Indian Space Programme Discussion

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 03 Jan 2014 09:57

nachiket wrote:A couple of questions for the Gurus here:

1. Can the S200 boosters be fitted to the GSLV MKII to convert it into a sort of MK2.5 with a lifting ability in between that of the MkII and III? The MKIII will take quite some time to come online yet and this could offer an interim heavier option, if it is indeed possible.

2. Why is the MKIII 2 stage instead of 3 like the MKII? I realize that its first stage consists of two Vikas engines so it is like having 2 MKII second stages. But wouldn't having the S139 or another stage before that be even better, to provide and even greater lifting ability?

yes it can be done, but who will do the aerodynamic studies, how much effort is required? how much time is required

Each launch vehicle configurations require extensive studies

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 03 Jan 2014 14:37

Indigenous Cryo to be flown on GSLV D5 flight on 5th Jan 2014.

Ulta Bucket?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 03 Jan 2014 18:00

SSSalvi wrote:Indigenous Cryo to be flown on GSLV D5 flight on 5th Jan 2014.

Ulta Bucket?

It looks that way. Its called Jugaad. Here we call it Jerry Rigged. Just kidding, folks.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 03 Jan 2014 18:49

"GSLV Mk.2A 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-37.5H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-15) / CS -
GSLV Mk.2C 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-40H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-15) / CS PAM-G"

prasannasimha: If I'm reading this correctly, ISRO uprated/upgraded the cryogenic stage, from the first launch with Mk.2. The stage for the August 19th aborted launch, and this coming one on Sunday, is a little more powerful than the engine and stage that was on the failed GSLV mission on April 15th, 2010.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 03 Jan 2014 19:57

It is the CE 7.5 Engine which is aprt of the CUS15 cryogenic stage.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jan 2014 00:15

it can be functionally jerry built but definitely not certified jugaad!

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 04 Jan 2014 07:19

They really need to hire some admen to do the PR work. Is that condensed ice on the top of the tubing (white with brown layers) or is some form of insulation and what is that brown stain on the bucket (Nose cone) !
They could have at least cleaned it up or photo shopped it to look better. I remember seeing the Shakti thermonuclear weapon photo - looked like out of the railway shed. One thing we lack sorely is in design and aesthetics in our products !

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2014 08:36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjG-4oR7JxI
Some good video on the Cryogenic stage.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 04 Jan 2014 08:48

Model from wiki.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jan 2014 12:16

Bade wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjG-4oR7JxI
Some good video on the Cryogenic stage.

Amazing video by ISRO, WOOOOW..

Solid presentation, excellent concise script, crisp narration. All the best to ISRO for Sunday's launch

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 04 Jan 2014 12:30

The video is good and the narration crisp but I couldn't listen to more than a few minutes of it. The accent is like the one on board Air India informing passengers how to wear their seat belts or escape the plane in case of an emergency. Not a *single* Indian I know speaks in an operatic manner like that - even the ones with an excellent grasp of the English language, both written and verbal. Who are they trying to impress? In contrast, many of ISRO's leaders who spoke after Mangalyaan's launch seemed more authoritative, earnest and down right inspirational.

Anyway, I have my fingers crossed for the GSLV. My deepest regards are with all those who have toiled for it.

member_24146 · Post by **member_24146** » 04 Jan 2014 13:27

Update from ISRO FB Page:

Live Telecast of the GSLV D5 launch on Doordarshan and Webcast through http://isro.gov.in/ will be available from 3:52 PM (IST) onwards tomorrow afternoon.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jan 2014 14:30

ISRO has begun the countdown for GSLV D5...
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... epage=true

All the best ISRO... Our prayers are there for your success.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jan 2014 14:36

Pratik, that Video is targeting a global audience... They specifically have chosen such a voice... Anyway, it was many degrees better than the droning voice-overs which we have heard till date..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Jan 2014 15:12

Excellent video.

Siddhu · Post by **Siddhu** » 04 Jan 2014 15:46

16:17 but no live web cast yet ????

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 04 Jan 2014 15:48

isn't the launch tomorrow

Siddhu · Post by **Siddhu** » 04 Jan 2014 15:51

lolz ... read Jan 04, 2014
GSLV-D5 Second Stage (GS2) Propellant filling operation is under progress

Thought it will be launched today .. my mistake

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 04 Jan 2014 15:53

^^^^^^^^^^^^
though everyone is loosing patience for successful launch of GSLV D-5 ASAP

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 04 Jan 2014 16:53

GSLV Mk.2 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-37.5H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-12) / CS -
GSLV Mk.2A 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-37.5H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-15) / CS -
GSLV Mk.2C 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-40H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-15) / CS PAM-G

"It is the CE 7.5 Engine which is part of the CUS15 cryogenic stage."

So was there some uprating of the stage, from the first failed launch of the Indian Cryo-engine. From CUS-12 to CUS-15. What were the modifications?

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 04 Jan 2014 16:59

"though everyone is loosing patience for successful launch of GSLV D-5 ASAP

"

Definitely. Very good chance of success on this mission. But also a possibility of a snag. Probably not in the ignition sequence. It's the behaviour of the Turbo-pump at 39,000 RPM for about 12 minutes, that will bear close scrutiny. All the parts have to withstand tremendous speed and pressure for those 12 minutes. Just a layman's hunch! All the best, can't wait but am also apprehensive to a degree!

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 04 Jan 2014 17:13

Can anyone state whether ISRO manufactures/fabricates the liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen tanks for the cryogenic stage? Those would themselves be pretty high end stuff, apart from the engine. Okay, no more postings from me today!

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 04 Jan 2014 20:31

Should not be a problem - we have a liquid oxygen capsule in my hospital that could send a small rocket up(LOX) in our hospital!

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 04 Jan 2014 20:39

tomorrow's successful launch will be the first step towards human rating of the GSLV. A very very monumental step where SDREs will go beyond the ionosphere/stratosphere. OT, SDRE Musharrafs will be directly over the Pakis but they count ki$$ it though.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2014 20:40

Dhoti shivering since apparently leak of 750kg propelllant scrapped the prior launch.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Jan 2014 20:55

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Can anyone state whether ISRO manufactures/fabricates the liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen tanks for the cryogenic stage? Those would themselves be pretty high end stuff, apart from the engine. Okay, no more postings from me today!

There are a number of such units in private sector.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 04 Jan 2014 20:56

Jan 04, 2014
Propellant filling operation of GLSV-D5 Strap Ons is under progress

Preparations for Propellant filling operation of GLSV-D5 Strap Ons is under progress

GSLV-D5 Second Stage (GS2) Propellant filling operation is completed by 18:00hrs (IST)

GSLV-D5 Second Stage (GS2) Propellant filling operation is under progress

Preparations for GSLV-D5 Second Stage (GS2) Propellant filling operation commenced at 11:48 hrs (IST)

The 29 hour countdown started at 11:18 hrs (IST) and is in progress

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 04 Jan 2014 20:58

PratikDas wrote:The video is good and the narration crisp but I couldn't listen to more than a few minutes of it. The accent is like the one on board Air India informing passengers how to wear their seat belts or escape the plane in case of an emergency. Not a *single* Indian I know speaks in an operatic manner like that - even the ones with an excellent grasp of the English language, both written and verbal. Who are they trying to impress?

Fully agree. The narration was grating to the ears and it was with some difficulty that I watched it with the over-wrought narration. There are tons of Indians who speak clear, crisp english, both professional news-readers and commoners alike. A simple newsreader-type person would have done fine. (the accent wasn't Indian, sort of sounded like Brit, but trying too hard). This is OT and dont want this to become a discussion but had to say my 2 cents. The video itself was good...there were good pictures of the Mahendragiri facility.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 04 Jan 2014 21:20

Varoon Shekhar wrote:GSLV Mk.2 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-37.5H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-12) / CS -
GSLV Mk.2A 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-37.5H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-15) / CS -
GSLV Mk.2C 4 × L-40H / Vikas GS-1 / S-139 GS-2 (L-40H) / Vikas GS3 (CUS-15) / CS PAM-G

"It is the CE 7.5 Engine which is part of the CUS15 cryogenic stage."

So was there some uprating of the stage, from the first failed launch of the Indian Cryo-engine. From CUS-12 to CUS-15. What were the modifications?

If I recall right, the failure of the desi cryo stage was due to the cryo turbo-pump(s) failing. The ISRO brochure posted by PratikDas on previous page says something about turbopump modification.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2014 21:25

Have we tried to clone the russian engine or gone our own way?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 04 Jan 2014 21:29

Indian aviation regulator certifies Gagan navigation system.

India's aviation regulator, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), has certified the GPS-aided, geo-augmented navigation (Gagan) system to service the aviation sector with the required navigation performance, the Indian space agency said Saturday.

"The certification will enable the aircraft fitted with satellite-based augmentation system to use Gagan signal in space for en-route navigation and non-precision approaches without vertical guidance over Indian air space," the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) said in a statement here.

India is the fourth country to offer safety of life, space-based satellite navigation services to the aviation sector.

The Gagan signal in space will bridge the coverage areas between the European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service (EGNOS) and Multi-functional Satellite Augmented System (MSAS) of Japan and offer seamless navigation to the aviation sector.

Developed by the space agency and the state-run Airports Authority of India (AAI), Gagan is part of the global navigation satellite system to offer precision approach services over the Indian land mass.

"The Gagan signal is being broadcast through our two geostationary earth orbit satellites - GSAT-8 and GSAT-10 - covering the entire Indian flight information region and beyond," the statement noted.

GSAT-8 was launched May 21, 2011 and GSAT-10 Sept 29, 2012 onboard the European Space Agency's Ariane-V rocket from its Kourou spaceport in French Guiana.

An on-orbit spare Gagan transponder will be flown on GSAT-15 in the near future.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 04 Jan 2014 21:57

Bade wrote:
Model from wiki.

That's the CE-20. It's the engine powering the upperstage of MkIII. I clicked this photo during Aero India 2009.

Here's the engine of the KVD stage we imported from Russia.

Here's the CE-7.5 which is used on GSLV.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Jan 2014 22:17

Singha wrote:Dhoti shivering since apparently leak of 750kg propelllant scrapped the prior launch.

Do we need Dilbullah jinx here?? Whatever it takes to get this launch successful!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Jan 2014 22:24

From the GSLV-D5 documenton ISRO site

Code: Select all

Events                                    Time                   Altitude(km)               Velocity (metre/sec)
GSAT-14 separation                   17 min 8 sec        213.51                       9777.7
Cryogenic Upper Stage burn out       16 min 55 sec      205.65                       9785.1
Cryogenic Upper Stage ignition       4 min 53.5 sec     132.96                       4944.8
Second stage separation             4 min 52.5 sec     132.80                       4945.1
GS2 shut off                         4 min 49 sec        132.20                       4927.0
Payload fairing separation          3 min 46 sec        115.00                       3392.9
First stage separation               2 min 31 sec        72.21                         2399.9
Second stage ignition               2 min 29.5 sec      70.98                         2401.4
Strap-Ons shut off                   2 min 29 sec        70.52                         2399.9
Core Stage ignition                   0 sec                  0.03                          0.0
Strap-Ons Ignition                    -4.8 sec              0.03                          0.0

ok, noobie question, so please don't laugh

The first stage which is solid provides altitude gain of almost 70kms, and that is while trying to escape the earth's gravity. However, the CUS provides altitude gain of around 73kms in outer space where the earth's pull will be less. How exactly is the cryogenic stage providing better capability? does it have to do with the size/propellants required for cryogenic stage as compared to the solid stage?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 04 Jan 2014 23:50

The flight path of the first stage is straight up. The flight path of the CUS is not - at that point the CUS+payload is approximately tangential to the earth and attempts to release the satellite into GTO by imparting sufficient velocity, and there's not a lot of altitude gain w.r.t the earth during this phase of the launch.

disha · Post by **disha** » 05 Jan 2014 00:10

^^ (Putnanja) For how exactly is the cryogenic stage providing better capability - Check difference between Vechur cow and Holstein cow :-p

The answers to rest of your questions is in flight profile., that is you do not take a satellite straight up.

To put a satellite in orbit around Earth you launch it at an inclination., so that once the rockets stop firing the satellite follows a parabolic path. In fact you are throwing a satellite which is falling back down to Earth. Except that the curve of the path follows the curvature of Earth and hence satellite is in constant free-fall.

If you notice PSLV/GSLV rocket launches, once the rocket clears the launch tower, it starts tilting slightly and if the dookhdarshan gets around to show a complete launch sequence visually, you will see the inclination in the trajectory.

That is, the sat is not launched straight up, it is launched on a parabolic trajectory.

Here is where the CUS numbers from your table needs to be understood:

1. Look at the CUS ignition and burnout - that is the CUS is burning for some 12 mins 1.5 secs and the velocity gain is from 4.9 km/sec to 9.7 km/sec. A delta of 4.6 km/sec. The height gain is some 72 km.

Basically CUS is giving an "inclined" kick to the satellite, just like a penalty shoot in hockey. The ball should not be going up, but "straight" above or past the keeper into the goal post.

2. Look at the velocity imparted by the first stage(s) incl. booster, it is 2.4 km/sec, delta of 2.4 km/sec. At the same time look at burnout (Some 2 mins 29 sec)., basically the first stage incl. booster burn out fast and provide some 80% of the thrust profile.

Like a truck carrying a car.

Of course you can come back and say why not come up with a single stage of Cryo? Well the tanks will be very large - just like Space Shuttle, the tanks are huge - in this case the tanks will be ginormous. Second, a staged launch vehicle is more efficient than a single state to orbit *using current designs* (TSTO/SSTO follows a different design, some of it still only theoretical).

So the lower stages *carry* the upper stage and satellite to a specific height and point in trajectory and then the CUS *kicks* the satellite into a small "window". The satellite falls from that point - an altitude of 218 km and some forward velocity of (say) 9 km/sec onwards - as it follows a parabolic path falling to center of Earth, the parabola is slightly higher than curvature of earth, that is satellite is keeping on falling or is in free-fall.

member_28041 · Post by **member_28041** » 05 Jan 2014 00:21

Two good books for people interested in Launch Vehicles.

1) Rockets and People by Boris Chertok who was the deputy chief designer of the S.P. Korolev Rocket and Space Corporation Energia.
This has a good detailed history of soviet rocket development.This is a four volume book.
This has detailed information of the soviet N1 launch vehicle. Interesting point is there was a planned cryogenic upper stage developed
but not actually flown in this rocket. Its name is RD-56. The russian supplied cryogenic engine(KVD-1) we use are a modification of
this(RD-56).

2) Energiya - Buran The Soviet Space Shuttle by Bart Hendricks and Bert Vis
A book that dives deep into the buran programme. Development difficulties faced during the development RD170 shows the difficulty in
developing a new engine for nations with even decades of rocket engine development.

A nice read on russian cryogenic engine developments.

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rd0146.html

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 05 Jan 2014 02:13

[url=http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 398570.cms]ISRO: After GSLV launch, PSLV C24 with IRNSS-1B likely in March.

Even as ISRO is gearing up for the launch of GSLV D5 from Sriharikota tomorrow, preparations are on for launch of the PSLV C24 carrying IRNSS-1B, which is likely in March.

"The integration process of the satellite IRNSS-1B with launch vehicle PSLV C24 was started on December 27. The launch is most likely in March," a senior ISRO official told PTI.

Since the integration is expected to take around 60 days, the vehicle would be ready by February end and the likely launch would be ready by February end and the likely launch would be in March, he said.

"Right now, we decided to stop the integration of IRNSS-1B with PSLV C24 for three days due to the scheduled launch of GSLV D5 with GSAT-14 tomorrow," he said.

IRNSS-1B is the second satellite in the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) and is one of the seven satellites constituting the IRNSS space segment.

IRNSS-1A was successfully launch on board PSLV C22 on July 1 last year.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Jan 2014 03:56

Latest update from ISRO
http://isro.gov.in/gslv-d5/d5-updates.aspx

Pre-Launch Updates

Jan 05, 2014
Propellant filling operation of GSLV-D5 Strap Ons is completed

Jan 04, 2014
Propellant filling operation of GSLV-D5 Strap Ons is under progress

Preparations for Propellant filling operation of GSLV-D5 Strap Ons is under progress

GSLV-D5 Second Stage (GS2) Propellant filling operation is completed by 18:00hrs (IST)

GSLV-D5 Second Stage (GS2) Propellant filling operation is under progress

Preparations for GSLV-D5 Second Stage (GS2) Propellant filling operation commenced at 11:48 hrs (IST)

The 29 hour countdown started at 11:18 hrs (IST) and is in progress

Jan 03, 2014
29 hr countdown is set to commence on Jan 04, 2014 at 11:18 hrs (IST)

Dec 28, 2013
The Mission Readiness Review (MRR) team and the Launch Authorisation Board (LAB) have cleared the GSLV-D5/GSAT 14 launch at 16:18 hrs (IST) on Jan 05, 2014

The vehicle is moved from the vehicle assembly building to the umbilical tower (the launch pad) in the morning of Dec 28, 2013

A 29-hour countdown is set to commence on Jan 04, 2014 at around 11 hrs (IST)

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 05 Jan 2014 06:07

Fingers crossed for the evening launch... Good luck to us all...