Indian Space Programme Discussion

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SriKumar
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 21 May 2016 23:36

^^^I am not talking about the Columbia disaster. I am talking about the first ever shuttle flight, early 1981. It landed safely (same Columbia). After the tiles were found ripped off, NASA set up some water cannons or something like that at launch to dampen vibrations.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 21 May 2016 23:52

That was at launch.and an acoustic suppression system was used.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Indranil » 22 May 2016 02:00

What are they going to recover? The spacecraft is likely to be traveling at speeds of about 350 kmph or higher when it impacts the water. All they will retrieve is a million pieces. They want to validate the hypersonic performance, ability of the shields to keep the internal temperatures below 50C, accuracy of the flight control system to autonomously glide the aircraft to its point of contact, etc. None of these require the retrieval of the parts.

Also, I disagree with Vina that we can forego the LEX. Autonomous landing is a technology which is yet to be proven in India.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby rahulm » 22 May 2016 05:07

From NDTV link, The 9 ton solid booster " has been designed to burn slowly to accommodate the vertical lifting of a winged body". So it's an uprated SLV3 stage with slower burn rate to reduce aerodynamic loads on the RLV-TD.

We are able to do all this fiddling, building on previous effort and improving in Space tech because its Indic-genious technology not licence produced screw driver giri.

SRE has already tested thermal protection and final splash down velocity of 12 m/s. I can't find any information on the planned splash down velocity for REX. SRE also proved de-orbit, guidance and control during the re-entry phase and recovery.

All the best ISRO, I hope there is a live telecast.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 22 May 2016 05:49

indranilroy wrote:What are they going to recover? The spacecraft is likely to be traveling at speeds of about 350 kmph or higher when it impacts the water. All they will retrieve is a million pieces. They want to validate the hypersonic performance, ability of the shields to keep the internal temperatures below 50C, accuracy of the flight control system to autonomous glide the aircraft to its point of contact, etc. None of this require the retrieval of the parts.
Agreed none of these require retrieval of parts. But if the thing was landed on ground, there are other observations that could have been made.

My whole point is that one does not have to forgo these just because it is a water-landing (which was done for what reasons I am not sure- that the runway is not made in time). One possibility is the performance of the heat shield and how it fared during re-entry in terms of heat damage sustained. If one suggests that temperature sensors will tell the whole story, I disagree- it will tell part of it but not all of it.
As for it 'breaking into a million pieces', this is an exaggeration. It would break into pieces, some large and some small. Some pieces should be large enough for some observations to be made (as mentioned above). This is a test and ideally the goal should be to get as much data as possible from as many observations as possible. As far as I am concerned, the test vehicle itself is a source of information (other than telemetry).

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby shiv » 22 May 2016 06:08

I suspect that they are looking for unrestricted tracking all along the flight path. Launching towards the sea would allow ships and aircraft and radars to monitor that. Launching towards Rajasthan or Gujarat may not be the most convenient way of collecting data - especially in case of failure of the first 1-2 tests. They have to plan for failure also and will need data for every milllisecond of the flight. Once a plane is down to less than 500 kmph the worst is over and it can be recovered in various ways - but what it does while it is travelling at Mach 3 or 4 plus in the upper atmosphere would be crucial to its future. The thing is going up only 70 km after all.

I guess there will be temperature sensors in various parts of the surface and inside the structure as well as attitude sensors. If the thing breaks up in mid air - the data would suggest why it happened - like overheating of nose or wing leading edges causing melting. And debris will not fall on land. If the weather is good - even optical tracking may be possible over the ocean.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 07:06

Also who would wantto have what is essentially a flying projectile tested over populated land all the more for the first time. ISRO does a dog leg maneuver to avoid Sri Lanka. There may be fuel for thrust vectoring etc and you dont want to have the first test crashing on land.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 07:10

Let us also not forget the total budget for this experiment is 95 crores. It is really a shoe string budget compared to other programs.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 07:10

AstroSat Support Cell (ASC) has been Set up at IUCAA, Pune
The AstroSat Mission, launched on September 28, 2015, has completed its performance verification and started Science Operations since April 15, 2016. A phase of guaranteed time observations for the instrument teams is currently ongoing. From October 2016 onwards, observatory access will be open to Guest Observers from the Indian science community. Observing time will be awarded on the basis of peer-reviewed proposals.

ISRO, in collaboration with the Inter-University Centre for Astronomy and Astrophysics (IUCAA), Pune has set up an AstroSat Support Cell (ASC) to facilitate the proposal making process and the use of AstroSat data. The Cell will operate out of IUCAA and will provide resource material, tools, training and help to guest observers. A website has been set up (http://astrosat-ssc.iucaa.in) containing a portal to the AstroSat Proposal Processing System (APPS), Exposure Time and Visibility calculators. The site also provides downloadable proposal assistance tools, instrument response functions, sample data of AstroSat instruments and analysis software.

Activities of the AstroSat Support Cell will include providing long-term support and maintenance of the APPS, running a help desk for proposal and data related queries, and organising workshops to familiarize users with proposal preparation and data analysis techniques. It is planned to hold every year two long duration workshops at IUCAA and several short duration workshops at different parts of the country.

A Memorandum of Understanding between ISRO and IUCAA for the operation of the AstroSat Support Cell has been signed on May 05, 2016.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Indranil » 22 May 2016 07:14

SriKumar wrote:My whole point is that one does not have to forgo these just because it is a water-landing (which was done for what reasons I am not sure- that the runway is not made in time). One possibility is the performance of the heat shield and how it fared during re-entry in terms of heat damage sustained. If one suggests that temperature sensors will tell the whole story, I disagree- it will tell part of it but not all of it.

Do we require to recover Prithvis or Agnis test articles to validate if they worked? Also, everything is happening in phases. Our IRBM/ICBMs have given us the nose designs and materials. These were validated with SRE-1. SRE-1 also validated control systems in a micro gravity environment. These were again tested with the human space capsule. In both cases, the articles were recovered. Then, our cruise missile programs have taught us about autonomous guidance of hypersonic, supersonic and subsonic articles using aerodynamic control surfaces to within a few mtrs of accuracy. REX-1 is testing all the above in one experiment.

However, we have never demonstrated autonomous landing within India (except on the NAL-LRCA test-bed). It was to be ported to Rustom-I. Once validated on the same, it was to be ported to Rustom-II. It was reported that RUSTOM-II's first flight was being pushed out to accommodate the same.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 22 May 2016 08:06

indranilroy wrote:
SriKumar wrote:My whole point is that one does not have to forgo these just because it is a water-landing (which was done for what reasons I am not sure- that the runway is not made in time). One possibility is the performance of the heat shield and how it fared during re-entry in terms of heat damage sustained. If one suggests that temperature sensors will tell the whole story, I disagree- it will tell part of it but not all of it.
Do we require to recover Prithvis or Agnis test articles to validate if they worked?
I dont know who 'we' is, but I know of no one in a discussion forum who can 'require' anything of ISRO. I certainly can not.
Last edited by SriKumar on 22 May 2016 08:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 22 May 2016 08:12

Well, I can think of one reason why recovery may be good, failing which it makes sense to make the debris unrecoverable - unkil, dlagon or Roos may try to recover the debris perhaps, to get some clue about how far we are in this game.

JMTPs etc.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 09:04

^ that will also be aprt of the game. I bet this will be sharply watched.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby shiv » 22 May 2016 09:52

Well considering the roaring international success in finding the debris of MH370 I wonder how soon they can find debris of a vehicle that is 1/100th of that size

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby disha » 22 May 2016 10:32

SriKumar wrote:My whole point is that one does not have to forgo these just because it is a water-landing (which was done for what reasons I am not sure- that the runway is not made in time).


Landing on water is not because of unavailability of runway., it is simple a safety precaution. You want to test it out on open oceans., since it is the least populated or totally unpopulated.

Once the control laws are validated., one can put in a set of wheels. In effect this is a glorified 95 crore experiment :-D., lets get used to it.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby disha » 22 May 2016 10:35

Hari Seldon wrote:Well, I can think of one reason why recovery may be good, failing which it makes sense to make the debris unrecoverable - unkil, dlagon or Roos may try to recover the debris perhaps, to get some clue about how far we are in this game.

JMTPs etc.


They do not have to assess any of that. Just the announcement that the most tough regime of hypersonic flight was navigated will validate that ISRO has mastered the technology. The next step is to operationalize it., of course major challenges still remain, but those are challenges that can be overcome.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 10:58

In effect this is a glorified 95 crore experiment :-D


It is an actual experiment !! Thats what even its name says.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 12:31

http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/ndtv-special-ndtv-24x7/top-scientist-explains-the-swadeshi-space-shuttle-launch-likely-on-monday-416767

Dr Sivan expl;ains why the RLVTD is not going to be recovered. The goal in this experiment is to reach Mach 5 so with the undercarriage etc this cannot be done and the ability to land will be tested in another experiment.The goal is to test through the hypersonic (Mach 5) to zero envelop. Adding landing gear will not allow us to do it (test at a higher Mach number) with the current configuration.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby nirav » 22 May 2016 13:49

Isro should visit this page.
They know nothing about a real TSTO or how to conduct an experiment and what to test.
Blowing 95 crores on crashing a model in water ?!
Must get Ayatollah kejriwal to conduct Isros "audit". :roll:

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby sooraj » 22 May 2016 13:52

This Red Star Had Scientists Stumped for Decades. India’s ASTROSAT Solved Puzzle in 7 Months

On September 28th, 2015, amidst much fanfare and excitement, the Indian Space Research Organisation launched India’s very first space observatory: ASTROSAT. The space observatory allows for multi-wavelength observation of various astronomical objects with a single satellite; optical, ultraviolet, low and high energy X-ray regions of the electromagnetic spectrum can be observed through the ASTROSAT.

In less than a year, the Indian space observatory has already impressed the scientific community with its exciting findings and observations, including the gigantic gamma ray burst witnessed by ASTROSAT soon after the window of the telescope was opened. Its latest observation, however, is likely to impress not only the entire nation, but the entire world.

Thanks to the Ultra-Violet Imaging Telescope on board the space observatory, ASTROSAT has successfully solved a puzzle that had left scientists the world over stumped for decades; the puzzle of the red star in cluster NGC 188.


NGC 188 was discovered in 1831 by astronomer John Herschel. It has the distinction of being both the northernmost and the oldest open star cluster visible from Earth.

Stars that appear red in visible light are believed to be cool stars, while stars that appear bright in UV are believed to hot stars. One star in NGC 188 however, is both: red in visible light, and dazzling in UV, a clear contradiction that has baffled scientists for years.

“Now, with Indian UVIT data, scientists have nailed the problem — it turns out that this star is actually a binary system, of a hot and a cool star,” Biman Nath, an astrophysicist at the Raman Research Institute, Bengaluru told The Deccan Herald.

These observations were recently presented and reviewed at a meeting of the Astronomical Society of India at Srinagar.

Annapurni Subramanian, professor at Indian Institute of Astrophysics says, “The evolutionary process of these 2 systems is being studied based on the data collected by the UVIT and ground-based telescopes. The ASTROSAT would aid in solving many such mysteries in future.”

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 16:34

ANI ‏@ANI_news 1h1 hour ago
Preparations are completed, we are ready for the activity tomorrow morning: ISRO Chairman Kiran Kumar on RLV launch

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby nirav » 22 May 2016 16:49

Hope they broadcast it live.
Here's wishing RLV TD and HEX a resounding success !

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Gagan » 22 May 2016 16:54

So everyone wants that thing to land on land. Great
1. Find me a sea side long runway
2. Ask the airforce to depute a big plane so that we can launch this thing off the cargo bay or the top of the plane and study the lower atmosphere flight profile. Do this a couple of dozen times.
3. Get HAL to design a landing gear - NLCA on steroids size
4. Get DRDO to design a supersonic control software of the kind the use on their UAVs.

Or

Bypass these steps and do a splashdown on a scaled down model, while still studying space to earth performance, maneuvering, controls, communications, heat sheilds etc

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 22 May 2016 16:56

prasannasimha wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/ndtv-special-ndtv-24x7/top-scientist-explains-the-swadeshi-space-shuttle-launch-likely-on-monday-416767

Dr Sivan expl;ains why the RLVTD is not going to be recovered. The goal in this experiment is to reach Mach 5 so with the undercarriage etc this cannot be done and the ability to land will be tested in another experiment.The goal is to test through the hypersonic (Mach 5) to zero envelop. Adding landing gear will not allow us to do it (test at a higher Mach number) with the current configuration.
Nice video, thanks for finding this. It gives a close-quarters look at the vehicle under assembly. As you mention, Dr. Sivan says that for the vehicle to land, they would have to add more complex systems and 'they could not have achieved the Mach number' they wanted. Video shows elevons in a deployed configuration; he also points the location of the thrusters on the side. NDTV got good access to the vehicle.
Last edited by SriKumar on 22 May 2016 17:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 17:07

Would not be surprised if all of these things can be transferred to the DRDO AURA and HSTDV projects as and when they materialize.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby juvva » 22 May 2016 19:43

^sssshhhhhhh


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 21:18

NOTAM

A1095/16 - EXPERIMENTAL MISSION LAUNCH ON THE REUSABLE LAUNCH VECHICLE TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATOR(RLV TD) FM SHAR RANGE SRIHARIKOTA WILL TAKE PLACE AS PER FLW DETAILS. LAUNCH PAD COORD 1343.9N 08014.2E NO FLT PERMITTED OVER THE DNG ZONE A)DNG ZONE 1 IS A CIRCLE OF 10NM AROUND THE LAUNCHER B)DNG ZONE 2 IS A RECTANGULAR AREA BOUNDED BY 1354N 08100E 1354N 08600E 1324N 08600E 1324N 08100E ROUTES AFFECTED IN CHENNAI FIR ARE: N571 W20 A465 L518 Q10 Q11 V4 V9 AND V11 CLOSURE/ALTERNATE ROUTINGS: I) N571 NOT AVBL BTN DORAM AND BIKEN ALTN ROUTE: DORAM-DCT-MMV VOR-DCT-IDASO-N571(BIDIRECTIONAL) II) W20 NOT AVBL BTN MMV VOR AND BODEL ALTN ROUTE MMV VOR-TR319/139DEG-53NM-TTP VOR TR357/177DEG-81NM -BODEL(BIDIRECTIONAL) III) A465 NOT AVBL BTN MMV VOR AND DOKET ALTN ROUTE MMV VOR-TR319/139DEG-DIST 53NM-TTP VOR-TR034/214DEG -DIST 54NM-POINT A (142225N 0800303E)-TR055/235DEG-126NM-DOKET-A465 (BIDIRECTIONAL) IV) ATS ROUTES L518 Q10 Q11 V4 V9 AND V11 NOT AVBL. GND - UNL, DLY 0130-0530, 23 MAY 01:30 2016 UNTIL 27 MAY 05:30 2016. CREATED: 19 MAY 11:51 2016

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 21:20


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 21:20

The polished up RLVTD

Image

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 21:22

You can see another unfurlable antenna behind.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 21:24

Air data sensing system that uses flush pressure orifices embedded in the body. Pitot tubes are not suitable for hypersonic flight where the heat generated can destroy them.

NEURAL NETWORK BASED FLUSH AIR DATA SYSTEM (FADS) FOR REUSABLE LAUNCH VEHICLES
Abstract
Flush air data systems (FADS) are gaining importance for use in measurement of air data parameters like angle of attack, sideslip angle, Mach number and dynamic pressure for reentry and reusable vehicles, advanced aircrafts, interplanetary space probes etc. These air data parameters are critical for successful mission management of the vehicle during the flight phases dominated by complex aero thermal effects.

Flush Air Data System makes use of a matrix of flush pressure orifices located on the nose region (or stagnation region) of the vehicle to estimate air data parameters. The surface pressures are sensed using highly accurate absolute pressure transducers. The multivariable relationship between the pressure measurement and the output air data parameters is complex and highly nonlinear. Different methods are proposed in literature for the estimation of air data parameters using surface pressure measurements. Some of the earlier semi-empirical model based approaches used to process FADS pressure data have experienced numerical instabilities resulting in momentary degradation in system performance.

In this paper a neural network based FADS algorithm is developed for a reusable launch vehicle technology demonstrator. FADS is proposed to be used for the flight regime from Mach number 2.5 to 0. Neural networks, which require large quantities of training aerodynamic data set offer a simple, flexible and accurate solution for such complex applications. Neural network systems allow for the correlation of complex nonlinear systems without requiring explicit knowledge of the functional relationship that exists between the input and output variables of the system. Further, algorithms with neural network techniques are inherently stable for the calibration of nonlinear data involving more number of independent parameters.

The pressure port configuration used in this paper consists of nine pressure ports located on the nosecone of the vehicle. The pressure ports are arranged in a crucifix fashion with five ports located in the vertical meridian and four in the horizontal meridian. The pressure ports are connected to the pressure transducer using pneumatic tubing designed to satisfy frequency and thermal response requirements. The developed algorithm is validated using calibration data generated from wind tunnel tests. Back propagation technique is used to train the neural network to achieve the desired level of accuracy. The present study shows that with properly trained networks, the neural network can be used effectively for real-time prediction of air data states during the critical flight phases.


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 22 May 2016 21:58

Image

DATA BASED ON 2005 PAPER

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby rahulm » 23 May 2016 04:57

Some tidbits from Pallav Bhargav's excellent piece:

1. 3 grades of thermal insulation used in the front area with carbon-carbon at the nose, weather proof tiles next and another near what might be eventually the cockpit glass area.
2. A new tech. "flush air data system" - the 4 holes in the nose had to be developed because normal protruding probes would burn off.
3. A decision has been made to recover the final config RLV at SHAR. Infrastructure for this, including a suitable runway will be created. Will they have a backup site just in case when the RLV is human rated?
4. A special interstage was created to connect the 'D' section arse end of the RLV-TD to the circular solid booster. This interstage will house some electronics
5. Final RLV-TD will lift ~ 10 tons to LEO - about the same as the GSLV but at a reduced cost due to re-usability. I suppose eventually we will have 2 human rated vehicles - GSLV MKIII and RLV.
6. FLP will used for launch
7. HS9 booster length = 9m, RLV-TD length around 6 meters. - total config length = 15 m (not sure if this includes interstage)

Dr Sivan was on a roll and about to reveal something interesting about the special zig-zag pattern on the black coloured tiles when Pallav cut him off. Journalists should know when its time to listen and when its time to talk.

Not from interview:

8. HS9 burn time is 90s. Uses a toroidal tank for SITVC
9. Mission time ~ 900s

HEX Mission objectives:

1. validating the aerodynamic design characteristics of the RLV during hypersonic flight,
2. characterizing induced loads during hypersonic re-entry into the atmosphere,
3. assessing the performance of the carbon fibre used in construction of the nose of the vehicle,
4. and demonstrating first stage separation sequencing.

It's ISRO's first winged body recovery. All the best.
Last edited by rahulm on 23 May 2016 06:19, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby rahulm » 23 May 2016 05:09

RLV-TD launch window between 7 am - 11 AM today. ISRO is aiming for a 9:30 AM launch. All times IST

The HS9 booster will release the RLV-TD at 50 km. The RLV will climb another 20 km before its descent.

Top re-entry speed ~ 5.7 mach.

TSS surfaces India’s first Reusable Launch Vehicle to take off today

Love this part of his description
".....the entire contraption with the winged space plane sitting on top of the booster rocket, will take off ...


India takes baby step towards reusable space shuttle today - The total rocket length is incorrect in this article.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Muns » 23 May 2016 06:09

Shuttle launched, looked like a good take off from news channels.
No other live feed that I can find.
Next 20 mins of Tele gathering are going to be crucial.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Muns » 23 May 2016 06:30

Satellite launch successful, according to ISRO newflashes.....

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby fanne » 23 May 2016 06:33

yup waiting.....

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby rahulm » 23 May 2016 06:37

DD and NDTV report mission sucessful

Video Scroll to bottom of article http://www.news18.com/news/india/isro-launches-indias-first-ever-indigenous-space-shuttle-rlv-td-1246645.html Looks like amateur video.

Now waiting for an official ISRO annoucement
Last edited by rahulm on 23 May 2016 06:45, edited 3 times in total.


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