Indian Space Programme Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2014 09:52

matrimc, experiments are for your believes onlee.

you will do a moharram dance in a few years from now when ISROnaut goes to space. eventuality is a given like mars mission.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Dec 2014 09:55

India debuts GSLV Mk.III with prototype crew capsule

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 19 Dec 2014 09:59

nirav wrote: @ the minority manned flight critics : If the manned flight program isn't pursued now, theres a real possibility 20-30 years from now that they would lambast ISRO for not thinking far ahead and under achieving or being "inefficient"

^^ Exactly, there should fingers on all the pies as possible. Also, we must kick start the planetary rovers program.

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 Dec 2014 10:26

matrimc wrote:Well, not all are interested in manned space flights. I may find myself part of a minority set (of at least three - your truly and presumably sanjaykumar, and Bade) but that would not stop me from holding forth my view that manned space flight will go the route of Dodo.

Four! Include me in. I have been consistently saying that all this manned flight stuff is of no use and really a distraction. Can that manned flight bit. Get the launch vehicles efficient and reliable and go after the commercial launch business and corner it and get the cash registers ringing.I already said this once. Leave this moon/manned flight business to NASA and the Chinese and their insecurities. Let us count the cash.

It is exactly for that I maintain that the ISRO reusable fly back boosters are the way to go. For that the best combo is LCH4/LOX stages and hence my misgivings about the Kerosene/LOX that ISRO is going after. ISRO envisages using the Kerosene/LOX in the re-useable stuff, but that will require huge maintenance and inspection and cleaning (Kerosene tends to coke, and you need special grades of kerosene that requires special processing to get the kind of fuel you want). No such problem with LCH4. That is available in plenty commercially, just evaporates leaving no residue and has higher Isp than Kerosene .

The manned space program budget is Rs 12,500 crores. A colossal waste of money. You can develop an LCH4/LOX stage of 2MN rating and close to 375 to 400s Isp in around Rs 1500 to Rs 2000 crores. Save Rs 10,000 crores , pay the ISRO folks a Rs 100 crore bonus and do everyone a favour!

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Dec 2014 11:13

Vina: yes. I remembered and was about to edit my post but you beat me to it. If anymore get added to the unmanned list, a vocal minority becomes a vocal majority.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 19 Dec 2014 11:21

ISRO CARE module

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Dec 2014 11:33

SaiK wrote:matrimc, experiments are for your believes onlee. you will do a moharram dance in a few years from now when ISROnaut goes to space. eventuality is a given like mars mission.

You bet. It will be an hour of lungi dance but still I somehow feel that unmanned is the way to go - more bang for the buck, development of autonomous cybernetics tech, and as vina says, positive cash flow.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 19 Dec 2014 13:08

How is it different from SRE1 which we launched few years ago. SRE came down nose first with inflatable floating bags attached to it. and CARE looks like it came down bottom first without needing external floatation support.

They didnt go ahead with first mode of re-entry? Any reasons

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Dec 2014 13:12

How many succesful LOX methane engines are actually being used as of today?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Dec 2014 15:18

The thing is in the trajectory profile they are giving the estimated /ideal trajectory with no knowledge of previous flight dynamics of this configuration.Also they do not provide error bars for tolerances.At the end of the day the guidance computers would have adjusted the firing of the liquid stage which would corrected any deviations but from the conversation during launch - it was said that the telemetry data may show slight variations well within accepted tolerances but subsequent data showed that they were very much on course.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Dec 2014 15:25

vdutta wrote:How is it different from SRE1 which we launched few years ago. SRE came down nose first with inflatable floating bags attached to it. and CARE looks like it came down bottom first without needing external floatation support.

They didn't go ahead with first mode of re-entry? Any reasons

There are multiple possible reasons
One a cone down landing is not desirable as a blunt edge will allow maximum aerobreaking (blunt body concept) (It is not a missile though SRE1 may have been used to get some data for that).

The landing should be such that the Vyomanauts should be lying on their backs as this provides least stress to the spine and other organs during deceleration

Egress from the capsule and possible drowning will be higher if there is damage to the capsule in a cone down configuration with the astronauts below the water line.

One thing that I gleaned is that the flotation collar is added after landing by the divers around the capsule to stabilize it during the retrieving of the crew and only buoys (the orange balloons in SRE1 or the yellow ones in Apollo are deployed to keep the re ascent after splashing vertical. There are photos of divers applying the flotation collar to ETF1 of the Orion capsule experiment that was done recently.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Dec 2014 15:28

Flotation ring being applied to the ETF1 Orion capsule

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Dec 2014 15:34

Indian coast guard recovering the capsule

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Dec 2014 16:12

matrimc wrote:Vina: yes. I remembered and was about to edit my post but you beat me to it. If anymore get added to the unmanned list, a vocal minority becomes a vocal majority.

"No one will need more than 637 kB of memory for a personal computer"

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 19 Dec 2014 17:52

Austin wrote:India debuts GSLV Mk.III with prototype crew capsule

Cold, matter-of-fact article, written without any enthusiasm, or acknowledgement of challenges faced by ISRO.

Also repeats unreservedly, the idea that the 3rd SLV-3 flight, and the 3rd ASLV mission, were failures, or at least non-successes.

But ISRO itself views them as successful. The NASA writer could have mentioned that, and qualified the statement.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2014 17:55

bill gates' FUD!
everyone's cud.

vdutta, prasannasimha, the first one was not a crew module, but RV test module.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 19 Dec 2014 18:10

Godrej Aerospace to make semi-cryogenic engines.

Godrej Aerospace, a division of Godrej & Boyce Ltd, has been mandated by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) to produce the more powerful and environment-friendly semi-cryogenic engines for it, the company’s Executive Vice-President and Business Head, SM Vaidya told BusinessLine.

Godrej has been supplying the Vikas engines for ISRO’s rockets, including two for the GSLV Mk III that flew today. Vaidya said the company has supplied over a hundred Vikas engines (which are, incidentally, named after Vikram Ambalal Sarabhai, India’s renowned space scientist.)

While cryogenic engines use liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen, semi cryogenic engines (SME) use a combination of liquid oxygen and kerosene.

These engines have been used in American and Russian rockets for long. They powered the Saturn V rockets that took Americans to the moon; the Russian RD-180 engines have been used in Boeing’s Atlas V rockets.

The SME project was approved by the Government of India in January 2009 at a sanctioned cost of ₹1,798 crore. Department of Space’s Outcome Budget for 2014-15 says that the project is “in the initial stages”.

It expects the engine to be fully developed “after six years”.

Till the end of March 2013, ISRO had spent ₹155 crore on the project. Godrej will make six engines for ISRO. Vaidya said the company had begun work on three.

The SME is meant to power the future GSLV Mk III rockets as well as the heavy-life Unified Launch Vehicles, or ULV, which is today only a concept. The ULV will be a modular vehicle where the number of engines used will be based on the weight of the satellite or spacecraft.

The rocket will feature a combination of SME and an Indian cryogenic engine.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Dec 2014 18:33

SaiK wrote:bill gates' FUD!
everyone's cud.

vdutta, prasannasimha, the first one was not a crew module, but RV test module.

Yes of course- forgot to mention that too though the idea was to do testing for it and I suspect also for reentry of other things that enter the atmosphere at high speeds.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Dec 2014 18:34

Godrej has done a lot of work for ISRO as a subcontractor.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 19 Dec 2014 18:53

In 2012, there was an article regarding HAL( Hindustan Aeronautics) delivering the first fully indigenous PSLV fourth stage propellant tank.

The implication obviously, is that previous fourth stage tanks were imported, partly or wholly.

Can anyone confirm that this is the case? Why would ISRO import a smaller propellant tank, for its fourth stage smaller engine and stage, when they were producing larger tanks for the Vikas engines? Does it have to do with a very particular alloy or material?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Dec 2014 19:01

GSLV Module to Adorn Space Museum
By Tiki Rajwi Published: 19th December 2014 06:01 AM Last Updated: 19th December 2014 06:01 AM

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 578307.ece

What the bhen? Care module headed to museum after just one flight !!

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 19 Dec 2014 19:54

From link

It would also enhance India’s capability to be a competitive player in the multi-million dollar commercial launch market.

More competition will only save a lot of money, particularly forex.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 19 Dec 2014 19:56

Manned space missions are a practical nescessity if we intend to build and maintain anything in space. Space stations are only the first baby steps. They will be followed by space factories that will make the ultra-high precision components for future generations of consumer gizmos. These will of course be preceded by military applications as they always have been. A country of 1+ billion cannot afford to lag behind.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 19 Dec 2014 20:10

^^ And some point of time(decades into the future) countries are going to carve up the extra terrestrial resources among themselves. Better to have a toehold in those attempts.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 19 Dec 2014 20:14

I read somewhere that the splashdown was 100 kms away from the CG ship. Hopefully this will be reduced so the next one is within eyesight.

Won't hurt to also put a couple of lifelike dummies in the capsule so the ship crew learn how to handle vayunauts whose bodies will feel as heavy as lead after being in zero gravity.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2014 20:21

CO2->O2 step is important to explore and land on mars!
I can only think about robots for moon. Joining ISS is important step for akasnauts.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Dec 2014 21:12

DRDO @dpidrdo · 1h 1 hour ago

DRDO's Parachute System for recovery of Moon Mission Crew Capsule http://goo.gl/VqnTyW

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Dec 2014 21:42

Actually one can do some amazing things in 640KB. Heck, BG himself wrote a basic interpreter in 4K.

disha · Post by **disha** » 19 Dec 2014 22:58

First of all

Congratulations are in order for ISRO to operationalize the second largest booster in world (until of course NASA catches up).

Congratulations are in order for ISRO to operationalize its first clustered liquid motor engine. If it can solve the equations for 2 it can solve it for N.

Congratulations are in order for ISRO to successfully test CARE. It looks sleek, is a good size, comfortable, modern and not a cut-lip giving tin can copy that our taller than mountains and sweeter than honey neighbours use.

Now for the future of ISRO:

1. ISRO needs to continue manned missions - in 50 years, we will be mining minerals from moon (Helium3).

2. ISRO needs to explore deep space., yes it can and will and must send only robots into deep space - including mars (what is the point of human going to mars?) - however it requires a moon base.

3. ISRO must make this a priority, paint the moon with Indian tri-color - so that bakis when they look at moon curse Indians* (this should surpass anything above in priority)

Anyway.,

1. ISRO does not need Semi Cryo Engines. Unnecessary diversion of attention. Yes it can work on mastering the tech but its main focus should be on TSTO/RLV

I *still* have to complete my writeup on why Semi Cryo engines, but that will come later.

For now, rejoice in ISRO's success.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Dec 2014 02:18

matrimc wrote:Actually one can do some amazing things in 640KB. Heck, BG himself wrote a basic interpreter in 4K.

heap, stack and barrels!? depends on the application context switching, and execution needs. may be enough for dedicated systems, embedded and/or distributed with individual memory capabilities. perhaps entirely need based on the system design.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Dec 2014 03:20

x-post from the video link from intl. thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbRgTRSdBLg#t=104

stop at 2.09, compare burns.. isro one is way too peachy!

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 20 Dec 2014 03:33

prasannasimha wrote:Godrej has done a lot of work for ISRO as a subcontractor.

Godrej used to fabricate Vikas engines components and do final assembly for ISRO at it's PED-Vikhroli campus - might have expanded in to more work now. I tested one big nozzle fabrication weld for defects when working there (non destructive testing FYI), got fingerprints on an assembled engine.

Still remember wasting days and cutting blades to cut a 4 inch bar of special alloys. Don't think we ever made a dime on it, just for pride's sake.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 20 Dec 2014 06:19

pankajs wrote:
DRDO @dpidrdo · 1h 1 hour ago

DRDO's Parachute System for recovery of Moon Mission Crew Capsule http://goo.gl/VqnTyW

So the first Indian manned mission will be a moon shot?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Dec 2014 08:13

So someone on this list was telling why ISRO is not using LOX methane engines etc etc.I wonder still how many operational LOX Methane engines are there actually using this for spaceflight.Current count seems to be zero.(I may be corrected) The ignition sequence of this technology has still been found to be tricky and not yet mastered. Russia had a whole lot of engines they tested wonder why they were not deployed. The US and China are still pursuing this strategy but not a single fully functional deployable engine has been manufactured.There are some models that are being tested. There must be some hiccups and all does not seem hunky dory- theoretically attractive but practically there seems to be some issues or else countries with a lead time of over 60 years are still not using it despite certain benefits like lsp .

Not to say that ISRO should not be working on it (and who knows in their research labs they may be doing that) but as of now it seems it is still not prime time.

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 20 Dec 2014 12:29

Is the stage separation video out yet? Cannot find in isro site.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Dec 2014 14:42

sanjaykumar wrote: I may find myself part of a minority set (of at least three - your truly and presumably sanjaykumar, and Bade) but that would not stop me from holding forth my view that manned space flight will go the route of Dodo

Not a chance-I wanted to be an astronaut at eleven, in some ways I hope I never get any older. Although I am now old enough to know that mankind will go the same way (the dodo) as our mechanical children the cybernauts (in the sense of a digital entity) commit parricide.

I would rather see the earth differently too. Having touched the current programs in meaningful ways, but know that I am grounded. And you are too optimistic sanjaykumar, the clock is too close to midnight for digital entities to emerge.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Dec 2014 22:43

I would get a robot to go out there but get a implant in the brain to seemlesly connect to the robot's 5 senses. Life in the matrix or the world of snow crash - a very post-Gibsonian cyberpunk world sans all those stimulants though.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 21 Dec 2014 01:23

ISRO has a nice new website isro.org I liked the old one, but the new one's really good.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 21 Dec 2014 05:20

Varoon Shekhar wrote:ISRO has a nice new website isro.org I liked the old one, but the new one's really good.

Looks better but has large primary photos so needs a lot of navigation .
Prasanna

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 21 Dec 2014 18:27

Shows integration of various parts of the care module