Indian Space Programme Discussion

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 23 May 2016 13:11

There are different methods of analysis of the thermal insulation on reentry. The most important thing is the temperature within the capsule or plane so that is what needs to be analyzed. We already have the tile wear data with SRE1 and CARE. Also the heat shield is ablative so certain portions are expected to be burnt as a part of design. Some armchairwarriors here make me remember the armchair cricketers watching a match constantly critical without havingmade a ball ever touch a bat.
Last edited by member_28108 on 23 May 2016 13:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Neela » 23 May 2016 13:14

nirav wrote:
They do have the much vaunted "recover it and analyze it" data from the CARE module experiment. And they certainly would have sensor data on how the Thermal protection system fared in this flight.

I dont understand the need to be so critical of the smallest of things !

Think if ISRO says that they managed to validate xyz things, one can leave it at that.


Thanks for pointing out the CARE experiment.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 23 May 2016 13:24

In fact full validation of the tiles at peak reentry was done with SRE1 rather than CARE which was an atmospheric test. SRE1 entered from above the Karmann line and splashed down facing the full brunt of reentry.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Neela » 23 May 2016 13:37

From STS-107 ( Columbia disaster) released transcripts , we know there are many temperature sensors placed all over the craft.

http://spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts107/timeline/

08:51:14 a.m. NEW
OEX data: Temperature sensor 9895, located inside the left wing roughly in line with RCC panel No. 9, begins showing an unusual temperature increase. This indicates a plume of hot gas has entered the wing's interior through a breach in the leading edge.

08:52:15 a.m.
Second indication of normal entry heating; nominal rise in center line bond temperature sensor (2). Mid fuselage "mid" skin temperature; mid fuselage bottom center bond line temperature at x1214.

08:52:19 a.m. NEW
OEX data: Temperature sensor 9910, located in front of the left wing spar behind RCC panel 9, drops off line after climbing to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. This sensor was insulated and presumably dropped off-scale low when its wiring was damaged or severed by hot gas.


08:52:49 a.m. NEW
OEX data: Temperature sensor 9895, located inside the left wing behind RCC panel 9, fails after reading 450 degrees

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby nirav » 23 May 2016 13:45

prasannasimha wrote:In fact full validation of the tiles at peak reentry was done with SRE1 rather than CARE which was an atmospheric test. SRE1 entered from above the Karmann line and splashed down facing the full brunt of reentry.


Thank you for pointing out the specifics Prasannasimha ji.

The RLV in its full size will be a sight to behold. They could probably use the S200 from GSLV MKIII or maybe a bigger SRB for launch.

The design itself is unique, shuttle sitting astride a big SRB. Must congratulate and commend ISRO for taking this bold decision and doing something that no one else has done.

This successful HEX is just the beginning of a challenging RLV deployment.
Godspeed to ISRO !

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby symontk » 23 May 2016 14:11

Picklu wrote:What is the black mark on the water in the above image of launch? looks like a sub periscope but probably something completely harmless.
Thats the boundary marker between AmmaNadu and Husked Rice town (Nellore)

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby nirav » 23 May 2016 15:12


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby rsingh » 23 May 2016 15:38

RLVTD looks larger then 6 meters.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Shreeman » 23 May 2016 15:57

Forget window wipers, they have done away with windows altogether.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Anurag » 23 May 2016 16:37

Is there a video of the RLV gliding back?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby sooraj » 23 May 2016 17:24

Image

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Picklu » 23 May 2016 19:03

Thanks Symontk

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 23 May 2016 19:32

Is that a second launch facility at SHAR? I don't think I've seen it before...

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 23 May 2016 19:57

This is the first launch pad. Look at the base for the original bigger rocket launches on which the solid rocket motor has been made to sit.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby suryag » 23 May 2016 20:22

Have never seen this kind of a shuttle and rocket launch configuration, have always seen the unkil format faithfully copied by russies and Chinese, very innovative

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 23 May 2016 20:52

From ISRO's website

Today, May 23, 2016 ISRO successfully flight tested India’s first winged body aerospace vehicle operating in hypersonic flight regime.

In this experimental mission, the HS9 solid rocket booster carrying RLV-TD lifted off from the First Launch Pad at Satish Dhawan Space Centre, Sriharikota at 07:00hr IST. After a successful flight of 91.1second, HS9 burn out occurred, following which both HS9 and RLV-TD mounted on its top coasted to a height of about 56 km. At that height, RLV-TD separated from HS9 booster and further ascended to a height of about 65km.

From that peak altitude of 65 km, RLV-TD began its descent followed by atmospheric re-entry at around Mach 5 (five times the speed of sound). The vehicle’s Navigation, Guidance and Control system accurately steered the vehicle during this phase for safe descent. After successfully surviving a high temperatures of re-entry with the help of its Thermal Protection System (TPS), RLV-TD successfully glided down to the defined landing spot over Bay of Bengal, at a distance of about 450km from Sriharikota, thereby fulfilling its mission objectives. The vehicle was successfully tracked during its flight from ground stations at Sriharikota and a shipborne terminal. Total flight duration from launch to landing of this mission of the delta winged RLV-TD, lasted for about 770seconds.

In this flight, critical technologies such as autonomous navigation, guidance & control, reusable thermal protection system and re-entry mission management have been successfully validated.

ISRO acknowledge the support of Indian coast guard and National Institute of Ocean technology (NIOT) for the mid sea wind measurement and shipborne telemetry respectively in this mission.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby shiv » 23 May 2016 21:00

Shreeman wrote: they have done away with windows altogether.

..maybe Linux

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_22733 » 23 May 2016 21:05

:mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby rsingh » 23 May 2016 21:13

suryag wrote:Have never seen this kind of a shuttle and rocket launch configuration, have always seen the unkil format faithfully copied by russies and Chinese, very innovative


Chinese? That is news to me.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 May 2016 21:43

We may yet have to take that route if the final product is big...standing up a huge 50t on top of a booster is tricky

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 23 May 2016 21:47

chinese basically copy from everyone. Russian, American, Japanese or Indian does not matter to them.

The final product will be nearly 35-40m long and will probably required larger booster.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 23 May 2016 21:50

Actually they will NOT place it on the side - the initial plan for the space shuttle was also for it to be on top of the booster. The placement piggyback gave rise tothe foam strike phenomenon and other issues(including the difficulty to escape in an emergency). It was considered a flawed design even at that time but it was too late to change. Any country trying to make a winged lifting body design will place it now in this configuration(atop the booster) now. remember that this is a 1/5th model on an ASLV booster. Ti get a perspective see the base plate used to hold the PSLV at the base of the launchpad and you will see how small the booster is. A proper sized booster will be much wider and bviously longer..

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_29190 » 23 May 2016 22:13

Our "X-37" would probably be mounted on a booster, just like the real one. I guess it need to be around 2-3 times this model.

I hope someone in DRDO & MOD are aleady thinking aloud....
Last edited by member_29190 on 23 May 2016 22:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Prem » 23 May 2016 22:15

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -for-space
India’s Mini-Shuttle Blasts Into Elon Musk’s Race for Space
India could in future play a bigger role in the commercial satellite launch market. The global satellite industry brought in $203 billion in revenue in 2014, the latest year for which Satellite Industry Association data are available. Some $5.9 billion of that came from launches.
"Space is no longer a domain that’s dominated by the U.S. and Europe," said Ajey Lele, a New Delhi-based senior fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses. Asian nations are "now making forays," he said.India launched its first space rocket in 1963 and its first satellite in 1975. An unmanned mission to the moon that ended in 2009 showed water formation there may be occurring. The Mars probe beat China to the red planet after an almost yearlong voyag

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby ldev » 23 May 2016 22:24

^^
If it's mounted on top of a solid booster as in this demonstrator flight, how can it be 2 stage to orbit, as is claimed? AFAIK the winged craft will have scramjets, those can only be used in the atmosphere. No point in trying to light up scramjets when the solid booster separates at an altitude of ~70km. Unless, it will not have scramjets.....in that case you need a fuel tank ala US Shuttle.

I suspect that the configuration used for this launch is not the final launch configuration....various technologies are being proofed now....that's all.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby NRao » 23 May 2016 22:28

suryag wrote:Have never seen this kind of a shuttle and rocket launch configuration, have always seen the unkil format faithfully copied by russies and Chinese, very innovative


Orbital Test Vehicles (OTV), being bigger, are encased in a shell. Else the launching mechanism is the same - they sit on top of a rocket (OTV sits on top of two rockets). The OTV went up in 2010.

The Waverider also uses a booster for horizontal launch. But, again, the idea is the same.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 23 May 2016 22:32

From what I understand the winged body aerospace vehicle is suppose to be the first stage in the Two stage to orbit reusable launch vehicle and the RLV-TD is just a experiment to understand the concept of winged body reentry and might not be used for anything more.

krishGAgain wrote:Just for the record...

This is how the RLV TSTO is supposed to be.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 23 May 2016 22:34

with full scale size and payloads I think we need to move to conventional shuttle design --- or else it will tremendous load on the single booster--- this experiment is more to do with the reentry validation then to launching options in my honest opinion

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby NRao » 23 May 2016 22:55

Very elegant solution. Nice.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 23 May 2016 23:01

^^ Not necessarily. In fact there have been designs with the orbiter sitting on the booster.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 24 May 2016 02:01

Some info on what propulsion was used in the second stage, after the first stage solid booster burnt out, would be nice for the general layperson!

Wiki says something about 'powered cruise flight' , 'air breathing' et al. The layman may know that the scramjet engine was not used, or that it was in 'dummy' mode. But beyond that, basically nothing!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 May 2016 02:08

Inertia

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby RonyKJ » 24 May 2016 03:02

Read in a news report on Dawn, from AFP, quoting Dr Sivan as saying that they have located the spot
at which the RLV-TD is floating on the sea and that it had a soft landing and did not break
into pieces.
Wonder if this is true and if so, why none of the Indian news media didn't report it.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby arshyam » 24 May 2016 03:08

^^ If so, I hope they retrieve it, it would be a nice addition to the Space museum in Thiruvananthapuram in the future.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby RoyG » 24 May 2016 03:32

suryag wrote:Have never seen this kind of a shuttle and rocket launch configuration, have always seen the unkil format faithfully copied by russies and Chinese, very innovative


It was first done by the Americans to validate space shuttle design. Looks 90% similar.

This is actually very strategic in the sense that w/ can stuff some sensitive payloads into it.

X-37 was satellite snooping.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby ldev » 24 May 2016 03:40

RonyKJ wrote:Read in a news report on Dawn, from AFP, quoting Dr Sivan as saying that they have located the spot
at which the RLV-TD is floating on the sea and that it had a soft landing and did not break
into pieces.
Wonder if this is true and if so, why none of the Indian news media didn't report it.


India's budget mini space shuttle blasts off

K. Sivan, a scientist involved in the latest project, said the seven-metre (23-foot) long shuttle survived the test flight, and scientists hope subsequent models six times as big, to be built over the next decade, will glide safely back to land.

"We have located the place where the vehicle is floating. The landing was soft and the vehicle did not break," Sivan told AFP.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby rahulm » 24 May 2016 03:57

I found the following useful (they don't have any complicated weird Greek symbols aka mathematical equations):

Returning from space:Re-entry

See How It Flies Probably, too basic for BRF Gyanis but was useful for me.

Probably, hydroplaned nicely and came to a halt. That's a commendable feat. It would be tough to retrieve since they have not planned for it. Does it even have rated lifting points?

High res pics would be nice. Then scuttle it so nobody else can claim it and have a peek.
Last edited by rahulm on 24 May 2016 04:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Shankas » 24 May 2016 04:01

"We have located the place where the vehicle is floating. The landing was soft and the vehicle did not break," Sivan told AFP.


If true, I hope we get to see images of the retrieval from sea. Maybe there is even a GoPro dashcam clip of the soft landing. One can hope and wish...

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 24 May 2016 05:09

rahulm wrote:High res pics would be nice. Then scuttle it so nobody else can claim it and have a peek.
If it is still floating, my friend, you just grab it and bring it :) :). There is no 'scuttling'. Too valuable.
Surprising that no desi sources seem to report this, though.

Found this. IANS also has an article on the same (but it is a 'login-only' article).
This quotes 'a senior ISRO official' though, and not Dr. K. Sivan.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 448063.ece

Two ships, including Indian coast guard ship and another belonging to Chennai-based National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT), were stationed 25 km away from the splashdown spot tracking the signal from the vehicle and taking wind measurements. This helped ISRO officials to successfully track the flight from the ground stations at Sriharikota.

Sources told the Express that a coast guard helicopter which was employed by the ISRO located the RLV-TD floating in the sea around 20 minutes after the splashdown. The coast guard reportedly took the pictures and sources said the vehicle didn’t suffer major damage as against the popular view that the winged body will disintegrate at the point of touchdown.

“It would have been recovered, if planned. Since the mission didn’t involve recovery as one of the objectives, the vehicle will die the natural death. We were told by coast guard personnel onboard the helicopter that the RLV-TD was in one piece and floating. They also informed that there were strong tides threatening to drown it,” a senior ISRO official told Express.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 24 May 2016 05:45

The fact that it was found floating shows that the black silica tile underbelly, and whatever they used for adhesion, survived expansion, quenching and the shearing force of the touchdown on water, or enough of it survived to allow over 20 minutes of floating. Very encouraging for those working in material science.

The jingo cries out for turbine blades using these materials in, at least, smaller applications like Nirbhay cruise missile engines.


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