Indian Space Programme Discussion

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 18 Nov 2013 09:26

Yes the IOR ones are good for future options.

For now if we need to separate civilian and military facilities for launches, Gujarat can be a good interim option. Proximity to ISRO centers there means it would be easier to duplicate a SHAR over there, to take the load off it as the frequency increases. It is as dry as some parts of TN. Was in the Rajkot-A'bad area a couple of years back during winter, and it was hot and bone dry.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Nov 2013 09:30

Bade wrote:If there ever will be another SHAR like launch facility planned, then it has to be on the west coast.

Why to follow US in every step, sirji.

Bade wrote:The monsoons and even more importantly the frequent cyclones that impact the east coast need to be taken into account.

He cites three major reasons. (i) Closeness to equator (ii) proximity to liquid propulsion centres in Mahendragiri and Valliamala (iii) Conducive climate.

One of the reason stated in favour of this site is weather. As per IMD, this site is less prone to cyclones - as good as West coast.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 18 Nov 2013 09:49

Certain laws of nature are universal and where did the US crop up in this discussion.

Why put all eggs in one basket.

With Kudankulam nearby and all the protests one saw there, what makes you think people there next door to it will move voluntarily elsewhere.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Nov 2013 10:07

^ True. At the sametime we can choose what is good for us. If cyclone/weather is the criteria then the site is as good as West coast.

Kundankulam is a different issue.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Nov 2013 00:14

Bade the Sriharikota site was chosen in the mid 60s after a lot of thought. The new site location is also after some thinking.

BTW Kudankulam protests are backed by massa otherwise they have no momentum.

Meanwhile would like to discuss if the govt and ISRO powers that be, knew Nambi Narayanan case was a bogus one that benefits massa how come he was still hounded by the establishemnt?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/you- ... 24994.html

Was it a slient CBM to US that they wont hire him back? And was this given in the late 90s and honored at a great loss to the Cryo program?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Nov 2013 00:39

It is news to me that a site has been chosen. There is a lot of political push for one site from the usual quarters.

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Nov 2013 11:36

excerpt from the Nambi interview

There is enough evidence. Right from the beginning USA was out to thwart ISRO's attempts to get the highly sophisticated Cryogenic engine to be used for advanced GSLV satellites. First they refused to give us and then when the Soviets came forward, they thwarted it. I and Sasikumaran were directly involved in getting the stage from the USSR. It was almost when we clinched the deal with the Soviets and that too at rock bottom prices, the case broke out targeting me and Sasi. In fact the Russians had transferred instruments and equipments of cryogenic technology from Moscow to Delhi in covert Ural Airlines flights. I was in that flight. It was exactly at that time we were arrested for spying against India ! Many international journalists like Brian Harvey have investigated and wrote a book on this. The Kerala Police and IB chiefs were willing tools in CIA's hands. Don't forget that it was just after this case broke out that the then IB's Additional Director Rattan Sehgal was given compulsory retirement after he got charged with spying for USA. No doubt the CIA succeeded through this case to thwart India's indigenous development of Cryogenic engine. For even after two decades we have not been able to do this.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/you- ... 24994.html

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Nov 2013 12:44

ramana wrote:Bade the Sriharikota site was chosen in the mid 60s after a lot of thought. The new site location is also after some thinking.

The only difference being that choosing was much easier those days.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 19 Nov 2013 16:37

Bade wrote:Yes the IOR ones are good for future options.

For now if we need to separate civilian and military facilities for launches, Gujarat can be a good interim option. Proximity to ISRO centers there means it would be easier to duplicate a SHAR over there, to take the load off it as the frequency increases. It is as dry as some parts of TN. Was in the Rajkot-A'bad area a couple of years back during winter, and it was hot and bone dry.

As far as I am aware of it, Gujarat will never get such a facility. Being so close to a hostile country, it'll be a comparatively easy and strategically important target in case of hostilities. The amount of short term and long term investment needed for such a launch facility cannot do with such high risks.

As a matter of fact, the entire west coast wouldn't be given much of a thought when making such a selection. As far as the Andamans or Lakshadweep are concerned, they haven't been thought as a possible alternative seriously. Even though the idea might sound compelling at the start, the logistical nightmares that would result in transporting components from Bangalore, Mahendragiri etc are more than enough to drop the idea. Maybe the situation could change 40-50 years down the line. But not in the foreseeable future.

The fact of the matter is that the new location (if there is indeed a new location..that itself is a big question) will be on the east coast along the coastline of Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu or Odisha. Even Odisha has very very low chances due to variety of reasons. So, Southern Andhra or Tamil Nadu. But the most likely location would still be Sriharikota, building a third launch pad and making use of existing facilities unless a "new" location is needed at all cost.

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Nov 2013 17:54

What was the reason TERL cannot be a second launch facility for heavy lift vehicles ?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Nov 2013 17:57

Gujurat may not look attractive now and I agree economic arguments will favor SHAR at present for any interim expansion. But there are several advantages that Gujarat has. One is the low population in areas of interest and climatic conditions. The likelihood of hostilities related risks are much lower than from extreme weather events on the east coast. One can have cyclonic events almost every year, and the monsoons do put restrictions on launch windows. Think of times in the future when we will have a viable human space flight program and would like backup options for year round capability.

A significant ISRO facility already exists in the state. I do not see why ISAC like facility cannot be duplicated there. It can be an exclusive military or even commercial launch facility and keep SHAR for core ISRO launch activities. All this is far into the future, many decades from now. But land has to be identified and set aside now.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Nov 2013 20:55

Six month old news
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/63143/F

ISRO’s presence as a premier space agency will be further strengthened with the beginning of the construction of the third launch pad at the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC) at Sriharikota later in September this year.

The launch pad is being constructed for the manned mission to space in 2016 and other programmes like the GSLV-MK III. As ISRO scales up the number of launches in a year, the third launch pad is bound to reduce the pressure on preparation time between launches.

The proposal has already been approved by ISRO governing council and is now in the design stage, according to officials at SDSC. At present, the estimated cost of the project is Rs 1,300 crore. The preparations at Sriharikota include construction of a new vehicle assembly building, mobile pedestals, umbilical towers, emergency exits, ground escape system, crew ingress and egress systems, safety bunkers, material handling equipment and related electrical systems. Work on improved cryogenic systems will also be undertaken simultaneously as the estimated weight of the launch vehicle is bound to increase.

Two landing sites are also being considered for the manned flight, one near Goa in the Arabian Sea and the other close to Sriharikota in the Bay of Bengal. Officials point out that the required site will have to enable transport of the crew to the ground as early as possible.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 19 Nov 2013 23:14

kit wrote:What was the reason TERL cannot be a second launch facility for heavy lift vehicles ?

Such a launch pad could only useful for polar launches. Yes! Geosynchronous and other types of orbits with low inclination can be achieved but at the cost of extra manoeuvres to avoid landmasses and hence extra fuel and lowered payload capacity. That was one of the reasons ISRO made the move from TERLS to SHAR when it did, with the future in mind. So, such a facility would be limited in its capacity and would not give the maximum return on investment.

Bade wrote:Six month old news
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/63143/F

ISRO’s presence as a premier space agency will be further strengthened with the beginning of the construction of the third launch pad at the Satish Dhawan Space Centre (SDSC) at Sriharikota later in September this year.

The launch pad is being constructed for the manned mission to space in 2016 and other programmes like the GSLV-MK III. As ISRO scales up the number of launches in a year, the third launch pad is bound to reduce the pressure on preparation time between launches.

The proposal has already been approved by ISRO governing council and is now in the design stage, according to officials at SDSC. At present, the estimated cost of the project is Rs 1,300 crore. The preparations at Sriharikota include construction of a new vehicle assembly building, mobile pedestals, umbilical towers, emergency exits, ground escape system, crew ingress and egress systems, safety bunkers, material handling equipment and related electrical systems. Work on improved cryogenic systems will also be undertaken simultaneously as the estimated weight of the launch vehicle is bound to increase.

Two landing sites are also being considered for the manned flight, one near Goa in the Arabian Sea and the other close to Sriharikota in the Bay of Bengal. Officials point out that the required site will have to enable transport of the crew to the ground as early as possible.

When the Human Spaceflight Program was planned, a separate launch pad for such missions was to be built in Sriharikota. But the mission itself hasn't been approved by the Finance Ministry. So, this launch pad isn't coming up until the entire Human Spaceflight program is sanctioned (the total cost of the entire program was pegged at 12,000 core rupees). As of now, ISRO has been directed by the Government to work on the mastering the technologies needed for Human Spaceflight.

And the highlighted part in the article talks about the location for the landing of the re-entry module of the manned orbital vehicle.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 20 Nov 2013 02:38

Does ISRO have the financial sanction for the second Vehicle Assembly Building at SHAR? I think that is a more pressing need than the third launch pad or a new launch site altogether. The assembly and preparations for launch take about 60 days, and with 3-4 months of the year blocked off for weather reasons, it provides a capacity of about 3 launches for each launch pad. Six in total. A second assembly building, and some changes in processes to speed up the launch campaign might provide adequate capacity for ISRO's needs for the next few years at least.

The third launch pad, I thought, was required not just for the human spaceflight program but for vehicles of the future UMLV family as well. But of course those are far out in the future, and hence there is no pressing needs for a third launch pad until the 2020s.

Meanwhile, here is a news item on the GSLV-D5 mission which seems to suggest some possibility of slippage in the time schedule for the launch. Not by a lot, but by a couple of weeks.

http://newindianexpress.com/nation/Meet ... 896275.ece

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Nov 2013 10:23

On a side issue, If I remember correctly, around Rs. 1500 crores were allocated for development of Semi Cryogenic Engine in 2009. From wiki leaks, it seems we also purchased the drawings of an engine from a CIS nation. Thereafter there seems to be a lot of silence on the issue. With our (and other) satellites hitting 6 tons (GTO), GSLV Mark-3 seems a little late and little less. I think we need to think of both:-

a. GSLV Mark-IV for 6 tons GTO
b. Simultaneously, parallely Semi Cryo for 6 to 12 tons GTO

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Nov 2013 12:07

Sridhar wrote:Meanwhile, here is a news item on the GSLV-D5 mission which seems to suggest some possibility of slippage in the time schedule for the launch. Not by a lot, but by a couple of weeks.

http://newindianexpress.com/nation/Meet ... 896275.ece

From the above,

“All the stages have been replaced, including the two S-139 solid fuel motors. This caused the delay.

Why the solid motor ?

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 20 Nov 2013 14:34

semi cryogenic engine is entering project phase starting with ground test development facilities

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 20 Nov 2013 15:04

SSridhar,

My guess is that the second stage fuel leak damaged the first stage (the fuel is very corrosive), or at least there were concerns about damage. ISRO would likely not want to take any chances with this launch - the stakes are very high.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 20 Nov 2013 15:06

BTW, the report mentions two S139 motors - there is only one on the launcher. Perhaps it is incorrectly referring to two of the three segments of the S139 stage.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 20 Nov 2013 15:12

Shankar wrote:semi cryogenic engine is entering project phase starting with ground test development facilities

any further details please in terms of when is stage development complete timeline and ground test.
Thrust for this engine etc.
TIA

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 20 Nov 2013 15:50

dhiraj wrote: any further details please in terms of when is stage development complete timeline and ground test.
Thrust for this engine etc.
TIA

2 MN is the target. It was mentioned in a presentation iirc.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 20 Nov 2013 16:43

vic wrote:On a side issue, If I remember correctly, around Rs. 1500 crores were allocated for development of Semi Cryogenic Engine in 2009. From wiki leaks, it seems we also purchased the drawings of an engine from a CIS nation. Thereafter there seems to be a lot of silence on the issue. With our (and other) satellites hitting 6 tons (GTO), GSLV Mark-3 seems a little late and little less. I think we need to think of both:-

a. GSLV Mark-IV for 6 tons GTO
b. Simultaneously, parallely Semi Cryo for 6 to 12 tons GTO

Actually you do not need semi cryo to reach 10T to GTO. Add two more L110 to each sides of GSLV MK3 and that can be achieved

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 20 Nov 2013 17:17

4 Vikas engine as strap ons
4 Vikas engine as first stage
1 Vikas engine as 2nd stage

and we have a rocket comparable to Long March 2F for human space flight.

What are we waiting for

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Nov 2013 18:33

Sridhar, thanks. That is a possibility.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Nov 2013 19:08

Problem is the required mass flow rate which is why a cryogenic engine is usually required as there is otherwise a sequence of diminishing returns as the mass geometrically increases.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 20 Nov 2013 21:20

Sridhar wrote:Does ISRO have the financial sanction for the second Vehicle Assembly Building at SHAR? I think that is a more pressing need than the third launch pad or a new launch site altogether. The assembly and preparations for launch take about 60 days, and with 3-4 months of the year blocked off for weather reasons, it provides a capacity of about 3 launches for each launch pad. Six in total. A second assembly building, and some changes in processes to speed up the launch campaign might provide adequate capacity for ISRO's needs for the next few years at least.

The third launch pad, I thought, was required not just for the human spaceflight program but for vehicles of the future UMLV family as well. But of course those are far out in the future, and hence there is no pressing needs for a third launch pad until the 2020s.

Yes! ISRO has cabinet approval for the construction of the second LVAB at Sriharikota. The cost should be included in the next annual budget.

And the third launch pad that was initially planned was to be for manned flights. UMLV is a long long way away.

dhiraj wrote:4 Vikas engine as strap ons
4 Vikas engine as first stage
1 Vikas engine as 2nd stage

and we have a rocket comparable to Long March 2F for human space flight.

What are we waiting for

Not happening!

Mk III is the preferred way for ISRO.

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Nov 2013 05:20

semi cryogenic engine is entering project phase starting with ground test development facilities

I have mixed feelings about this. ISRO should ditch RP-1 / Kerosene for it's LOX / Hydrocarbon engine and aim for a LOX / LCH4 engine . That sort of engine has a higher Isp than the Kerosene ones, (ie more efficient in Inglees), and potentially reusable via a Fly Back Booster (basically, after getting jettisoned, the booster flies back and lands like an airplane). That fly back part can come a bit later, but the engines and basic systems can be fully proven now, since we are starting with a clean sheet anyway.

ISRO should stop reinventing the Russian wheel here and using the RD-180 as a benchmark, aim to have a higher Isp (basically methane and higher chamber pressure with larger expansion ratios) , and have a cutting edge engine.

In the interim, we can do what the Americans (and Koreans for Naro) have done for Titan V. Sign up with the Russians for a 5 year contract for 10 to 12 RD-180 booster stages . Replacing the namby pamby twin Vikas (Weak Ass) 1st stage in the GSLV MKIII would be the first order of priority for higher payloads giving a far higher mass fraction to orbit, and then replacing the RD-180 with an ISRO LCH4 stage would put us right there on top.

And in this day and age with proliferation of LNG and LNG carriers, getting LCH4 will be far easier than RP-1 domestically (using special refinery grades and process) . Even the storage is ready made, at Ennore LNG port and the upcoming Shell LNG facility at Kakinada. ISRO just needs to have a small LNG barge (bought second hand /third hand from anywhere) to ferry some 1000 tons of that stuff some 50 kms from Ennore, just before launch! For Lox, we already have the cryogenic facility. Very skinflint , cheap, dhoti clad , frugal and investment saving onlee!

.

So ISRO ,JUNK the RP1 / Kerosene & LOX . GO for LCH4/LOX. Aim for an Isp of 400s

What will give you the edge is what your basic instinct of being a skinflint , dhoti clad Yindoo tells you. EFFICIENCY . Learn the lesson from Mangalyan. Leave the big Beefcake solutions to the Russians and Americans.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Nov 2013 05:33

Yes LNG is mostly LCH4.
Wonder if the RP-1 tanks can be changed out to use that.

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Nov 2013 06:53

ramana wrote:Yes LNG is mostly LCH4.
Wonder if the RP-1 tanks can be changed out to use that.

Well, the stage size (volume) will change for sure when moving from RP1 to LCH4 . LCH4 has half the density of RP1/Kerosene. The LCH4 tanks will be twice the volume of RP1. So the engine design has to be different from the RP1/Lox design.

In the current state of art (basically Russian designs such as RD-180), the setup is typically a single shaft driving the pumps of both the fuel (RP1) and oxidizer (Lox). The densities of RP1 and LOX are close to each other and so it is feasible to have a single shaft (basically same rotation speed of the pumps, impellers sized marginally differently for differential mass flow rates of fuel and Lox for the correct stochiometric mixture).

Now for LCH4, the density is roughly half of RP1 and a big difference to LOX. So, there will be basically two shafts, sort of like the LH2/LOX engines that ISRO has already developed.

So , starting with a clean sheet, you will leverage, the hard won expertise from LH2/LOX cryogenic stage and you will have a better starting point, than experimenting and perfecting a single shaft design like the Russian engines! Better use of what we already know to do something far better than the current state of art! That is the way to go.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Nov 2013 07:49

Finding the time and the money for space

The most important achievement of India’s 50-year space programme is the establishment of R&D facilities

On November 21, 1963, a small foreign rocket took off from Thumba, an obscure fishing hamlet near Trivandrum. This marked the birth of the Thumba Equatorial Rocket Launching Station (TERLS) and of the Indian space programme.

The two scientists who launched the space programme were Vikram A. Sarabhai and Homi J. Bhabha. Both were scions of rich and cultured families, cosmic ray physicists, and determined to do their bit for emerging India. Bhabha brought atomic energy to India and Sarabhai, space. In this they were supported by Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and later, by Mrs. Indira Gandhi.

The Sarabhai decade

Thumba was chosen because it is close to the magnetic equator. At heights around 110 km above the magnetic equator, certain processes occur that fascinate scientists. These regions are most conveniently studied using sounding rockets which, after carrying a scientific payload to a specified altitude, fall back to the ground.

For Bhabha and Sarabhai, TERLS was the first step in acquiring rocket technology: first sounding rockets and then bigger and more complex rockets, known as launch vehicles, capable of orbiting satellites.

Sarabhai was a man in a hurry. He got U.N. sponsorship for TERLS; created the Space Science and Technology Centre (SSTC) close to TERLS; established the Experimental Satellite Communications Earth Station in Ahmedabad; saw the first indigenous sounding rocket take off from Thumba; created the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO); sowed the seeds of remote sensing and satellite communications; completed formalities for an agreement with the Soviet Union to launch India’s first satellite (Aryabhata); signed an agreement with NASA for joint conduct of the Satellite Instructional Television Experiment; obtained a licence to produce the French sounding rocket, Centaure, in India; got Sriharikota island on the east coast for establishing a rocket launching range; flagged off the development of India’s first satellite launch vehicle, SLV-3; drew the road map that ISRO followed for the next four decades and then died in his sleep on December 30, 1971. He was just 52.

Dhawan era

In an inspired move, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi chose Satish Dhawan, then Director of the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, to succeed Sarabhai. Dhawan took his time to plan an organisational structure for the space programme which we still see in operation today. With support from Indira Gandhi, he created the Space Commission and the Department of Space (DOS) in June 1972. Then in August 1972, he obtained a broad national consensus on the main objectives of the space programme through a national seminar held in Ahmedabad. He took charge of ISRO only in September 1972.

Now, Dhawan was Chairman of the Space Commission, Secretary of DOS and Chairman of ISRO — all three rolled into one. Borrowed from the Atomic Energy programme, this concept was crucial to the success of the space programme. This arrangement which ensures perfect harmony between nation’s space policies (the commission), the R&D programmes (ISRO) and the budgetary provisions (DOS) still holds today.

Dhawan chose the hierarchically junior A.P.J. Abdul Kalam to lead the SLV-3 project that made India a space faring nation. Prior to this, Kalam was just one of a dozen engineers managing the SLV-3 project. “I was puzzled when I got the offer in my hand,” Kalam wrote later. “On the one side there were many experienced senior people in the organisation and on other side, I had to tap talents of thousands of engineers both from ISRO and academic institutions.”

In November 1963, when the first sounding rocket was launched from TERLS, virtually everything came from abroad. Fifty years later, in November 2013, when ISRO launched its Mars Orbiter, virtually everything was indigenous! Today, over 20 Indian satellites provide operational services to the nation in telecommunications, TV broadcasting, meteorology, disaster warning, and remote sensing. All Indian remote sensing satellites are now launched by ISRO’s own Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV).

But, perhaps the most important achievement of our space programme is the establishment of a string of R&D laboratories and facilities that enable our scientists and engineers to work at the forefront of space technology.

During the pioneering days under Sarabhai and Dhawan, people in ISRO felt that they were working collectively for a vital national enterprise in which each individual’s contribution was of paramount importance. By nurturing that spirit of individual commitment, India’s space efforts scaled greater heights.

(Dr. P.V. Manoranjan Rao retired as group director, Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre.)
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/f ... epage=true
E-mail: rao.manoranjan@gmail.com

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 21 Nov 2013 18:02

is devpt of a semi-cryo engine completed? article seems to say so

Together, we can have more space: Ambassador of Ukraine to India, Oleksandr D Shevchenko

After co-developing semi-cryogenic engines for the Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) launch vehicles, Ukraine is now keen on working with India on other space programmes, including missions to moon.

Ambassador of Ukraine to India, Oleksandr D Shevchenko, told dna on Wednesday that the head of State Space Agency of Ukraine visited Isro facilities in Bangalore and held meetings with its chairman K Radhakrishnan to explore areas where the two countries can work together.

“The two space agencies have agreed to launch a joint working programme,” he said.

He added that Ukraine has been involved in joint manufacturing of semi-cryogenic engine for Isro in the past.

“Now we want to identify other areas where we can cooperate. We are waiting for specialists from the Indian side to visit Ukraine so that we can start the projects by next year,” he added.

The future programmes would also include moon exploration programmes, he said. Ukraine is also interested in supplying power generation equipment to India and is keen to work on thermal and hydro power projects, he said.

MoU
The Bangalore Chamber of Industry and Commerce (BCIC) on Wednesday signed a MoU with Dnipropetrovsk Chamber of Commerce and Industry-Ukraine. This is the first MoU signed by Ukraine Chamber of Industry with an Indian chamber.

The main objective of the MoU is to work towards mutual expansion of trade, economic and scientific relations between the two countries, thereby rendering assistance to entrepreneurs, organisations and firms in the development of business relations through the two Chambers of Commerce.

On the occasion, the governor of Dnipropetrovsk Oblast of Ukraine, Dmytro Kolesnikov, also called on companies in Karnataka to explore business opportunities in the areas of information technology, aerospace, defence equipment, machine tools and heavy machinery, and Tourism.

http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/repor ... ko-1922564

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Nov 2013 19:05