Indian Space Programme Discussion

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Prem » 29 May 2016 06:08

ISRO gears up for next shuttle mission ; RLV-TD will now land on runway

http://www.defencenews.in/article/ISRO- ... unway-5478

The next test of the Reusable Launch Vehicle Technology Demonstrator (RLV-TD) will be to land the aerospace vehicle in a runway when it returns from space, said K Sivan, Director of Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).On return from space, the RLV-TD landed at the precise location in the sea, but got disintegrated. However, the next test is to fully get back the RLV-TD and make it land in a 5-km runway to be built at SHAR, Sriharikota, he said.A large amount of data has been collected from RLV-TD, a project initiated in 2003. It will be analysed, and if fully satisfied, ISRO will go ahead with the next stage of testing, he said without giving a time frame.There will be different levels of tests and demonstrations in the next 10-15 years, before a full fledged RLV is developed. For instance, the energy to be dissipated on re-entry is large resulting in extreme heat due to aero-dynamic drag experienced by RLV (1,800 k surface temperature). The re-entry module must land on a pre-designated landing site without disintegrating due to extreme decelerating loads.
The RLV would launch spacecraft, including satellites, into space and re-enter the earth’s atmosphere withstanding extreme pressure and heat conditions and land in an intended spot.In future, there is going to be a huge demand for ISRO to launch satellites – around 60 in the next five years. This requires RLV, which can return to earth after inserting the payload in to the designated orbit and can be re-used with minor refurbishment. This will ensure fast turnaround time between launches, he said.While the VSSC designed, conceptualised and tested the RLV-TD, which costs around ₹95 crore, some of the work, including fabrication, was done by private companies, he said.The US and Russia have developed RLV while Japan has tested a portion of the RLV. The RLV-TD was only one-sixth the size of RLV, he said.ISRO’s focus has been mainly on expendable launch systems such as PSLV, GSLV, GSLV-Mk-III and hybrid launch system, which is partly re-usable like Space Shuttle. These systems are expensive to produce and incur high rates per launch.To break even, the RLV should be used 30-40 times. However, ‘our target’ is to use the RLV for nearly 100 times. We will then spend only 20 per of the present cost, which will be a substantial saving,” he said.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby disha » 29 May 2016 09:57

^^ Just a quick note: As envisaged they are planning to skip LEX and go right into REX (HEX- Hypersonic Experiment., LEX - Landing Experiment., REX - Return Experiment). So in this one test they got HEX/LEX data and jump to REX.

RLV-TD is becoming X-37B equivalent!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby RonyKJ » 29 May 2016 20:28

RLV-TD is becoming X-37B equivalent!


Not so fast! RLV-TD is still sub-orbital while X-37B is orbital.
The task of returning to land on a runway from orbit will be a lot
more challenging, but agreed that this is very exciting.
In my opinion the RLV-TD should continue as its own programme
toward becoming a X-37B equivalent for military purposes while
the 6 times larger RLV should have its own program and become
the shuttle equivalent. Its great that the 1/6th scale RLV-TD can
provide data for both programs at the design stage.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby chaitanya » 31 May 2016 20:42

Gurus, I have a (sort of) random question...

Is there any room for improving upon the PSLV design to increase payload? Can weight be shaved anywhere with better materials etc. Just wondering if we can expect the payload to increase - if it did, would it make ISRO/PSLV the go-to vehicle globally for lower weight satellites? I was thinking about this as a means for ISRO to really bootstrap a commercial launching industry. Sorry if its a stupid question!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 31 May 2016 21:21

^Optimization is a big thing and requires a lot of work. They would have run quite a few simulations. One thing is it is not just about optimization wrt payload etc but also costs for eg full composite casing would be more efficient but the cost of this would be very high offsetting the advantage.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Prem » 01 Jun 2016 06:51

A good Video on RLV


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby RonyKJ » 01 Jun 2016 07:02

Is there any room for improving upon the PSLV design to increase payload?


PSLV started out with design payload of 1 ton. First launch was only about 600 kg and it kept
on increasing once confidence was gained. Components that were over designed were trimmed
to lower factors of safety. Propellant loading in strap on motors and third stage were increased
considerably and now the capability has far exceeded the design. PSLV now can launch
almost 1.6 t. I don't think there is room to grow any more.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 01 Jun 2016 07:24

PSLV-XL can launch 1.8 tonne. There was supposed to be a PSLV-HP version that could launch 2 tonnes but no idea what happened to it. Of course they could simply use GSLV-II at that point.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby symontk » 01 Jun 2016 08:12

I think they might use the satellite propulsion to be used in Chandrayaan - 2 to be used as 4th stage of PSLV. That might increase the payload capacity. Lets see when that happens.

Otherwise they have to extend the 2nd stage to L-60, but length might be problem as it might exceed design limits

or they can use the S200 stage in PSLV instead of S-139.

A combination of above all should substantially increase the payload capacity

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 01 Jun 2016 18:54

"Spaceflight Now", a respected, credible news source, is sticking to the June 10th launch date for PSLV/Cartosat 2C. By now, they would have heard of the ISRO representative mention an end-of-month launch. So why haven't they changed their info? Unless the ISRO rep was misquoted/misunderstood by the Indian newspapers.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 02 Jun 2016 04:00

There was a notice to airmen ( NOTAM ) issued on 6th May about a danger zone around SHAR starting 10th Jun.
But it was withdrawn on 30th May.

So postponement seems to be certain.

With so many satellites from various agencies delay is possible.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 02 Jun 2016 17:07

Spaceflight now has updated their information, with the launch at the end of the month. Must have seen my post :-)

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby juvva » 03 Jun 2016 07:27

Deccan chronicle is reporting new launch date as June 20th.

http://epaper.deccanchronicle.com/artic ... id=5544591

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_29350 » 03 Jun 2016 21:32


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 04 Jun 2016 10:03

ISRO now looks for satellite system vendors - Madhumathi - The Hindu
National space agency ISRO has called a meeting of suppliers later this month to raise the levels of their contribution to the country’s satellite programme.

The June 23 conference of spacecraft industry suppliers is aimed at helping them to evolve from suppliers of small components to providers of bigger and whole sub-systems and systems, said a senior ISRO official. This, he said, would help the space agency to assemble and launch its spacecraft faster for various national uses.

ISRO Satellite Centre (ISAC) estimates a demand for 71 satellites in the next five years, including the exploratory ones to study Moon and Sun.

The launch vehicle industry contributes in a much larger way, may be to around 90 percent. {wow} We would like the satellite industry also to get closer to that level. The conference will check the pulse of the industry and come out with some solutions,” the official said.

Currently 30-odd Indian spacecraft are in orbit. They belong to communication, Earth observation and navigation genres orbit in space and supporting uses such as broadcasting, communication, Internet, mapping, estimation of natural resources, search and rescue, crop and weather forecasting and location-based services.

ISRO hopes to get entire systems supplied in areas such as telemetry, power systems and satellite control systems; currently vendors supply smaller components of each of these systems.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Prasad » 04 Jun 2016 12:05

Great way for universities and colleges that have and will launch satellites to setup spinoff companies to get into the satellite market.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby schinnas » 04 Jun 2016 12:55

SSridhar-ji,
The approach ISRO has taken has been in terms of incorporating private parties in suppling sub-components and in licenced manufacturing of technology ISRO has perfected. Additionally, ISRO has sought to delink sales and marketing and customer relationship management of its clientele through Antrix for all payload launches. ISRO still manages the overall roadmap, planning, integration, supply chain, logistics, scaling of operations, quality assurance, testing and the actual launch, monitoring and tracking, PR, etc., etc.

Another approach that can be considered is to privatize the entire launch ecosystem and have ISRO use all of its energy towards a much more expanded and larger space program. After leveraging private players to subcontract work for several decades, NASA woke up to the benefits that genuine private competition could provide only recently. While ISRO is miles ahead of other PSUs in its efficiency, when it comes to commercial operations we will see that private players would fare better end to end. Additionally, ISRO is also either assisted or bottle-necked by the government of the day and its speed in decision making and interference (both positive and negative).

While it is a good sign that upto 90% of launch vechicle components are made by private parties, that is very different from true privatization which is needed.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby fanne » 04 Jun 2016 16:19

Why fix if it ain't broken!!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 04 Jun 2016 22:18

This "If it is private it is a panacea" should stop.If the PSU does well privatize. If it doesn't do well privatize.That isn't the solution to everything.
Last edited by member_28108 on 05 Jun 2016 08:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 05 Jun 2016 04:54

ISRO is looking to sort of 'outsource' the routine launch process.

It is because it can't handle the volume of task if the number of launches is required to be increased. But you can't add manpower/facilities for this 'transitional' spurt which we don't know will last how long.
(The routine launch process is so repetitive that even we - the external observers - are now a days feel a sort of bored to view the same grind in every PSLV launch and hence we are looking for new stints like GSLV, RLV etc. ) BTW it was felt a few years ago that we WILL get a few launch requests - from some needy friends, not more.

Is it really the low cost that is attracting the operators to ISRO or is it because currently other launch facilities ( for small payloads ) are not accepting immediate future launches?

There may not be sufficient extra manpower to handle this spike. Already there had been manpower audit reviews in last couple of decades to identify the areas where there was flab in manpower and there were restructuring in the management of various divisions to spread the workload/manpower evenly.

Also a few posts were identified long back which needed not be filled up after the first gen employees retired on superannuation because a permanent employee attracts long term weights of perks during and post service.

Several routine operational manpower and even processes were passed on to private entities.

In a similar fashion they may be looking to outsource routine launches to those who are capable of doing it.

We should also not forget that ISRO is not a PSU looking to demonstrate profits. There is no such mandate. If it was so then there is a a possibility to increase the launch fee by at least 10 to 20 percent. ( This statement has no reference to Prasannasimha ji's post above )

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby srai » 07 Jun 2016 02:55

Looks like soon Indian spacecraft industry will have Tier-1 level manufactures/suppliers, where they have the ability to supply entire components like boosters or various rocket stages. ISRO would then limit itself to final integration and launches.

SSridhar wrote:ISRO now looks for satellite system vendors - Madhumathi - The Hindu
National space agency ISRO has called a meeting of suppliers later this month to raise the levels of their contribution to the country’s satellite programme.

[b]The June 23 conference of spacecraft industry suppliers is aimed at helping them to evolve from suppliers of small components to providers of bigger and whole sub-systems and systems
, said a senior ISRO official. This, he said, would help the space agency to assemble and launch its spacecraft faster for various national uses.

ISRO Satellite Centre (ISAC) estimates a demand for 71 satellites in the next five years, including the exploratory ones to study Moon and Sun.
[/b]
The launch vehicle industry contributes in a much larger way, may be to around 90 percent. {wow} We would like the satellite industry also to get closer to that level. The conference will check the pulse of the industry and come out with some solutions,” the official said.

Currently 30-odd Indian spacecraft are in orbit. They belong to communication, Earth observation and navigation genres orbit in space and supporting uses such as broadcasting, communication, Internet, mapping, estimation of natural resources, search and rescue, crop and weather forecasting and location-based services.

ISRO hopes to get entire systems supplied in areas such as telemetry, power systems and satellite control systems; currently vendors supply smaller components of each of these systems.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_20292 » 07 Jun 2016 08:24

1. Can Injuns living in India make spacecraft like Mr. Musk can? Why or why not?
2. Can private individuals make aircraft and fly them?
Last edited by hnair on 07 Jun 2016 13:50, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Do not drag in SpaceX topic to ISRO thread. This time a warning, but no more warnings shall be issued in future

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby TSJones » 07 Jun 2016 11:58

mahadevbhu wrote:1. Can Injuns living in India make spacecraft like Mr. Musk can? Why or why not?
2. Can private individuals make aircraft and fly them?


you're comparing apples to oranges.......

the US has a very long history of industrialists supplying goods and services to the government. It goes back almost 200 years with various firearms production and infrastructure creation such as canals and railroads and shipbuilding. this came to a stunning behemoth during WW2 with logistics created unsurpassed by any other country.

all of this evolved into a public/private partnership called the MIC during the cold war which President Eisenhower warned about the evils there of.

yes, there was abuse of the public interest and the American taxpayer, but in return we got a high tech mother lode which persists decades after WW2 ended.

all of this is off topic to this thread, but you asked for the comparison.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby srai » 07 Jun 2016 13:10

mahadevbhu wrote:1. Can Injuns living in India make spacecraft like Mr. Musk can? Why or why not?
2. Can private individuals make aircraft and fly them?


The aerospace ecosystem (Tier-1 through Tier-3 level) in India is being created through the development and production of LCA, ALH, IJT, HTT-40, RTA etc. and ISRO rockets. It is just at the beginning so to speak when you compare with established Western nations, who have been building aero-planes for the past 80+ years. So for an Indian Mr. Musk to emerge, I would think it would take at least another 20-years or so.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby vina » 07 Jun 2016 13:46

mahadevbu wrote:1. Can Injuns living in India make spacecraft like Mr. Musk can? Why or why not?
2. Can private individuals make aircraft and fly them?


1. Yes , Injuns can like Mr Musk, but in the USA! Remember, Mr Musk is NOT American , but rather South African.
2. Yes, in the US.

That is the "secret" of the US. It is an open country and an open society with little hindrance to pursue your dreams and you can give anything a shot.

Same reason , why Injuns can't do it in India, is the same reason why Mr Musk couldnt have done it in South Africa or Europe (or the Europe in N. America, which is called Canad). The paper work alone will take 20 years even if they "let" you do it in the first place.

Same reason, why when faced with high oil prices the US responded by producing record amount of oil (via shale) while in India, the govt increased subsidies and basically bankrupted the country. The "licence" to get a shale well drilled in India would take 25 years , even if the environment ministry's Mantri & Associated Baboons "examined" the matter, came up with a "policy" and gazetted it and laminated and triplicated it after getting it "approved" by the "Director General Of Hydrocarbons" (which by the sound of it sounds like a zoo of brain dead Baboons with a massively inflated sense of self importance.. in short .. Panjandrums) . These things will happen ONLY in the US. Love it or hate it, that is a fact.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby hnair » 07 Jun 2016 13:47

mahadevbhu, I had warned before to not discuss Musk and his doings in this thread. The thread goes straight to massive fan-boi angst against ISRO and that adds too much admin overheads, not to mention the high-decibel :(( :(( :(( . Take it to the International thread. A warning issued

vina, srai and TSJones, desist from answering here.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby nTripathi » 07 Jun 2016 17:49

RonyKJ wrote:
RLV-TD is becoming X-37B equivalent!


Not so fast! RLV-TD is still sub-orbital while X-37B is orbital.
The task of returning to land on a runway from orbit will be a lot
more challenging, but agreed that this is very exciting.
In my opinion the RLV-TD should continue as its own programme
toward becoming a X-37B equivalent for military purposes while
the 6 times larger RLV should have its own program and become
the shuttle equivalent. Its great that the 1/6th scale RLV-TD can
provide data for both programs at the design stage.


I believe HEX and LEX were designed to be suborbital but REX will complete a few orbits... so the next RLV launch should include both orbital flight and solid-surface landing. Not sure about the size though, whether it will be full scale or TD!

Answers about scarmjet development will come only after the air-breathing engine test but I think ISRO will push forward towards developing the TSTO first (by 2020) that too in RLV on top of booster configuration(someone did the calculations for 400Ton assembly too :D )

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Prasad » 07 Jun 2016 21:32

Sounds too much since we're still testing but could this next prototype/td/whatever be also built in mind keeping future unmanned use in mind? A man can hope :)

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby juvva » 08 Jun 2016 08:42

mahadevbhu wrote:1. Can Injuns living in India make spacecraft like Mr. Musk can? Why or why not?
2. Can private individuals make aircraft and fly them?


Well, some young 'uns are trying:

http://bellatrixaerospace.com/

Hope this will turn out to be real hardware, and not just ppt, html,....stuff.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby abhik » 08 Jun 2016 09:02

More than the X-37b, the RLV is more analogous to the DARPA XS-1(or at least some of the participants).

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Neela » 08 Jun 2016 16:33

CSIR- National Aerospace Laboratories Proud to Associate with ISRO’s RLV-TD Success

Doc lists the tests done by NAL for RLV-TD.
Special mention of Tejas CLAW team contributions to RLV-TD Control laws during descent phase.

Also some nuggets here ->Letter of appreciation from ISRO

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Zynda » 08 Jun 2016 17:15

Juvva,
Thx for posting that company. Looks interesting...As you mentioned, most of the team seems to be very young (< 25 years). They seem to have pulled in more experienced folks as members of the advisory board.

One of the dudes:
Nuthan Prasanna (20) :shock: , is a full time Executive Director and Chief Technology Officer (CTO) at Bellatrix Aerospace Pvt. Ltd. He is a mechanical engineer from Vidyavardhaka College of Engineering, Mysore, Karnataka, India. His compatibilities include Automobile Mechanics, Hydraulics, Machine Design, Computer Aided Machine Drawing, Non-Conventional Manufacturing, Unmanned Ground Vehicles, Combat Vehicles, Powered Exoskeletons, Psychology, Military Tactics, Battle Management and Team Management. He is a student member of Society of Automobile Engineers (SAE) India. He is currently working on Unmanned Multi-Platform Ground Combat Vehicle as a project. At Bellatrix Aerospace, he reviews and reports the technology developed, manages all the projects undertaken, and reviews cyber and infrastructure security to make sure the technology stays secure. He ensures that all the defense protocols under Defense Industrial License set up by Ministry of Defense (MOD) are monitored up to mark.


Unless he is a genius (with a lots of hands on experience tinkering, designing & rebuilding mech systems & machines since childhood, I'd be skeptical of his abilities at 20 years of age.

Also, there is no career section. I could not find any jobs from their company currently yet...which tells me that they are prolly in the conception stage. Hope they've got funding...

Hopefully, they'll reach a mature stage.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 08 Jun 2016 20:22

Two very good articles on the RLV-TD from Frontline. The interview with the ISRO chairman sounds more informative from the technological standpoint, though both pieces are good! Please ignore the rest of the issue, which is mostly a one-sided attack on Modi's two years as PM!

http://www.frontline.in/science-and-tec ... epage=true

http://www.frontline.in/science-and-tec ... 7.ece?home

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 08 Jun 2016 20:38

One thing that is not clear, even from the above articles, is, did the RLV disintegrate after floating on the water for a little while, just as it entered the water, or before it even achieved splashdown?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_28108 » 08 Jun 2016 21:09

It was spotted floating and did not disintegrate. It would have sunk after some time. They did not expect the structure to survive after landing as the planned Landing was targeted 5 meters above the water. They may ahve tried to recover it for all you know but that was not planned.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby member_23370 » 08 Jun 2016 21:39

They should have taken pictures. The coastguard could have.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby TSJones » 09 Jun 2016 02:08

http://spacenews.com/satellite-operator ... -proposal/

Satellite operators give negative reviews of Indian regulator’s satellite-TV proposal -

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby vina » 09 Jun 2016 08:36

http://spacenews.com/satellite-operator ... -proposal/

Satellite operators give negative reviews of Indian regulator’s satellite-TV proposal -


Good. So hurting the "oh me hoity toity, we wont export components , like radiation hardened ICs and try cripple the Indian satellite program so that they don't compete with us guys are now howling in pain when the boot is used to administer a couple of swift kicks to their gonads.

This "repointing" business is dirt cheap, will cost less than Rs 50 per dish and of course if many of the DTH operators are giving to MPEG4 boxes for free when they "upgrade" their network from legacy mpeg2 etc ( b.s of course, they are using their spectrum more efficiently with higher compression, and they want you to help them out by moving up), they will do this, especially, if they are threatened with 6% tax using the new "Google" law that Indian recently passed .

The Indian DTH operators wont give a damn. The foreign satellite owners will howl and that in turn will hit the hoity toity satellite manufacturers and the govts that acted like DiX before. Good, Karma is a she-dog and is a good pay back for past "Oh, we wont sell you radiation hardened I.Cs, big sh*t we built or own and bought it from the Frenchies in the meantime , though we had to do a little redesign of our then existing stuff).

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 09 Jun 2016 09:25

Bellatrix Aerospace (India) Private Limited
https://www.facebook.com/bellatrixaerospace/

This is a private company trying to develop space launch vehicles in India and they are also developing electric propulsion systems for satellites

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 09 Jun 2016 11:06

TSJones wrote:http://spacenews.com/satellite-operators-give-negative-reviews-of-indian-regulators-satellite-tv-proposal/

Satellite operators give negative reviews of Indian regulator’s satellite-TV proposal -

Sour grapes.


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