Indian Space Programme Discussion

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 07:18

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/446854/gsat-16-near-space-home.html

GSAT-16 near space home as 3 orbit raising manoeuvres end
Bengaluru, Dec 10, 2014 (PTI):
The country's latest communication satellite GSAT-16 is near its space home as all the three orbit raising manoeuvres were successfully completed today. File photo PTI
The country's latest communication satellite GSAT-16 is near its space home as all the three orbit raising manoeuvres were successfully completed today.

Indian Space Research Organisation said the three Apogee Manoeuvre Firings of GSAT-16 had been successfully completed and it was in the final orbital configuration.

"Deployment of the solar panels and the reflectors have been successfully completed. The satellite is in the final orbital configuration, ready to be steered to its designated position - 55 deg East," ISRO said on its Facebook page.

After conducting two successful orbit raising manoeuvres for two consecutive days, ISRO today performed the third orbit raising operation by firing the Apogee Motor for 289.44 seconds, at 11:15 hrs (IST).

The satellite will be placed in the Geostationary Orbit by December 12. Subsequently, its communication transponders will be switched on for in-orbit testing.

GSAT-16 will boost public and private TV and radio services, as well as large-scale Internet and telephone operations.

Boosting India's communication services, GSAT-16 was successfully launched on board Arianespace rocket from the spaceport of Kourou in French Guiana in the early hours of Sunday last, after a delay of two days due to bad weather.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby vina » 11 Dec 2014 09:52

Pah.. I don't like this WeakAss (Vikas) engine business , two of which are realised in the first stage of the GSLV MKIII. They are as old as Rahul Bose' ullah (who is 40, but pretends to be 25).. The WeakAss engines are a direct sibling/twin of the French Viking engine. While okay, they lack specific impulse and hence are lower efficiency and will need special plants to make those propellants (N2O4 and UDMH).

Time to go for LCH4 and LOX semi cryo lower stage with a 200ton thrust either single or two of those twinned into a stage will be fine for future chemical rocket stuff for the next 25 years. The sad thing is that the ISRO effort to get the Ukranians to design a semi cryo RP1/LOX stage for us looks most probably undone by the implosion of Ukraine.

Wonder what happened to that and what is the status of that. Time to junk the RP1/LOX stuff and get a 200 ton LCH4/LOX stage developed. That is more important than all this manned flight and mars flight rubbish.

There is money to be made in the commercial launch business. We should pick that up and rake in the money , rather than defocus and do schmalzy fancy stuff. Leave that to the Americans and Chinese and let them burn their cash on that.

Keep nose to the wheel, and clean up the applications , satellites and launching /commercial side of the business.

Later if Bade Mian types whine a lot, do some pure science applications/launches at a later date.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby devesh » 11 Dec 2014 10:25

Space colonization might not be that far into the future as we imagine it. in that sense, it might not be a bad idea to invest in knowledge development on the conditions of the rocks in our Solar system. Human settlement on mass scale anywhere else in our System can be ruled out for at least another 6 generations. but weaponization/resource-utilization might start happening long before that. so, these "science" experiments are a good thing. I suggest more aggressive targeting of asteroid belts for the orbiting observational experiments.

as for commercial opportunities, until cryo propulsion reaches a more advanced stage, we'll be in the 2nd rung after USA, Russia, and EU. I would say we need to be as ambitious as trying for a Saturn V level rocket. if we underachieve, that will still be above and beyond anything that we have right now, or will have in the near future (GSLV-MkIII). but Cryo propulsion here is key. if we can work out advances in that sphere, we won't have to be reliant on USA or EU anymore. or even Russia, for that matter.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28911 » 11 Dec 2014 12:18

Image

GSLV Mk-III rolls out to the launch pad for its Experimental Flight, slated later in this month. #ISROLVM3

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby juvva » 11 Dec 2014 12:42

Ankar wrote:
GSLV Mk-III rolls out to the launch pad for its Experimental Flight, slated later in this month. #ISROLVM3


^^ Looks like the roll out is thru lush green and dense vegetation, almost a jungle. Looks great!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28714 » 11 Dec 2014 13:23

what are those two smaller booster on the strap on boosters? are they for thrust vectoring during boost phase?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby shravanp » 11 Dec 2014 14:15

Those could be vernier boosters.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby mody » 11 Dec 2014 18:00

We still have a long way to go before we can catch up with the big boys in the rocket and propulsion technology race.
Our CE-7.5 cryo engine, seems to have the lowest thrust to weight ratio, as compared to all upper stage cryo engines out there. It is given as only 16.85.
In fact from the wiki link, comparing all orbital rocket engines, even the russian engine that we used with GSLV MKI, had a much better thrust to weight ratio of 25.17. All other comparable engines have a thrust to weight ration of more then 40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... et_engines

Even for our missile program, we are behind the rest in terms of solid propellants. We need to move on from the HTPB propellant.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby kvraghavaiah » 11 Dec 2014 18:31

mody wrote:We still have a long way to go before we can catch up with the big boys in the rocket and propulsion technology race.
Our CE-7.5 cryo engine, seems to have the lowest thrust to weight ratio, as compared to all upper stage cryo engines out there. It is given as only 16.85.
In fact from the wiki link, comparing all orbital rocket engines, even the russian engine that we used with GSLV MKI, had a much better thrust to weight ratio of 25.17. All other comparable engines have a thrust to weight ration of more then 40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... et_engines

Even for our missile program, we are behind the rest in terms of solid propellants. We need to move on from the HTPB propellant.


For upper stages, specific impulse and efficiency(thrust per kg of fuel) is more important than the thrust to weight of the whole stage. However, thrust to weight is important too.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby kvraghavaiah » 11 Dec 2014 18:35

vina wrote:Pah.. I don't like this WeakAss (Vikas) engine business , two of which are realised in the first stage of the GSLV MKIII. They are as old as Rahul Bose' ullah (who is 40, but pretends to be 25).. The WeakAss engines are a direct sibling/twin of the French Viking engine. While okay, they lack specific impulse and hence are lower efficiency and will need special plants to make those propellants (N2O4 and UDMH).

Time to go for LCH4 and LOX semi cryo lower stage with a 200ton thrust either single or two of those twinned into a stage will be fine for future chemical rocket stuff for the next 25 years. The sad thing is that the ISRO effort to get the Ukranians to design a semi cryo RP1/LOX stage for us looks most probably undone by the implosion of Ukraine.

Wonder what happened to that and what is the status of that. Time to junk the RP1/LOX stuff and get a 200 ton LCH4/LOX stage developed. That is more important than all this manned flight and mars flight rubbish.

There is money to be made in the commercial launch business. We should pick that up and rake in the money , rather than defocus and do schmalzy fancy stuff. Leave that to the Americans and Chinese and let them burn their cash on that.

Keep nose to the wheel, and clean up the applications , satellites and launching /commercial side of the business.

Later if Bade Mian types whine a lot, do some pure science applications/launches at a later date.


You are very correct. ISRO and Indian government are doing gimmicks instead of real work. How come these guys again need foreign help to develop semi cryogenic engine? Shame Shame ISRO and government of India for deploying mediocre scientists.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 19:46

kvraghavaiah wrote:
vina wrote:Pah.. I don't like this WeakAss (Vikas) engine business , two of which are realised in the first stage of the GSLV MKIII. They are as old as Rahul Bose' ullah (who is 40, but pretends to be 25).. The WeakAss engines are a direct sibling/twin of the French Viking engine. While okay, they lack specific impulse and hence are lower efficiency and will need special plants to make those propellants (N2O4 and UDMH).

Time to go for LCH4 and LOX semi cryo lower stage with a 200ton thrust either single or two of those twinned into a stage will be fine for future chemical rocket stuff for the next 25 years. The sad thing is that the ISRO effort to get the Ukranians to design a semi cryo RP1/LOX stage for us looks most probably undone by the implosion of Ukraine.

Wonder what happened to that and what is the status of that. Time to junk the RP1/LOX stuff and get a 200 ton LCH4/LOX stage developed. That is more important than all this manned flight and mars flight rubbish.

There is money to be made in the commercial launch business. We should pick that up and rake in the money , rather than defocus and do schmalzy fancy stuff. Leave that to the Americans and Chinese and let them burn their cash on that.

Keep nose to the wheel, and clean up the applications , satellites and launching /commercial side of the business.

Later if Bade Mian types whine a lot, do some pure science applications/launches at a later date.


You are very correct. ISRO and Indian government are doing gimmicks instead of real work. How come these guys again need foreign help to develop semi cryogenic engine? Shame Shame ISRO and government of India for deploying mediocre scientists.


You do realize that the cold test of the semicryogenic engine without Ukranian input has already been done and the hot test is slated for next year.If you say that these scientists are so mediocre - just think how many countries in the world have actually got this technology ?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby HKumar » 11 Dec 2014 20:09

Ankar wrote:Image

GSLV Mk-III rolls out to the launch pad for its Experimental Flight, slated later in this month. #ISROLVM3


Is this a real photo? I have never seen a rocket on a launch pad by its self. There are NO service or support or umbilical structures. GSLV Mk-3 has a cryogenic third stage, doesn't the cryogenic liquids need topping off continuously?

And trees all around the launch pad? how on earth do they get the rocket to the launch pad.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 20:18

This is the rocket on the transporter being shifted to the launchpad from the vehicle assembly building.It is not on the launch pad. When it is shifted to the lauchpad the service tower and umbilical cords etc are attahced.Cryogenic fuel is loaded just before lift off as a part of the count down.
Last edited by member_28108 on 11 Dec 2014 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 20:20

For eg

Image
Last edited by Indranil on 11 Dec 2014 22:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited picture

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby deejay » 11 Dec 2014 20:41

^^^ Saar, I think you made a very clear point with the big photo :D

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby HKumar » 11 Dec 2014 20:57

^^^ Yup - He did.


The crawlers at KSC are road transporters. The GSLV transporters seem to be rail based. is that correct?

GSLV mk3 mockup on transporter : http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/gslvmk3mu.jpg

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby putnanja » 11 Dec 2014 21:05

For this particular launch vehicle, if I remember correctly, the cryogenic stage is dummy stage. The actual cryogenic engine for Mk-III is still under development and won't be ready for test till late next year or 2016.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 21:16

Yes the crawler is rail based. In Kennedy space center the original was also rail based if I remember correctly.They later got the transporter crawler which looks like a tank.

I really don't know how to reduce the size of the photo that I posted.It looked small when I clicked on the image on my browser but is huge on the BR page !

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 21:17

When I see those rockets stand on the transporter crawler I always wonder how they just don't tip over during transport !! :)

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Dec 2014 21:23

I have never seen a rocket on a launch pad by its self.


Rockets are bolted to the transporter. They are blasted just after ignition - part of the sequence.

There are a few NASA vids out on YT, which show up-close all the events that happen during liftoff.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby rsingh » 11 Dec 2014 21:37

Ankar wrote:Image

GSLV Mk-III rolls out to the launch pad for its Experimental Flight, slated later in this month. #ISROLVM3


I that paint got washed off on the middle raket?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28332 » 11 Dec 2014 21:40

Prasanna,

I thought that NASA has always used tracked crawlers from the Apollo days. Russian launchers have always been moved on rail and that too horizontally. I too have the same question as to how these tall structures stay vertical though the crawlers move very very slowly. I don't see any stay wires to the top of the rocket. Yes, the rockets are bolted but it is very difficult for me to imagine those bolts being so strong as to counter the tilt of such a heavy rocket, should it ever tilt.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28332 » 11 Dec 2014 21:41

Could it be that the CUS are black and since this is a dummy stage, it is painted white? That said, why is the CUS black? Any particular reason like that of the Shuttle's external tank being orange.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby HKumar » 11 Dec 2014 21:44

putnanja wrote:For this particular launch vehicle, if I remember correctly, the cryogenic stage is dummy stage. The actual cryogenic engine for Mk-III is still under development and won't be ready for test till late next year or 2016.



you are right. there is conflicting information online but ISRO uses the term 'passive' in its photos for CARE mission. explains the sub-oribital mission minus the cryogenic engines.

http://www.isro.org/gslv-mkiii-x/Imageg ... cle.aspx#2

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby HKumar » 11 Dec 2014 21:45

PRajaram wrote:Could it be that the CUS are black and since this is a dummy stage, it is painted white? That said, why is the CUS black? Any particular reason like that of the Shuttle's external tank being orange.


If I remember correctly - its not painted. its only the primer. not painting saves a few tons of paints weight.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Dec 2014 21:53

Take a look at the bolts and you will laugh. They are barely there hold it down.

The CG is well within the base of the structure and unless there is a rather large earthquake it is not going to fall.

BTW, how do the Russians build their rockets? If I am not mistaken that determines how it is transported. ?????

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby HKumar » 11 Dec 2014 21:55

PRajaram wrote:Prasanna,

I thought that NASA has always used tracked crawlers from the Apollo days. Russian launchers have always been moved on rail and that too horizontally. I too have the same question as to how these tall structures stay vertical though the crawlers move very very slowly. I don't see any stay wires to the top of the rocket. Yes, the rockets are bolted but it is very difficult for me to imagine those bolts being so strong as to counter the tilt of such a heavy rocket, should it ever tilt.


The rocket-boosters are attached to a mobile launch platform MPL and crawler picks up the MPL from its stationary legs. Once the crawler reaches the launch pad, it places the MPL on its legs again. Lifting of the rocket is completely avoided. The crawler 'crawls' at 1-2mph in almost a straight path. Its a sight to watch the crawler with the space shuttle on it 'crawling' at KSC. The size and weight of the rocket structure keeps it stable just like tall buildings.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28332 » 11 Dec 2014 21:57

True HKumar. I just read that it shaved off 600 lbs.

As to the GSLV-MkIII, is it a passive CUS or is it another single vikas stage? I'm confused as to why there would be an engine bell if it is a passive CUS.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby HKumar » 11 Dec 2014 21:58

prasannasimha wrote:Yes the crawler is rail based. In Kennedy space center the original was also rail based if I remember correctly.They later got the transporter crawler which looks like a tank.
!



not sure on this. I thought the crawlers were being used since the saturn days. The space shuttles/boosters are small compared to the size and weight of the original saturn rockets.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby HKumar » 11 Dec 2014 22:13

PRajaram wrote:True HKumar. I just read that it shaved off 600 lbs.

As to the GSLV-MkIII, is it a passive CUS or is it another single vikas stage? I'm confused as to why there would be an engine bell if it is a passive CUS.



http://www.isro.org/gslv-mkiii-x/Imageg ... cle.aspx#0

The first photo of the GSLV Mk3 with black 3rd stage is described as a mock-up at a second launch site. I have no idea what a mock-up is or why it is needed. the 3rd and 4th photos show passive cryo engine being integrated.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby symontk » 11 Dec 2014 22:18

HKumar wrote:
PRajaram wrote:Prasanna,

I thought that NASA has always used tracked crawlers from the Apollo days. Russian launchers have always been moved on rail and that too horizontally. I too have the same question as to how these tall structures stay vertical though the crawlers move very very slowly. I don't see any stay wires to the top of the rocket. Yes, the rockets are bolted but it is very difficult for me to imagine those bolts being so strong as to counter the tilt of such a heavy rocket, should it ever tilt.


The rocket-boosters are attached to a mobile launch platform MPL and crawler picks up the MPL from its stationary legs. Once the crawler reaches the launch pad, it places the MPL on its legs again. Lifting of the rocket is completely avoided. The crawler 'crawls' at 1-2mph in almost a straight path. Its a sight to watch the crawler with the space shuttle on it 'crawling' at KSC. The size and weight of the rocket structure keeps it stable just like tall buildings.


Also to add to that, the launchers are not fueled when they are transported. When not fueled then their mass is pretty less. In the case of GSLVMk3 however the solid motors are fully fueled though

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 22:19

I think the Atlas rocket launch facility (Not Saturn) have rail based transport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Canaveral_Air_Force_Station_Space_Launch_Complex_41#cite_note-3

In fact it was the first rail line at the cape.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby symontk » 11 Dec 2014 22:21

skekatpuray wrote:Those could be vernier boosters.


I think its for thurst vectoring, I could be wrong too

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby symontk » 11 Dec 2014 22:25

vina wrote:Pah.. I don't like this WeakAss (Vikas) engine business , two of which are realised in the first stage of the GSLV MKIII. They are as old as Rahul Bose' ullah (who is 40, but pretends to be 25).. The WeakAss engines are a direct sibling/twin of the French Viking engine. While okay, they lack specific impulse and hence are lower efficiency and will need special plants to make those propellants (N2O4 and UDMH).

Time to go for LCH4 and LOX semi cryo lower stage with a 200ton thrust either single or two of those twinned into a stage will be fine for future chemical rocket stuff for the next 25 years. The sad thing is that the ISRO effort to get the Ukranians to design a semi cryo RP1/LOX stage for us looks most probably undone by the implosion of Ukraine.

Wonder what happened to that and what is the status of that. Time to junk the RP1/LOX stuff and get a 200 ton LCH4/LOX stage developed. That is more important than all this manned flight and mars flight rubbish.

There is money to be made in the commercial launch business. We should pick that up and rake in the money , rather than defocus and do schmalzy fancy stuff. Leave that to the Americans and Chinese and let them burn their cash on that.

Keep nose to the wheel, and clean up the applications , satellites and launching /commercial side of the business.

Later if Bade Mian types whine a lot, do some pure science applications/launches at a later date.


To mature a SC engine and keep the cost down would be a tough exercise. For all issues it has, Vikas has performed excellently well apart from two accidents it had during launch (both GSLV launches). With a SC engine, costs would be prohibitive. US and USSR can afford those since they used to launch 100's per year

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 22:36

HKumar wrote:
PRajaram wrote:True HKumar. I just read that it shaved off 600 lbs.

As to the GSLV-MkIII, is it a passive CUS or is it another single vikas stage? I'm confused as to why there would be an engine bell if it is a passive CUS.



http://www.isro.org/gslv-mkiii-x/Imageg ... cle.aspx#0

The first photo of the GSLV Mk3 with black 3rd stage is described as a mock-up at a second launch site. I have no idea what a mock-up is or why it is needed. the 3rd and 4th photos show passive cryo engine being integrated.


A mockup or boiler plate version is dopne to check for alignment structural integration etc before making the final model.This is done to prevent goofups

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 22:36

You can see the train and railway track here

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/atlas/av036/rollout/

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 11 Dec 2014 23:01

I find it funny when armchair warriors denigrate the efforts put by ISRO engineers. Do people really think that cryogenic technology is so easy ?Why do you think that it is such a closely guarded secret and so few countries are able to master it ? Remember Nambi Naryanan and the rocks included in the Russian cryogenic engines. Both Russia and the US actively tried to deny that technology to us even though some tried to appear to be helping us. Even the US relied on the RD180 engines from Russia even though they had developed engines in the past.The whole process is tricky and frightful with risks and failures and not as simple as some diagrams appear.Trying to shove tons of cryogenic propellant through a hole as big as a coin and successfully maintaining stable ignition and combustion a few inches away with temperature gradients of thousands of degrees a few centimeters apart is no easy task or our arm chair warriors would be designing and launching these things isn't it ?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 11 Dec 2014 23:54

ISRO is the most successful undertaking of the GOI. You have to learn to walk before you can run - and at your own pace. Only Fools scoff at such hard earned accomplishments. There is more to be done - and is being done.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Shalav » 12 Dec 2014 00:55

HKumar wrote:

The first photo of the GSLV Mk3 with black 3rd stage is described as a mock-up at a second launch site. I have no idea what a mock-up is or why it is needed. the 3rd and 4th photos show passive cryo engine being integrated.


Perhaps instead of asking questions which may have already been answered up-thread or in previous iterations of the thread, you should read up the archives.

Try a search on BRF. Why demand answers from others which you can find for yourself.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby HKumar » 12 Dec 2014 03:06

Shalav wrote:
HKumar wrote:

The first photo of the GSLV Mk3 with black 3rd stage is described as a mock-up at a second launch site. I have no idea what a mock-up is or why it is needed. the 3rd and 4th photos show passive cryo engine being integrated.


Perhaps instead of asking questions which may have already been answered up-thread or in previous iterations of the thread, you should read up the archives.

Try a search on BRF. Why demand answers from others which you can find for yourself.



Whats wrong with people? Is it so hard to be polite?

The original responder prasannasimha politely answered the question the second time. I don't see YOU participating in the recent conversations, so what gives you the right to barge in and be a d1.ck about it?

If you read my post correctly - I only say that I didn't know what it was. I never ask or 'demand' (whatever that means)!

If you had just politely pointed that the question was already answered, I would replied - 'sorry dude. I was in middle of another conversation and this just came up' . Instead you go about lecturing me. My advise to you - please make yourself useful by participating instead of policing others posts.


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