Indian Space Programme Discussion

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Indranil »

Quite a few of you have confused an experimental set up for the final configuration. In this experiment, the RLV-TD sits on top of the booster because it is not powered.

The RLV-TD is a technology feeder to the first stage of a TSTO system. This first stage will be propelled to supersonic speeds using semi-cryogenic engines. At this point, the SC engines will be cut off and the Dual Mode Ramjet (DMRJ) engine will kick in. The DMRJ is nothing but a scramjet which can also work in a wider range of the speeds including those of a Ramjet. This engine is currently being tested in ISRO's ATV program. Because it is air-breathing, there will be no need to carry oxidizer for its operation of the engine. The engine is supposed to power the craft to about 50 km and then coast to about 100-110 kms, at which point it separates and flies back to earth culminating in a conventional landing.

The second stage powered by a cryogenic engine then takes over and places the satellite(s) into orbit. Finally, the second stage de-orbits and returns to earth. It is decelerated using parachutes and makes a soft landing using airbags.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by rahulm »

ISRO's ultimate goal is a re-usable SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit) aka AVATAR . Horizontal take off horizontal landing.

SSTO is too far into the future. So, TSTO (Two Stage To Orbit) is an intermediate step. Verstial take off - 1st stage horizontal landing, 2nd stage ??

Final TSTO config:

Stage 1: The winged body will be the first stage. In yesterday's RLV-TD HEX the scaled down winged body was the 2nd stage. Yesterday test was arse about because RLV-TD is needed to prove technologies

However, in ISRO's final TSTO config, the winged body will be the first stage, so there is no question of a huge winged body riding atop a booster rocket

Stage 2: Orbiter/payload stage and can also carry the ISRO crew module.

There is nothing stopping ISRO from flying the winged body alone without the second stage.

As usual, thank tarmak.
This is my take anyway.

edit: Ok. Indranail has already said it.
Last edited by rahulm on 24 May 2016 05:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Indranil »

SriKumar wrote:
rahulm wrote:High res pics would be nice. Then scuttle it so nobody else can claim it and have a peek.
If it is still floating, my friend, you just grab it and bring it :) :). There is no 'scuttling'. Too valuable.
Surprising that no desi sources seem to report this, though.

Found this. IANS also has an article on the same (but it is a 'login-only' article).
This quotes 'a senior ISRO official' though, and not Dr. K. Sivan.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 448063.ece
Two ships, including Indian coast guard ship and another belonging to Chennai-based National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT), were stationed 25 km away from the splashdown spot tracking the signal from the vehicle and taking wind measurements. This helped ISRO officials to successfully track the flight from the ground stations at Sriharikota.

Sources told the Express that a coast guard helicopter which was employed by the ISRO located the RLV-TD floating in the sea around 20 minutes after the splashdown. The coast guard reportedly took the pictures and sources said the vehicle didn’t suffer major damage as against the popular view that the winged body will disintegrate at the point of touchdown.

“It would have been recovered, if planned. Since the mission didn’t involve recovery as one of the objectives, the vehicle will die the natural death. We were told by coast guard personnel onboard the helicopter that the RLV-TD was in one piece and floating. They also informed that there were strong tides threatening to drown it,” a senior ISRO official told Express.
Wow! Really boggles my mind.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by rahulm »

It is unusual for a rocket stage to have multiple modes of propulsion. The ISRO TSTO will have will have semi-cryo and scramjet.

The scramjet is being developed through the Air Breathing Propulsion Project (ABPP).

From 2015 annual report:
Air Breathing Propulsion along with Reusable Launch Vehicle technology is the key for low cost access
to Space. Unlike conventional rockets, Air Breathing Propulsion System makes use of atmospheric
oxygen for combustion thus resulting in substantial improvement in payload fraction and reduction in
overall cost. Though the developmental activities towards dual mode ramjet engines and its associated
technologies have been initiated, the present focus is on development of scramjet engine and flight
testing the same through a cost effective method using Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV).
Towards Scramjet flight testing, Air Breathing Propulsion modules, namely, Scramjet Engine and
Fuel Feed System are being realised. Structural qualification of Engine frame structures has been
successfully completed. Various sub-systems for flight i.e., engine frame structure, air intake cowl
opening mechanism, pilot flame ignition unit, engine fuel feed unit and avionics packages, have been
realised. Trajectory study integrating the three phases of scramjet engine testing has been carried out.
The Advanced Technology Vehicle flight carrying active scramjet engine is targeted in the first half of
2015.

Activities relating to mechanical, civil and instrumentation for the establishment of Scramjet Propulsion
Test Facility have been completed except the ethanol burned air heater which is in the final stages of
realisation.
The ABPP test seems to be delayed. The SCE 200 LOX-Kerosine semi-cryo engine is also under development. Two critical first stage propulsion tech. are still being developed. Too much critical propulsive tech on the critical path.Maybe, ISRO will pull if off on time this time.

ISRO is using external facilities to test SCE 200 while its own at Mahendragiri are being built.

The LEX experiment will use a turbofan to land the winged body on a runway. I can't find any details on the turbofan.

I suspect the CARE/CREW module will be human rated first. The winged body might follow later. We should not call it a space shuttle because its creates an association with that vehicle. the TSTO is a clever Indic solution by brilliant ISRO scientists. The solution is smart enough so we shouldn't need to derive credibility through association (with the STS) as most Indian news agencies are doing.

The space shuttle had all sort of compromises to make it a multi mission vehicle.

Since, the winged body will be the 1st stage, ISRO will face challenges to protect the TPS from lift off debris.
Last edited by rahulm on 24 May 2016 06:41, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by disha »

Prithwiraj wrote:with full scale size and payloads I think we need to move to conventional shuttle design --- or else it will tremendous load on the single booster--- this experiment is more to do with the reentry validation then to launching options in my honest opinion
Definitely this experiment is more to do with re-entry validation!

Regarding your concern about:
or else it will tremendous load on the single booster---
On current, GSLV-DII - some 90000 kg (or 90 tonnes) is sitting atop the booster with some additional 50000 kg (or 50 tonnes) is hugging its sides. If this is not tremendous load on the single booster - then what is?

Saturn V had some 650000 Kgs (or 650 tonnes) sitting on the stage 1 booster.

So your concerns about tremendous load on the single booster is misplaced.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by disha »

ISRO as has been pointed out is working on multiple technologies., including scramjet. This gives ISRO designers choice on assembling a mission just like assembling lego bricks (well not that simple, but the idea)

For the TSTO., the final profile is not yet decided. The second stage to orbit may well come back with retro rockets or parachutes and air bags and land on its legs. Or it may still be a winged shuttle. A smaller shuttle for a different payload. But again I think the former is more likely than later. If it is later, then I will not be surprised if it has the scramjet engine (that is the second stage has the scramjet engine to gather more delta-V and a final burn to raise itself in orbit., something like skip, skip and jump).

The current RLV experiment though was for as stated by ISRO.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

What are the military applications of this RLV as demonstrated? (not an extrapolation or further development of it).
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Singha »

would have been great if they tied a rope around it and dragged it back like a large fish to the shore. not for science but a truimphant display in some museum in chennai.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Singha »

sanjaykumar wrote:What are the military applications of this RLV as demonstrated? (not an extrapolation or further development of it).
this thing coasted up to 65km height.

the shourya uses solid fuel rocket to do around mach5 at 40km ceiling (120,000 feet)

maybe with sporadic fires of a engine it can do a 'wavy' trajectory along the upper atmosphere , with X thrusters erratically moving it sideways and up and down to make intercepts more difficult.

the current large ABM interceptors can however reach up to 150km like Thaad ... so 65km @ mach5 is no safety if you are tracked whether from ground or missile.

the Mach20-23 ICBM RV coming from 1000km ceiling continues to be the big dog of the dung heap . nobody has yet an answer for that. crude, simple and deadly
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

Singha wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:What are the military applications of this RLV as demonstrated? (not an extrapolation or further development of it).
this thing coasted up to 65km height.

the shourya uses solid fuel rocket to do around mach5 at 40km ceiling (120,000 feet)

maybe with sporadic fires of a engine it can do a 'wavy' trajectory along the upper atmosphere , with X thrusters erratically moving it sideways and up and down to make intercepts more difficult.

the current large ABM interceptors can however reach up to 150km like Thaad ... so 65km @ mach5 is no safety if you are tracked whether from ground or missile.

the Mach20-23 ICBM RV coming from 1000km ceiling continues to be the big dog of the dung heap . nobody has yet an answer for that. crude, simple and deadly
I was going to say that the military application of the RLV-TD as it is, without extrapolation or further development, is "Look, Eagle!"

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by hnair »

:D Finally an ass-cam Video that should end the decade long :(( in this thread

ISRO FB Video

(gawd! now I understand why the elders were chuckling, when the youngsters went off to SHAR for this one)

btw, the whining from the gora and paki riff-raff is peaking to a crescendo..... just search for ISRO shuttle in google news and go to ANY comments section :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by sastri »

RLV-TD vs Dyna-Soar

The artist impression of Dyna-Soar mated on top of titan boosters is similar to RLV-TD and HS-9 booster.

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by juvva »

IIRC, AVATAR is a DRDO project, without any links to ISRO.

According to Wiki. it was only a study project in hibernation since 2001.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%28spacecraft%29
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by juvva »

hnair wrote::D Finally an ass-cam Video that should end the decade long :(( in this thread

ISRO FB Video

(gawd! now I understand why the elders were chuckling, when the youngsters went off to SHAR for this one)

btw, the whining from the gora and paki riff-raff is peaking to a crescendo..... just search for ISRO shuttle in google news and go to ANY comments section :rotfl:
Wow! thanks for sharing.
Quiet good resolution, we can see the control surfaces moving to hold course, pyro. separation was quiet a bang!, and the view of the booster falling and toppling is icing on the cake.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by abhijitm »

If there was a chance to recover the shuttle then ISRO should have attempted it, even though it wasnt planned. The shuttle could be a valuable museum piece inspiring the generations to come.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Apples and oranges: Why comparing India’s reusable launch vehicle with the space shuttle is totally out of place - Kiran Krishnan Nair, The Space Review

Surprised that the article found its way so quickly !
On May 23, India’s space agency, ISRO, successfully conducted a technology demonstration test of its proposed reusable launch vehicle (RLV). The country is justifiably proud about it, and the news is received in India with great exultation and celebration. Prior to the launch, the press exulted in the belief that “India's own Space Shuttle would be ready by mid-May” or that this would be ISRO’s big “Hanuman Leap” to making an Indian space shuttle. Some even suggest naming it “Kalaamyaan” after the legendary scientist APJ Abdul Kalaam.

Lost amidst the din and noise of jubilation is the cautious optimism of ISRO that stays clear of adjectives and self-adulation, simply stating that the test is but a technology demonstration and nothing more than an initial test. For instance, Dr. K Sivan, director of ISRO’s Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC), states, “What we do now is only a demonstration. It is no way near to the real RLV. It is like a drop test to bring back a launched vehicle to some point. It is just a baby step towards the giant leap.” On the other hand, Jitendra Singh, India’s Minister of State in the Prime Minister’s Office said in March 2015, “Development of RLV is a technical challenge and it involves development of cutting edge technologies. The magnitude of cost reduction depends on development and realization of fully reusable launch vehicle and its degree of reusability.”

Tempering hype with reality

India is inherently multi-cultural and, unlike any other nation, every month, if not week, is witness to some kind of festival. While the cultural proclivity to celebrate has its uses, premature jubilation and hype also carries the hazard of raising expectations unreasonably. Hence, it augurs well for India to temper hype with reality.

Simply put, the test does not herald the addition of an Indian Space Shuttle to ISRO’s inventory straightaway; it only marks the beginning of a technically challenging endeavor. Actual operations of such a vehicle is at least a decade away and that is the stark reality. Contrary to popular belief, the commercial meter does not start clicking straightaway, and no RLVs will be launching and gliding back ever so frequently come June 2016.

In order to be more reasonable in our expectations of the Indian RLV, it is essential to briefly examine the program. The May 2016 test of the RLV-TD is part of a series of technology demonstration missions that are the initial steps to developing a two-stage-to-orbit (TSTO) fully reusable vehicle. In this preliminary suborbital mission, a double-delta winged vehicle that more or less resembles an aircraft launched from the Sriharikota High Altitude Range (SHAR) atop a two-stage Rohini sounding rocket. The 6.5 meter-long vehicle, weighing 1.75 tonnes, flew to an altitude of about 65 kilometers before descending to land at a particular point on the sea.

The winged RLV-TD has been configured to act as a flying testbed to evaluate various technologies using air-breathing propulsion. These technologies will be developed in phases through a series of experimental flights. The first is a Hypersonic Experiment (HEX) flight, followed by the Landing Experiment (LEX), Return Flight Experiment (REX), and Scramjet Propulsion Experiment (SPEX). It is here that ISRO’s assertion needs attention: as per ISRO, the May test is but a baby step and not a giant leap or a Hanuman leap. The HEX flight was intended to serve to:

Demonstrate capability of HEX vehicle to survive atmospheric re-entry.
Qualify and validate the aerodynamic design characteristics during hypersonic flight.
Qualify and validate the avionics, aerodynamic control, and guidance systems.
Characterize induced loads during hypersonic re-entry into the atmosphere.
Assess thermal protection systems like performance of materials like the carbon fiber used in construction of the nose of the vehicle.
Demonstrate mission management competencies like first stage separation sequencing.
Demonstrate competency of recovery of the HEX vehicle from sea.

Thus, the primary emphasis in the May 2016 HEX flight is on assessment of the hypersonic aerodynamic characteristics, thermal management, autonomous mission management and ability to land at a specific location.

Landing and recovery though part of the test are not the prime elements. With regards to recovery experiments, ISRO already has demonstrated capabilities. This will be ISRO’s third effort to recover a spacecraft after launch and evaluate the re-entry characteristics. The first was the unmanned 555-kilogram Space Capsule Recovery Experiment (SRE-1), which was launched on January 10, 2007 by a PSLV and recovered on January 22. The second was the Crew Module Atmospheric Re-entry Experiment (CARE), launched on board the maiden flight of the GSLV Mark 3 on December 18, 2014. After a 19-minute flight, the uncrewed module splashed down in the Bay of Bengal and was recovered by the coast guard and handed over to ISRO.

The experience and knowledge gained by the SRE-1 and CARE missions will be used for the human spaceflight program. While the RLV-TD flight has nothing to do with human missions, the experiment has great utility and hence the landing tests would add to competencies of ISRO. Nonetheless, the landing experiments (LEX) phase is yet to follow. Quite clearly, what is planned for May is but the first small step in a series of tests. One needs to be cognizant of the challenges inherent in the endeavor before prematurely raising expectations to the same levels as the American Space Shuttle.

Comparisons with the US Space Shuttle


In retrospect, the US Space Shuttle is also far from a grand success. Both its performance and cost have been subject to intense criticism. The US, for instance, spent an estimated $192 billion on the shuttle program from 1971 to 2010. The average cost per launch works out to $1.2 billion, which is as much as the total annual Indian space budget. It is a costly experiment that India can ill-afford.

On the other hand, India’s endeavor is challenging in that spaceplanes have not met with much success elsewhere. For example, the Hermes spaceplane, a collaborative effort of the French space agency CNES and the European Space Agency, was approved in November 1987 but cancelled in 1992 as it suffered numerous delays and funding problems. The HOPE-X of the Japanese Space Agency was started in the 1980s, but was scrapped in 2003 for a variety of reasons, mainly financial. The Soviet Union started Buran in 1974 in response to the Space Shuttle program. It completed one unmanned orbital spaceflight in 1988 before it was cancelled in 1993.

The Space Shuttle flew from 1981 to 2011 covering a total of 135 missions. Despite its numerous achievements, like launching satellites and repairing the Hubble Space Telescope, the feeling among NASA officials and space experts was that the shuttle failed to achieve its promised cost and utility goals. Another major criticism was that it failed to lower the cost of access to space. An analysis showed that the incremental per-pound launch costs turned to be higher than those of regular expendable rockets.

Thus, elevating India’s May 2016 RLV-TD test to the same level as the shuttle prior to the launch is premature and inappropriate. Equally so is the comparison considering that:

The RLV-TD is but a test and the Space Shuttle was a fully operational vehicle.
The RLV is yet to demonstrate landing and reuse capability akin to the Space Shuttle.
The Indian RLV is being designed to launch payloads/satellites into space and not for carrying humans into space like the Space Shuttle. India has no space station and hence the requirement of a human-certified serospace plane is some time away.
The cost differences in the projects are phenomenal: the RLV test costs 950 million rupees (US$14 million), while the overall shuttle program cost the US $192 billion.

Many other huge differences exist between the two, and thus it’s essential to perceive the RLV in light of its own competencies and unique Indian purpose, rather than draw unfair comparisons with the Space Shuttle.

The distinct gains of the Indian RLV

Development and operations of an Indian RLV makes more sense when viewed in light of India’s quest of using space for national growth and civil development. A human rating for the RLV, or using it for crewed missions, would be quite some time away, but the RLV certainly has enormous uses to plug gaps in Earth observation and communications. It also has enormous dividends when viewed in light of India’s growing competencies in miniaturization, nanotechnologies, and microsatellites. India has already demonstrated the ability for microsatellite launches in multiple orbits and, coupled with RLV capabilities, the gains for the country are enormous. The commercial gains are also extremely significant. India already boasts of highly affordable and reliable launch capabilities in the international market. An RLV should take India’s capabilities and competencies much higher.

Overall, disassociating expectations from the Space Shuttle and viewing the RLV in a uniquely Indian context makes more sense.
While celebrating success, it augurs well for the country to not lose sight of the original developmental vision of the doyen of the Indian space program, Shri Vikram Sarabhai: “Our vision is to harness space technology for national development, while pursuing space science research and planetary exploration.” With development, pride automatically accrues and hence we need to perceive the RLV as symbolic of national development.

Kiran Krishnan Nair is a Senior Research Fellow at the Centre for Airpower Studies in New Delhi, India.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by sum »

RLV covered in Ars-Technica but as usual, some comments start on "1 Billion poor", "Caste system" and it goes downhill. Though good to see lots of misinformation being junked by the desis in the comments:
India’s shuttle-like reusable spaceplane makes its first test flight
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by rahulm »

Indeed, thank you. India is running 2 SSTO programmes - one by DRDO - AVATAR and one by ISRO.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by sooraj »

Mission success to hasten India's RLV programme
We've got to do a re-think now (about the next step). A ditto repetition of this mission need not be undertaken again. It has been a complete success, Dr K Sivan, director, Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC), told Express.
However, many more technologies have to be developed. They include landing gear for the vehicle to land on an airstrip and more advanced thermal protection systems, he said. ISRO has already announced plans for an airstrip at the Satish Dhawan Space Centre, Sriharikota (SDSC-SHAR).
Senior hands involved in the RLV-TD project also hinted that the space agency, buoyed by Monday's triumph, is likely to launch work on the full-fledged RLV, while parallelly conducting the required experimental missions. Everything went off perfectly. We have satellite images on the landing in the sea, RLV-TD project director Shyam Mohan said.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by sooraj »

Runway for space shuttle coming up at Sriharikota
A 5-km runway is coming-up at the nation's spaceport, Sriharikota, to facilitate the landing of Reusable Launch Vehicle (RLV), which is under development.
ISRO sources told Express that a site has already been identified near the Augumented Satellite Launch Vehilce (ASLV) complex. ASLV is now non-operational.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by symontk »

Guntur's space page mentions the launch as RLV-SB, anyone know the origin for the name?
They have got a better photo for RLV too
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

ISRO’s quest for a space shuttle - The Hindu
The test flight of the RLV-TD on Monday represented the first step towards the ISRO programme to master the reusable launch vehicle technology.

Termed the Hypersonic Flight Experiment, it was the first of a sequence of four test flights to validate various technologies. Designed and developed by Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC) at a cost of Rs. 95 crore, the RLV-TD weighing 1.75 tonnes used a thermal protection system (TPS) including 600 heat-resistant silica tiles and a Carbon-Carbon nose cap to withstand the high temperature during atmospheric re-entry.

The first Indian aircraft structure to fly up to Mach 5, the double delta wing RLV posed a challenge for VSSC engineers to manage the high instability of a winged body mounted on a booster rocket during launch. The design of the air frame, development of mono propellant thrusters for guidance and control and advanced avionics for mission management were other challenges.

The new developments for RLV-TD include the composite movable fin, flush air data system to measure the surface pressure on the aircraft, onboard computer, high resolution data acquisition system, lithium ion battery, patch antennas and radar altimeter.

As many as 600 engineers from ISRO centres, National Aerospace Laboratories, IITs and Indian Institute of Science were involved in the development of the RLV-TD over a period of eight years.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28911 »

The HEX series of experiments will be followed by the landing experiment (LEX), return flight experiment and scramjet propulsion experiment (SPEX).

The basic design of a scramjet has already been evolved.

A test launch of the engine aboard a sounding rocket, which will achieve a flight regime of up to Mach 8, will take place some place in June at SHAR, Dr. Sivan said.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 08302.ece#

:eek: :D
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Gagan »

Possible 5Km runway location and orientation on Sriharikota Island. Of course all this is speculative.
Other places are as marked...
Image
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by rahulm »

June should see, in addition to the ATV (Scramjet) test, a PSLV launch. It's been busy this year.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

Wow...I hope the coastguard ships took some pictures of the RLV floating in the high seas. I hope the hindu article means we can forego REX? Hopefully should speed up the TSTO.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by sivab »

[youtube]watch?v=e3K2hg-HUDE[/youtube]

Video from RLVTD onboard camera with launch and stage separation
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28911 »

Will ISRO release any video or photos of RLV landing/splashdown?

Someone please file a PIL, RTI :(( :(( :(( :(( :((
Last edited by member_28911 on 24 May 2016 22:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_23370 »

Surely Coastguard would have a photu??
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by suryag »

Weren't the carbon/silicon tiles tested on SRE
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by vdutta »

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Gagan »

Kya yaar,
ISRO needs to install GoPro cameras and telecast these live for all launches already!
That camera on the RLV was pretty low res it seems
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Thats pretty awesome launch footage!! Be great if they got the landing on video as well.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SriKumar »


In above video (a combo of 4 videos with different camera angles), in the second one, there is continuous call out of 'yaw normal' for a good minute of ascent. In the third video, 'pitch normal' is called out every 2-3 seconds, again for a good minute (range safety perhaps). A very tense and complex launch.

The video below (originally from ISRO website) shows the actual flight profile. There is a plateau in the flight profile where the craft flies horizontally, for about 1 minute. Altitude is steady at about 26 km, it even gains altitude. I think this is the height of the virtual runway (it was reported in some paper that it was 10 km, but this is the real deal).
The total length of the flight path was reported to be about 450 km. If the flight profile scale is correct, then one can gather a rough idea of how much distance it stayed level (and therefore its speed, if the timescale is correct).
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

The virtual runway was 5 meters above the sea as per reports.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by disha »

Completely quoting the article in full
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: ISRO officials called Monday’s Reusable Launch Vehicle-Technology Demonstrator (RLV-TD) mission such a complete success that it would hasten India’s RLV programme.

Earlier, the space agency had tentatively lined up three more RLV-TD missions to test ‘landing’ on land (Monday’s mission glided into the Bay of Bengal), return flight and scramjet propulsion. “We’ve got to do a re-think now (about the next step). A ditto repetition of this mission need not be undertaken again. It has been a complete success,” Dr K Sivan, director, Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC), told ‘Express’.

“However, many more technologies have to be developed. They include landing gear for the vehicle to land on an airstrip and more advanced thermal protection systems,” he said. ISRO has already announced plans for an airstrip at the Satish Dhawan Space Centre, Sriharikota (SDSC-SHAR).

Senior hands involved in the RLV-TD project also hinted that the space agency, buoyed by Monday’s triumph, is likely to launch work on the full-fledged RLV, while parallelly conducting the required experimental missions. “Everything went off perfectly. We have satellite images on the landing in the sea,” RLV-TD project director Shyam Mohan said.

ISRO’s plan is to have a full-fledged RLV - which can carry payloads to space and return to earth ready for the next flight - by 2020. The USP of an RLV is that launch costs can be slashed from the present US $25,000 per kg to as much as US $1000 per kg.
If the underlined quote is true., then it does point to my thinking expressed earlier here:
disha wrote: Next they should borrow the landing gear from NLCA, retrofit on to the RLV. Add an engine for thrust maneuvering and skip the LEX and go straight to REX. And also scale up in the process., next one should be straight away 6x bigger and also launch on a heavier booster. ...
...
Point is., this project must be scaled up fast.
Eventual goal for ISRO is reduce the cost to 1/10th or 80% - whichever way one calculates. RLV must be considered successful even if reduces the cost to 1/3rd of the original or 30% - whichever way one calculates!

Regarding Pallav Bagla's interview with Dr. K. Sivan ( I would give Pallav Bagla only 5 out of 10 points )., if one notices there is significant cost and delay in assembling the avionics (also risk!). One person is doing a read out., second person is assembling and a third person is keeping an eye over it - in spite of the sockets designed such a way that they will fit only to their counterpart!!

Recovering the avionics intact is a big deal. So one assembles and tests the avionics once and reuses it. With such a reuse (say creating a fleet of some 40 RLVs) one can as well create a PCB for the avionics!

Second., recovering the engines (of course). The engines were put on shuttle with the tank feeding it and the tank was discarded. And they still had to rely on SRBs for 80% of the thrust (which is another story).

I think ISRO should have two design options for RLV. One with scramjet and another without scramjet. Of course scramjet is the holy grail., but a cargo shuttle without scramjet still will be able to carry 1-1.5 Tonne payload to LEO/MEO at around 1/3rd the cost. The orbiter itself can be a wing'ed body or a non-winged "cylinder" with ability to enter back the atmosphere and recoverable via parachutes/air bags or retro rockets.

Regarding the "wing" part of the vehicle., the apprehensions if there are any during launch is uncalled for. Saturn V was 10m wide at the base. Space Shuttle had a wingspan of @24m. Both of them flew.
disha
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by disha »

prasannasimha wrote:The virtual runway was 5 meters above the sea as per reports.
Exactly., 5 mts above MSL -

also will account for any waves etc. Again the "virtual runway" was to test the parameters of the RLV when it comes for landing. Even if the RLV misses by say 30 mts. the center of runway or false short by say 30 mts. - it will be a disaster. Hence what better way to test the control laws other than land it on water in a known location?
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If jingoes watch the video carefully., the HEX experiment ended at the end of the hypersonic ballistic flight segment and not the horizontal glide., that was additional (bonus)

For RLV., the glide to descent ratios will be different in Hypersonic, Supersonic and Subsonic regimes. The later part can be tested in a drop test from a plane (or in subsonic wind tunnels)., it is the hypersonic (and to a small degree supersonic) regimes that ISRO needed the data and simulate its control laws.

The height and the mach number was carefully chosen to get the maximum data., for example moving the wings require specialized hydraulic pumps which can operate at high altitudes under maximum aero-thermodynamic pressures.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by SriKumar »

The virtual runway was 5 meters above the sea as per reports.
any link for this?

The ISRO video showed the HEX experiment ending at 26 km, several seconds after it comes to that altitude. The term 'End of mission' pops up on the screen at 1:47 in the video. If so, the virtual runway 'landing' is not a part of the official mission?
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Post by juvva »

From the video the craft seems to have landed short of intended range. Maybe the glide model for the subsonic part requires some tweaking.

edit: corrected spelling for glide.
Last edited by juvva on 25 May 2016 10:26, edited 1 time in total.
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