installed software on 10,000 computers which were shipped around the world, enabling NSA agents to locate and monitor the machines even when offline.

The NSA insists such technology – which relies on radio waves transmitted from tiny circuit boards and USB cards inserted into computers – is "only being deployed overseas".

The programme, known as Quantum, has reportedly targeted Chinese Army, Russian military and Mexican drug cartels – among others – since its introduction in or before 2008.
Related Articles

German plan to take on NSA: Classical music and typewriters
15 Jul 2014
The internet isn't the only way to download information

On a more basic level, computers which aren't connected to the internet still have any number of peripheral data ports that can be hooked up to USBs, disc drives or printers.

Bradley Manning – now Chelsea Manning – transported 91,000 classified documents that became known as the Iran War logs via rewritable CDs.

Moreover, hard drives eventually break down, but remain susceptible to data harvesting. The same legal technology used by data reclamation companies to retrieve information from defunct computers can be used by thieves if old hard drives are not securely disposed of.

The Russians are already doing it

Last year Kremlin sources revealed Russia's Federal Guard Service (FSO) was spending 486,000 roubles – around £10,000 – on a number of electric typewriters.

The return to typewriters was prompted by the publication of secret documents by WikiLeaks, the whistle-blowing website, as well as Edward Snowden, the fugitive US intelligence contractor.

Directives to the defence minister and the supreme commander-in-chief, Mr Putin, were already printed on paper for security reasons, a defence ministry source said at the time.

Each typewriter is uniquely traceable

Some models of typewriter including the Triumph Adler are designed so that each specific unit creates a unique "handwriting" traceable to that one alone.

However...
Typewriters can be spied upon

In 1952, the FBI analysed the ribbon of a typewriter used by CIA officer Aldrich Ames – actually a double agent for the KGB – to unearth plans for a clandestine meeting in Venezuela.

And in 1985 Soviet spies installed secret "keystroke loggers" and antennas in at least 13 typewriters in the US Embassy in Moscow to detect and transmit the typing patterns of embassy secretaries.

The same technology is used more broadly today by criminals to steal passwords and credit card details.

And of course, paper documents are still unreliable - they can be stolen or photographed, or go up in smoke in case of a fire.

There is also the matter of human error – the history of intelligence is rife with examples of spies leaving briefcases of classified documents in public places, or in the company of friendly "honeytrap" agents..

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby SanjayC » 15 Jul 2014 20:14

^^^ Can the same technology be used for EVM magic?

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 16 Jul 2014 02:57

Electric typewriters?

Surely grid/mains interference/fluctuations result from the typing process and can potentially be harvested for information i.e signal in the noise.

So maybe manual typewriters.


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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Jul 2014 20:27

ramana wrote:
LokeshC wrote:
Wow, if true that is rather stupendous power projection.



Namo Doval!!!


Well, the home front has to become strong too.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 24 Jul 2014 19:20

LokeshC wrote:
harbans wrote:This 'ISIS account' surfaced somewhere:

{quote}This India had a change; there was a change in government. A fanatic and extremist man had been ordained. Rather than negotiating, they have sent two bloody big naval ships. Heavily armed us? Bloody, we could have been wiped out if not acted maturely. The Indians reached here and directly they communicated us with a list, a bloody list. It was us who were supposed to send them list of our demands, but bloody they sent us list. And do you bashers have really got any idea which shits that list enlisted? No demands, but bloody addresses of hubs and locations of our units. - {/quote}

http://www.confessionfiles.com/index.ph ... ed-of-time


Wow, if true that is rather stupendous power projection.


ramana wrote:Namo Doval!!!


That was before BRICS. And Many erstwhile officials of former Iraqi regime would have help us. Release was confidence booster and Congi silencer.Body language spoke loudly then the Man himself.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby saumitra_j » 27 Jul 2014 09:32

Listening Bugs found at Nitin Gadkari's Residence :evil: :evil:

high power listening devices were found in the bedroom of Nitin Gadkari at his 13 Teen Murti Lane residence in New Delhi.


Initial investigations have revealed that the bugs were "planted in the house by a foreign agency since the sophisticated listening devices found are used only by western intelligence operatives, particularly the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the National Security Agency (NSA)


This is not the first such case of surveillance of senior politicians in recent times. In June 2011, there were reports that offices of the Ministry of Finance were bugged. President Pranab Mukherjee was heading the ministry at that time. About a year later, there was a report that the then Defence Minister A.K. Antony's office had been bugged. While the details were not made public, the incidents were seen as a part of internal Congress politics, unlike in the present case, where the role of a foreign agency is suspected.


Hope Ajit Doval and Modi have all of this well taken care off...

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby sum » 28 Jul 2014 15:53

X-post:
sum wrote:Keep distance, Modi tells SPG men

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who faces unprecedented threats to his life, is believed to have directed the Special Protection Group (SPG) to be away from “hearing distance” even as it guards him.

The instructions are believed to have been given to avoid a leak of Modi’s confidential conversations, said government sources. A “close protection team” of SPG, headed by a Deputy Inspector General rank officer, shadows the prime minister to provide him the innermost ring of protection.


Security officials said Modi’s concerns may not be out of place as an IPS officer on deputation to the SPG was sent back to his parent cadre some years ago after it emerged that he was attentively listening to a former prime minister’s talk while on duty and passing the information to others.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 28 Jul 2014 18:11

I'm not surprised that the SPG may have been penetrated by foreign intelligence or that some may be loyal to Congress. The entire service needs to be sanitized especially if Modi isn't comfortable with the SPG being in "listening" distance to him. I am sure that Doval and the IB have expressed their concern to Modi especially with all these leaks taking place. Listening devices ending up in sensitive locations may have also prompted the measure.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby jamwal » 28 Jul 2014 18:55

I am V Balachandran, a former special secretary, Cabinet Secretariat, Government of India and author of National Security and Intelligence Management. AMA (Ask Me Anything)
http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/ ... secretary/

Hi r/India,

I am Vappala Balachandran, a former special secretary, Cabinet Secretariat, Government of India. I have worked in Maharashtra Police for 17 years and 19 years in Cabinet Secretariat. In 1993 & 1994 I led the Indian interagency groups for annual dialogue with US agencies on terrorism. I was a member of the 2 man “High Level Committee” appointed by Government of Maharashtra to enquire into the police response on the Mumbai 26/11 terror attacks in 2008. I write a regular column on internal security issues in Sunday Guardian, a New Delhi Sunday paper. I recently wrote a book, National Security and Intelligence Management. This is a compilation of my published works and lectures for the last 15 years on different facets of our national security.

More about the Book

Proof I’ll be answering question till 7 pm. Ask me anything!

EDIT: Sorry, but I need to leave for now. But, if the moderators agree I will be willing to answer the remaining questions offline.


[–]Shubham_27 11 points 2 hours ago
Hello Sir !

Many appointments to committees (such as the one of R.D.Pradhan to the committee you were part of) by the government are influenced by political affiliations . How do these affect the functioning of the Committees ?

The committee you were a part of has been labelled as 'lame duck'. Your comments?

How clueless are politicians about intelligence management ,national security etc. and how much do they care or affect the working of the secretariat?

permalinksavereportgive goldreply
[–]VBalachandran[S] 13 points 2 hours ago
Our committee was not affected by any political affiliation. It was a professional committee since we were asked to only enquire into the systemic mistakes committed. We had no other charter. Both of us did not have any political affiliation. It is because of that, that we could pass some strictures even against the high politicians.

Yes. Unfortunately one magazine described us, before even we started our work, as lame duck. That is because both of us were from Maharashtra cadre and it was presumed by that magazine that we would not find out any systemic mistakes. After we submitted our report this wrong impression was removed.

Some politicians are clueless because of lack of experience. This is because intelligence management is a specialized subject in which none can be an expert unless one deals with the subject for some time. Similar is the case with the expertise on national security. But in my experience there are majority of politicians who take active interest in national security and intelligence as they come to know about these two subjects with their experience.



[–]draconiand3v1l 11 points 2 hours ago
Mr. Balachandran,

What, in your opinion, are the biggest challenges facing Indian intelligence agencies today? (Including procedural delays, political interference, lack of resources etc)

permalinksavereportgive goldreply
[–]VBalachandran[S] 20 points an hour ago
I would put procedural delays or more appropriately procedural mistakes as the reason why intelligence is not effective in India. That is because intelligence cycle consists of collection, collation (filing at the appropriate place subject-wise), analysis and communication. Very often, new intelligence on the same subject are not filed appropriately. Quite often, our institutional memory is not good. What was reported earlier is not connected with the latest developments. As an example, there was a case of a rogue ship being intercepted by the coast guard of mumbai coast in 2007. Somehow these people escaped but were later arrested by Jammu and Kashmir police who suspected them to be Lashkar terrorists. However, this was not passed on to mumbai police. Next year, in november 2008, a group of 10 lashkar terrorists came to mumbai in a similar fashion which resulted in the 26/11 terrorist attacks. Had this 2007 incident been widely circulated among the police forces, perhaps more preventive action could have been taken before 26/11 attacks. This is just one case. I can quote any number of such cases. There are also difficulties in not being able to analyse the implications of a new information because the intelligence analysts do not have adequate knowledge on the subject. The tendency is to give lowest priority to intelligence branches in all the police forces in India. As a result we do not have competent officers to handle intelligence.

Having worked in State and Central intelligence for over 22 years I can definitely say that political interference or lack of resources are not the main reasons why our intelligence is inadequate. Thus it is for central intelligence agencies and the police forces to improve their methodology of collecting, interpreting and communicating intelligence. It is for this reason why 26/11 committee had made several recommendations on improving our methodology of dealing with intelligence.




[–]piezodMeri bhains ko danda kyun mara? 8 points 2 hours ago
Hi, thank you for doing the AMA and for helping our nation by doing the work you have been doing. A lot of times people behind the scene are unappreciated.

How does India rank up to intelligence services when compared to other countries? What is our weak point and our strength?

What sort of surveillance do we do on civilians in general and under suspicion? Is it to such a level where the individuals rights are or can be infringed?

What do you feel about the individual's right to privacy when it comes to the state?

What are your views on hacktivists like 'Anyonomous'?

At the grassroot level - cops and other armed personnel, at times do not see the full picture. A lot of them are dedicated and in a low paying thankless job. Are there any programs in place to help them out?

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 8 points an hour ago
I have dealt with our intelligence organisations extensively in my book "National Security and Intelligence Management" and compared them with other intelligence services. Our intelligence services had to totally reorient their aims and methodology after independence. Before independence we had no experience in intelligence work, unlike other countries like UK, USA, France etc. where intelligence departments were functioning for centuries. Even Israel, which became independent along with us in the 1940s, had the experience of using intelligence by some of their underground outfits like Hagannah etc which came handy after independence. Considering that we started domestic intelligence only in 1947 and foreign intelligence in 1968, I would say that our record is quite good. No intelligence service can anticipate every threat scenario. The example of 9/11 for America can be quoted.

Our intelligence services do not do surveillance on individuals unless there are strong reasons for it based on their behaviour. Telephone tapping can be done only with the authorisation of legal competent authority. Other forms of surveillance are also authorised at a higher level when there are legal reasons for it.

The individual should have his right to privacy and no government can curtail his rights without reason. Our law courts have repeatedly said that the individual's privacy should be respected.

I personally believe that hacking could be justified only to frustrate attempts by terrorists or subversive elements.

I quite agree that at the grassroot level the policemen or other law enforcement authorities do not respect individuals privacy or liberty. The only way to improve this situation is by public vigilance, supported by the media which we are already doing at least in big cities.



[–]PC_maniacformerly devin_weston 9 points an hour ago
What are your views on Government spying on citizens?

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 5 points an hour ago
I have already answered this question earlier. Spying per se on citizens is not permitted under any govt regulations unless there are reasons warranting such a measure. In other words a law-abiding citizen should have no fear of surveillance by govt. If there is any breach, civil rights groups, media and higher authorities should intervene and stop such practices.



[–]mohanbhagwat 6 points 2 hours ago
Dear Mr. Balachandran,

What are your views on the Rightwing Hindu ? Do you think that the Hindu Right can be threat to the nascent secular ideology of the Indian state?

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 22 points an hour ago
I do not think any orthodox (if you prefer you can call it Rightwing) religious belief poses a threat to any state. It becomes dangerous only when religious beliefs result in overt acts of subversion like working against the aims of the state. A secular nation can co-exist with strong religious beliefs.



[–]rahulthewallKadhi Chawal Bhakt 4 points an hour ago
Good evening Mr. Balachandran. Thanks for doing the AMA.

In recent years, have you seen a push for shoring up the cyber security infrastructure in India or even a willingness to do so. While it might not be true, the Indian state gives the impression of lagging behind technologically. Do you see our security apparatus ever being as technologically rigorous and stocked with brilliant minds like the NSA?

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 5 points 58 minutes ago
Unfortunately, our efforts in cyber security have not kept pace with the spread of internet culture in our country. This is partly because well qualified cyber experts join private enterprises and not the govt because of poor pay scales. Govt pay scales being inelastic, it takes a lot of time to catch up with what the private sector is offering.

Even in USA, in the early 1990s they had similar difficulties in getting the right talent to the NSA since funding was drastically curtailed after the end of the cold war. The strength of NSA which was 90,000 was cut to 30,000 by President Clinton who felt that there was no need for such a huge department. NSA then retrenched many of their younger employees, leaving only the older staff who were not technologically competent. The US congress had to intervene and make a special provision to induct recruits from private enterprises to shore up the technological capability of NSA. We should also do something like that since govt service is getting less and less attractive.



[–]_dexter 4 points an hour ago
Mr. Balanchandran,

How much access does NSA have to Indian data?

How do you assess India's preparation to terrorism and terrorist attacks?

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 7 points an hour ago
National Security Agency (NSA) which was set up during the cold war time was meant to undertake global efforts to frustrate soviet union's designs all over the world. Hence they formed coalition with other governments like UK, Australia and even some European powers. NSA does only electronic surveillance but not human intelligence. After the cold war ended, their main concentration was on terrorism. They collect electronic data, store them and release to the concerned department in USA as a tool of foreign or defence policies. They also share electronic intelligence with friendly governments.
We do not have official knowledge about the extent of NSA's electronic surveillance on Indian targets except through what is appearing in the media. This has been taken up at an official level both by the UPA and NDA governments.

India has a mixed record in this respect mainly because major acts of terrorism on Indian targets are planned from abroad. This poses considerable difficulties which can be overcome only by better intelligence efforts and through intelligence cooperation with friendly countries.



[–]panditji_reloadedRose, Mary & Marlow 4 points an hour ago
It is said former Prime Minister IK Gujral decided to wind up RAW operation in Pakistan during his tenure. Source

How true is this?

What was the effect of this decision?

Has RAW re-established operation capabilities in Pakistan since then?

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 5 points 56 minutes ago
As far as I know, no such instructions were given by the late PM IK Gujral. In any case, the charter of our external intelligence agency is to protect India from external threats and no PM had interfered with this charter.

In view of 1 above, there was no effect of this decision.

We have adequate capability to watch threats emanating from Pakistan.



[–]the_hitchhiker賢者タイム 3 points an hour ago
Sir, thank you for doing this AMA!

Question: Are there ways in which we, the common folk of the country, contribute to strengthening National Security and to the fight against terrorism (without putting ourselves at risk)? If yes, could you explain some?

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 3 points 50 minutes ago
The concept of private-govt participation has emerged in USA in the wake of 9/11 since it was found that govt agencies like FBI cannot watch all the threats to their country. Hence, there is a strong element of private participation in the scheme of department of homeland security (DHS). For example, they have an advisory group consisting of citizens and corporates to protect their infrastructure like power generation units, communication units, airports, ports etc which are under private management. At the state and county level there are citizens groups who actively assist the authorities in watching suspicious activities and alerting them. These are legally codified so that the citizens have a right of participation. In Singapore this was attempted from 1981 as a crime prevention measure. In my book "National Security and Intelligence Management" I have given details of these steps which we in India can also adopt.



[–]eldaisfishMaratha Pao 4 points an hour ago
I have only one question, regarding our western neighbours.

We (and the international community) accuse the Pakistani government and the ISI of funding, training and exporting terrorism to Pakistan's neighbours. I believe this to be true, given the deep-set culture of fundamentalism evident in Pakistan.

They (Pakistan) repeatedly accuse us of trying to destabilise Baluchistan. Since both nations lack an objective media, would it be possible for you to shed some light on the realities of this situation? I'd be interested to know what the government thinks (or thought) of these accusations.

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 9 points an hour ago
This is an excellent question which merits a long answer. When political relationship between India and Pakistan was good (when the late Rajiv Gandhi and the late Benazir Bhutto were the PMs) there were no allegations of one country interfering into the other. In fact, in my book "National Security and Intelligence Management" I have quoted 3 instances of Benazir Bhutto publicly admitting, even to an Indian audience that she was wrong in supporting her country's efforts in destabilising our Jammu and Kashmir. These are public records and cannot be disputed. It is only when relationship becomes adversarial, such incidents happen. Of course, I admit that Gen. Musharraf tricked PM Nawaz Sharif in stealthily planning Kargil invasion even when our two PMs (Nawaz Sharif and Vajpayee) were planning improvement of bilateral relations. That was possible only because the army is a strong element in Pakistani politics. That type of situation can never happen in India.

In my book I have also mentioned the direct admission of an ISI chief to his Indian interlocutors (during a track 2 dialogue) of supporting terrorism against India as one of their defence measures since they were afraid of India's size. Thus we have any number of incidents to prove why Pakistan is indulging in sponsoring terrorism against India. As against this, international community and international security specialists have convincingly reported that Pakistan's allegations of India's alleged interference in Baluchistan are only a smokescreen to hide their own policies in that state which led to insurgency.



–]AdultZygotewill fight for Ramona Flowers 2 points an hour ago
Hello Sir, thanks for doing AMA, I have two questions

Question 1 : Indian intelligence agencies were created using administrative orders without any statutory backing. Do you think it is time that they be brought under the parliamentary oversight, as is the case in most democratic countries?

Question 2 : Many provisions of POTA (and now UAPA) were criticized for being draconian. When do you think a law for the security of people becomes excessively tough.

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[–]VBalachandran[S] 3 points 24 minutes ago
I entirely agree with you. In my book "National Security and Intelligence Management" I have advocated giving statutory backing to all our intelligence agencies and also National Security Council for better accountability and oversight. I had also recommended the pattern existing in UK of parliamentary oversight.

I personally believe that we have enough law to deal with terrorism and communal incidents. There is no need to enact new laws. Unfortunately we are not able to enforce our existing laws and get convictions.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby Paul » 28 Jul 2014 19:53

Doval Sir uvach. Gives goo dunderstanding on how the global intelligence community has slipped up in the past 10 - 12 years versus Al Qaida. He is very update on the happenings in the mid east and Afghanistan.

He is also not very sanguine on Pakistan. He said India has not given even an inch to Pakistan's demands, regardless Pakistan coming in with Taliban or Al Qaida....and he said this in March 2014. More Hindus than Muslims have been recruited by Hafeez Saeed. In short it is the WKKs who are the fifth columnists and need to be targetted for who they are.



There is a world of difference in between him and the likes of Hamid Gul.


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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 29 Jul 2014 11:29

I have a theory about the bugging incident. I think the IB found the bug a while ago and they've been feeding the American's bullsh*t. Notice how now Swamy is now shooting off his mouth about an industrialist (Ambani?) being involved as well as 8 other BJP leaders also being bugged. The leak was timed before Kerry coming to India. It will put him on the defensive and give us more diplomatic maneuvering space, especially given our stance at the WTO. Moreover, by roping in an industrialist, I think Modi is trying to kill two birds with one stone.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 29 Jul 2014 13:51

Ajit Doval at the Aus India Institute: "It may be 5 years, 50 years or 500 years. The game is not over till we win".

Awesome - especially the Q&A.

This is a must watch. New members from now on will be asked to watch it first, and then only they will be permitted to post :D

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby member_28539 » 29 Jul 2014 16:02

RoyG wrote:I have a theory about the bugging incident. I think the IB found the bug a while ago and they've been feeding the American's bullsh*t. Notice how now Swamy is now shooting off his mouth about an industrialist (Ambani?) being involved as well as 8 other BJP leaders also being bugged. The leak was timed before Kerry coming to India. It will put him on the defensive and give us more diplomatic maneuvering space, especially given our stance at the WTO. Moreover, by roping in an industrialist, I think Modi is trying to kill two birds with one stone.


RoyG sir,

the way Modi ji has made an mockery of Khangress...I completely agree with you on this. This is a brilliant tactic...so long it has been that DC had a deal with a real Political Masterclass & I see them getting repeatedly outclassed from the day Modi Ji won elections. First, the shame of him being denied the visa boomeraged them & then repeated list of incidents involving US tragetting BJP. Very enjoyable indeed...I will keep my popcorn near during the Kerry Mahotsav :mrgreen:

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby devesh » 30 Jul 2014 08:10

Doval has good understanding of the global situation. he even knows that Taliban is coming back.

But I don't think even he really wants to accept the fact that vast majority of Muslims will simply sit quiet and do nothing when their coreligionists start killing kafirs.

he starts talking about 12th century history and all that. as if that was when Jihad was born?!?! does he really believe that?

what was the role of the "vast majority" of muslims in Jammu and Kashmir when Jihad was being waged on Hindus. any protest movements? any agitations for protecting their fellow Hindus? or for that matter, the recent issues rising up in Assam? or if we go back a few generations to the Khilafat era, what was the role of the "vast majority" in the Kerala Islamic massacres, fancily called the "Moplah Riots".

Doval ultimately is man of the bureaucracy. his vision will be limited to that. don't expect Modi to receive any truly game-changing inputs about the festering Islamic theologian-fueled expansionist agenda that is as yet "non-violent" and supposedly "theoretical" and "academic".

RoyG
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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby RoyG » 30 Jul 2014 08:31

devesh wrote:Doval has good understanding of the global situation. he even knows that Taliban is coming back.

But I don't think even he really wants to accept the fact that vast majority of Muslims will simply sit quiet and do nothing when their coreligionists start killing kafirs.

he starts talking about 12th century history and all that. as if that was when Jihad was born?!?! does he really believe that?

what was the role of the "vast majority" of muslims in Jammu and Kashmir when Jihad was being waged on Hindus. any protest movements? any agitations for protecting their fellow Hindus? or for that matter, the recent issues rising up in Assam? or if we go back a few generations to the Khilafat era, what was the role of the "vast majority" in the Kerala Islamic massacres, fancily called the "Moplah Riots".

Doval ultimately is man of the bureaucracy. his vision will be limited to that. don't expect Modi to receive any truly game-changing inputs about the festering Islamic theologian-fueled expansionist agenda that is as yet "non-violent" and supposedly "theoretical" and "academic".


I don't agree with you for the simple fact that he gave many speeches at VIF explaining the importance of cultural security. While he is bound the wishes of Modi he now has a bit more wiggle room with domestic policy. I have no doubt that he will ensure that India will remain intact. It will take some creativity but we will get through all this muck.

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby wig » 30 Jul 2014 08:51

a report on a methodology rooted in direction set down by pollster Dr Frank Luntz that is used by Israel spokespersons that helps them hide facts
excerpts
Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out explaining how they have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians, compared with just three civilians killed in Israel by Hamas rocket and mortar fire. But on television and radio and in newspapers, Israeli government spokesmen such as Mark Regev appear slicker and less aggressive than their predecessors, who were often visibly indifferent to how many Palestinians were killed.

There is a reason for this enhancement of the PR skills of Israeli spokesmen. Going by what they say, the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe. Written by the expert Republican pollster and political strategist Dr Frank Luntz, the study was commissioned five years ago by a group called The Israel Project, with offices in the US and Israel, for use by those "who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel".

Every one of the 112 pages in the booklet is marked "not for distribution or publication" and it is easy to see why. The Luntz report, officially entitled "The Israel project's 2009 Global Language Dictionary, was leaked almost immediately to Newsweek Online, but its true importance has seldom been appreciated. It should be required reading for everybody, especially journalists, interested in any aspect of Israeli policy because of its "dos and don'ts" for Israeli spokesmen.

These are highly illuminating about the gap between what Israeli officials and politicians really believe, and what they say, the latter shaped in minute detail by polling to determine what Americans want to hear. Certainly, no journalist interviewing an Israeli spokesman should do so without reading this preview of many of the themes and phrases employed by Mr Regev and his colleagues.

The booklet is full of meaty advice about how they should shape their answers for different audiences. For example, the study says that "Americans agree that Israel 'has a right to defensible borders'. But it does you no good to define exactly what those borders should be. Avoid talking about borders in terms of pre- or post-1967, because it only serves to remind Americans of Israel's military history. Particularly on the left this does you harm. For instance, support for Israel's right to defensible borders drops from a heady 89 per cent to under 60 per cent when you talk about it in terms of 1967."


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/co ... 30765.html

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Re: Intelligence and National Security Discussion

Postby satya » 30 Jul 2014 13:08

RoyG wrote:
devesh wrote:Doval has good understanding of the global situation. he even knows that Taliban is coming back.

But I don't think even he really wants to accept the fact that vast majority of Muslims will simply sit quiet and do nothing when their coreligionists start killing kafirs.

he starts talking about 12th century history and all that. as if that was when Jihad was born?!?! does he really believe that?

what was the role of the "vast majority" of muslims in Jammu and Kashmir when Jihad was being waged on Hindus. any protest movements? any agitations for protecting their fellow Hindus? or for that matter, the recent issues rising up in Assam? or if we go back a few generations to the Khilafat era, what was the role of the "vast majority" in the Kerala Islamic massacres, fancily called the "Moplah Riots".

Doval ultimately is man of the bureaucracy. his vision will be limited to that. don't expect Modi to receive any truly game-changing inputs about the festering Islamic theologian-fueled expansionist agenda that is as yet "non-violent" and supposedly "theoretical" and "academic".


I don't agree with you for the simple fact that he gave many speeches at VIF explaining the importance of cultural security. While he is bound the wishes of Modi he now has a bit more wiggle room with domestic policy. I have no doubt that he will ensure that India will remain intact. It will take some creativity but we will get through all this muck.


He is the de-facto HM of India. Rajnath Singh is the 'mukhota'.


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